The O-line thread

[Sperm Edwards]

On 8/6/2023 at 3:19 PM, T0mShane said:

Somewhat related: Broderick Jones, the OT that the Jets were allegedly tied to, is not slated to start this year for the Steelers and has been kind of a mess in camp.

 

“UNITY TWP., Pa — Through two weeks of training camp, Broderick Jones has his ups and downs, as any rookie offensive tackle would at this juncture. But Jones never got a true welcome to the NFL moment until Saturday when he met the old head in the room in Cam Heyward.

In the drill, Jones received a nasty long arm from Heyward, one of his moves that has made even the best guards in the NFL look silly at times. To say the least, Jones went flying backward in a way that had not been seen at training camp nor on his Georgia tape very often, and he ended up four yards back and into the quarterback on his backside.

Can you even imagine if we'd taken Jones and he was the 5th-best tackle behind Brown, Becton, Turner, and Mitchell (and if they allowed him to compete there, AVT as well)?

Could be he knew the camera was on him, but when he made the prediction on who Pittsburgh traded up to get, he didn't look the least bit disappointed. He's not come close to batting 1.000 (no one does) but I honestly don't think he was targeting Jones. Someone who badly wanted a rookie tackle to start this season, who has a history of trading up to get the guy he wants, doesn't trade down out of that #14 spot and then sit his fat ass on his hands and just let the draft unfold. 

I think he ideally wanted to trade down & still take McDonald, but the offers didn't give him enough to risk it and/or the best offers moved him down too much (also without getting enough in return, due to the '23 draft's relative weakness). Like, his dream would've been moving down maybe 3 slots like NE did, and pick up an extra 4th, but he was only getting that to drop way lower. FWIW the only movement that did occur after our pick came down in the mid-late 20s.

[Jetsplayer21]

8 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Can you even imagine if we'd taken Jones and he was the 5th-best tackle behind Brown, Becton, Turner, and Mitchell (and if they allowed him to compete there, AVT as well)?

Could be he knew the camera was on him, but when he made the prediction on who Pittsburgh traded up to get, he didn't look the least bit disappointed. He's not come close to batting 1.000 (no one does) but I honestly don't think he was targeting Jones. Someone who badly wanted a rookie tackle to start this season, who has a history of trading up to get the guy he wants, doesn't trade down out of that #14 spot and then sit his fat ass on his hands and just let the draft unfold. 

I think he ideally wanted to trade down & still take McDonald, but the offers didn't give him enough to risk it and/or the best offers moved him down too much (also without getting enough in return, due to the '23 draft's relative weakness). Like, his dream would've been moving down maybe 3 slots like NE did, and pick up an extra 4th, but he was only getting that to drop way lower. FWIW the only movement that did occur after our pick came down in the mid-late 20s.

Last part definitely likely. Nobody else was going to pick McDonald until late first at best.

[Sperm Edwards]

4 minutes ago, Jetsplayer21 said:

Last part definitely likely. Nobody else was going to pick McDonald until late first at best.

I'm sure someone else felt that same way, and then the Jets took him in the teens. 

There are always players where fan/rating sites don't coincide with the GMs making those picks in that spot. They assume everything goes by their prospect rank and immediate need. Depending on the GM, they take a longer look at their future tenure and who's the next guy they could get a round later; fan sites don't typically do that.

That's aside from just having different rankings outright, which I'm sure also occurs frequently -- perhaps even more so in a weaker 1st round. And yes they have internet access and have seen all the ratings write-ups, too. 

[Larz]

7. Alijah Vera-Tucker - Vera-Tucker hit the ground running as a rookie first-round pick in 2021 before showcasing invaluable versatility last season when filling in for a game at left tackle and three games at right tackle due to injury. He tore his triceps in Week 7, ending his season but put enough on film over his first two seasons to secure tier two status. With efficient footwork, very good power and strength, ‘AVT’ is an easy selection to round out a clear ‘top seven’ at the position.

[Larz]

I was feeling ok about the line yesterday and he has to drop this lol

 

that $35 million Aaron handed JD should go to an OT.  
 

I feel better about becton, he seems like  he’ll be ready in a month but Brown is a mystery until he’s not. 

[Larz]

21 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I'm sure someone else felt that same way, and then the Jets took him in the teens. 

There are always players where fan/rating sites don't coincide with the GMs making those picks in that spot. They assume everything goes by their prospect rank and immediate need. Depending on the GM, they take a longer look at their future tenure and who's the next guy they could get a round later; fan sites don't typically do that.

That's aside from just having different rankings outright, which I'm sure also occurs frequently -- perhaps even more so in a weaker 1st round. And yes they have internet access and have seen all the ratings write-ups, too. 

I think analytics plays a role too. Someone said tippmam was the highest rated center according to their analytics during the draft episode of 1JD and they aren’t sharing that with Mel Kiper lol. 
 

the director of college scouting gave his top 3, MsDonald , The TE and another dude lol. My memory sucks. 
 

we all need to break out the good luck charm for Brown and Becton 

[Saul Goodman]

It would be biggest heartbreak in Jets’ history, and we’ve had a lot of them, if this year’s team fails due to poor OT play.

It doesn’t matter whether your opinion is that Douglas used sufficient resources into that position, the results are all that matters. And right now things are looking bleak for keeping a 39 year old pocket passer adequately protected. 

[Sperm Edwards]

6 minutes ago, Larz said:

I think analytics plays a role too. Someone said tippmam was the highest rated center according to their analytics during the draft episode of 1JD and they aren’t sharing that with Mel Kiper lol. 
 

the director of college scouting gave his top 3, MsDonald , The TE and another dude lol. My memory sucks. 
 

we all need to break out the good luck charm for Brown and Becton 

Yeah I can't remember either & it's hardly worth researching. 

I'd just note that, for all the ease-in-hindsight, not lining up with experts' predictions, how'd the drafts go when one of the 2 most famous draft experts on TV was put in a position to do some drafting himself?

Mayock's first draft had Jacobs & Crosby, and Renfrow had 1 good season in 4, but even in that draft he whiffed on two 1sts (including #4 overall) and an upper-2nd in that draft. The next two full drafts after that he put on a clinic in sucking. So depending how you're grading, that's 2 or 3 hits in 23 attempts. BTW he also had Trubisky ahead of Mahomes (both in predicted slot and in his own personal rankings).

Just saying, if GMs stray from experts' opinions it's not always a bad thing. 

[GreenFish]

2 hours ago, NIGHT STALKER said:

Dolphin O line...starting LG Liam Eichengerg has looked "abysmal" while C Connor Williams and RT Austin Jackson have been "struggling" throughout camp.  We better be spot on who we keep and who we cut.

Keep 10 guys on the 53 and dont risk it. OL is likely an issue around the league.

OT: Becton, Brown, Mitchell, Turner and Warren

iOL: AVT, Laken, McGovern, Tippmann, and Schweitzer

Look to trade Huff for a RT and try and put Turner on the PS. Not worried about losing him.

[Beerfish]

[Bobby816]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Can you even imagine if we'd taken Jones and he was the 5th-best tackle behind Brown, Becton, Turner, and Mitchell (and if they allowed him to compete there, AVT as well)?

Could be he knew the camera was on him, but when he made the prediction on who Pittsburgh traded up to get, he didn't look the least bit disappointed. He's not come close to batting 1.000 (no one does) but I honestly don't think he was targeting Jones. Someone who badly wanted a rookie tackle to start this season, who has a history of trading up to get the guy he wants, doesn't trade down out of that #14 spot and then sit his fat ass on his hands and just let the draft unfold. 

I think he ideally wanted to trade down & still take McDonald, but the offers didn't give him enough to risk it and/or the best offers moved him down too much (also without getting enough in return, due to the '23 draft's relative weakness). Like, his dream would've been moving down maybe 3 slots like NE did, and pick up an extra 4th, but he was only getting that to drop way lower. FWIW the only movement that did occur after our pick came down in the mid-late 20s.

What was the verdict on if we wanted Gibbs if he was there? Was that legit?

[Sperm Edwards]

1 minute ago, Bobby816 said:

What was the verdict on if we wanted Gibbs if he was there? Was that legit?

I've no idea.

They did draft a RB, brought in Cook for a visit months after the draft, and - despite that being a position that's been devalued in draft position & money - in the teens this class wasn't nearly as strong as others have been.

So, it could be. But again I've no actual knowledge one way or the other. 

[GreenFish]

Potential trades:

Huff straight up for either 

1) Yosh Nijman OT (GB)

2) James Hurst OT (NO)

Went through the entire internet to find potential trade targets.

[T0mShane]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Can you even imagine if we'd taken Jones and he was the 5th-best tackle behind Brown, Becton, Turner, and Mitchell (and if they allowed him to compete there, AVT as well)?

Could be he knew the camera was on him, but when he made the prediction on who Pittsburgh traded up to get, he didn't look the least bit disappointed. He's not come close to batting 1.000 (no one does) but I honestly don't think he was targeting Jones. Someone who badly wanted a rookie tackle to start this season, who has a history of trading up to get the guy he wants, doesn't trade down out of that #14 spot and then sit his fat ass on his hands and just let the draft unfold. 

I think he ideally wanted to trade down & still take McDonald, but the offers didn't give him enough to risk it and/or the best offers moved him down too much (also without getting enough in return, due to the '23 draft's relative weakness). Like, his dream would've been moving down maybe 3 slots like NE did, and pick up an extra 4th, but he was only getting that to drop way lower. FWIW the only movement that did occur after our pick came down in the mid-late 20s.

I agree with most of this—philosophically trading down and still drafting a high-potential EDGE would have been win-win, and just the simple fact that he landed Rodgers and got McDonald besides is good process, imo. I do, however, have some anxiety over the near- and far-future of the OL, and Douglas’ lack of urgency is a little troubling. I’d like to think he has a plan for it, but is that plan Duane Brown and hoping for a healthy Becton? Max Mitchell and Carter Warren? I keep having these visions of Rodgers getting sacked on back to back plays against the Bills and deciding then and there that retirement would actually be pretty sweet. Maybe there’s a trade to be made in a few weeks for Bakhtiari? 

[Sperm Edwards]

1 minute ago, T0mShane said:

I agree with most of this—philosophically trading down and still drafting a high-potential EDGE would have been win-win, and just the simple fact that he landed Rodgers and got McDonald besides is good process, imo. I do, however, have some anxiety over the near- and far-future of the OL, and Douglas’ lack of urgency is a little troubling. I’d like to think he has a plan for it, but is that plan Duane Brown and hoping for a healthy Becton? Max Mitchell and Carter Warren? I keep having these visions of Rodgers getting sacked on back to back plays against the Bills and deciding then and there that retirement would actually be pretty sweet. Maybe there’s a trade to be made in a few weeks for Bakhtiari? 

Totally understandable. Of course, with the benefit of hindsight it doesn't seem like Jones would be protecting Rodgers's blind side this year anyway. He might not even be higher than 4th in line. 

Bakhtiari seems a fan complaint. He's not getting moved when they just paid his year salary in advance.

Whatever Love looks like so far, they're going to give him the best chance they have anyway. Love also got an extension this offseason, too. The only way I see Bakhtiari as even a remote possibility is if Love is so terrible and the goes on IR in October, and then there's a trade involving the LT after that. And even that's only if we're having evident tackle issues of our own at the time. 

jmo

[Guilhermezmc]

17 minutes ago, GreenFish said:

Potential trades:

Huff straight up for either 

1) Yosh Nijman OT (GB)

2) James Hurst OT (NO)

Went through the entire internet to find potential trade targets.

madness

[jgb]

On 7/28/2023 at 3:03 PM, Sperm Edwards said:

The omg'ing is overboard.

• The Bengals were a late hit on Mahomes away from OT in the AFCCG. Their tackles were Jonah Williams and La'el Colins, both of whom would/should have been benched if Cin had any tackle depth to speak of. 
• The Bills are again trotting out Spencer Brown at RT. He's arguably worse than the Jets' 4th string RT, yet they've been SB contenders both of his seasons. Dawkins is fine, though hardly great himself.
• Chiefs' downgraded from Orlando Brown to Donovan Smith and won a Super Bowl with Andrew Wylie at RT, who's been replaced by Jawaan Taylor (as one-dimensional as they get). They did their starting tackles on the very, very cheap: a $3MM LT and a $5MM RT. They should still reach the AFCCG again at worst.
• Jacksonville has the annual injury report known as Cam Robinson at LT, and his 2nd year meh backup (good against garbage, garbage against good) Walker Little starting at RT. 
• Bolts again are starting Trey Pipkins at RT. Slater is great when healthy, and is allegedly 100% so far, but he's coming off a mostly-missed season from a ruptured biceps tendon that's still untested in real action since it's healed.
• In Miami, Terron Armstead is on PUP himself following offseason knee surgery. RT Austin Jackson pretty much missed all of last season (and sucks), and Isaiah Wynn (who's never played a full season himself & missed half of 2022) is also on PUP.
• Last year Seattle trotted out two rookie tackles who were hardly on par with rock-solid veterans. 16 accepted penalties between them; 16 sacks between them; another 12 QB hits; and Cross alone an additional 37 hurries...playoffs. 

While injured, Duane Brown surrendered 1 sack in 12 games (similar/same numbers that had half this board using the term "elite" to describe Fant the prior season). Most of that was with Zach Wilson and his ball-holding that won't apply this year (not just the >3 seconds, but bailing from the pocket in unknown Zach-directions, where individual OLmen with their backs to him have no idea which way they should push/slide because they've no idea where he is nor where he's headed). Brown's still got quick feet (espeically for such a big/heavy man his age), and the shoulder injury that robbed him of power in the run game will be healed.

Opposite him, it's the best of the rest at RT: the winner of a month-long competition rather than forcing a high pick out there due to draft slot, no matter how unready & how badly he's playing (e.g. Evan Neal). Seriously, some here need to really look at others' sh*tty starting RTs listed above before crying into their pillows about the feared tragedy that awaits.

The line will be fine so long as they aren't again down to starting - at one point - 6th or 7th string tackles, which is too much to ask of any line to succeed. (Fant, Becton, Brown, Mitchell, AVT, Ogbuehi, Remmers); that's on top of 4 different players lining up at RG (AVT, Herbig, Feeney, LDT). Brutal.

 

Jets had the biggest OL upgrade possible this off season. We are going from the slowest QB in the NFL last year from snap-to-throw to the 2nd fastest. The fastest guy retired. Literally best improvement possible.

[Larz]

Aaron Rodgers said he isn't worried about the #Jets OL:

"You know with Duane Brown he's gonna play. We gotta figure out who the first 5 are gonna be. Lot of guys in competition right now, they're switching the tackles left & right daily. Just looking for consistency with those guys."

Rodgers added that the interior of our OL has been a bright spot for us, said the 1st & 2nd group have been pretty consistent

"We just need a little more consistency on the edge."

Glaser

[jvill 51]

43 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I agree with most of this—philosophically trading down and still drafting a high-potential EDGE would have been win-win, and just the simple fact that he landed Rodgers and got McDonald besides is good process, imo. I do, however, have some anxiety over the near- and far-future of the OL, and Douglas’ lack of urgency is a little troubling. I’d like to think he has a plan for it, but is that plan Duane Brown and hoping for a healthy Becton? Max Mitchell and Carter Warren? I keep having these visions of Rodgers getting sacked on back to back plays against the Bills and deciding then and there that retirement would actually be pretty sweet. Maybe there’s a trade to be made in a few weeks for Bakhtiari? 

I didn’t think they would do it, but more and more I’m thinking the fallback plan involves moving AVT to RT. If Becton isn’t ready/healthy/moved to RT by the start of the season and Tippmann continues playing the way he did in the HOF game, is the “best 5” at that point not Brown, Tomlinson, Tippmann, McGovern, AVT?

[Larz]

 

[RevisIsland610]

20 minutes ago, Larz said:

Aaron Rodgers said he isn't worried about the #Jets OL:

"You know with Duane Brown he's gonna play. We gotta figure out who the first 5 are gonna be. Lot of guys in competition right now, they're switching the tackles left & right daily. Just looking for consistency with those guys."

Rodgers added that the interior of our OL has been a bright spot for us, said the 1st & 2nd group have been pretty consistent

"We just need a little more consistency on the edge."

Glaser

Looking at you Max. 

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

I mean there’s gotta be some veteran RT that gets cut right? Hopefully? Please

[NIGHT STALKER]

Just about everyone is expecting Brown to be our saving grace.  But, we have no idea what shape this guy is in...not football shape for sure.  He's 39 years old, do we really think he's going to play 17 games and hopefully beyond?  So many question marks with 4 out of our 5 O linemen...other than AVT, we have no idea who our starters are...there's time, but not a good sign.

[Asymmetrical]

41 minutes ago, Larz said:

 

 

I'm very curious as to whether Becton's spot on the depth chart is truly a conditioning thing or he's just in the doghouse. 

[Barton]

The defense has far more talent and depth than the offense. Not a recipe for winning in todays NFL. 

[Barton]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

I agree with most of this—philosophically trading down and still drafting a high-potential EDGE would have been win-win, and just the simple fact that he landed Rodgers and got McDonald besides is good process, imo. I do, however, have some anxiety over the near- and far-future of the OL, and Douglas’ lack of urgency is a little troubling. I’d like to think he has a plan for it, but is that plan Duane Brown and hoping for a healthy Becton? Max Mitchell and Carter Warren? I keep having these visions of Rodgers getting sacked on back to back plays against the Bills and deciding then and there that retirement would actually be pretty sweet. Maybe there’s a trade to be made in a few weeks for Bakhtiari? 

Seriously. Does JD want Aaron to retire early? Fielding a poor Oline and getting him killed will do that. Terrible job by JD this off-season to not add a legit force at either right or left tackle. 

[T0mShane]

1 hour ago, jvill 51 said:

I didn’t think they would do it, but more and more I’m thinking the fallback plan involves moving AVT to RT. If Becton isn’t ready/healthy/moved to RT by the start of the season and Tippmann continues playing the way he did in the HOF game, is the “best 5” at that point not Brown, Tomlinson, Tippmann, McGovern, AVT?

I actually thought they’d give Tippman some time at guard, but that hasn’t happened as yet. I heard Rosenblatt say that moving AVT to tackle would be a break-glass-in-case-of-emergency thing, and that the org sees him as an All Pro guard, so they don’t want to move him. I think—barring a trade—it’ll be Brown—Tomlinson—McGovern—AVT—Turner, with Becton, Tippman, and Mitchell in reserve. That’ll be passable

[T0mShane]

1 hour ago, Larz said:

Aaron Rodgers said he isn't worried about the #Jets OL:

"You know with Duane Brown he's gonna play. We gotta figure out who the first 5 are gonna be. Lot of guys in competition right now, they're switching the tackles left & right daily. Just looking for consistency with those guys."

Rodgers added that the interior of our OL has been a bright spot for us, said the 1st & 2nd group have been pretty consistent

"We just need a little more consistency on the edge."

Glaser

Interesting that Rodgers also said that figuring out the starting five right away was “overrated” because injuries are making you adjust all year anyway. 

[T0mShane]

2 hours ago, GreenFish said:

Keep 10 guys on the 53 and dont risk it. OL is likely an issue around the league.

OT: Becton, Brown, Mitchell, Turner and Warren

iOL: AVT, Laken, McGovern, Tippmann, and Schweitzer

Look to trade Huff for a RT and try and put Turner on the PS. Not worried about losing him.

The Cardinals, who are straight up tanking, have Josh Jones and Kelvin Beachum on the bench. Jones has a decent stint filling in at OLT when DJ Humphries went down last year. Last year of his rookie deal. 

[Bronx]

https://nypost.com/2023/08/09/jets-offensive-line-looks-brutal-versus-panthers-in-major-problem?utm_source=nypost&utm_campaign=android_nyp

Jets’ offensive line looks brutal against Panthers as problem persists

Read the rest...

[Larz]

4 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Interesting that Rodgers also said that figuring out the starting five right away was “overrated” because injuries are making you adjust all year anyway. 

That’s true but not having the information the team has on Browns shoulder is giving me anxiety lol 

The opener is a month away but after the Rodgers trade taking so long we’ve done our time waiting already 

This entire offseason has felt like when you are tired and just want to go home and you’re waiting for your ride and every car that pulls up you look 👀 and it’s ……nope not them lol 

[T0mShane]

9 minutes ago, Larz said:

That’s true but not having the information the team has on Browns shoulder is giving me anxiety lol 

The opener is a month away but after the Rodgers trade taking so long we’ve done our time waiting already 

This entire offseason has felt like when you are tired and just want to go home and you’re waiting for your ride and every car that pulls up you look 👀 and it’s ……nope not them lol 

They’re all saying that Brown is coming back “soon” and that he’s the left tackle when he’s ready to go, so that’s an item checked off. Right tackle is the problem spot, but the offense is going to line up with a tight end and a back on every play anyway, so there’ll be help available for Mitchell or Turner. No way they stick Rodgers in an empty set too much

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

For all this talk about competition, they sure seem pretty set on Brown stepping right into the starting LT role when he’s ready. 
 

If that’s the case why not start giving Becton reps at RT to see how it goes??

[T0mShane]

17 minutes ago, Bronx said:

https://nypost.com/2023/08/09/jets-offensive-line-looks-brutal-versus-panthers-in-major-problem?utm_source=nypost&utm_campaign=android_nyp

Jets’ offensive line looks brutal against Panthers as problem persists

Read the rest...

Costello is so lazy. I read a recap by a Panthers beat guy, and their assessment was that Brian Burns ripped past Max Mitchell on two separate plays, which, it’s Brian Burns. I did find these two nuggets interesting as it relates to Becton:

1. Rodgers: “With Duane, he’s going to play well,” Rodgers said. “We got to figure out who the first five is going to be. So, a lot of guys in competition right now. It seems like they’re switching the tackles left and right, just about daily with Max and Billy, just looking for consistency with those guys.

2. Becton wasn’t in for the two minute drill, where the Jets went three and out. 

[bitonti]

5 minutes ago, Zachtomims47 said:

For all this talk about competition, they sure seem pretty set on Brown stepping right into the starting LT role when he’s ready. 
 

If that’s the case why not start giving Becton reps at RT to see how it goes??

Because they gave up on Becton and are showcasing him for a trade