IV

[y2k8]

On 8/7/2023 at 4:30 PM, Larz said:

I like the name  @bitonti gave him, 
 

The truth 

 

We started calling him Predator by the 2nd Quarter.

[BCJet]

On 8/7/2023 at 5:20 PM, Embrace the Suck said:

What's really nice about him is that he had to play inside against huge guys so he knows how to wrestle with bigger guys, and hopefully won't be one dimensional. If he can play 3 downs and set the edge while rushing the passer that would be amazing, particularly at his weight.

I think this is a great point.  Not only did Iowa State help us by lowering his draft stock playing him on the interior all year but it also gave him a year of experience having to shed blocks and play against stronger interior OL which should help speed up his development agains the run.
I think JSN is going to be a very good player but I think McD is gonna be a great pass rusher and fit in perfectly on a line with QW and JJ as they each bring different skill sets to the DL that all complement each other very well.

[rangerous]

2 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Most of those guys are from a different era though.  The famed "Hogs" (Washington's OL) averaged 273 lbs.   The average weight of an NFL OL now is around 314lbs and the lightest is 274 (which is more than the average of the Hogs).

 

https://hortonbarbell.com/average-height-weight-of-nfl-offensive-linemen/

True but huff is listed at 255, Johnson is listed at 261 and Macdonald comes in at 246.  Macdonald can easily carry another 20 lbs.

[derp]

2 hours ago, T0mShane said:

If you knew that you were going all out for a ring this year, and you knew which free agents were available at each position, would you rather spend the draft pick on a designated pass rusher and sign an OBJ or draft the potentially really good slot receiver and try to sign…Jadeveon Clowney(?) Leonard Floyd(?) I’d probably take my shot with the potentially high-end DPR and pray for a good free agent receiver. 
 

That said, you’re spot on about the rest—the 2025 Jets are going to be threadbare and, likely, expensive. They’ll need an OLT, QB, CB2 and WR2, at minimum. 

I think there’s just always more pass rushers out there. Ngakoue just signed. So did Justin Houston. Think Melvin Ingram and Clowney are all out there. Especially for a rotational role, there’s always a bunch of guys who can give you quality snaps.

Even just for a simple comparison, Ngakoue is probably the high end guy of that group. He has played seven seasons and never had less than 8 sacks. He just signed one year, $10.5M with the Bears. Houston had 9.5 sacks for the Ravens last year making $3.5M - he’s making up to $7M for the Panthers. Beckham hasn’t played in a year and a half and signed for what, $18.5M and the last year he broke 550 yards was 2019. The WR market is bananas.

Given one of those guys at their tag or Beckham at his, I’m taking the mercenary edge.

 

[MichaelScott]

13 hours ago, Barry McCockinner said:

I mean maybe? Can we get past PS W2 of his rookie season before deciding?

You're not wrong. My issues with this pick are purely based on position and player taken at the time they were taken. I have no idea what these players will be. Ultimately it will matter what these two players end up being in a couple years. The draft is always a roll of the dice. I'm just saying, if I was rolling them, I'd probably go with the best player at his position at a huge position of need over reaching for a player at a non position of need. If McD ends up being a 12+ sack player, it won't matter and JD will be a genius. I hope that happens. But somehow I don't see it 

[Sperm Edwards]

2 hours ago, MichaelScott said:

You're not wrong. My issues with this pick are purely based on position and player taken at the time they were taken. I have no idea what these players will be. Ultimately it will matter what these two players end up being in a couple years. The draft is always a roll of the dice. I'm just saying, if I was rolling them, I'd probably go with the best player at his position at a huge position of need over reaching for a player at a non position of need. If McD ends up being a 12+ sack player, it won't matter and JD will be a genius. I hope that happens. But somehow I don't see it 

Meh, WR isn’t a “huge position of need” either. At least not this season.

They had 3 starters heading into the draft, not counting Hardman who was acceptable enough to start on a contending team by Andy Reid.

That’s also not counting Cobb who, while obviously past his prime, will play a niche role with no learning curve.

[Rhg1084]

2 hours ago, MichaelScott said:

You're not wrong. My issues with this pick are purely based on position and player taken at the time they were taken. I have no idea what these players will be. Ultimately it will matter what these two players end up being in a couple years. The draft is always a roll of the dice. I'm just saying, if I was rolling them, I'd probably go with the best player at his position at a huge position of need over reaching for a player at a non position of need. If McD ends up being a 12+ sack player, it won't matter and JD will be a genius. I hope that happens. But somehow I don't see it 

EDGE is a position of need tho. McDonald and JJ will be the cornerstone guys for the foreseeable future. 

[Sperm Edwards]

50 minutes ago, Rhg1084 said:

EDGE is a position of need tho. McDonald and JJ will be the cornerstone guys for the foreseeable future. 

Yeah it's going to come down to who's the better pro. If they both grow into extreme upper-end they are both playing premium positions that get premium contracts of similar value.

When comparing apples to apples, be sure to note the top 2 WR contracts are half or mostly fluff the players will never see (i.e. Hill's $30MM/year (120/4) is really $25MM (75/3); Adams's $28MM/year is really $22.6MM (68/3). Hill's not playing a 4th year at 32 at a non-guaranteed $45MM, and Adams isn't getting non-guaranteed $36MM/year for his age 33 and 34 seasons either.

Top 5 Edge contracts

1. Watt $28MM
2. Joey Bosa $27MM (his brother will eclipse it shortly)
3. Garrett $25MM
4. Crosby $23.5MM
5. Mack $23.5MM

Top 5 WR contracts (counting only serious/real contract seasons under which the player has a chance of playing, not nonsense-fluff years that spike the average)

1. Kupp $26.7MM
2. Hill $25MM
3. AJ Brown $25MM
4. Diggs $24MM
5. Metcalf $24MM

WR has a deeper # of players in the ~$20MM+ range (14 vs 9 players), but that also speaks to the relative rarity between the positions as much as positions' innate values. Suffice to say, they're very similar values for top players.

Baltimore paying 31 yr old OBJ $15MM (with another $2.5MM he'd easily reach if he merely plays the season) is more about one team's desperation than the player's innate value true value. I doubt anyone else was within $5MM/year of Baltimore's offer (like the Jets with CJM at that time), irrespective of whether or not Beckham balls out for a full '23 season.

Next year the Jets have a starter at WR - Davis - whose contract expires (as well as Hardman/Cobb). They also have expiring edge contracts for Lawson and Huff. So neither position has an extreme hold right now, and both positions would've had notable openings next year. 

Yeah on the one hand everyone wants a WR corps that is deadly at 2 starters. Likewise if/when it's gone after having it, you'll also want to be able to generate consistent pressure both up the middle and on the edges without blitzing as a prerequisite, as it's like having an extra defender on the field. Which valued desire leads to more wins? Really that's the judgment, stats aside.

[Jet Nut]

On 8/8/2023 at 11:26 AM, derp said:

I think that’s where the ability to find functional veterans at edge versus wide receiver plays into things, as well as what you got into a little with snap counts. A high end receiver going forward is going to play more than a high end pass rusher. You’ve also got Q who’s the real game wrecker on the DL locked up anyway.

Kind of don’t see it as being that easy to find the edge rusher.  We haven’t had one since Abraham while trying every year it seems.  While we’ve easily found lots of receivers, both in the draft and FA.  

[NIGHT STALKER]

On 8/7/2023 at 4:25 PM, dbatesman said:

I planted my flag in this hill way back in April, but I just want to put it on the record once again: I think McDonald is going to be really good.

You and just about every Jets fan.

[derp]

33 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Kind of don’t see it as being that easy to find the edge rusher.  We haven’t had one since Abraham while trying every year it seems.  While we’ve easily found lots of receivers, both in the draft and FA.  

 

15 hours ago, derp said:

I think there’s just always more pass rushers out there. Ngakoue just signed. So did Justin Houston. Think Melvin Ingram and Clowney are all out there. Especially for a rotational role, there’s always a bunch of guys who can give you quality snaps.

Even just for a simple comparison, Ngakoue is probably the high end guy of that group. He has played seven seasons and never had less than 8 sacks. He just signed one year, $10.5M with the Bears. Houston had 9.5 sacks for the Ravens last year making $3.5M - he’s making up to $7M for the Panthers. Beckham hasn’t played in a year and a half and signed for what, $18.5M and the last year he broke 550 yards was 2019. The WR market is bananas.

Given one of those guys at their tag or Beckham at his, I’m taking the mercenary edge.

 

^When it comes to signing veterans I think it’s easier to find capable veterans on the DL at a decent price.

They haven’t had a long term high end player at either spot in quite some time. The one Marshall year.

[Jet Nut]

11 minutes ago, derp said:

 

^When it comes to signing veterans I think it’s easier to find capable veterans on the DL at a decent price.

They haven’t had a long term high end player at either spot in quite some time. The one Marshall year.

Again, we’ve tried drafting help at edge.  Since Abraham nothing.  Through the draft or FA.  
Since Abraham we’ve had plenty of WR.  I don’t see taking a #2 or #3 WR over edge. 

[derp]

delete

[derp]

18 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Again, we’ve tried drafting help at edge.  Since Abraham nothing.  Through the draft or FA.  
Since Abraham we’ve had plenty of WR.  I don’t see taking a #2 or #3 WR over edge. 

They haven’t signed the kinds of veterans I talked about in the post I quoted. 

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, derp said:

They haven’t signed the kinds of veterans I talked about in the post I quoted. 

I don’t think Clowney etc would come anywhere close to Abraham.  

[derp]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

I don’t think Clowney etc would come anywhere close to Abraham.  

I’m focused the veteran DE market versus the veteran WR market and you’re focused on replacing Abraham. We’re talking across each other.

Whether he’s Abraham or not, there isn’t a WR version of Ngakoue - who’s 28 and has had at least 8 sacks in all seven of his NFL seasons - available for 1/$10.5M in March, let alone in August.

Functional players at the position who can make a meaningful impact are easier to find and more affordable than at WR. Teams like the Ravens in particular make a killing with cheap veteran DL.

[Jet Nut]

1 minute ago, derp said:

I’m focused the veteran DE market versus the veteran WR market and you’re focused on replacing Abraham. We’re talking across each other.

Whether he’s Abraham or not, there isn’t a WR version of Ngakoue - who’s 28 and has had at least 8 sacks in all seven of his NFL seasons - available for 1/$10.5M in March, let alone in August.

Functional players at the position who can make a meaningful impact are easier to find and more affordable than at WR. Teams like the Ravens in particular make a killing with cheap veteran DL.

My point with Abraham is only that in all the years since the days we moved him we weren’t able to replace him.  
WRs are a dime a dozen compared to EDGE.  

[derp]

7 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

My point with Abraham is only that in all the years since the days we moved him we weren’t able to replace him.  
WRs are a dime a dozen compared to EDGE.  

Hyperbole. You can find solid edge players and solid receivers. Difference makers are hard to find at both positions.

[MichaelScott]

20 hours ago, Rhg1084 said:

EDGE is a position of need tho. McDonald and JJ will be the cornerstone guys for the foreseeable future. 

😪 This isn't about developing another rotational Edge player for the "foreseeable future". The Jets traded for Rodgers to give themselves a small 1-2 year window to make a run. People keep mentioning JJ with McDonald. You know who's never mentioned when they talk about how great last year's draft was? JJ. He had no impact and seldom saw the field. What was G Wilson's impact last year? Compare that to JJ. If you could pick one of those players, who are you picking? The answer isn't even debatable. 

The Jets needed to win NOW. They needed a weapon for Rodgers this year(or even better, someone that can help keep him standing). A starting WR would be on the field for, probably, 60% of the snaps. A rotational 3rd down DE will see maybe 30% of the snaps in this defense. This was a horrible pick based on player, position, and team need for a team that needs to win right now. 

[Barton]

19 minutes ago, MichaelScott said:

😪 This isn't about developing another rotational Edge player for the "foreseeable future". The Jets traded for Rodgers to give themselves a small 1-2 year window to make a run. People keep mentioning JJ with McDonald. You know who's never mentioned when they talk about how great last year's draft was? JJ. He had no impact and seldom saw the field. What was G Wilson's impact last year? Compare that to JJ. If you could pick one of those players, who are you picking? The answer isn't even debatable. 

The Jets needed to win NOW. They needed a weapon for Rodgers this year(or even better, someone that can help keep him standing). A starting WR would be on the field for, probably, 60% of the snaps. A rotational 3rd down DE will see maybe 30% of the snaps in this defense. This was a horrible pick based on player, position, and team need for a team that needs to win right now. 

Defensive head coach. Jets 

[T0mShane]

1 hour ago, MichaelScott said:

😪 This isn't about developing another rotational Edge player for the "foreseeable future". The Jets traded for Rodgers to give themselves a small 1-2 year window to make a run. People keep mentioning JJ with McDonald. You know who's never mentioned when they talk about how great last year's draft was? JJ. He had no impact and seldom saw the field. What was G Wilson's impact last year? Compare that to JJ. If you could pick one of those players, who are you picking? The answer isn't even debatable. 

The Jets needed to win NOW. They needed a weapon for Rodgers this year(or even better, someone that can help keep him standing). A starting WR would be on the field for, probably, 60% of the snaps. A rotational 3rd down DE will see maybe 30% of the snaps in this defense. This was a horrible pick based on player, position, and team need for a team that needs to win right now. 

Loading up on pass rushers is good idea, particularly in our division where every team has major issues at the tackle spots. It’s a glaring weakness for all but maybe three teams in the entire league. 
 

 

[Jetkwondo]

I think Buffalo learned that you could never have enough young pass rushers. Losing Von Miller last year was huge in getting sustained pressure on opposing QB's.

Rousseau (1Rd) and Epenesa  (2Rd) are young, good, rising players but they were shutout in getting to Mahomes in the playoffs. Having Miller might have been the difference in that close playoff loss that kept them from the SB last year.

With the Jets,  Lawson, JJ and now having bendy, quick,  lb for lb strong, McDonald flying off the edge seems legit in maintaining sustained pressure on the QB. 

[Jet Nut]

17 hours ago, derp said:

Hyperbole. You can find solid edge players and solid receivers. Difference makers are hard to find at both positions.

Agreed, difference makers are hard to find. 
There are fewer Edge rushers that move the needle and are available.  They’re hard to find and aren’t moved as often as WR.  

[derp]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

Agreed, difference makers are hard to find. 
There are fewer Edge rushers that move the needle and are available.  They’re hard to find and aren’t moved as often as WR.  

Like anything there’s nuance. There’s maybe six difference making rushers and seven difference making pass catchers, it’s close. Four and six respectively if you restrict to DE and WR.

The edge rusher is probably harder to find, but that in part comes from the high end guys usually going at the top of the draft - which isn’t where the Jets were picking this year.

If they were picking second and there’s an elite edge rusher and an elite receiver available, give me the edge rusher. At pick 15 I think it’s a combination of it being more likely that a receiver drafted there is a difference maker and that the veteran market for solid players at edge is more affordable and easier to find than receivers where guys like Christian Kirk are making $20M - even Lazard at 4/$44M.

I also don’t think there’s a WR equivalent of Ngakoue available at $10.5M, and that’s more realistically the kind of pass rusher you’re looking at with the 15th pick.

The difference making receivers definitely just started getting moved, but at stages of their careers where they’re likely to go off a cliff.

At the end of the day it’s also probably splitting hairs and more a degree of personal preference, but that’s why I leaned the way I did. There’s a reason to believe that the league undervalued both McDonald and Smith-Njigba and certainly a case to be made for McDonald under those circumstances. I just really liked Smith-Njigba as a prospect.

Also, for as long as the Jets have been looking for an edge rusher they’ve largely been competent on defense and looking for a competent offense. Would have been nice to add another long term anchor on that side of the ball and set things up for post Rodgers.

[slats]

5 hours ago, MichaelScott said:

😪 This isn't about developing another rotational Edge player for the "foreseeable future". The Jets traded for Rodgers to give themselves a small 1-2 year window to make a run. People keep mentioning JJ with McDonald. You know who's never mentioned when they talk about how great last year's draft was? JJ. He had no impact and seldom saw the field. What was G Wilson's impact last year? Compare that to JJ. If you could pick one of those players, who are you picking? The answer isn't even debatable. 

The Jets needed to win NOW. They needed a weapon for Rodgers this year(or even better, someone that can help keep him standing). A starting WR would be on the field for, probably, 60% of the snaps. A rotational 3rd down DE will see maybe 30% of the snaps in this defense. This was a horrible pick based on player, position, and team need for a team that needs to win right now. 

One of the reasons Rodgers wanted to be here is because the Jets have a better defense than he’s maybe ever had in Green Bay, a major component in hoping to win now. I don’t think he’s as unhappy with the Jets’ receivers as you seem to be, either. 

[Jet Nut]

13 hours ago, MichaelScott said:

😪 This isn't about developing another rotational Edge player for the "foreseeable future". The Jets traded for Rodgers to give themselves a small 1-2 year window to make a run. People keep mentioning JJ with McDonald. You know who's never mentioned when they talk about how great last year's draft was? JJ. He had no impact and seldom saw the field. What was G Wilson's impact last year? Compare that to JJ. If you could pick one of those players, who are you picking? The answer isn't even debatable. 

The Jets needed to win NOW. They needed a weapon for Rodgers this year(or even better, someone that can help keep him standing). A starting WR would be on the field for, probably, 60% of the snaps. A rotational 3rd down DE will see maybe 30% of the snaps in this defense. This was a horrible pick based on player, position, and team need for a team that needs to win right now. 

Short sighted approach.  Have no idea where the idea started that defense, putting the opposing QB on his ass doesn’t help you win games.  A rotational edge, if he applies pressure and sacks is more important than another so so WR, the type that everyone has

[MichaelScott]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

Short sighted approach.  Have no idea where the idea started that defense, putting the opposing QB on his ass doesn’t help you win games.  A rotational edge, if he applies pressure and sacks is more important than another so so WR, the type that everyone has

Short sighted? The team traded significant draft capital for a 40 year old QB that was "90% retired 6 months ago". Short sighted went out the window when you went all in on Rodgers. You need to win NOW. 

Probably has to do with the fact that the Jets just traded a 1st and 2nd round pick for the last 1-2 years of a HOF QBs career. Add to that the fact that this team showed to have a top defense last year and a offense that was a complete dumpster fire. 

You traded premium picks to swing for the fences with Rodgers. There is a possibility that you're window is literally THIS year. It was JD's job to stack this offense with firepower around Rodgers. He didn't do that. The pass rush wasn't the problem. The offense was. We didn't need a rotational 3rd down player. We needed a starter on offense. We didn't need another JJ. We needed another G Wilson. 

We needed JSN. Reaching for rotational 3rd down player with the best ranked WR in the draft available was utter incompetence. Please don't feel the need to respond, I'm really not interested in going back and forth. McD was a f'ing horrible pick when it was made.

[David Harris]

I thought you were getting IV fluids, glad you’re ok

[Barton]

McDonald was a surprising pick.

You acquire a 40 year old HOF QB and you take another defensive player? And at the same position that you spent a 1st rd pick on just last year?

Cmon. 

McDonald cannot be just a rotational 3rd down guy who gets 5 sacks this year. He needs to make a LARGE impact THIS year. 

 

[Jet Nut]

11 hours ago, MichaelScott said:

Short sighted? The team traded significant draft capital for a 40 year old QB that was "90% retired 6 months ago". Short sighted went out the window when you went all in on Rodgers. You need to win NOW. 

Probably has to do with the fact that the Jets just traded a 1st and 2nd round pick for the last 1-2 years of a HOF QBs career. Add to that the fact that this team showed to have a top defense last year and a offense that was a complete dumpster fire. 

You traded premium picks to swing for the fences with Rodgers. There is a possibility that you're window is literally THIS year. It was JD's job to stack this offense with firepower around Rodgers. He didn't do that. The pass rush wasn't the problem. The offense was. We didn't need a rotational 3rd down player. We needed a starter on offense. We didn't need another JJ. We needed another G Wilson. 

We needed JSN. Reaching for rotational 3rd down player with the best ranked WR in the draft available was utter incompetence. Please don't feel the need to respond, I'm really not interested in going back and forth. McD was a f'ing horrible pick when it was made.

The idea that another WR will help the team win over a EDGE is short sighted.  We either needed another WR or EDGE more to win or not.  We didnt need a WR because Rodgers will turn 40.  Add in McDonald wasnt a reach.  JSN was the best of a terrible WR class.  He’s not Wilson, London etc.  He would probably been a 2nd round pick a year earlier.  
You know, it’s helping a 40 yo QB if his defense can keep the other team from scoring.  

[Jetkwondo]

I was just thinking about what McDonald may add to our 3rd down pass rush and found this interesting article written last December.

Michael Nania is becoming one of my favorite Jets analysts and I think he identified our only weakness last year from being considered elite

https://jetsxfactor.com/2022/12/20/ny-jets-star-underperform-takeaways/

The Jets typically create plenty of pressure. They are excellent in coverage. So, what gives?

Ultimately, I think the Jets’ lack of takeaways over the past five games is purely due to bad luck more than anything. But if we want to point fingers, I would look toward one player first and foremost: Carl Lawson.

Plug McDonald in with Huff, Q and JFM on 3rd and long instead of Lawson and we may have something special.

 

 

 

 

[ncjetman]

I give this post two thumbs up. Ok. Just one.

i get it!


Sent from my iPad using JetNation.com mobile app

[JiFtheOracle]

On 8/8/2023 at 9:32 AM, The Crusher said:

Not sure, but I know who’s not one.. @RutgersJetFan

I'm a big time foodie who cooks really well and loves a player who has intense ability to bend.

[The Crusher]

57 minutes ago, JiF said:

I'm a big time foodie who cooks really well and loves a fat penis who has intense ability to bend.

We know. 

[JiFtheOracle]

1 hour ago, The Crusher said:

We know. 

Just want to emphasize that I love the word bend.  And I think foodies are the coolest people on earth.