Reggie McKenzie (MERGED)

[greenwichjetfan]

Just now, dbatesman said:

How?

Idzik.

[August]

29 minutes ago, sourceworx said:

There were reports that at the 2014 Scouting Combine, Idzik had confided in several people that he was trying to get rid of Rex. 

Other than that, I completely agree with your post.

Can I see these reports? Hard to believe when you consider that general managers are judged based on wins and losses so why purposely sabotage your coach and lose games?

[Warfish]

22 hours ago, UnitedWhofans said:

McKenzie was named the Oakland GM in 2012.

Went 4-12, 4-12, 3-13, 7-9 and now 11-3.

Carr was drafted in the 3-13 year. So not all the progress the Raiders can point to that alone.

I think he should be NFL executive of the year and it goes to show what patience can do. 

This is a HUGE draft for Mike Maccagnan coming up. His first two drafts have been, despite what the "only care about stars" media and fanbase thinks, okay. Not great, Not horrible. So this is a big one. He nailed his first top ten pick., which some people think was a no brainer, although with the Jets, the no brainer can go by the wayside.

Darron Lee has potential at the 20th pick. But he needs to really nail this pick

 

 

Macc is fine.  The idea of firing him now is laughable and ignorant.

Bowles, on the other hand...

[NoBowles]

11 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

How?

Hire Idzik?

[RutgersJetFan]

1 hour ago, sourceworx said:

Believe it or not as bad as Idzik's drafts were, I would have been ok with keeping him longer if it weren't for the reports that he purposely sabotaged Rex so he could justify firing him.

That doesn't mean I think Rex should have been given another chance. Woody should have fired him when he fired Tannenbaum.

But once Idzik accepted the GM position with Rex as the coach, his job was to provide him with the best personnel possible within the salary cap constraints. He intentionally did not do that. And that's why he didn't deserve more than the two years they gave him.

In Mac's case, some of his moves have gone wrong, some terribly so.  But I still think he's brought in some young talent to build on. I think Petty is showing potential to improve, and I'm not as down on the Hackenberg pick as others are. I don't think it's time to clean house.

Bowles on the other hand, appears to have lost the team and players have shown little to no respect for him. I think he needs to go.

I think with how disastrous his draft classes were almost immediately, it was obvious he had to go. There are three positions on a football team that you can't take chances on when they're disastrous, GM, coach, and quarterback. Waiting around to see if someone might be good when they clearly are not takes years, literally years, and screw that.  

[CanadaSteve]

As a response to the growing debate about whether Mac should be fired, lets compare him with the other GM that is the hot-trend to get high praise, Reggie Mackenzie.

Mackenzie is on his 5th draft with Oakland, while Mac has had 2 drafts. 

Most so-called pundits seem to agree that a draft needs 3 years to be fully judged, yet most are calling for Mac's head before his first draft can be fully judged.

If Mackenzie did not draft well in 2014, 15, and 16, he would have been gone.  I bet he was on the hot-seat in 2014 when he killed it. So, that being said, lets judge them both equally, without having the luxury of Mackenzie's last three drafts.

Mackenzie's first two drafts flat-out SUCKED.  While Mac has potentially hit on a bunch of picks that I believe will no doubt be here at least 5 years, the same cannot be said for Mackenzie's first two drafts. Out of his 16 picks, there are only 2 left on the roster....A backup RT in Menelik Watson, and a starting RB in Latavius Murray.  But remember, people are now praising, not just here but all over the media, Mackenzie and the job he has done in bringing the Raiders back to the playoffs.  

So, to be judged equally, that would mean Mac has to have 1 good/great starter and 1 back up player in his first two drafts to be on par with what Mackenzie had done his first two years.  

I am going to go out on a limb and say Leonard Williams is the equivalent to Latavius Murray.  With that said, to have the equivalent of Menelik Watson, you have to believe that in three years, only ONE of the following players will be on this team, in a back-up roll: Darron Lee, Christian Hackenberg, Justin Burris, Jordan Jenkins, Charone Peake, Brandon Shell, Lak Edwards, Robbie Anderson (not drafted, but having good success so far), Lorenzo Mauldin, Devon Smith, Bryce Petty, Jarvis Harrison, and Deon Simon. 

It has been stated here ad-nauseam how poor-fair Mac has drafted these past two years, and it has been stated ad-nauseam that THIS upcoming draft will be huge for him, just like it was for Mackenzie. I personally think the later is more true than the previous in that statement.  

If you are one who believes Mac should be gone, put some evidence on the table, especially if you have talked about how great a job first-time GM Reggie Mackenzie has done. 

If people want to laud Mackenzie yet call for Mac's head, they should be judged equally on what they have actually done equally in their first two years of the job, not by giving Mackenzie the additional three drafts, all of which he has killed. 

[JiFtheOracle]

17 hours ago, Mogglez said:

He spent a 2nd rounder on a QB 2 years after drafting one with a 4th round pick (who is already out of the league).  So far we have only spent a 2nd and a 4th round pick on QBs.  It's also a lot easier to nab impact players, who can contribute right away, when the team you're in charge of sucks so badly that you pick top 5 every single year until you hit gold on a franchise QB...except, looking back at his drafts prior to Carr, that wasn't the case with McKenzie and your "he showed that understood the draft and positional value...so I get why he got 3 years to find one" and "The dude has landed at least 3 impact players in every draft he's had" statements are just flat-out wrong.  Also it was really cute to ignore the players like Mauldin, Jordan Jenkins, Deon Simon, Robby Anderson, Lachlan Edwards who have shown that they belong in this league.  Lee, whether you like him or not, since we've argued that before, has played well too and looks like he will get better with experience.

Cherry picked arguments. Yay!!!!

 

Big Mac has been a disaster in the draft so far.  I'm not sure why you've anointed yourself his personal defender but there is really nothing to defend.  The criticism is real and fair and he's not above it.  You act like he's perfect when he's been terrible. 

Those players you listed, are not impact Football players and 1 is a punter.  I take that back, Anderson (who wasnt a draft pick which is what we're discussing) has proven to be a diamond in the rough.  So he's drafted 1 impact player in 2 years and that player fell to him by pure luck.  

And you're right, I'm flat out wrong that that McKenzie has found 3 impact players in each of his drafts.  His first one in 2012 wasnt pretty.  And that's probably because he didnt have a pick till the 3rd round (and he actually did still find players, they're just on other teams).  Other than that 1 draft where he was severely handicapped,  he's been money finding at least 3 impact players in each draft.

2013: Hayden, Watson, Murray, Rivera, Moore, McGee.

2014: Mack, Carr, Jackson - plus depth players

2015: Amari Cooper, Mario Edwards, Clive Warford, 

2016: Karl Joseph, Jihad Ward, Shilique Calhoun, Deandre Washington, Cory James

Not sure what you're arguing or what I'm cherry picking...it's just fact. 

[sourceworx]

21 minutes ago, August said:

Can I see these reports? Hard to believe when you consider that general managers are judged based on wins and losses so why purposely sabotage your coach and lose games?

Google is a great tool. 

[jeremy2020]

now that you got that off your chest are you ready for a nap?

 

 

[sourceworx]

19 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

I think with how disastrous his draft classes were almost immediately, it was obvious he had to go. There are three positions on a football team that you can't take chances on when they're disastrous, GM, coach, and quarterback. Waiting around to see if someone might be good when they clearly are not takes years, literally years, and screw that.  

I agree. Coming out of the 2014 draft class with next to nothing was borderline criminal. There was a ton of talent to be had, and he had 13 picks. To only come away with only Quincy Enunwa was inexcusable.

[JiFtheOracle]

10 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

No he has not!  There isn't anyone on the team from his first draft in 2012, and only a handful left from his 2013 draft where he had 10 picks. 

No need to point out all the fans on this site who would have had him fired by then.  I mean, BOTH his #1's from 2012-2013 drafts are gone!  Yet, they kept him on.  And what did he do?  In 2014 and 15, those two drafts alone netted him about 6 starters (including a franchise QB), and about 4 solid back-ups.  This last draft netted 2 starters, 2 back-ups and another QB prospect.

AMAZING what happens when you give someone more than 2 years before you fire them!

Like it or not, Mac needs to be able to conduct 4 drafts to get an honest assessment.  

See my most recent post.  In 2012, he didnt have a pick till the 3rd round...not sure what #1 you're referring to in 2012.  While he didnt get any players for the Raiders from that severely handicapped draft...Ironically, he found players late that are still in the league just on different teams.

FWIW - I'm not saying to fire Big Mac.  He's been terrible thus far but I'm not calling for his head yet.   Hopefully some players turn it around, I doubt it but it could happen and help Big Mac save face. 

[CanadaSteve]

1 minute ago, jeremy2020 said:

now that you got that off your chest are you ready for a nap?

Nope....ready for someone to actually come here with a good argument for their stance on how MacCagnan should be fired as GM of the Jets after two horrendous seasons. 

[RutgersJetFan]

Lol @ the title change

[rangerous]

1 minute ago, CanadaSteve said:

As a response to the growing debate about whether Mac should be fired, lets compare him with the other GM that is the hot-trend to get high praise, Reggie Mackenzie.

Mackenzie is on his 5th draft with Oakland, while Mac has had 2 drafts. 

Most so-called pundits seem to agree that a draft needs 3 years to be fully judged, yet most are calling for Mac's head before his first draft can be fully judged.

If Mackenzie did not draft well in 2014, 15, and 16, he would have been gone.  I bet he was on the hot-seat in 2014 when he killed it. So, that being said, lets judge them both equally, without having the luxury of Mackenzie's last three drafts.

Mackenzie's first two drafts flat-out SUCKED.  While Mac has potentially hit on a bunch of picks that I believe will no doubt be here at least 5 years, the same cannot be said for Mackenzie's first two drafts. Out of his 16 picks, there are only 2 left on the roster....A backup RT in Menelik Watson, and a starting RB in Latavius Murray.  But remember, people are now praising, not just here but all over the media, Mackenzie and the job he has done in bringing the Raiders back to the playoffs.  

So, to be judged equally, that would mean Mac has to have good/great starter and one back up player in his first two drafts to be on par with what Mackenzie has done.  

I am going to go out on a limb and say Leonard Williams is the equivalent to Latavius Murray.  With that said, to have the equivalent of Menelik Watson, you have to believe that in three years, only ONE of the following players will be on this team, in a back-up roll, in three more years. Darron Lee, Christian Hackenberg, Justin Burris, Jordan Jenkins, Charone Peake, Brandon Shell, Lak Edwards, Robbie Anderson (not drafted, but having good success so far), Lorenzo Mauldin, Devon Smith, Bryce Petty, Jarvis Harrison, and Deon Simon 

It has been stated here ad-nauseam how poor-fair Mac has drafted these past two years, and it has been stated ad-nauseam that THIS upcoming draft will be huge for him, just like it was for Mackenzie. I personally think the later is more two than the previous in that statement.  If you are one who believes Mac should be gone, put some evidence on the table, especially if you have talked about how great a job first-time GM Reggie Mackenzie has done. 

If people want to laud Mackenzie yet call for Mac's head, they should be judged equally on what they have actually done equally in their first two years of the job, not by giving Mackenzie the additional three drafts, all of which he has killed. 

i'm with you on this one.  people are torching mac because of two drafts both of which may contain good qb's.  and then there's the whole how could he whiff in the first round when leo was so highly rated argument.  as if the draft is a brainless excercise.  taking leo was a great move in spite of the fact the jets already had wilk and richardson (how's everyone liking that pick now?) when you consider he could've drafted for need, like a wr.  as for lee, you can't teach speed or attitude.  he may be a little light but he can add 20 lbs and come back much stronger.  and then when you go deeper, mac's picks are playing significant roles on the team.  i guess you can fault the devon smith pick in hindsight but who can predict a guy's injury.

the main issue that mac messed up was re-signing fitz.  not that fitz shouldn't have been qb to start this season but he should've been signed back in the spring.  imo richardson resented the way fitz came in and took the job away from geno and it affected his play all season.  it's hard to say if mac considered this aspect.  same thing with signing wilk so late.  i'll bet wilk was getting spooled up by richardson for not being signed earlier.  it's too bad they just didn't ship sheldon off somewhere else.

[JiFtheOracle]

This needed a new thread? 

[CanadaSteve]

3 minutes ago, JiF said:

See my most recent post.  In 2012, he didnt have a pick till the 3rd round...not sure what #1 you're referring to in 2012.  While he didnt get any players for the Raiders from that severely handicapped draft...Ironically, he found players late that are still in the league just on different teams.

FWIW - I'm not saying to fire Big Mac.  He's been terrible thus far but I'm not calling for his head yet.   Hopefully some players turn it around, I doubt it but it could happen and help Big Mac save face. 

Sorry, I meant his #1 picks in those drafts, not meaning 1st round picks.  And that is not an argument in favor of Mackenzie's abilities if he had drafted a player but is now on another team.  As my new topic states, he had 16 picks in the first two years, and only two are left on the roster.  To call Mac terrible is just ridiculous.   

[CrazyCarl40]

2 minutes ago, JiF said:

This needed a new thread? 

The exchange rate from Canadian threads to American threads strikes again!

[CanadaSteve]

20 minutes ago, JiF said:

 

Big Mac has been a disaster in the draft so far.  I'm not sure why you've anointed yourself his personal defender but there is really nothing to defend.  The criticism is real and fair and he's not above it.  You act like he's perfect when he's been terrible. 

Those players you listed, are not impact Football players and 1 is a punter.  I take that back, Anderson (who wasnt a draft pick which is what we're discussing) has proven to be a diamond in the rough.  So he's drafted 1 impact player in 2 years and that player fell to him by pure luck.  

And you're right, I'm flat out wrong that that McKenzie has found 3 impact players in each of his drafts.  His first one in 2012 wasnt pretty.  And that's probably because he didnt have a pick till the 3rd round (and he actually did still find players, they're just on other teams).  Other than that 1 draft where he was severely handicapped,  he's been money finding at least 3 impact players in each draft.

2013: Hayden, Watson, Murray, Rivera, Moore, McGee.

2014: Mack, Carr, Jackson - plus depth players

2015: Amari Cooper, Mario Edwards, Clive Warford, 

2016: Karl Joseph, Jihad Ward, Shilique Calhoun, Deandre Washington, Cory James

Not sure what you're arguing or what I'm cherry picking...it's just fact. 

You cannot judge Mac's drafts after two years and give Mackenzie high praise with 3 extra drafts, all of which he has done well, and laud Mackenzie for drafting players that are NOT on his team.

That is textbook agenda driven.

How about we revisit this suggestion in three more years and judge Mac  for all the players on his first two drafts that are on other NFL teams as well but just not playing for the Jets. 

[Jetdawgg]

It's the check book with Macc. It's his BPA approach. It may be too strict. When drafting like that, you may have to make other moves like on the DL after Williams. He then signed Mo to big money.

He drafted two QB's then brought Futz back with a big dollar signing over TWO seasons for no reason. That not only killed the cap, it also took reps and preparation time from the younger QB's. Who does that?

So far he does not appear to have a coherent roster management or check book strategy. Roster management is important as the CS needs to run a certain scheme. To this point in time he has put TB and the staff in a difficult position with these major flaws in his GM game.

[August]

Look at some of these drafts from some of the most respected general managers/front office people between 2013 and 2014.

Ozzie Newsome

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Ravens_draft_history

 

Stealers 2013 Draft

http://m.steelers.com/news/article-1/Steelers-Complete-2013-NFL-Draft-With-Nine-Selections/b5023f48-f3a2-4af1-9025-6ac62dfe48ef

Steelers 2014 Draft

https://www.google.com/amp/www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/platform/amp/2014-nfl-draft/2014/5/10/5704962/steelers-2014-draft-class-list

New England Cheaters 2013 Draft

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/2629226-re-grading-the-new-england-Cheaters-2013-nfl-draft-class/page/9

New England Cheaters 2014 Draft

http://www.nepatriotsdraft.com/2014-Cheaters-draft-picks

 

These are just 3 examples. The common thing is they have one really good guy a few busts and a couple bottom of the roster guys. No different than our drafts from those years.

 

 

[CanadaSteve]

1 hour ago, sourceworx said:

There were reports that at the 2014 Scouting Combine, Idzik had confided in several people that he was trying to get rid of Rex. 

Other than that, I completely agree with your post.

I googled what you are saying, but can only find opinion pieces about the topic.  Is there any HARD evidence that we know about?  I mean, it does make a whole lotta sense as to why he drafted so poorly.  I cannot believe that someone who has been around the game of football that long could COMPLETELY whiff on 12 draft picks on one year.  

[August]

15 minutes ago, sourceworx said:

Google is a great tool. 

You made the claim I'm asking you to prove it. Why should I go out of my way to search for something I could care less about searching for? 

[ASH1962]

I vote we give him a 10 year extension with a no firing / no termination clause along with Todd Bowltite so we can judge all drafts properly and have continuity.

[Ex-Rex]

22 hours ago, UnitedWhofans said:

McKenzie was named the Oakland GM in 2012.

Went 4-12, 4-12, 3-13, 7-9 and now 11-3.

Carr was drafted in the 3-13 year. So not all the progress the Raiders can point to that alone.

I think he should be NFL executive of the year and it goes to show what patience can do. 

This is a HUGE draft for Mike Maccagnan coming up. His first two drafts have been, despite what the "only care about stars" media and fanbase thinks, okay. Not great, Not horrible. So this is a big one. He nailed his first top ten pick., which some people think was a no brainer, although with the Jets, the no brainer can go by the wayside.

Darron Lee has potential at the 20th pick. But he needs to really nail this pick

 

 

Then he better take a stud left tackle or Jabril Peppers. No QB is worth the fifth pick in the draft NOT EVEN Mitch Trubisky, who has been a one year wonder at NC, not exactly a football powerhouse. He then needs to restock at CB, which will make the front seven look much better. First and foremost however, is Todd Bowles needs to be relieved of his duties. He doesn't recognize fake effort and he is not the kind of strong man that will make these guys take notice. He is too laid back and too prone to allowing fake effort. He called the team out for it after the Colts game, but then realized that was more an indictment of himself so he backed off on the statement. The statement was correct on both parts - the players had laid down - and it was Bowles fault.

[JoeC36]

I merged the threads because there is absolutely ZERO reason to have two threads comparing Macc to the GM of the Raiders. Sorry if you feel you're not getting the attention you believe deserve, but work harder to make relevant points instead of starting another thread on the topic. 

Thanks

[hokiejetfan92]

Guys the only difference between Derek Carr as a rookie and Bryce Petty is you ignorant fans begging to replace him! Give Petty and Mac time!!

[JiFtheOracle]

9 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

You cannot judge Mac's drafts after two years and give Mackenzie high praise with 3 extra drafts, all of which he has done well, and laud Mackenzie for drafting players that are NOT on his team.

That is textbook agenda driven.

How about we revisit this suggestion in three more years and judge Mac  for all the players on his first two drafts that are on other NFL teams as well but just not playing for the Jets. 

If Big Mac hits on another player he drafted not named Leonard Williams, I'll be shocked and gladly eat crow.  It doesnt look like I'll be eating crow but I hope I'm wrong.

 

[RutgersJetFan]

3 minutes ago, JoeC36 said:

I merged the threads because there is absolutely ZERO reason to have two threads comparing Macc to the GM of the Raiders. Sorry if you feel you're not getting the attention you believe deserve, but work harder to make relevant points instead of starting another thread on the topic. 

Thanks

BLAME CANADA

[Green DNA]

1 hour ago, greenwichjetfan said:

You could do a sh*t-ton of a lot worse than Scott Pioli. He was critical to our '98 run, and was the driving force behind the pats* golden years. Forget Brady....no one deserves credit for drafting him where he was taken. He also did well in KC. 

That would be a incorrect!  Pioli sh*t the bed royally in KC and was run out of town.  I know a number of KC fans and they do not have nice things to say about Mr. Pioli.

[sourceworx]

38 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

I googled what you are saying, but can only find opinion pieces about the topic.  Is there any HARD evidence that we know about?  I mean, it does make a whole lotta sense as to why he drafted so poorly.  I cannot believe that someone who has been around the game of football that long could COMPLETELY whiff on 12 draft picks on one year.  

I just did a quick search, and couldn't find it either.  I honestly don't remember the exact publication it was from, but it was included in an article as a "rumblings heard around the Combine" type of sidebar. 

Watch it was from Manish, and was total bullsh!t.  LOL.

[ZachEY]

54 minutes ago, hokiejetfan92 said:

Guys the only difference between Derek Carr as a rookie and Bryce Petty is you ignorant fans begging to replace him! Give Petty and Mac time!!

I also agree that a nearly 2:1 TD to INT ratio not meaningfully different than an 1:2 TD to INT ratio.  It's just the fans!

[CanadaSteve]

56 minutes ago, JiF said:

If Big Mac hits on another player he drafted not named Leonard Williams, I'll be shocked and gladly eat crow.  It doesnt look like I'll be eating crow but I hope I'm wrong.

 

WoW....

We'll just disagree and save any more arguing.

[CanadaSteve]

2 hours ago, RutgersJetFan said:

I can't use an empirical example of the theoretical thing you're proposing? Yes. Yes I actually can use that. 

Great!  So which GM do you suggest we hire and then subsequently fire in another two years?  Let me use an empirical example as well.....it will fail.

[CanadaSteve]

1 hour ago, CanadaSteve said:

Sorry, I meant his #1 picks in those drafts, not meaning 1st round picks.  And that is not an argument in favor of Mackenzie's abilities if he had drafted a player but is now on another team.  As my new topic states, he had 16 picks in the first two years, and only two are left on the roster.  To call Mac terrible is just ridiculous.   

 

1 hour ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

The exchange rate from Canadian threads to American threads strikes again!

Feel free to ignore them guys!

 

[RutgersJetFan]

42 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

Great!  So which GM do you suggest we hire and then subsequently fire in another two years?  Let me use an empirical example as well.....it will fail.

I have no idea. I am thoroughly enjoying you yelling at everyone though.