Morrissey Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 He's probably just gotten off to a slow start, but he was a different hitter last year when he got back from the wrist injury, which doesn't go away quickly. He also isn't hitting in front of Manny Ramirez anymore. He could becoming Mo Vaughn before our very eyes. Once Vaughn turned 32-33 he hit a wall. Obviouisly we can bump this if/when he turns it around, which he probably will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCarl40 Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 None of the Sox are off to a great start. Hopefully they start turning it around soon, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicBizkit87 Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 Wasn't Youkilis doing fantastic? I think he was the only player doing great on the team though. Not even Pedroia is doing well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFSIKH Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 Wasn't Youkilis doing fantastic? I think he was the only player doing great on the team though. Not even Pedroia is doing well. Yeah he is crushing the ball hitting over .500. The problem is outside of Bay at .286 and Rocco at .270ish. The rest are too close to the Mendoza line. When Tek is one of your leading batters at .238, you are *****ed. Ty D I would say yes to the Papi question. I do not see him hitting 50 HRs again. He should be good for 25-35 though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonEJet Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 Youk may be the best player in the AL right now THe Big Fizzle is no longer injecting....now sucks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugg Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 Yeah he is crushing the ball hitting over .500. The problem is outside of Bay at .286 and Rocco at .270ish. The rest are too close to the Mendoza line. When Tek is one of your leading batters at .238, you are *****ed. Ty D I would say yes to the Papi question. I do not see him hitting 50 HRs again. He should be good for 25-35 though. Swisher has been a find, but was kinda hoping the Yanks picked up Baldelli as a bench guy. If this guy ever puts his trouble behind him for good(as much as he can, anyway) he can be a very good hitter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 Yeah he is crushing the ball hitting over .500. The problem is outside of Bay at .286 and Rocco at .270ish. The rest are too close to the Mendoza line. When Tek is one of your leading batters at .238, you are *****ed. Ty D I would say yes to the Papi question. I do not see him hitting 50 HRs again. He should be good for 25-35 though. That isn't bad though. Now that he is off of roids along with everyone else he will still be an above average hitter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PS17 Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 That isn't bad though. Now that he is off of roids along with everyone else he will still be an above average hitter. I agree 100%, he was definitely juicing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GimmeShelter Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 He's probably just gotten off to a slow start, but he was a different hitter last year when he got back from the wrist injury, which doesn't go away quickly. He also isn't hitting in front of Manny Ramirez anymore. He could becoming Mo Vaughn before our very eyes. Once Vaughn turned 32-33 he hit a wall. Obviouisly we can bump this if/when he turns it around, which he probably will. Well Vaughn got hurt. Chronic knee condition. I am not sure we will ever know how much Ortiz's wrist is affecting him. Delgado was lost after his. Anyones numbers would suffer somewhat without Manny's protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otter Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 Ortiz is on the downside of his career and it doesn't help that the Sox got rid of his protection. Manny scared the crap out of opposing pitchers. His loss affects the way that lineup is viewed. They have solid hitters in Pedroia, Bay and Youk. Lowell, Varitek and Ortiz are in their twilight years. Drew can be very good but he always getting hurt. Ellsbury is OK. I don't know enough about Lowrie to know how good he is. That being said, there's over 150 games left in the season and the Sox will be there in the end. If Ortiz's wrist is alright he'll hit 25-30 homeruns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCarl40 Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 I agree 100%, he was definitely juicing. Proof? Link? Anything besides conjecture? A wrist injury is not easy to overcome as a ball player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrissey Posted April 14, 2009 Author Share Posted April 14, 2009 Proof? Link? Anything besides conjecture? A wrist injury is not easy to overcome as a ball player. How about this... http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ortizsteroids Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 LOL that one again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCarl40 Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 How about this... http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ortizsteroids No positive test? No admission? Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guido Monzino Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 No positive test? No admission? Carry on. You have a positive test or admission on Sammy Sosa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCarl40 Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 You have a positive test or admission on Sammy Sosa? What does this thread have to do with Sosa? When did I claim he did took steroids? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFSIKH Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 You have a positive test or admission on Sammy Sosa? No only a corked bat. Do you have one on Big Papi? No. Do you have a picture like GiamnROID where you can clearly see a difference between then and now? No. Only baseless accusations. Which is another example of the skank jealousy. You all emphatically defend Pujols and Howard even though they have done things no one else has done early in there careers. No one out side of one McGwire and Canseco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guido Monzino Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 No only a corked bat. Do you have one on Big Papi? No. Do you have a picture like GiamnROID where you can clearly see a difference between then and now? No. Only baseless accusations. Which is another example of the skank jealousy. You all emphatically defend Pujols and Howard even though they have done things no one else has done early in there careers. No one out side of one McGwire and Canseco. Admit it. You're both just being blind homers. Look at Ortiz in his rookie season with the Twins, then look at him in 2004. There is no reasonable person that could believe a human being could increase the size of their body (or their HEAD - have you seen that guy's head up close? It's like a watermelon) that much without the use of steroids. Bottom line: If Big Poopie didn't play for the Sox, you'd have him lumped in with the rest of the alleged steroid users out there like Canseco, McGwire and Sosa. But your mind won't let you believe that your fat hero did anything wrong. But puh-lease. Stop thinking like a typical Boston fan for once, and see the world for what it is. Open your eyes. There's a whole world out there you people are missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Let's be real. We all know manny and Ortiz both used among others. There are plenty more Yankees that used as well as Sox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugg Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Let's be real. We all know manny and Ortiz both used among others. There are plenty more Yankees that used as well as Sox. COuldn't say for certain about anyone,and Ramirez shared the Cleveland clubhouse with Belle and Thome-one definite and one very likely roid boy. But Manny is simply a great hitter. A miserable human being, but an all-time great hitter. Ortiz is a complete different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Look at Ortiz in his rookie season with the Twins, then look at him in 2004. There is no reasonable person that could believe a human being could increase the size of their body (or their HEAD - have you seen that guy's head up close? It's like a watermelon) that much without the use of steroids. Weak anecdotal evidence = weak argument He wasn't exactly a stick figure when he was with the Twins and his melon looks plenty big in this picture: I'm not saying he's beyond reproach, because I don't think any player is. However, you're going to have to do better than the argument you presented for this "reasonable person" to be convinced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFSIKH Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Let's be real. We all know manny and Ortiz both used among others. There are plenty more Yankees that used as well as Sox. True. I think it is all plausible deniability. I did not find a problem with A-Rod's excuse. It is better not to know and reap then benefits. Then know and try to deny. Admit it. You're both just being blind homers. Look at Ortiz in his rookie season with the Twins, then look at him in 2004. There is no reasonable person that could believe a human being could increase the size of their body (or their HEAD - have you seen that guy's head up close? It's like a watermelon) that much without the use of steroids. Bottom line: If Big Poopie didn't play for the Sox, you'd have him lumped in with the rest of the alleged steroid users out there like Canseco, McGwire and Sosa. But your mind won't let you believe that your fat hero did anything wrong. But puh-lease. Stop thinking like a typical Boston fan for once, and see the world for what it is. Open your eyes. There's a whole world out there you people are missing. You are the clueless one. I am not saying he did not use anything, but he is not some 180lber in his rookie card. He has a big head, fat arms and shall we saw a bit chunky. Again, he was a big dude as a kid. He is a big dude now unlike one GiambROID. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guido Monzino Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 David Ortiz went from a scrub platoon player to a 50 homer MVP stud. He is as clear a steroid case as anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 David Ortiz went from a scrub platoon player to a 50 homer MVP stud. He is as clear a steroid case as anyone. - Baseball America had him in their Top 100 prospects in 1998 - In 1997, totaled .318/32/130 between High-A/AA/AAA/Majors as a (supposedly) 21yo - Put up a line of .315/30/100 in the PCL in 1999 (1.002 OPS) - In his time with the Twins, suffered two separate wrist injuries and hurt his knee in 2002 - Had a manager in Tom Kelly, who had a reputation for mismanaging young players and relying on useless veterans (ie. giving way too much PT to Ron Coomer over Ortiz) My point in all this is that he wasn't a guy who was a middling minor leaguer that suddenly developed a power stroke with the aid of PEDs. Now, he could've been taking them since he was 18 for all I know, but I don't see any solid evidence that he suddenly started using when he got to Boston. Besides, hitting behind Manny Ramirez is one of the best performance-enhancers a baseball player could hope for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugg Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Somewhere between his last season with the TWins-an organization that is known to be a good,stable judge of talent-and his first with the Sawx, at age 26, Ortiz goes from an average AL 1st baseman to the best in the league. This is known as UNPRECEDENTED. So either the Twins are idiots -which they're not based on their management over the past decade and half. Or something else happened. Ortiz was and is known to dissappear into the DR every winter. Gee, what can you get over the counter there? http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/o/ortizda01.shtml And he worked with the same exact trainer as A-rod. http://www.sportsofboston.com/2009/02/20/steroid-tainted-trainer-linked-to-a-rod-ortiz-pedro/ Again, if it's shown Jeter used, I wouldn't be shocked at this point. Even if Ortiz did use, so what? Seems like many of the pitchers used too. It's past time to get worked up about it either way. Better living through chemistry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious89x Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 The bottom line is: EVERYONE, and I mean EVERYONE in this era will always be questioned. No one is free and clear of these type of things especially when you were a failed product who all of a sudden learned to hit. I for one don't want to hear anything else. We've all cheered on cheaters, cheaters at some point have benefited our teams. That's the stain on this era, but I still love this game and just cause some scumbags felt they needed to illegally do it it wont' stop me. Everyone is a suspect. But no one is guilty until there's hard evidence. And that is a test, not conjecture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guido Monzino Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 The bottom line is: EVERYONE, and I mean EVERYONE in this era will always be questioned. No one is free and clear of these type of things especially when you were a failed product who all of a sudden learned to hit. I for one don't want to hear anything else. We've all cheered on cheaters, cheaters at some point have benefited our teams. That's the stain on this era, but I still love this game and just cause some scumbags felt they needed to illegally do it it wont' stop me. Everyone is a suspect. But no one is guilty until there's hard evidence. And that is a test, not conjecture Exactly. But the real bottom line is if Ortiz didn't play for Boston, everyone in New England would point the finger at him also. Big time. But because he wore that uniform, he, like every other "Idiot" is beyond reproach in their eyes . I think they way they see it, steroids existed in every MLB clubhouse except for in Fenway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Somewhere between his last season with the TWins-an organization that is known to be a good,stable judge of talent-and his first with the Sawx, at age 26, Ortiz goes from an average AL 1st baseman to the best in the league. This is known as UNPRECEDENTED. So either the Twins are idiots -which they're not based on their management over the past decade and half. Actually, Tom Kelly handled Ortiz about as poorly as possible. He hated his big swing and wanted him to be more compact and hit more balls the opposite way. Kelly also didn't think Ortiz was an adequate defender, so he limited him to DH'ing, which would've been fine, except that he only started 88 games there - for a team that only won 69 games. Kelly decided it was more important to find AB's for guys like Butch Huskey and Midre Cummings, with future-HOFer and defensive wizard Ron Coomer entrenched at 1B... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 especially when you were a failed product who all of a sudden learned to hit. I submit that he was always a very talented hitter whose progress was slowed due to injuries and mismanagement and his breakthrough came when he landed on a good team, batting 5th in a lineup that had Johnny Damon, Nomar Garciaparra, and Manny Ramirez hitting in front of him. At the very least, it's a better argument than "he has a big head". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Exactly. But the real bottom line is if Ortiz didn't play for Boston, everyone in New England would point the finger at him also. Big time. ...and if he played in Milwaukee, you wouldn't be so vocal about your belief that he used PEDs. Two-way street... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guido Monzino Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Actually, Tom Kelly handled Ortiz about as poorly as possible. He hated his big swing and wanted him to be more compact and hit more balls the opposite way. Kelly also didn't think Ortiz was an adequate defender, so he limited him to DH'ing, which would've been fine, except that he only started 88 games there - for a team that only won 69 games. Kelly decided it was more important to find AB's for guys like Butch Huskey and Midre Cummings, with future-HOFer and defensive wizard Ron Coomer entrenched at 1B... Tom Kelly >>>>>>>>> Terry Francona Kelly was pretty old school. Likely he just had insight into Ortiz's rampant juicing, and felt a moral obligation to play his clean players that actually earned their way to the big leagues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guido Monzino Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 ...and if he played in Milwaukee, you wouldn't be so vocal about your belief that he used PEDs. Two-way street... I'm equally vocal about all these chating bastards, Yankee or non-Yankee. I'm just being vocal on Ortiz because it is completely mind-boggling to me that the "Nation" can actually believe in their little heads that Ortiz gets a pass while others don't simply because they don't want to believe it is true. It's almost comical. Delusionalism at its finest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious89x Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 I submit that he was always a very talented hitter whose progress was slowed due to injuries and mismanagement and his breakthrough came when he landed on a good team, batting 5th in a lineup that had Johnny Damon, Nomar Garciaparra, and Manny Ramirez hitting in front of him. At the very least, it's a better argument than "he has a big head". It's true, but the talent all of a sudden came on like a green light which has been at times an indicator of PED usage. I guess my post is that we can put up arguments for each side but at the end, there's no test to say yes or no. The guy to me benefited from having Manny to protect him because his batting has fallen off a cliff since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Tom Kelly >>>>>>>>> Terry Francona Kelly was pretty old school. Likely he just had insight into Ortiz's rampant juicing, and felt a moral obligation to play his clean players that actually earned their way to the big leagues. Kelly was certainly old school, but the hardass, "my way or the highway" schtick isn't always the right approach. When your team is bad (as the Twins were in 2000), you need to let the kids play and make their mistakes so you can figure out what you have - so they don't go elsewhere to succeed. Marching out the likes of Ron Coomer and Butch Huskey certainly didn't help the Twins in the long-term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 It's true, but the talent all of a sudden came on like a green light which has been at times an indicator of PED usage. I guess my post is that we can put up arguments for each side but at the end, there's no test to say yes or no. The guy to me benefited from having Manny to protect him because his batting has fallen off a cliff since then. I guess you didn't read my other post, where I highlighted that he was killing Minor League pitching when he was (supposedly) 21-22 and suffered injuries and mismanagement at the Major League level. '98 - Fractured his wrist early in the season. '99 - Demoted after poor spring training. Killed it in the PCL. '01 - Fractured wrist again early in the year. '02 - Had knee scoped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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