John Beck: “Zach Wilson needs to reinvent himself”

[56mehl56]

33 minutes ago, fltflo said:

Agree, all one has to do is look at the guy who was drafted right before him. Trevor Lawrence, like Zack had a rough start, but continued to improve with each game he played. So much so that he got his team in his second year,into the playoffs. When you draft a quarterback number two in the first round and that quarterback does not progress you’ve got a serious problem. Zach had the complete attention of the whole coaching staff working with him to improve for his entire tenure with the Jets. Yet, he continue to make the same mistakes over and over again.
Let’s look at some of the main issues


Failure to have learned to step up in the pocket, in the face of the pass rush.

The tendency to panic in the face of the pass rush


The inability to have any continuity in his short passing game. Really the inability to throw a short pass

The lack of touch when called for in his passing game

Guys after two years as a starter, even taking into account the time missed for injuries,we should have seen progress in these areas.

Then you factor in, playing Mike White with all the same challenges Zack faced and suddenly the offense starts to click, that is a huge red flag. Zack is never going to be a FQB for the Jets or any other team. At best he may develop into a competent backup, and to be honest with you, I am not sure he has that in him. I really could see him out of the league within three to five years.




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So switching OC''s and bringing in a HC like Pedersen had nothing to do with TL's ascension. 

[56mehl56]

24 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

It was dumber to play  him right away,

It was dumber to saddle him with an OC and defacto WR/QB coach that had no intentions of helping him evolve as an NFL  QB. 

[56mehl56]

2 hours ago, varjet said:

Let’s look at it another way, the GB Packers think they are geniuses for warehousing Jordan Love and are ready to exercise his 5th year option and have him play this year.   
 

if the Jets were smart and told Woody to let Zach sit and learn for two years, they could be in the same place. 

And if and when Jordan Love bombs , how smart are they going to look, 

[The Crusher]

4 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

It was dumber to saddle him with an OC and defacto WR/QB coach that had no intentions of helping him evolve as an NFL  QB. 

Yep, yep and yep. But I’m not sure even Houdini could have turned him into a NFL QB.

[T0mShane]

7 hours ago, Rangers9 said:

If he’s still on the roster be interesting to see what he does in training camp. 

It will only ever matter what Zach looks like when players are allowed to hit him. They can’t simulate that in camp and you can’t coach courage in the pocket.

[T0mShane]

8 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

It was dumber to saddle him with an OC and defacto WR/QB coach that had no intentions of helping him evolve as an NFL  QB. 

They switched OCs and QB coaches and even those guys have no intention of helping him “evolve” at QB. If they thought they could fix Zach Wilson, they’re not out here buying Derek Carr chicken parm.

[maury77]

The only chance Zach Wilson has at reinventing himself is getting a gig as a backup QB somewhere and balling out when the starter goes down. He's beeen so bad as a pro that I'm highly skeptical that any NFL franchise will voluntarily go into a season with him as a starter. 

[fltflo]

It was dumber to saddle him with an OC and defacto WR/QB coach that had no intentions of helping him evolve as an NFL  QB. 

Again my friend, same system same players same challenges with Mike White and suddenly the offense clicks. An to say they did not want to see him succeed is nonsense. Least you forget ,MLF along with Hogan were the ones who pushed the Jets to draft Wilson. Also who in the hell drafts a QB with the second pick in the first round to want him to fail.


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[SoJetsy]

Maybe this guy is the effin problem, Zach just ain’t built for the NFL.

[SoFlaJets]

Zach better hope and pray that the Jets make it past round 1 of the playoffs next January or he, Saleh, and Fat Joe are all going to be down the road looking for new places of employment. I saw that ESPN had some alternate football league on the TV over my head at my gig last night, which got me thinking that this is the perfect place for Wilson to play, maybe we can trade him for the punter from the Houston Roughnecks

[SoFlaJets]

13 hours ago, Bugg said:

Beginning of his final season at BYU, Wilson was a nobody. At a loss how or why he ascended the Jets' draft board. 

Maybe it was Woody's son who was allowed to make the pick, if not, whoever made that choice should never be allowed anywhere NEAR the Jets draft room ever again

[Rangers9]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

It will only ever matter what Zach looks like when players are allowed to hit him. They can’t simulate that in camp and you can’t coach courage in the pocket.

Look he seemed to run backwards instead of forwards. It added to his ineffectiveness. This plus his inaccuracy in the short passing game which is the mainstay of most NFL offenses. But I never saw any cowardice with Zach. 

[Rangers9]

I kind of don't get the extreme hate for Zach reminds me of the blame game on Fitz in 2015. Maybe this is the way our society operates in sports, politics etc you have to blame someone. 

[thebuzzardman]

2 hours ago, The Crusher said:

Yep, yep and yep. But I’m not sure even Houdini could have turned him into a NFL QB.

To extend the magician metaphor further, if a new OC can turn Zach into a pro QB, that would be like a naked magician pulling a rabbit out of his ass, on stage. 

If David Blaine steals this idea, let me know. 

 

[Warfish]

2 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

I kind of don't get the extreme hate for Zach reminds me of the blame game on Fitz in 2015. Maybe this is the way our society operates in sports, politics etc you have to blame someone. 

Fitz produced the best QB production season since Joe Namath, and the most wins in the past 12 years.

Wilson is currently the 2nd worst QB draft pick in NFL history, based on his production/meltdown/lack of ownership of his play.

I don't see the fan "hate", i.e. analysis, as being the same here.

People disliked Fitz going into 2016 because they saw no future in Old Fitz as a moderately-paid short-term NFL starter, given the "Fitz-cycle", Fitz never making the playoffs at all, and they felt his undeniable production figures in 2015 were purely due to the two WR's he played with (both of whom were out of the NFL ~ a year and half later, not long after the all round Jets 2016 debacle).  If they openly said it or not, all of these folks wanted to go with the younger home-drafted Geno Smith as their guy (only those two options realistically existed at that time, going into 2016, after what happened in 2015).

Zach, on the other hand, has just failed to produce completely.  The team has won in spite of his extremely low production at QB, but Zach has produced two partial (due to injury x2, and meltdown x1) seasons, putting up some of the lowest production from such a high pick in NFL history.  It's basically Akili Smith, then Zach and Ryan Leaf, then the rest of QB bust history. That is the neighborhood he resides in at current.  The entire debate about Zach, such as it remains, remains about "potential", as there simply is no debate about his actual play.

In both vases, the criticism is not "hate".  It's analysis.  I really wish people would stop using "hate" as shorthand for engaging in critical thinking, as the two are just not the same.  I have no hate, or any other personal feelings, about Zach Wilson.  I care about the Jets, and in my analysis, he was a poor pick, has been a poor player, and the team will be better off once he is gone.  We almost couldn't do worse at this point, barring a comeback miracle of historic proportions.

[fltflo]

I kind of don't get the extreme hate for Zach reminds me of the blame game on Fitz in 2015. Maybe this is the way our society operates in sports, politics etc you have to blame someone. 

I don’t think there is actually any hate for Zack, he is just not an answer to any question the Jets may have to answer in the future


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[Rangers9]

32 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Fitz produced the best QB production season since Joe Namath, and the most wins in the past 12 years.

Wilson is currently the 2nd worst QB draft pick in NFL history, based on his production/meltdown/lack of ownership of his play.

I don't see the fan "hate", i.e. analysis, as being the same here.

People disliked Fitz going into 2016 because they saw no future in Old Fitz as a moderately-paid short-term NFL starter, given the "Fitz-cycle", Fitz never making the playoffs at all, and they felt his undeniable production figures in 2015 were purely due to the two WR's he played with (both of whom were out of the NFL ~ a year and half later, not long after the all round Jets 2016 debacle).  If they openly said it or not, all of these folks wanted to go with the younger home-drafted Geno Smith as their guy (only those two options realistically existed at that time, going into 2016, after what happened in 2015).

Zach, on the other hand, has just failed to produce completely.  The team has won in spite of his extremely low production at QB, but Zach has produced two partial (due to injury x2, and meltdown x1) seasons, putting up some of the lowest production from such a high pick in NFL history.  It's basically Akili Smith, then Zach and Ryan Leaf, then the rest of QB bust history. That is the neighborhood he resides in at current.  The entire debate about Zach, such as it remains, remains about "potential", as there simply is no debate about his actual play.

In both vases, the criticism is not "hate".  It's analysis.  I really wish people would stop using "hate" as shorthand for engaging in critical thinking, as the two are just not the same.  I have no hate, or any other personal feelings, about Zach Wilson.  I care about the Jets, and in my analysis, he was a poor pick, has been a poor player, and the team will be better off once he is gone.  We almost couldn't do worse at this point, barring a comeback miracle of historic proportions.

Part of our culture is the blame game you see it every day on national news and in politics and sports. It simplifies things. As for Zach some of fan reactions imo are extreme. Losing 6 in a row not all on him. Being in a position to exceed expectations earlier in the season he was a part of that too. Imo he’s not the 2nd worst QB ever drafted. The jury’s still out on him. 

[peekskill68]

2 hours ago, T0mShane said:

They switched OCs and QB coaches and even those guys have no intention of helping him “evolve” at QB. If they thought they could fix Zach Wilson, they’re not out here buying Derek Carr chicken parm.

I'm gonna have to disagree on this one.  Nothing suggests the owner, GM or HC have given up on Zach.  Right or wrong, I believe they've convinced themselves the problem was coaching and have every intention of sticking it out with him.  Another reason why I feel a Rodgers/Tannehill bridge is more probable than a longer term commitment to Carr/Garoppolo.

[Integrity28]

The Jets will be going after a QB to be the centerpiece of a post-season push… all of the ZW excuse-making and make pretend crap can stop now. For a multitude of reasons, he sucks. It doesn’t matter now who gets blamed. It matters how they pivot successfully to the new QB. 

Contractually, Zach is fine to stay on the team in a developmental capacity. Leave it as that. Nobody actually knows or cares what the circumstances will be in 2 years. 

[section314]

42 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Fitz produced the best QB production season since Joe Namath, and the most wins in the past 12 years.

Wilson is currently the 2nd worst QB draft pick in NFL history, based on his production/meltdown/lack of ownership of his play.

I don't see the fan "hate", i.e. analysis, as being the same here.

People disliked Fitz going into 2016 because they saw no future in Old Fitz as a moderately-paid short-term NFL starter, given the "Fitz-cycle", Fitz never making the playoffs at all, and they felt his undeniable production figures in 2015 were purely due to the two WR's he played with (both of whom were out of the NFL ~ a year and half later, not long after the all round Jets 2016 debacle).  If they openly said it or not, all of these folks wanted to go with the younger home-drafted Geno Smith as their guy (only those two options realistically existed at that time, going into 2016, after what happened in 2015).

Zach, on the other hand, has just failed to produce completely.  The team has won in spite of his extremely low production at QB, but Zach has produced two partial (due to injury x2, and meltdown x1) seasons, putting up some of the lowest production from such a high pick in NFL history.  It's basically Akili Smith, then Zach and Ryan Leaf, then the rest of QB bust history. That is the neighborhood he resides in at current.  The entire debate about Zach, such as it remains, remains about "potential", as there simply is no debate about his actual play.

In both vases, the criticism is not "hate".  It's analysis.  I really wish people would stop using "hate" as shorthand for engaging in critical thinking, as the two are just not the same.  I have no hate, or any other personal feelings, about Zach Wilson.  I care about the Jets, and in my analysis, he was a poor pick, has been a poor player, and the team will be better off once he is gone.  We almost couldn't do worse at this point, barring a comeback miracle of historic proportions.

You make a compelling case , no doubt. My question is still.....if Zach is just as horrible as he has shown, then why did two of the 3 best organizations in the NFL( SF and Philly) offer JD mucho picks to trade up to draft him? Seems to me that had the Jets done what they have done/are doing now with the coaching hires and going to get a vet QB two years ago, we are having a much different conversation about Zach. 

[Rangers9]

Zach had two monumentally bad games in 2022. But he played ok in other games and was starting QB in five of our 7 Ws. He has to get some credit for those wins it wasn’t all because of Breece Hall. He also came close to leading a comeback vs the Lions esp on that last drive. It wasn’t all bad. If you look at other QBs in the NFL last year it was an off season for the QB position. That includes Rodgers and Carr. 

[56mehl56]

3 hours ago, T0mShane said:

They switched OCs and QB coaches and even those guys have no intention of helping him “evolve” at QB. If they thought they could fix Zach Wilson, they’re not out here buying Derek Carr chicken parm.

If they thought they could survive with another 5 to 7 win season they possibly would have stuck with ZW. Carr or AR is the insurance plan to get JD and Saleh a few more seasons. 

[56mehl56]

2 hours ago, fltflo said:

Again my friend, same system same players same challenges with Mike White and suddenly the offense clicks. An to say they did not want to see him succeed is nonsense. Least you forget ,MLF along with Hogan were the ones who pushed the Jets to draft Wilson. Also who in the hell drafts a QB with the second pick in the first round to want him to fail.


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Mike White was drafted in 2018 he's had the benefit of multiple training camps where he could sit and learn w/o carrying the starters workload. His experience gave him a leg up on ZW who was feeling the pressure from day 1 to be the man.  MW  had nothing to lose , he's a backup who was playing with house money , and yes he had a few good games mixed in with some very poor ones as well. 

imo the fact that MW ran the offense better than ZW is just as much an indictment on MLF as it is on ZW himself. 

[56mehl56]

23 minutes ago, section314 said:

You make a compelling case , no doubt. My question is still.....if Zach is just as horrible as he has shown, then why did two of the 3 best organizations in the NFL( SF and Philly) offer JD mucho picks to trade up to draft him? Seems to me that had the Jets done what they have done/are doing now with the coaching hires and going to get a vet QB two years ago, we are having a much different conversation about Zach. 

And again I'll say it wasn't a bad idea to start ZW from day one as that was a lost season anyways. The team had changes and new faces everywhere so the experience should have been a good foundation. However no one could have foreseen the Knapp tragedy or just had bad MLF and staff would be at preparing ZW to be an NFL QB. If the offensive staff was competent I feel we'd be having a different discussion this off season. But you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube so the Jets have to live with the consequences.  

[section314]

2 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

And again I'll say it wasn't a bad idea to start ZW from day one as that was a lost season anyways. The team had changes and new faces everywhere so the experience should have been a good foundation. However no one could have foreseen the Knapp tragedy or just had bad MLF and staff would be at preparing ZW to be an NFL QB. If the offensive staff was competent I feel we'd be having a different discussion this off season. But you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube so the Jets have to live with the consequences.  

Absolutely. They are doing the smart thing with him, albeit 2 years late. He's what, 23? I think JD and Saleh really did a deep dive after the season into Zach and realized they have to get real teachers in here to see for sure what they have or don't have in Zach. Get a proven vet in here for 2 years, a professional offensive coaching staff in place, and go forward. There is no downside to this IMHO.

[Rangers9]

I don’t know whose fault Zach’s fall from grace is on but the bottom line is the CS and org lost faith in him that’s why they benched him and are looking for a replacement. I don’t believe a team ruins a player it’s basically on him to get better and play well. No matter who is on the CS a good player can rise above adversity or incompetency. So mostly this is on Zach. But we’ve seen this before with the Jets no matter who’s on the CS or the GM. They draft a QB very high and just hand them the job day one with no competition. Imo he wasn’t ready to be the starter as a rookie maybe later in the year but he never earned the job in the first place. You don’t bench a player after 22 starts you bench them at the start and play them when they’re more ready. 

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, Rangers9 said:

Imo he’s not the 2nd worst QB ever drafted.

The results on the field speak for themselves.  

1 hour ago, Rangers9 said:

The jury’s still out on him. 

Denial is a very common human reaction to disappointment and failure.

 

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, section314 said:

You make a compelling case , no doubt. My question is still.....if Zach is just as horrible as he has shown, then why did two of the 3 best organizations in the NFL( SF and Philly) offer JD mucho picks to trade up to draft him?

Because NFL GM's get drunk on the idea of measurables and potential, often ignoring actual play, quality of opponents, and other minutia for these things.  Some of our forum goers are the same, obsessed with RAS scores over game tape.

In Zach's case, his arm was exceptional and his mobility/elusiveness was well above average for a non-running QB.

Problem is, he's just not very good at playing QB.  No accuracy, no field vision, no decision making, he literally is only arm strength and an ability to flee the pocket like a chicken who no head.

1 hour ago, section314 said:

Seems to me that had the Jets done what they have done/are doing now with the coaching hires and going to get a vet QB two years ago, we are having a much different conversation about Zach. 

I very highly doubt it. 

But it makes for a convenient scapegoat/excuse so folks can keep on hoping, keep on living in denial for how bad Zach has been and likely will continue to be.

Only time will tell, but it'll be alot of wasted time if I'm right.

[section314]

13 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

I don’t know whose fault Zach’s fall from grace is on but the bottom line is the CS and org lost faith in him that’s why they benched him and are looking for a replacement. I don’t believe a team ruins a player it’s basically on him to get better and play well. No matter who is on the CS a good player can rise above adversity or incompetency. So mostly this is on Zach. But we’ve seen this before with the Jets no matter who’s on the CS or the GM. They draft a QB very high and just hand them the job day one with no competition. Imo he wasn’t ready to be the starter as a rookie maybe later in the year but he never earned the job in the first place. You don’t bench a player after 22 starts you bench them at the start and play them when they’re more ready. 

Great point, and this is the first time since Richard Todd was here and we drafted O'brien, I believe, that we are even attempting to do this the right way although two years late. There is no downside to this plan for Zach. Bring in a proven vet for 1-2 years, have success with this team that they have built and let Zach develop. Don't let him leave without doing whatever you can and see him go to Shanahan or Reich and become the guy you thought you were drafting.

[Smashmouth]

On 2/18/2023 at 8:11 AM, Untouchable said:

“Little talent” lol

Last years offense was the Greatest Show on Turf compared to the sh*t Darnold had to work with throughout his tenure here.

This Idiot has no idea wtf Wilson has to do to so called "reinvent" himself.

Zach Wilsons problem is an obvious fear of the pocket he's looking at the rush instead of looking down field and really this is the only explanation. When you see wide open WR's directly in Wilson's visual path and he does not see them there is only 1 explanation. 

He also has a problem leaving the pocket when he really does not have too. There are times, and it happens a lot in the NFL, when Tackles push pass rushers away from the pocket and they have to do it in stages the simple thing is to trust the tackle and move up in the pocket keeping your eyes down field, Zach does not do this, instead he turns and leaves the pocket running with his back to the area he should be focusing forward. He's doing ALL of these things because he's playing afraid and does not like throwing with traffic around him. If you notice when Zach runs out of the pocket and creates some daylight for himself outside the hash/tackle box he steps up and throws a good ball yet when he's in the pocket he's got the yips. That's playing in fear and its also why he does well in practice with a red Jersey.

Until these coaches or so called QB guru's tell Zach the truth and tell him to grow some ******* balls he is NOT going to improve and its effecting his entire game. Zach Wilson has amazing ability and can IMHO be a great QB due to that ability but if he does not get that fear out of his head (which is the single hardest thing to do at the QB position) he will not progress. 

[Jet_Engine1]

On 2/18/2023 at 10:09 AM, ChewyandtheJets said:

We put an unprepared rookie on the field behind a weak offensive line in week 1 and he was absolutely demolished by a tough carolina panther defense.  It was brutal.  Not sure if the kid ever got over that but he's never really shown the willingness to hang in the pocket and take a hit in exchange for the time to allow a play to develop ever since.   Not sure you can be coached out of that or who's fault it ultimately was.  Maybe someone tougher mentally grows from it.  Maybe better coaching doesn't put him in that position in the first place or at least adapts a game plan to take advantage of whatever strengths he might have.  Like all major failures there's plenty of blame to go around.  Time to move on...

Are you saying it took a single game for Wilson to get Carr'ed? ? 

 

Seems legit.

[section314]

7 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Because NFL GM's get drunk on the idea of measurables and potential, often ignoring actual play, quality of opponents, and other minutia for these things.  Some of our forum goers are the same, obsessed with RAS scores over game tape.

In Zach's case, his arm was exceptional and his mobility/elusiveness was well above average for a non-running QB.

Problem is, he's just not very good at playing QB.  No accuracy, no field vision, no decision making, he literally is only arm strength and an ability to flee the pocket like a chicken who no head.

I very highly doubt it. 

But it makes for a convenient scapegoat/excuse so folks can keep on hoping, keep on living in denial for how bad Zach has been and likely will continue to be.

Only time will tell, but it'll be alot of wasted time if I'm right.

I went back time and time again and watched his college tape and none of these things, especially accuracy, were a problem. I would strongly argue that the two bit coaches that Saleh hired to supposedly develop Zach made him worse than the day he was drafted, and it's not even close. 

[Warfish]

1 minute ago, section314 said:

I went back time and time again and watched his college tape and none of these things, especially accuracy, were a problem. I would strongly argue that the two bit coaches that Saleh hired to supposedly develop Zach made him worse than the day he was drafted, and it's not even close. 

How do coaches make a guy worse in something as direct as screen-pass accuracy?

[Smashmouth]

4 hours ago, 56mehl56 said:

So switching OC''s and bringing in a HC like Pedersen had nothing to do with TL's ascension. 

It Absolutely did but Lawrence was not exhibiting the problems Zach was in their first and second year. Lawrence had some really good games as a rookie.... Zach had a couple of good Halves of football. Zach's problems go way deeper than just bad stats.

[Rangers9]

33 minutes ago, section314 said:

Great point, and this is the first time since Richard Todd was here and we drafted O'brien, I believe, that we are even attempting to do this the right way although two years late. There is no downside to this plan for Zach. Bring in a proven vet for 1-2 years, have success with this team that they have built and let Zach develop. Don't let him leave without doing whatever you can and see him go to Shanahan or Reich and become the guy you thought you were drafting.

Well if Zach is on the team as backup this year he’ll probably get a chance to play. But imo again you do this from the start not in the middle. Maybe he comes into training camp with a better understanding of what an NFL offense is about. Not the same as at BYU which is a big play offense long passing plays. Percentage wise that doesn’t work in the current version of the NFL. He did operate ok as a game manager early in the season but he needed a good running game to be successful. Like any other team in the NFL if you don’t have it hard to move the ball and score points. The backups to Breece proved insufficient. But I still think whatever they say the Jets intend to trade Zach. Get his salary off the books and whatever compensation they can get. I think benching him the way they have and openly saying they want to replace him makes it hard for him to return. And I think there will be a market for him.