Most talented unit, Offense or Defense

[Bruce Banner]

I think the Jets have a lot more talent on offense this year. If the offense doesn't do as well it has to be coaching.

[Lurker]

defense, easily

[PS17]

Offense

Holmes

Edwards

Ferguson

Mangold

Woody

Sanchez

Keller

Seven first rounders starting on offense. Greene ain't too shabby either.

If Schittenheimer can't get it together this year, then he's got to go, no questions asked.

[#27TheDominator]

I think the Jets have a lot more talent on offense this year. If the offense doesn't do as well it has to be coaching.

Oh stop with the Schottenheimer bashing already. Maybe Sanchez will suck. According to everything I've read here Revis is the #1 player at his position in decades. Harris is supposed to be almost as good as Willis. Revis, Gholston, Cromartie, Wilson, Pace, Thomas and Ellis were all first round picks. Jenkins and Taylor have multiple pro bowls. Scott is one of the highest paid at his postion and Poole is a 2nd round pick somebody loves. They had the #1 D in football and they upgraded the D adding Wilson, Cromartie, Pool and Taylor, losing only Rhodes, Sheppard and Douglas (who they still might sign).

The O is replacing a 7 time pro bowler with a raw rookie, sent pro bowl RB Jones and Leon Washington packing to be replaced by a quite likely spent Tomlinson and a 4th round pick who didn't produce much at USC. The only obvious upgrade is Holmes and he is out the 1st quarter of the season.

[Doggin94it]

Revis

Jenkins

Harris

Scott

Cromartie

That's 5 guys on D who have legitimate shots at the Probowl, with 2 possible (likely?) All pros.

On offense, you have:

D'Brick

Mangold

Woody

with probowl shots, and maybe - maybe - one of the receivers gets a shot (though I doubt it, based on the distribution of balls among the top 4 pass catchers). One all-pro type player (Mangold)

The O has more players on that next tier - Holmes, Edwards, Keller, Greene and Sanchez are all very, very good, Richardson is a pro's pro, Moore is underrated, and the only real question mark is Ducasse/Slauson at LG.

But the D has more elite talent at the top.

[villain_the_foe]

This was a very good question, I had to think about this for about 10 mins.

I had to go with the defense not just because of the talent, but also that we have a defensive minded Coach.

Our Offense is looking extremely promising, especially with Holmes added to the mix.

Our defense though, whew!....Its ugly out there...in a GOOD way! lol.

Big Jinx (Still the best move Tanny ever made IMO, Built a Defense around a legit anchor)

Scott

Leonhard

The Island that is Revis (its been a long time since the Jets had a player that was arguably the best at his position, though Revis is no argument).

Cro

Wilson

Harris

Pouha and Devito stepping up (major key in keeping Jinx healthy)

Ellis (probowler)

Pace

Taylor

Not to mention the supporting casts in Ighedibo, Pool, Westerman and Gholston being back at his natural position.

This defense could go down as the best Defense in Jets history by far and possibly the top 5 to top 10 in the history of the NFL. Its that serious. I dont look at the Jets offense and see them being in the top 10 offenses of all time.

However, I do see this offense being good enough and complimenting the Defense enough to make it to the superbowl and to even win it. Thats the most important thing anyway.

[Bruce Banner]

Oh stop with the Schottenheimer bashing already. Maybe Sanchez will suck. According to everything I've read here Revis is the #1 player at his position in decades. Harris is supposed to be almost as good as Willis. Revis, Gholston, Cromartie, Wilson, Pace, Thomas and Ellis were all first round picks. Jenkins and Taylor have multiple pro bowls. Scott is one of the highest paid at his postion and Poole is a 2nd round pick somebody loves. They had the #1 D in football and they upgraded the D adding Wilson, Cromartie, Pool and Taylor, losing only Rhodes, Sheppard and Douglas (who they still might sign).

The O is replacing a 7 time pro bowler with a raw rookie, sent pro bowl RB Jones and Leon Washington packing to be replaced by a quite likely spent Tomlinson and a 4th round pick who didn't produce much at USC. The only obvious upgrade is Holmes and he is out the 1st quarter of the season.

Eventually Schotty will be gone and then will see if he deserved all the knob polishing he got.

- You list Gholston and Bryan Thomas being first round picks as part of your argument. If draft position is so important than Braylon Edwards is better than Darrelle Revis.

- Jenkins and Taylor have multiple pro bowls but Taylor is over the hill and expected to be a part time player. If he was the same player he was when he was going to the pro bowl he would be the starter over Thomas.

- Yes, Scott is one of the highest paid players at his position. Doesn't prove he's talented. And Scott went undrafted, in other sections you place great importance on draft position. Back when Jamarcus Russell was the fourth highest paid player in the league, was he any good?

- They had the number one D with the same players that Mangini couldn't crack the top ten with. Coaching does matter.

- The 7 time pro bowler the Jets are replacing on the O-line wasn't playing at that level anymore and was the worst player on the line.

- Thomas Jones sucked and LT is better. And younger. Not only was LT better in his prime, but is younger and closer to his prime years.

- Joe McKnight has massive yards per carry numbers at USC. He had a tremendous college career, but he didn't get the number of carries necessary to put up big yardage totals. But he still had a very productive career. His college career was at least as impressive as Leon Washington's.

[#27TheDominator]

Eventually Schotty will be gone and then will see if he deserved all the knob polishing he got.

- You list Gholston and Bryan Thomas being first round picks as part of your argument. If draft position is so important than Braylon Edwards is better than Darrelle Revis.

- Jenkins and Taylor have multiple pro bowls but Taylor is over the hill and expected to be a part time player. If he was the same player he was when he was going to the pro bowl he would be the starter over Thomas.

- Yes, Scott is one of the highest paid players at his position. Doesn't prove he's talented. And Scott went undrafted, in other sections you place great importance on draft position. Back when Jamarcus Russell was the fourth highest paid player in the league, was he any good?

- They had the number one D with the same players that Mangini couldn't crack the top ten with. Coaching does matter.

- The 7 time pro bowler the Jets are replacing on the O-line wasn't playing at that level anymore and was the worst player on the line.

- Thomas Jones sucked and LT is better. And younger. Not only was LT better in his prime, but is younger and closer to his prime years.

- Joe McKnight has massive yards per carry numbers at USC. He had a tremendous college career, but he didn't get the number of carries necessary to put up big yardage totals. But he still had a very productive career. His college career was at least as impressive as Leon Washington's.

Who the **** is polishing Brian Schottenheimer's knob? I haven't heard one remotely positive thing about the guy on the boards. In fact, the only people I hear saying anything good about him are the Jets coaches and FO. He gets no credit for anything - Callahan gets credit for every positive with the Jets offense.

The Jets offense may have talent, but it is being run by what is by far the biggest question mark on the team. If Sanchez plays poorly it is not necessarily the OC's fault. The 2nd biggest question mark is a small school project of an LT taking the place of an all-time LG. The D is set and stacked. Ryan may be one of the greatest defensive minds in history. I'll agree that Schottenheimer is not at his level. There is no shame in that, it doesn't mean the OC should be fired.

[Matt39]

It depends on the Sanchez.

Defense is more about individual battles.

[NIGHT STALKER]

I love defenses, so you know what direction I'm going. Rex's Marauders are coming for you.

[Irish Jet]

defense, easily

+1

Offense has good talent, but the defense is rididuclous.

[CTM]

defense...

and if the offense stinks it will likely be on sanchez..

[slats]

defense...

and if the offense stinks it will likely be on sanchez..

+1

Let's hope it doesn't come to that.

[Greenranger]

Defense. I expect Sanchez to be better next year, but I'm not sold that he will be great next year.

[Larz]

you know what, if bob sutton and eric mangini are still here, the offense would get more love on talent level in this discussion

rex made the entire unit over achieve last season, I was stunned, I thought they wouldn't be any good until mid-season

if sanchez gets his **** together, this will be a very close call come week 8

[Bruce Banner]

Lets do it position by position, though some positions like QB don't have an obvious counterpart.

Braylon vs Cromartie: tie

Holmes vs Revis: defense

Brick vs Thomas: offense

Ducasse vs Ellis: offense

Mangold vs Jenkins: defense

Moore vs Cast of Thousands: offense

Woody vs Pace: tie

Greene vs Harris: tie

John Connor vs Scott: defense

Sanchez vs Leonhard: offense

Keller vs Pool: offense

Its a talented offense. The O-line is better than the D-line. The WRs have as much talent as the DBs. In the 3-4 OLBs are hybrids between DEs and LBs so its fair to compare them to the O-lineman they would be trying to beat when pass rushing, etc. RBs and LBs are an obvious comparison.

I think the offense is clearly more talented, and thats with out even being crazy for Sanchez.

[Jetsfan80]

First of all, we need to separate out the coaching from the talent to answer the question at hand. Rex is a great defensive coach, and Schottenheimer/Callahan did OK too, especially down the stretch, but they're irrelevant in this discussion. We're talking talent here.

I'm going to grade each unit on the field and see how it shakes out:

Defense

Secondary

Revis is the best corner in the game, period. The Jets also upgraded at both the # 2 and 3 corner slots, getting two talented guys in Cromartie and Wilson suitable for the large amount of man coverage we're going to play. Leonhard is HUGE on this defense for his football knowledge and toughness, and Pool is a better football player than Rhodes.

GRADE: A+

Linebackers

There's no better tandem in the league at ILB than Scott and Harris. OLB's Pace, Taylor, Thomas and Westerman should collectively be an excellent group because they each bring something different to the table and compliment each other well. For instance, Thomas is good at handling the run, and Taylor still is a very good pass-rusher. Perfect.

GRADE: A-

Defensive Line

Even if Kris Jenkins gets hurt next season, he should still at least be able to give us a half season of dominant NT play. If he's healthy for a full season, our defense will be completely dominant. Pouha and DeVito are serviceable, Ellis is a wily veteran that can still handle himself at the point of attack, and moving Gholston to DE seems to me to be a good decision. He's strong enough to be a helpful rotational guy.

GRADE: B+

Offense

Quarterback

Sanchez has the physical tools to be well worth trading up for, and his ceiling probably is as high as his one limitation (height) will let him go. Potential aside, year 2 Sanchez should be better than last year's one would think, and if he performs as well in 2010 as he did in the postseason, you're talking about a top 10-15 in the league type season.

GRADE: B

Running Back

Greene supplants Jones as starter, Tomlinson moves into the # 2 / 3rd down back role, and Joe McKnight adds further depth. This means lots of unknowns. However, with Greene nearly breaking the NFL record for rushing yards by a rookie in his first 2 games, including a 40+ yard TD run against the Chargers that helped seal the game, a Pro Bowl-caliber season behind the Jets OL is very much a possibility. Health and not putting the ball on the ground are the only question marks. LT is one of the top 10 backup RB's in the league, and McKnight looked like a Leon Washington clone at USC.

GRADE: B

Receivers

Not factoring in the 4-game suspension (that has no impact on talent), Holmes is a WR1 caliber receiver and former Super Bowl MVP that can totally change the complexion of the Jet offense on his own. Throw in deep threat Edwards, possession guy Cotchery, and dynamic receiving TE Keller, and the receiving corps is the strongest "sub-unit" on the offense.

GRADE: A

Offensive Line

The most dominant unit in the NFL, especially in the run-blocking department, shed its weakest link (Faneca) and replaced him with Vlad Ducasse. With plenty of first team reps playing between Ferguson and Faneca and opposite other vets Moore and Woody, not to mention working under the best OL coach in the league (Callahan), I'm confident he'll be fine.

GRADE: A+

There's talent all over the field, but you have to give the nod to the DEFENSE on this one.

Revis is the best defensive player in the league, Scott and Harris are both top 10 ILB's, Jenkins is the best NT when healthy, and the mix of a strong veteran presence (Pace, Leonhard, Ellis, Taylor) and talented young newcomers (Cromartie, Wilson, Pool) simply make it the better overall unit. The fact that the Jets were the # 1 defense last year isn't JUST because of Rex, its partly because there was talent all over the place, and there's more of it this year.

The offense needs to become more polished to rival the D. The fact that the O can't move the ball on the D much at all in OTA's may not mean much, but its further proof that it has catching up to do. Plus, there are many more question marks. How much will Sanchez progress? Can Greene carry the workload for the full season? Can we depend on LT and McKnight if Greene gets hurt? Etc.

[#27TheDominator]

Lets do it position by position, though some positions like QB don't have an obvious counterpart.

Ducasse vs Ellis: offense

Sanchez vs Leonhard: offense

We've already established that we don't agree, but looking at your line by line analysis these two stuck out.

Sanchez is a lower tier QB with upside, Leonhard is a very good safety. Sanchez is more important and more valuable to the team. Nobody would give up a player like Sanchez for a player like Leonhard, but Leonhard is considerably better at his position than Sanchez is at QB. The same can be said about Greene over Harris. One is essentially an unknown with unlimited potential, the other an established top to top half tier ILB.

Ducasse over Ellis? How? Ellis is coming off a great year, Ducasse has never played the position, never even played at a major college level and is a complete project. You're just buying the Callahan hype there. There is no guarantee he'll even beat out Slauson who is at JAG level.

You said in your ealier posts that McKnight was probably an upgrade over Washington, Faneca was a liability and on the way out and Jones flat out sucked. If all those things are true, then what do you have against Schottenheimer? They didn't do so badly with such crap playing every down.

[PS17]

you know what, if bob sutton and eric mangini are still here, the offense would get more love on talent level in this discussion

rex made the entire unit over achieve last season, I was stunned, I thought they wouldn't be any good until mid-season

if sanchez gets his **** together, this will be a very close call come week 8

This is exactly what I was thinking.

[Bruce Banner]

When I say talent I mean raw physical ability. For example I think Cromartie has more physical talent than Revis, even though Revis is a better corner back. I think the offense is putting more physical ability on the field, especially on the line.

[slats]

When I say talent I mean raw physical ability. For example I think Cromartie has more physical talent than Revis, even though Revis is a better corner back. I think the offense is putting more physical ability on the field, especially on the line.

Then the defense has more talent hands down. They have Gholston.

/thread

[GMJohnson]

Then the defense has more talent hands down. They have Gholston.

/thread

[Lurker]

the offense doesn't hold a candle.

Jenkins

Revis

Harris

Bart Scott

Cromartie

Ellis

Kyle Wilson

On paper, maybe the most talented defense in the league. The offense? No.

[Lurker]

When I say talent I mean raw physical ability. For example I think Cromartie has more physical talent than Revis, even though Revis is a better corner back. I think the offense is putting more physical ability on the field, especially on the line.

Then the defense has more talent hands down. They have Gholston.

/thread

[CTM]

We've already established that we don't agree, but looking at your line by line analysis these two stuck out.

Sanchez is a lower tier QB with upside, Leonhard is a very good safety. Sanchez is more important and more valuable to the team. Nobody would give up a player like Sanchez for a player like Leonhard, but Leonhard is considerably better at his position than Sanchez is at QB. The same can be said about Greene over Harris. One is essentially an unknown with unlimited potential, the other an established top to top half tier ILB.

Ducasse over Ellis? How? Ellis is coming off a great year, Ducasse has never played the position, never even played at a major college level and is a complete project. You're just buying the Callahan hype there. There is no guarantee he'll even beat out Slauson who is at JAG level.

You said in your ealier posts that McKnight was probably an upgrade over Washington, Faneca was a liability and on the way out and Jones flat out sucked. If all those things are true, then what do you have against Schottenheimer? They didn't do so badly with such crap playing every down.

This.. Good post. repp'd

[SenorGato]

It's close when you rank them by the individuals, but the defense is way more coordinated than the mostly young offense. No point in being talented if you're not coordinated...

[Bruce Banner]

I think Gholston's physical ability is overstated. In every combine test that involved a change of direction Gholston's numbers were mediocre. His failure at linebacker is not surprising given his combine results.

Gholston had some good numbers at the combine for a man his size, but the same can be said for Braylon and Keller and many other offensive players. Gholston ran a 4.65 forty, impressive for a man his size. But that's nothing which would make him a better physical talent than someone like Braylon Edwards.

[Boozer76]

We've already established that we don't agree, but looking at your line by line analysis these two stuck out.

Sanchez is a lower tier QB with upside, Leonhard is a very good safety. Sanchez is more important and more valuable to the team. Nobody would give up a player like Sanchez for a player like Leonhard, but Leonhard is considerably better at his position than Sanchez is at QB. The same can be said about Greene over Harris. One is essentially an unknown with unlimited potential, the other an established top to top half tier ILB.

Ducasse over Ellis? How? Ellis is coming off a great year, Ducasse has never played the position, never even played at a major college level and is a complete project. You're just buying the Callahan hype there. There is no guarantee he'll even beat out Slauson who is at JAG level.

You said in your ealier posts that McKnight was probably an upgrade over Washington, Faneca was a liability and on the way out and Jones flat out sucked. If all those things are true, then what do you have against Schottenheimer? They didn't do so badly with such crap playing every down.

Ellis gets zero respect from fans. I can't understand how people can mentally mastubate on guys like Pennington and Leon Washington and hate Ellis. Ellis has been solid in both the 3-4 and the 4-3 at DE. He rarely gets hurt, makes a ton of plays, and never makes waves with the media or in the locker room. I wish Jets fans would get over their man crushes of players that aren't talented enough to be starters at their position and start respecting real football players. Sean Ellis would crush Ducasse as of now. Ducasse hasn't played a snap in the NFL yet.

[Lurker]

I think Gholston's physical ability is overstated. In every combine test that involved a change of direction Gholston's numbers were mediocre. His failure at linebacker is not surprising given his combine results.

Gholston had some good numbers at the combine for a man his size, but the same can be said for Braylon and Keller and many other offensive players. Gholston ran a 4.65 forty, impressive for a man his size. But that's nothing which would make him a better physical talent than someone like Braylon Edwards.

I disagree. It wasn't simply the 40 times.

The whole combine performance was very impressive for Gholston. The problem is that while he has good athletic ability, he doesn't have what it takes to be a top pass-rusher on the NFL.

Combine performance should be mostly ignored. Game tape and character evaluations are much more valuable.