Who did less with more-Joe Walton or Herm?

[tuffhand]

Joe Walton took over a team that was a mud bowl away from the Super Bowl and declared it was time to rebuild. Herm Edwards was a snake oil salesman who couldn't even manage the clock in a 2 minute drill. They both had more and did less or, in simpler terms, they both stunk.

[NoBowles]

Herm was handed a very good vertical passing offense, and a very good 3-4 defense. He brings in a WCO OC and a Tampa Cover 2 defense......

 

FK HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Apache 51]

They both did the same, absolutely nothing.

[jmat321]

Of all the Jet HCs who sucked, who sucked with the most talent 

 

[JetsFanatic]

On 3/27/2008 at 10:04 AM, nyjunc said:

 

Walton was not a good coach but o0ur team was decimated defensively late in '86 and O'brien hurt his throwing shoulder and was never the same. If Ryan doesn't get hurt at Cle we beat the browns and obviously if gastineau doesn't get that penalty we most likely beat the browns. Those were circumstances beyond Walton's control.

I agree with your take on this game.  This was the most heartbreaking loss I've had as a Jets fan.  Thats saying something.

[shawn306]

8 minutes ago, jmat321 said:

Of all the Jet HCs who sucked, who sucked with the most talent 

 

Al Groh

[glenn31]

7 minutes ago, JetsFanatic said:

I agree with your take on this game.  This was the most heartbreaking loss I've had as a Jets fan.  Thats saying something.

First saw this game when I was 7 years old, so the loss just came and went then. Re-watched it in 2010 off of a torrent and even though I knew what was going to happen, when Bahr hits that winning field goal, I kid you not my friend I felt EXACTLY as I felt when we lost in Pittsburgh in January '05, eyes welled up with tears and everything.

[JetsFanatic]

Just now, glenn31 said:

First saw this game when I was 7 years old, so the loss just came and went then. Re-watched it in 2010 off of a torrent and even though I knew what was going to happen, when Bahr hits that winning field goal, I kid you not my friend I felt EXACTLY as I felt when we lost in Pittsburgh in January '05, eyes welled up with tears and everything.

The Pittsburgh loss in January '05 was another killer. They both were devastating losses. Rank them 1 & 1A in devastation.

[rangerous]

On 3/27/2008 at 9:28 AM, Bugg said:

Bob said:

This is a great topic. I'm voting for Walton. Stars on both offense and defense and he STILL couldn't get it done.

 

Herm is not far behind, though.

Agreed. Put it this way-the 1986 team started 10-1, and Walton pretty much shat the bed from there. Even then, they had no business losing that Gastineau game in Cleveland, and they were a better team than either the Broncos or the Jints. And that was even with Klecko hurt.

in all fairness that team got the injury bug and they couldn't recover the season.  as for the walton/herm argument, walton wins this one but it should be pointed out that walton had to coach through one of the strike seasons and that really sealed his fate.

[Matt39]

Herm was totally clueless on game day, but was able to put together a halfway decent staff around him who were experienced- Westhoff being a nice example. THey were never highly penalized and didn't turn it over a ton. I cant believe I'm remembering the Herm years fondly here, but Bowles staff is a total sh*tshow.

I barely remember Walton besides the Joe must go stuff.

[Jet_Engine1]

On 3/27/2008 at 9:26 AM, SouthernJet said:

ole Joe was greatest picker in NFL History

Jake Plummer thinks otherwise......

[Jetscode1]

On 3/27/2008 at 0:25 PM, MSGold12 said:

 

Why thank you!

 

How's the collecting? Anything new get uncovered recently? I found a few huddle edited older pre season games. Interested?

What are we collecting?  I hit the estate sales...if you're looking for something specific I can keep an eye out.

[Jetscode1]

lol...thread necro ftw

[Obrien2Toon]

Herm is the worst coach in NFL history 

[nyjunc]

17 hours ago, glenn31 said:

First saw this game when I was 7 years old, so the loss just came and went then. Re-watched it in 2010 off of a torrent and even though I knew what was going to happen, when Bahr hits that winning field goal, I kid you not my friend I felt EXACTLY as I felt when we lost in Pittsburgh in January '05, eyes welled up with tears and everything.

It was mark Mosley not Bahr,  this thread is old.  My new most painful loss is the title game at Pitt.  I fully believe we were better than Pitt but we couldn't regroup after upsetting the Pats and we came out flat.  if we don't come out flat we win that game and might finally have another SB trophy.  

[Jet Nut]

On 3/27/2008 at 10:35 AM, SouthernJet said:

browns game was worst i ever had to endure,,we had game won except for dumb penalty at end..

 

dolphins with todd,we had better team, but werent ahead,,

steelers a few years back,,we still needed to kick the FG to win.

 

browns,,we had it won,,f'in roided up gastineau

There were more than a few plays that cost us that game, dont know why the roughing call is where all the blame gets dumped.

There was the sideline fumble.  A long PI call on a jump ball.  A misses really short FG or two.  

Then the worst.  Running out the clock, under 2 mins., Walton has O'Brien run a bootleg into the line, loses a yard and is a sack.  He didnt know that the rule back then was that the clock stopped on a sack with less than 2 mins at the half or end of game.  Gave the Browns the time they needed to tie the game.  Gastineaus penalty hurt but it was far from the only reason they blew the game.

 

 

[Beerfish]

Herm never gave Ricky Ray an actual chance and chose Brooks Bollinger over him.

Herm lost his never in the playoffs vs the Steelers when we were motoring down the field and layed on the ball so Doug Brien could miss a long FG, much longer than it should have been after the Chargers did the exact same thing to let us win the previous week.

Herm sucked but I was not around for the Walton era so I can't compare them.

[Jet Nut]

4 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Herm never gave Ricky Ray an actual chance and chose Brooks Bollinger over him.

Herm lost his never in the playoffs vs the Steelers when we were motoring down the field and layed on the ball so Doug Brien could miss a long FG, much longer than it should have been after the Chargers did the exact same thing to let us win the previous week.

Herm sucked but I was not around for the Walton era so I can't compare them.

43 yard FG, wasnt a long FG.  Though I agree, he should have went for it on 3rd down.

 

[Beerfish]

Just now, Jet Nut said:

43 yard FG, wasnt a long FG.  Though I agree, he should have went for it on 3rd down.

 

43 yards is long as in not a chip shot when you are blasting your way down the filed.  coaches that lay on the ball and settle for 40 yard plusers are morons.  Especially when the very week before we won because Shotty senior did the same thing,.

[nyjunc]

10 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Herm never gave Ricky Ray an actual chance and chose Brooks Bollinger over him.

Herm lost his never in the playoffs vs the Steelers when we were motoring down the field and layed on the ball so Doug Brien could miss a long FG, much longer than it should have been after the Chargers did the exact same thing to let us win the previous week.

Herm sucked but I was not around for the Walton era so I can't compare them.

Ricky Ray

we did have a nice drive on the first missed FG but it was a 3rd and 5 at the Pitt 28 and we did throw the ball.  Brien missed the 46 yard attempt off the crossbar.

on the next one we were too conservative, we got the INT and were close to FG range, a few plays later we were in FG range.  I didn't like kneeling but we lost 1 yard, we had a kick 4 yards closer for our K than the one he just missed.  he has to make that kick but he didn't.

Herm took over a franchise that had THREE HCs walk out on them in the span of a year, we had some talent but cap issues.  NO ONE wanted the job and we went from 1 PO season in 9 years to 3 in 4 including a rare div title.

Walton took over one of the most talented teams in the AFC coming off a conf title game app.

it's not close btw the 2.

[nyjunc]

3 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

43 yards is long as in not a chip shot when you are blasting your way down the filed.  coaches that lay on the ball and settle for 40 yard plusers are morons.  Especially when the very week before we won because Shotty senior did the same thing,.

our drive started at the Pitt 37, we had a 1st and 10 at the Pitt 25 w/ under a minute left.  if we went for it and turned it over then he'd get blasted for that, the bottom line is the K has to make a 43 yd attempt after he barely missed a 47 yarder moments earlier.

[Jet Nut]

44 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

43 yards is long as in not a chip shot when you are blasting your way down the filed.  coaches that lay on the ball and settle for 40 yard plusers are morons.  Especially when the very week before we won because Shotty senior did the same thing,.

43 is more of a chip shot than a long FG attempt.  I said he should have pushed closer but Brien chocked.

[shawn306]

11 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

43 is more of a chip shot than a long FG attempt.  I said he should have pushed closer but Brian chocked.

I don't know if this still holds true but at the time no one had made a field goal from that distance at the side of the field where Brien was kicking from so yeah Herm should have pushed them closer.

[nyjunc]

5 minutes ago, shawn306 said:

I don't know if this still holds true but at the time no one had made a field goal from that distance at the side of the field where Brien was kicking from so yeah Herm should have pushed them closer.

that was the excuse back then but the Stadium was almost brand new.  I think it opened in 2001.  a week later in the same EZ Vinatieri hit one from about 50 that would have been good from 60.  Brien needs to make one of those 2 kicks.

[Jet Nut]

6 minutes ago, shawn306 said:

I don't know if this still holds true but at the time no one had made a field goal from that distance at the side of the field where Brien was kicking from so yeah Herm should have pushed them closer.

Not sure if no one had ever done it, stadium was kind of new, but yes, there were issues kicking in that end of the field, you are right.  Still 43 yards?

[chirorob]

19 hours ago, NoBowles said:

Herm was handed a very good vertical passing offense, and a very good 3-4 defense. He brings in a WCO OC and a Tampa Cover 2 defense......

 

FK HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He also had to lose both his starting corners in the expansion draft because Parcells gave out some bad contracts and they were way over the cap.

Walton took the Sack Exchange, and turned it into a 3-4 for no real reason.   When healthy, Klecko and Gastineau combined for 40 sacks one year!!  40, from 2 guys (sack wasn't an official stat).  

[chirorob]

42 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

our drive started at the Pitt 37, we had a 1st and 10 at the Pitt 25 w/ under a minute left.  if we went for it and turned it over then he'd get blasted for that, the bottom line is the K has to make a 43 yd attempt after he barely missed a 47 yarder moments earlier.

You run your HOF running back off tackle to pick up 2-3 more yards, you don't take a knee and push it back another.  That call was such chicken $***.

That being said, Herm's last team had no chance.  Both tackles got hurt, and he lost 2 QBs in about 3 minutes.   No one can recover from that.

[nyjunc]

19 hours ago, NoBowles said:

Herm was handed a very good vertical passing offense, and a very good 3-4 defense. He brings in a WCO OC and a Tampa Cover 2 defense......

 

FK HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

huh?  Vinny was a shell of himself after the achilles injury and threw TWENTY FIVE INTs in 2000 w/ only 21 TDs and 3732 yds in 590 attempts.  when herm was hired Chad was the future, they brought in a system to suit Chad not an aging Vinny.  they made wise moves to ride Curtis and cut down on Vinny's throws in 2001 which led them to the playoffs then Chad would take over a year later.

the very good 3-4 D we had was 13th in points allowed in 2000, in 2001 w/ Herm it was 12th.

[nyjunc]

13 minutes ago, chirorob said:

You run your HOF running back off tackle to pick up 2-3 more yards, you don't take a knee and push it back another.  That call was such chicken $***.

That being said, Herm's last team had no chance.  Both tackles got hurt, and he lost 2 QBs in about 3 minutes.   No one can recover from that.

I didn't like taking a knee but the same people complaining about that would have thrown the remote through their TV if Curtis fumbled or lost yardage. The K has to make one of those 2 makeable kicks.

 

2005 was a disaster

[#27TheDominator]

1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

our drive started at the Pitt 37, we had a 1st and 10 at the Pitt 25 w/ under a minute left.  if we went for it and turned it over then he'd get blasted for that, the bottom line is the K has to make a 43 yd attempt after he barely missed a 47 yarder moments earlier.

Stop making excuses.  Why take the ******* knee?  There was no good reason.  None.  There were 6 seconds left and he took a timeout after the last run.  Why not just kick the ******* field goal?  Why lose yardage?  It was ******* beyond moronic even if you were a ball-less **** that didn't want to try to get a few extra yards. To get to the left hash mark?  That was stupid too.  **** both these morons. 

[nyjunc]

12 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Stop making excuses.  Why take the ******* knee?  There was no good reason.  None.  There were 6 seconds left and he took a timeout after the last run.  Why not just kick the ******* field goal?  Why lose yardage?  It was ******* beyond moronic even if you were a ball-less **** that didn't want to try to get a few extra yards. To get to the left hash mark?  That was stupid too.  **** both these morons. 

again, I didn't like taking a knee BUT the bottom line is our K missed not one but TWO makeable FGs.  

[glenn31]

3 hours ago, nyjunc said:

It was mark Mosley not Bahr,  this thread is old.  My new most painful loss is the title game at Pitt.  I fully believe we were better than Pitt but we couldn't regroup after upsetting the Pats and we came out flat.  if we don't come out flat we win that game and might finally have another SB trophy.  

Ahh... Thanks for the correction, though I think Bahr may have been on that team at one point.

Bahr and Belichick look like they could be brothers.

[nyjunc]

1 minute ago, glenn31 said:

Ahh... Thanks for the correction, though I think Bahr may have been on that team at one point.

Bahr and Belichick look like they could be brothers.

Bahr did kick for Cleveland in that era but I believe he got hurt which led them to sign Moseley.  he missed a few FGs including a chip shot for the win before finally kicking the game winner against us. 

[chirorob]

2 hours ago, nyjunc said:

I didn't like taking a knee but the same people complaining about that would have thrown the remote through their TV if Curtis fumbled or lost yardage. The K has to make one of those 2 makeable kicks.

2005 was a disaster

He HAS to make that kick.   Has to.   Curtis was not much of a fumbler, and I'd rather give it to the supposed workhorse of the franchise to make it easier for the dude who just choked.

Flip side.  Cowher in the same position.   Does he kneel, or give it to the Bus to pick up a few and make it just a bit easier.

[nyjunc]

6 minutes ago, chirorob said:

He HAS to make that kick.   Has to.   Curtis was not much of a fumbler, and I'd rather give it to the supposed workhorse of the franchise to make it easier for the dude who just choked.

Flip side.  Cowher in the same position.   Does he kneel, or give it to the Bus to pick up a few and make it just a bit easier.

I don't know, he gave it to Bettis a year later at Indy and he fumbled.  lucky for them they held on but that could have cost them the game.