To all the Jets fans who do not want Favre...

[flgreen]

I heard that Farve is headed to the Dolfags, They are all happy over here in dolfag land.They are saying that Jason taylor is the reason for this deal. Farve to a crappy team like the dolfags ,I couldn't be more happier either.

Haven't heard much on South Florida sports talk radio about that. A couple of crazy fans calling in, but nothing from anyone credible.

Why would Farve want to go there? If he comes back he would want to go to someone that has a chance for a ring. The Dolphins will be improved this year, but they are miles from the big game.

Don't see any chance of that happening, unless Green Bay trades him to Miami to punish him. Then he would retire for sure.

IMO there are only a few teams that Farve would agree to go to. The Jets and Dolphins aren't one of them. He would probably like to go to the Vikings, that has 0 chance of happening.

[BroadwayJ667]

BREAKING NEWS

124 is the new Favorite toon

blind faith brother, is not a good thing

[124]

Ronnie Brown showed a lot of promise, Ginn played well when he became more acclimated in the offense, and John Beck will get there.

Besides, much brighter than Klemens, Jones and Coles.

Promise? 1 1,000 yard season and injures.

Ted Ginn with his amazing 35 receptions?

The Jets are one of the better teams in the AFC, a .500 team at least. People are taking way, way too much into the 2007 record of this team. Way too much.

[124]

Talking football like...

...praising Ronnie Brown, who (talented as he is/was) has yet to complete an NFL season, coming off a torn ACL, as showing "promise"?

...touting Ted Ginn, the joke of the 2007 draft, "played well" because he almost had 70 yards in a game once last year?

...being the only person (Dolphins fans included) talking up John Beck, who may actually have been a worse draft pick than Ginn, and who is as likely to be #3 on the depth chart as he is to start this year?

...bashing some guy named Klemens, a RB with 3 consecutive years (and counting) with more yards than Ronnie Brown has ever had once, and a receiver who would consider Ted Ginn's best game to be garbage for himself (since the team lost)?

All of which certainly belong in a thread about Brett Favre.

Yes. Let's talk about football.

Awesome smack down Sperm.

[124]

Yes yes, let's give a second rounder up for a QB who will throw twice as many interceptions as touchdowns. Screw building on the foundation we've laid, take a wrecking ball to that plan. It's time to go for broke and give us the has-been that we need.

Really? Name one time Brett Favre threw 2x the INT's than TD's in a season and please go back and watch some games from the 2008 season, a team with no running game until Ryan Grant came along in December, and a worse Offensive Line than what we have for the 2008 season. Our 1&2 receivers are better and our Running Game is much, much better.

Please continue with the nonsense spew.

[Aqua4ever04]

Talking football like...

...praising Ronnie Brown, who (talented as he is/was) has yet to complete an NFL season, coming off a torn ACL, as showing "promise"?

...touting Ted Ginn, the joke of the 2007 draft, "played well" because he almost had 70 yards in a game once last year?

...being the only person (Dolphins fans included) talking up John Beck, who may actually have been a worse draft pick than Ginn, and who is as likely to be #3 on the depth chart as he is to start this year?

...bashing some guy named Klemens, a RB with 3 consecutive years (and counting) with more yards than Ronnie Brown has ever had once, and a receiver who would consider Ted Ginn's best game to be garbage for himself (since the team lost)?

All of which certainly belong in a thread about Brett Favre.

Yes. Let's talk about football.

Yeah, he led the league in yards from scrimmage in the first half of the season. That's pretty promising.

Ted Ginn the joke of the draft? Says who? You? He was going to Houston at 10 if Miami didn't take him so I don't see the problem there. You'll eat your words on this one. Calling him a bust after a rookie season on that Dolphins team really questions your credibility.

Again, a rookie on that Dolphins team being a bust, you can't be serious.

Klemens has done nothing, Brown has way more talent than Jones (if he stays healthy) and in 2 years Ginn will be a far better receiver than Coles. So yes, I'll take Miami's 3 over NY's 3.

[124]

Aqua that is all speculation and hope that can easily lead you to the bottle when it doesn't work out. Ronnie has to come back from a torn ACL and Ginn showed flashes at getting the deep ball last season, but thats it. You can't tell much in 35 receptions, thats for sure.

Ginn won't be better than Jerricho Cotchery and he was the joke of the draft. Dolphin fans wanted Brady Quinn and now they try to make it out like Ginn's a god and they're happy with the pick when back last April they were all furious, bringing their torches to Joe Robbie about to set it on fire.

BTW dude, its Clemens.

You don't see me on your board saying Heck or Fenne or McLoser. Comeon dude. You're better than that.

[GangGreen]

Really? Name one time Brett Favre threw 2x the INT's than TD's in a season and please go back and watch some games from the 2008 season, a team with no running game until Ryan Grant came along in December, and a worse Offensive Line than what we have for the 2008 season. Our 1&2 receivers are better and our Running Game is much, much better.

Please continue with the nonsense spew.

Wow, whoever actually think that he throws two times as many interceptions as touchdowns is stupid. Ever since he got the record for touchdowns, everyone just criticises Favre because he has the record for most interceptions. He has 442 TDs and 288 INTs. Wow, Jetlag, you're right, he does have twice as many interceptions as touchdowns!

[flgreen]

Wow, whoever actually think that he throws two times as many interceptions as touchdowns is stupid. Ever since he got the record for touchdowns, everyone just criticises Favre because he has the record for most interceptions. He has 442 TDs and 288 INTs. Wow, Jetlag, you're right, he does have twice as many interceptions as touchdowns!

No body is questioning whether Farve's a great Qb or not, the real question is, does he fit the Jets?

Farve had a very good season last year. In 06 and 05, not so much. he is on the down side TD to ints. Over the years I have noticed that when players get older in the NFL. it isn't gradual, it's like they hit a brick wall. Just finished.

Farve has changed his mind 4 times since March. What would prevent him from just saying screw it, and retiring in Oct.?

I really can't believe any one can truly say Clemens is a bust based on last year. Not saying he is going to be a star, but you have to give him a chance. If this were 10 years ago of course I would jump on Farve. It's not. This is a 39 YO (in Oct) QB, who doesn't know if he wants to play or not.

He is not going to help Clemens develop. He won't help Rogers develop.

It just doesn't make any sense. Hell, why not bring in Marino?

[Jetkid94]

If and when you ever get married, do yourself a huge favour and have your WIFE handle the finances.

I understand the money difference, but look atthe player difference.

[124]

Because Favre DID play well in 2008 with a team that did not have as much talent as the 2008 Jets have, including the Offensive Line. Brett Favre is coming of a very good season and by bringing him in it shows the Jets are committed to winning now, not seeing what they have in their 2006 2nd round pick, who at this point looks like he's either going to sink or swim. If Clemens doesn't pan out and Favre does well in Baltimore or Tampa Bay, you flgreen and others will all be sorry.

You do what you have to do to get Favre, coming of one of his best seasons, when you have a big question mark at the QB position and you have tremendous, aging talent at your key positions.

[GangGreen]

Aqua that is all speculation and hope that can easily lead you to the bottle when it doesn't work out. Ronnie has to come back from a torn ACL and Ginn showed flashes at getting the deep ball last season, but thats it. You can't tell much in 35 receptions, thats for sure.

Ginn won't be better than Jerricho Cotchery and he was the joke of the draft. Dolphin fans wanted Brady Quinn and now they try to make it out like Ginn's a god and they're happy with the pick when back last April they were all furious, bringing their torches to Joe Robbie about to set it on fire.

BTW dude, its Clemens.

You don't see me on your board saying Heck or Fenne or McLoser. Comeon dude. You're better than that.

Exactly. He an ignorant Dolphins fan who's just mad because his team sucks. Don't worry, though, if you guys trade for Brady and Moss, you might almost get 2 wins this season!

[shodan9999]

All time touchdowns leader.

All time yardage leader.

All time leader in consecutive games played not by a K/P.

Took his team to the verge of the Super Bowl last season.

I don't know about you, but I want a chance to be a contender in this league. Brett Favre, even if it would only be for a year or two, would give us that. Chad Pennington and Kellen Clemens arn't giving us any better than 10-6 in 2008.

I forgot some Jets fans are okay with that though. As long as its "progress" its okay.

That was then...this is now...I always loved to watch him play...but now...he thinks he is bigger than the game...and everyone must bow to his wishes....he would not be worth the money...for what two years at most...and Mangini would tell him to leave the indecisions in Mississppi....

[GangGreen]

That was then...this is now...I always loved to watch him play...but now...he thinks he is bigger than the game...and everyone must bow to his wishes....he would not be worth the money...for what two years at most...and Mangini would tell him to leave the indecisions in Mississppi....

Oh yeah, you're right. It would be smarter to not spend money on Brett Favre and go 7-9 with a QB who can't throw 40 yards, rather than get Favre, a 3-time MVP who is still championship-caliber, make the Jets Super Bowl contenders for the next 2 or 3 years.

[flgreen]

Because Favre DID play well in 2008 with a team that did not have as much talent as the 2008 Jets have, including the Offensive Line. Brett Favre is coming of a very good season and by bringing him in it shows the Jets are committed to winning now, not seeing what they have in their 2006 2nd round pick, who at this point looks like he's either going to sink or swim. If Clemens doesn't pan out and Favre does well in Baltimore or Tampa Bay, you flgreen and others will all be sorry.

You do what you have to do to get Favre, coming of one of his best seasons, when you have a big question mark at the QB position and you have tremendous, aging talent at your key positions.

No where as sorry as I would be if Farve were to retire during this season. I believe that is a very real possibility.

He is going to hate NY. There is even much more of a likelihood that Farve would crash this year, then Clemens will be a bust.

This is nothing personnal 124, I just truly think this is a very bad idea.

Actually as I said before, I strongly doubt Farve would even consider coming to NY. He would hate it. From an outsiders stand point, the Jets are not poised to take the Super Bowl this year. 1998 Farve or not.

The only thing I will be sorry about if Clemens doesn't work out, is that Clemens didn't work out. Farve, for one year just doesn't fit this team.

[#27TheDominator]

Yeah, he led the league in yards from scrimmage in the first half of the season. That's pretty promising.

Ted Ginn the joke of the draft? Says who? You? He was going to Houston at 10 if Miami didn't take him so I don't see the problem there. You'll eat your words on this one. Calling him a bust after a rookie season on that Dolphins team really questions your credibility.

Again, a rookie on that Dolphins team being a bust, you can't be serious.

Klemens has done nothing, Brown has way more talent than Jones (if he stays healthy) and in 2 years Ginn will be a far better receiver than Coles. So yes, I'll take Miami's 3 over NY's 3.

Gunning for BZ's prize?

[slats]

No body is questioning whether Farve's a great Qb or not, the real question is, does he fit the Jets?

Farve had a very good season last year. In 06 and 05, not so much. he is on the down side TD to ints. Over the years I have noticed that when players get older in the NFL. it isn't gradual, it's like they hit a brick wall. Just finished.

Farve has changed his mind 4 times since March. What would prevent him from just saying screw it, and retiring in Oct.?

I really can't believe any one can truly say Clemens is a bust based on last year. Not saying he is going to be a star, but you have to give him a chance. If this were 10 years ago of course I would jump on Farve. It's not. This is a 39 YO (in Oct) QB, who doesn't know if he wants to play or not.

He is not going to help Clemens develop. He won't help Rogers develop.

It just doesn't make any sense. Hell, why not bring in Marino?

Good posts on the subject.

Favre is not a good fit for the Jets at all. Back when Joe Montana was playing longer than he should, that sort of cerebral game manager would've been a nice fit here. Chad Pennington would be the perfect fit here if he had anything at all left in his arm.

The Jets don't want or need a gunslinger. They're not looking for that kind of improvisation. They want someone to step up and run their offense. They want a company guy.

They're also really pulling for Clemens to make them look smart after passing on Jay Cutler in the same draft. They're not ready to pull that plug yet, or undermine Kellen for some pipedream about what Brett Favre once was. They want to see Clemens thru, and really have to at this point.

[Jade Green]

Talking football like...

...praising Ronnie Brown, who (talented as he is/was) has yet to complete an NFL season, coming off a torn ACL, as showing "promise"?

...touting Ted Ginn, the joke of the 2007 draft, "played well" because he almost had 70 yards in a game once last year?

...being the only person (Dolphins fans included) talking up John Beck, who may actually have been a worse draft pick than Ginn, and who is as likely to be #3 on the depth chart as he is to start this year?

...bashing some guy named Klemens, a RB with 3 consecutive years (and counting) with more yards than Ronnie Brown has ever had once, and a receiver who would consider Ted Ginn's best game to be garbage for himself (since the team lost)?

All of which certainly belong in a thread about Brett Favre.

Yes. Let's talk about football.

[scionce]

I like Clemens but who would you rather him learn under? Chad Pennington or Brett Favre?

dude are you kidding me? favre is a great QB, but he is nowhere near as cerebral as pennington. both are fearless in the pocket, favre just has the better tools. but pennington is a much better teacher than brett "what's a nickel defense" favre.

"yeah, kid... this is how you do it: pick a guy in the huddle and rifle it in there no matter what..."

no the kid doesn't need to be learning that sh!t.

Oh yeah, you're right. It would be smarter to not spend money on Brett Favre and go 7-9 with a QB who can't throw 40 yards, rather than get Favre, a 3-time MVP who is still championship-caliber, make the Jets Super Bowl contenders for the next 2 or 3 years.

flgreen is right, the '08 NYJ squad is not to be mistaken for a team set for a championship run. that fact alone dictates that favre will not be changing one of the colors on his uniform. after getting so close last year, he won't settle for anything less than an actual SB contending team.

which we aren't... yet... but we should be in 2-3 years, this season included. we really do need to find out now if clemens can get it done.

[Thai Jet]

It's obvious you aren't here to talk about football, so why sign up for a football MB?

Post something that makes some sense and I might. BTW

[Thai Jet]

Yeah, he led the league in yards from scrimmage in the first half of the season. That's pretty promising.

Ted Ginn the joke of the draft? Says who? You? He was going to Houston at 10 if Miami didn't take him so I don't see the problem there. You'll eat your words on this one. Calling him a bust after a rookie season on that Dolphins team really questions your credibility.

Again, a rookie on that Dolphins team being a bust, you can't be serious.

Klemens has done nothing, Brown has way more talent than Jones (if he stays healthy) and in 2 years Ginn will be a far better receiver than Coles. So yes, I'll take Miami's 3 over NY's 3.

LMAO You must have missed the Dolfag press conf. after the pick. Funny stuff.

[124]

Clemens is more like Favre than he is Pennington. Sorry, but what is Chad going to teach him? How to dump the ball off 3 or 4 yards short on a 3rd and 7? How to throw clutch 4th quarter interceptions? Sure Brett has had his history with injuries, but I havn't seen as pathetic of a performance routinely in the 4th quarter game after game as I saw in Chad Pennington in 2007.

Brett Favre takes risks and chances, and thats what you need to do as an NFL Quarterback if you want to win... unless you have a Top 3 Defense, Top 3 Running Game and Top 3 Offensive Line. Those don't usually come together all too often.

Favre would be much, much better tutor to Pennington. The only people Pennington would be worthy of helping out would be the other Quarterbacks of his kind, I.E., Game Managers. Not Quarterbacks. Real Quarterbacks that is.

[flgreen]

Clemens is more like Favre than he is Pennington. Sorry, but what is Chad going to teach him? How to dump the ball off 3 or 4 yards short on a 3rd and 7? How to throw clutch 4th quarter interceptions? Sure Brett has had his history with injuries, but I havn't seen as pathetic of a performance routinely in the 4th quarter game after game as I saw in Chad Pennington in 2007.

Brett Favre takes risks and chances, and thats what you need to do as an NFL Quarterback if you want to win... unless you have a Top 3 Defense, Top 3 Running Game and Top 3 Offensive Line. Those don't usually come together all too often.

Favre would be much, much better tutor to Pennington. The only people Pennington would be worthy of helping out would be the other Quarterbacks of his kind, I.E., Game Managers. Not Quarterbacks. Real Quarterbacks that is.

You have answered your own question.

Yes, physical tools wise, Farve and Clemens are similar, in that they both have strong arms. Farve's arm is one of the strongest I have seen. Up there with Elway, Marino, and Namath. A strong arm isn't something you can teach, either you have it, or you don't. Browning Nagal had an arm in that category. He also had a brick for a brain. Clemens has a strong arm, is mobile, and also had a 3.5 GPA. He can learn a lot more from Pennington, then he can from Farve.

Pennington never had a "strong arm", but his arm was strong enough to make all the NFL throws. Fate dealt him a bad hand to play. Two major shoulder surgeries. His arm was gone. If Farve had the same injuries as Pennington he would have been out of the league years ago. Pennington hangs in because he knows how to be a QB in the NFL. Until the last two years he had a stealer TD to int ratio. I don't believe he had thrown a pick in the red zone until two years ago.. His father was a coach, Pennington was a Rhodes scholar candidate. He knows how to be a QB.

Yes, one of the things he can teach Clemens is when to throw those 4-7 yard passes if the deep route is covered. It is very difficult to throw long balls against today's cover 2 and 3 D's. The way to do it is to have a strong running game, a high completion percentage on short passes that keep moving the chains, a good play action, and when the safeties cheap up, have a strong arm to punish them deep. Clemens has the arm to get the ball upfield 40-60 yards when the time is right. he is also blessed with having an older QB with him who he likes, and respects, who is willing to help him develop.

If Clemens has the tools to be a good NFL QB, and he seems to, if he is good enough to unseat Pennington, he is in the perfect situation to develop into an outstanding QB. You talk about taking risks. I would much rather take a risk on a young strong armed QB, who has an excellent, and willing mentor, to develop into an excellent franchise QB for the next ten years, Then trash the young QB to take a risk on an over the hill HOF QB who maybe, maybe gives you one good season, and maybe quits on you in the middle of this season.

IMHO Farve just doesn't fit the NY Jets

[SayNoToDMC]

Clemens is more like Favre than he is Pennington. Sorry, but what is Chad going to teach him? How to dump the ball off 3 or 4 yards short on a 3rd and 7? How to throw clutch 4th quarter interceptions? Sure Brett has had his history with injuries, but I havn't seen as pathetic of a performance routinely in the 4th quarter game after game as I saw in Chad Pennington in 2007.

Brett Favre takes risks and chances, and thats what you need to do as an NFL Quarterback if you want to win... unless you have a Top 3 Defense, Top 3 Running Game and Top 3 Offensive Line. Those don't usually come together all too often.

Are you kidding? I don't want to see Pennington as our starting QB next year, but I would be more then happy to see him brought back as a Jets coach one day. He probably has a better understanding of the game and the QB position in particular then anyone on our coaching staff. Brett Favre is as blessed physically as any QB to ever enter the league, he's a freak, if he had Pennington's head on his shoulders to go along with his physical tools it's scary to think how good he would have been. I'd rather pay Pennington 6 million though to mentor Clemens then Favre 13.

Favre would be much, much better tutor to Pennington. The only people Pennington would be worthy of helping out would be the other Quarterbacks of his kind, I.E., Game Managers. Not Quarterbacks. Real Quarterbacks that is.

by this reasoning mumbles shouldn't be capable of coaching his way out of a wet paper bag and Herm Edwards should be a top coach in the league. Seeing as Belichick's fat ass doesn't look like he can do a lap around the field and Herm Edwards played 9 years in the league. Favre having superior arm strength to anyone in the league isn't going to make him a good coach. The same way a lot of great hitters in baseball where awful hitting coaches because they have had tools their entire career that can't be coached.

[#27TheDominator]

Why do you have to learn from somebody that is like you? It seems that you can learn a hell of a lot more from somebody that is different. Nobody wants Clemens to emulate Pennington, but that doesn't mean that there is nothing to learn from him.

[Bob]

Yeah, he led the league in yards from scrimmage in the first half of the season. That's pretty promising.

Ted Ginn the joke of the draft? Says who? You? He was going to Houston at 10 if Miami didn't take him so I don't see the problem there. You'll eat your words on this one. Calling him a bust after a rookie season on that Dolphins team really questions your credibility.

Again, a rookie on that Dolphins team being a bust, you can't be serious.

Klemens has done nothing, Brown has way more talent than Jones (if he stays healthy) and in 2 years Ginn will be a far better receiver than Coles. So yes, I'll take Miami's 3 over NY's 3.

I love Dolphins fans. They never, ever, let reality get in their way. I wish DW2 was still here to tell us how the Dolphins are going to win the Super Bowl this year.

[KudosForND]

Yeah, he led the league in yards from scrimmage in the first half of the season. That's pretty promising.

Ted Ginn the joke of the draft? Says who? You? He was going to Houston at 10 if Miami didn't take him so I don't see the problem there. You'll eat your words on this one. Calling him a bust after a rookie season on that Dolphins team really questions your credibility.

Again, a rookie on that Dolphins team being a bust, you can't be serious.

Klemens has done nothing, Brown has way more talent than Jones (if he stays healthy) and in 2 years Ginn will be a far better receiver than Coles. So yes, I'll take Miami's 3 over NY's 3.

Beck has done nothing. Brown is better but will get hurt again, 2 years ginn should be better then coles but he wont be. jets got oline to help out their 3

[GangGreen]

I love Dolphins fans. They never, ever, let reality get in their way. I wish DW2 was still here to tell us how the Dolphins are going to win the Super Bowl this year.

They will, they almost have one whole almost good player!

[BroadwayJ667]

They will, they almost have one whole almost good player!

who, i don't know any?

[GangGreen]

Me neither, I was just trying to give them some hope.

[Irish Jet]

I've been away for a while and I'm only hearing about this whole Favre scenario now.

If he does get released, which IMO would be the best option for the Packers right now, I would indeed support the Jets going after him. I'm not as low on our QB's (Especially Chad) as most on this board are but when you get a chance to turn maybe the only glaring weakness on your offense into your greatest strength, then you should simply take it without any questions. Yes it may only be for the short term, but a lot of other players on this team are likely going to be short term impact guys too. I'm thinking Coles, Faneca, Jones etc.

All of the off-season moves were of a 'win now' mentality so when this kind of oppurtunity comes up IMO you have to take it, Favre wouldn't exactly be an everyday free agent, he's a legendary HOF QB who still seems to have plenty left in the tank. Right now with Clemens or Pennington I think we can be a legitimate playoff contender, with Favre I think we could be a superbowl contender.

He may have pissed away some of his legacy in Green BAy with this whole 'will he, wont he' sagam but that does not make him any less of a player.

So if #4 does magically end up in the Green of New York, you can sure as Hell bet that I'll welcome him with open arms.

[madmike1]

What are we giving up for him?

[madmike1]

Clemens is more like Favre than he is Pennington. Sorry, but what is Chad going to teach him? How to dump the ball off 3 or 4 yards short on a 3rd and 7? How to throw clutch 4th quarter interceptions? Sure Brett has had his history with injuries, but I havn't seen as pathetic of a performance routinely in the 4th quarter game after game as I saw in Chad Pennington in 2007.

Brett Favre takes risks and chances, and thats what you need to do as an NFL Quarterback if you want to win... unless you have a Top 3 Defense, Top 3 Running Game and Top 3 Offensive Line. Those don't usually come together all too often.

Favre would be much, much better tutor to Pennington. The only people Pennington would be worthy of helping out would be the other Quarterbacks of his kind, I.E., Game Managers. Not Quarterbacks. Real Quarterbacks that is.

You can't play like Favre does and win super bowls anymore.

[Irish Jet]

You can't play like Favre does and win super bowls anymore.

Yeah, I mean, It's not like he came close to that last season or anything.

[scionce]

Clemens is more like Favre than he is Pennington. Sorry, but what is Chad going to teach him? How to dump the ball off 3 or 4 yards short on a 3rd and 7? How to throw clutch 4th quarter interceptions? Sure Brett has had his history with injuries, but I havn't seen as pathetic of a performance routinely in the 4th quarter game after game as I saw in Chad Pennington in 2007.

Brett Favre takes risks and chances, and thats what you need to do as an NFL Quarterback if you want to win... unless you have a Top 3 Defense, Top 3 Running Game and Top 3 Offensive Line. Those don't usually come together all too often.

Favre would be much, much better tutor to Pennington. The only people Pennington would be worthy of helping out would be the other Quarterbacks of his kind, I.E., Game Managers. Not Quarterbacks. Real Quarterbacks that is.

how about what brett "what's a nickel defense" favre can't teach him? how about how to read a defense and make the proper audible if/when necessary? how about how to recognize blitz packages? how about how to not make every offseason about him but about the team and its success? how about not making stupid mistakes "taking risks and chances" in a division that has the established pats, the up and coming bills and the threatening (LOL) dolphins? how about favre has no interest in helping the development of a young QB as evidenced by a statement he made after the pack drafted rodgers?

penny's screw-ups were mostly on outs, which everyone already knows he can't throw. those who can't teach. are we learning yet?

btw, we could very well be looking at the beginnings of a top 3 D.