The pick at 6 has to be..

[cant wait]

Just now, thadude said:

Didn't look slow in actual games skippy.  And your boy is succeptible to post double fakes and isn't that fast himself for his own position

yeah in college games you can get away with being a 4.9 guy. laughable

[cant wait]

4 minutes ago, thadude said:

So unless the safety we draft at 6 is the next Ed Reed its a wasted pick?

 

I agree

 

Yeah let's just take a slow future bust tweener pass rusher. exactly what this team needs more of 

[thadude]

4 minutes ago, cant wait said:

yeah in college games you can get away with being a 4.9 guy. laughable

Laughable for someone who is 6'6 277 lbs

 

OJ Howard destroys his combine -- he's the next Gholston. A 277lb Defensive End runs a 4.9 40 oh he sucks because he didn't run fast in a straight line no winning with you guys unless we draft the next crappy 1st round DB who Brady will have 0 trouble with lighting up

 

 

 

[thadude]

Can I bump this thread when Brady throws multiple TD's on both Hooker and Adams because we have 0.0 pass rush and they aren't that great?

[Stark]

14 minutes ago, thadude said:

Watch us draft a friggin safety over an edge rusher like Taco

LOL... Taco Charlton?????? at 6, hell no. not at 6, 16, 26...

[jetfuel]

56 minutes ago, thadude said:

Cutting Marshall was a stupid mistake.  Cutting Decker would be doubling down on the stupidity

I wasn't happy about the Marshall cut either - $7.5 mill for a guy like that is a bargain

[UntouchableCrew]

18 minutes ago, jetfuel said:

I wasn't happy about the Marshall cut either - $7.5 mill for a guy like that is a bargain

He was a malcontent who quit on the team and wanted out... I dunno how much sense it would have made to keep him.

RE: the pick as #6 -- you guys calling for a pass rusher are prioritizing need but when you have a pick that high you pick the elite talent. Drafting a late first round guy like Taco Charleton because we need a pass rusher is idiotic.

The reality is we need offense, but when the elite player is on defense you take that guy rather than over-drafting for need. Adams is going to be a stud -- there aren't many guys in the top 10 who are as big locks as he is IMO.

[goober36]

I wasn't happy about the Marshall cut either - $7.5 mill for a guy like that is a bargain

7.5 mill for a player that drops balls in big time situation and is a cancer to the locker room is not a bargain...it's a death sentence

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[Augustiniak]

2 hours ago, Tinstar said:

That  there is why I would never draft a non premium position player with a high 1st round pick . If this player turns into a star, now you're looking at paying a safety like he was a leading character in stead of a supporting cast member that he should be .

at least if you take howard and he becomes a stud in the west coast offense, you're paying a guy who is producing yards and tds.  

[goober36]

He was a malcontent who quit on the team and wanted out... I dunno how much sense it would have made to keep him.
RE: the pick as #6 -- you guys calling for a pass rusher are prioritizing need but when you have a pick that high you pick the elite talent. Drafting a late first round guy like Taco Charleton because we need a pass rusher is idiotic.
The reality is we need offense, but when the elite player is on defense you take that guy rather than over-drafting for need. Adams is going to be a stud -- there aren't many guys in the top 10 who are as big locks as he is IMO.

I agree. I'd go with Adams if he is there. If not, Howard. Both are locks IMO


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[cant wait]

2 hours ago, thadude said:

Laughable for someone who is 6'6 277 lbs

 

OJ Howard destroys his combine -- he's the next Gholston. A 277lb Defensive End runs a 4.9 40 oh he sucks because he didn't run fast in a straight line no winning with you guys unless we draft the next crappy 1st round DB who Brady will have 0 trouble with lighting up

 

 

 

LOL okay slow taco fanboy

[cant wait]

2 hours ago, Stark said:

LOL... Taco Charlton?????? at 6, hell no. not at 6, 16, 26...

56 would be too early for slow taco 

[ZachEY]

On 4/2/2017 at 11:58 AM, RutgersJetFan said:

If we sat through yet another season of unwatchable dogsh*t just so we can draft a tight end, I am going to be very upset about that.

Will you write a post expressing just how upset you are?

[New York Mick]

There's greater needs on the team then TE. The Online and DBs are way more important and should be addressed first. 

[RutgersJetFan]

1 hour ago, gEYno said:

Will you write a post expressing just how upset you are?

 

[Sperm Edwards]

5 hours ago, Tinstar said:

IMO, no safety is worth the type of money that I would pay for a second starter at the edge rusher position . Let's take the Broncos for instance as an example . Am I going to loose either Ware or Miller because I signed a safety to a 13 mil per contract .

I don't disagree; I'm thinking more like, let's get to that stage where we've filled these key positions first before looking into the next tier of importance. Also if we pick up that 1st-tier position in the draft in the $4-5m range (for a player that would cost $17m as a FA) then for the duration of the rookie contract we could have that luxury. But we haven't filled a hole with a 1st-tier position player since drafting Richardson. Problem is we also drafted 3 others at the same position (with 1st round picks) in a 5-year window. The others have been a bust in Milliner, an ILB, a safety. The thought of burning the 6th overall on another safety (or a TE) is just nuts to me. 

[Adoni Beast]

4 hours ago, Augustiniak said:

at least if you take howard and he becomes a stud in the west coast offense, you're paying a guy who is producing yards and tds.  

And helping out the run game with blocking.

[cant wait]

10 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I don't disagree; I'm thinking more like, let's get to that stage where we've filled these key positions first before looking into the next tier of importance. Also if we pick up that 1st-tier position in the draft in the $4-5m range (for a player that would cost $17m as a FA) then for the duration of the rookie contract we could have that luxury. But we haven't filled a hole with a 1st-tier position player since drafting Richardson. Problem is we also drafted 3 others at the same position (with 1st round picks) in a 5-year window. The others have been a bust in Milliner, an ILB, a safety. The thought of burning the 6th overall on another safety (or a TE) is just nuts to me. 

you're worrying too much about filling positions. depth can be acquired anywhere, elite young talent is much harder to come by- which is what the jets desperately need more than anything. maybe we'll get lucky and a versatile edge rusher like solomon thomas will be available but I'm not counting on it, so give me the best chance at getting a stud player instead of a lottery ticket with higher positional value. if you want to trade back and get one of the OT's I'm all for it- but too risky to gamble with at 6

[JetFanatic]

On 4/4/2017 at 0:05 PM, cant wait said:

I'm dreading the idea of allen sitting there at 6

If that happens I will instantly sh*t my pants.  Literally.

[JetFanatic]

On 4/4/2017 at 1:27 PM, varjet said:

Do they think Allen can play a 3-4 well?

If for some reason he was the clean BPA, and Macc wanted to take him, it would fine by me if he moved basically 2 DEs-we already have 1 too many.  That would give us a good, cheap DE for another 5 years.

But I can't imagine that Howard, Adams, Hooker and Trubisky would be gone then,

Cleveland - Garrett

San Fran - Trubisky

Chicago - Hooker

Jacksonville - Adams

Tennessee - Howard

This could scarily happen..

[cant wait]

7 minutes ago, JetFanatic said:

Cleveland - Garrett

San Fran - Trubisky

Chicago - Hooker

Jacksonville - Adams

Tennessee - Howard

This could scarily happen..

If that happens I'd be thrilled to take thomas... although I doubt he goes after howard 

[Sperm Edwards]

2 hours ago, cant wait said:

you're worrying too much about filling positions. depth can be acquired anywhere, elite young talent is much harder to come by- which is what the jets desperately need more than anything. maybe we'll get lucky and a versatile edge rusher like solomon thomas will be available but I'm not counting on it, so give me the best chance at getting a stud player instead of a lottery ticket with higher positional value. if you want to trade back and get one of the OT's I'm all for it- but too risky to gamble with at 6

Nah. What the Jets need more than anything is a really good, reliable QB. What the Jets need next is (pick your own order) a serious pass rusher, a really good cover corner, and a blindside pass protector. The best "stud player" at any random position, with crap at 4 more important positions, is not nearly as useful as a complete team that's solid all around.

I cannot recall the last time a team drafted a safety that early and then rode that team to the Super Bowl. If he merely ends up being a legit or kinda solid starter, then it's a lousy pick and is the reason there are only like 2 safeties in the league making more than a nominal amount over $10m/yr. He'll, there aren't even ten of them making more than Brian Winters. So if he isn't a top-2 safety for the next decade, it's a bad pick.

If our GM needs a top 6 overall pick to nail a draft pick, then he's not that useful.

He's indicated he wants to trade down. If he's not taking a premiere position player, hopefully he does just that.

[Matt39]

34 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Nah. What the Jets need more than anything is a really good, reliable QB. What the Jets need next is (pick your own order) a serious pass rusher, a really good cover corner, and a blindside pass protector. The best "stud player" at any random position, with crap at 4 more important positions, is not nearly as useful as a complete team that's solid all around.

I cannot recall the last time a team drafted a safety that early and then rode that team to the Super Bowl. If he merely ends up being a legit or kinda solid starter, then it's a lousy pick and is the reason there are only like 2 safeties in the league making more than a nominal amount over $10m/yr. He'll, there aren't even ten of them making more than Brian Winters. So if he isn't a top-2 safety for the next decade, it's a bad pick.

If our GM needs a top 6 overall pick to nail a draft pick, then he's not that useful.

He's indicated he wants to trade down. If he's not taking a premiere position player, hopefully he does just that.

Unless either Adams or Hooker can line up and play man on 3rd down or play as a single high safety with no help they're not worth drafting at 6. We just took Pryor 3 years ago.

[cant wait]

4 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Nah. What the Jets need more than anything is a really good, reliable QB. What the Jets need next is (pick your own order) a serious pass rusher, a really good cover corner, and a blindside pass protector. The best "stud player" at any random position, with crap at 4 more important positions, is not nearly as useful as a complete team that's solid all around.

I cannot recall the last time a team drafted a safety that early and then rode that team to the Super Bowl. If he merely ends up being a legit or kinda solid starter, then it's a lousy pick and is the reason there are only like 2 safeties in the league making more than a nominal amount over $10m/yr. He'll, there aren't even ten of them making more than Brian Winters. So if he isn't a top-2 safety for the next decade, it's a bad pick.

If our GM needs a top 6 overall pick to nail a draft pick, then he's not that useful.

He's indicated he wants to trade down. If he's not taking a premiere position player, hopefully he does just that.

I'd prefer a trade down too, filling out a complete roster is most important right now. I think in terms of player evaluation though there's really two main factors at stake- talent level/positional value, something measured in tiers I.e. QB 100, WR 90, DE 80 etc. so if a players talent level is 100 but their positional value might take them down to an 80 when making a final draft board grade. just goes to show how critical a teams trust in its scouting is, since by no means is it an exact science, and that's not taking into account relative depth or scarcity in certain classes or external  player issues or roster needs

[thadude]

4 hours ago, Matt39 said:

Unless either Adams or Hooker can line up and play man on 3rd down or play as a single high safety with no help they're not worth drafting at 6. We just took Pryor 3 years ago.

And that pick worked out beautifully 

 

Way to go first round safeties!

 

[varjet]

15 hours ago, JetFanatic said:

Cleveland - Garrett

San Fran - Trubisky

Chicago - Hooker

Jacksonville - Adams

Tennessee - Howard

This could scarily happen..

I can easily see the draft go like the above.  That is basically how I would pick for each team, ignoring the Cousins situation.

The 49ers may have a pretty good situation-they can play this year with Hoyer, Gabbert, whatever, and then Cousins comes in as an instant starter.  People believe that Trubisky probably needs to sit for awhile.  So the 49ers are basically in the same place and can draft someone else.  

So in this scenario the Jets take Thomas, if they think he can be used in their defense, or otherwise one of the WRs.

In my view if the 49ers take Thomas, the Jets take Trubisky or trade the pick to someone who does.   Trubisky is a starting NFL QB.  The Jets currently do not have one.  He does not grade out as well as some of the other players on the board in terms of score, but he is a QB.

14 hours ago, Matt39 said:

Unless either Adams or Hooker can line up and play man on 3rd down or play as a single high safety with no help they're not worth drafting at 6. We just took Pryor 3 years ago.

The reason Hooker would be picked so high is that the view is that he could cover that much field.  Adams is just another freak safety who is a bigger and faster Polamalu. Think Sean Taylor/Kenny Easley.  They go that high.

Calvin Pryor was one of many terrible picks.  I don't think people quibble with the Clinton-Dix, Keanu Neal or Landon Collins pick.   People don't quibble with the Earl Thomas, Eric Berry or Sean Taylor pick either.  There is no issue with taking these safeties that high, and plenty other safeties and CBS will go where you would expect to see them, if not lower (Baker, Peppers, CT guy, etc.).  

The issue the Jets will likely face is balancing BPA/team fit/QB deficit in sifting through their likely options at 6 if they don't trade-Allen, Thomas, Foster, the WRs, Trubisky.  

Picking one of Hooker or Adams would be a high class problem.  I don't see the Jets having it.

[Sperm Edwards]

13 hours ago, cant wait said:

I'd prefer a trade down too, filling out a complete roster is most important right now. I think in terms of player evaluation though there's really two main factors at stake- talent level/positional value, something measured in tiers I.e. QB 100, WR 90, DE 80 etc. so if a players talent level is 100 but their positional value might take them down to an 80 when making a final draft board grade. just goes to show how critical a teams trust in its scouting is, since by no means is it an exact science, and that's not taking into account relative depth or scarcity in certain classes or external  player issues or roster needs

Yeah, maybe. But they should be - and they probably are - doing something like that anyway. I just think they aren't giving enough weight to the positional value, and that leads to drafting cheap or redundant positions early, leaving the team to fill holes at all the most expensive positions through free agency. Any such measurement system should also marry that prospect's value to the draft position.

In fairness, it's not just our FOs of past and present; lots of teams do have a talent+position value system like this. But the thing is, all teams aren't in the same situations. A team that already has locked up their QB, OPR, CB1, LT - or a team that has filled 2-3 of those 4 - can put less weight on the positional value than a team like the Jets, who frankly have none of those positions filled beyond crossing fingers. On such a team, positional value should be given far more weight than for a team that isn't lacking at such positions. I don't see how a team with all those needs uses such high picks on safeties, ILBs, and (at the time) our fourth 1st round 3-4 DE prospect. Those are luxury picks for such a team.

When it's our pick, the BPA may be a guy with 160 "points" using something you've outlined above, but that doesn't therefore mean take that BPA. A guy with 160 points maybe we shouldn't touch until at least the 15th (if not the 25th) selection. So if we pick 6th, it means trading down rather than robotically pulling the trigger on the BPA.

[derp]

The Jets are in a tough spot this draft because the areas of strong positional value (namely QB, EDGE, offensive tackle) are not strong at 6. So they're arguably left with a choice between the better player and the player with more positional value. Which is probably why trading down is appealing - let the board fall a little more and helps make your decision easier. I don't think you're passing on someone at 6 you definitely couldn't get later - unless Thomas falls.

Which brings me to - Thomas is the most interesting guy we don't talk about here because he's arguably the only guy worth pick 6 who won't be taken (Garrett) and actually could fit one of those elite value positions. The problem is that he's kind of a swing EDGE/interior DL, a lot of teams see him as more of a 4-3 base end who can kick inside on passing downs and I'm not sure how that fits the Jets as currently constituted. However, if you're Maccagnan is this a scenario where you take a 4-3 end knowing full well he might get misused but force Bowles to make it work and hope it hits and you've got a solid 4-3 end for the next coaching staff it he gets let go? Drafting for scheme fit seems kind of silly at this point and if you get rid of Richardson you could easily fit Thomas, Williams, and Wilkerson on a 4 man line. Doesn't hurt that Thomas is a legitimately really good athlete with good movement skills so you could probably stand him up for the time being, certainly moreso than Richardson - and he's young which I think Maccagnan goes for though maybe that's a coincidence. I also like that he's got experience as an interior DL as that tends to mean there's more experience and development in hand usage which is great for the transition to the NFL.

Also, I go back and forth on the value of a WR fitting in the top 10 area. I think for the right guy it's probably worthwhile even though I don't think teams have won Super Bowls doing it. And I think that's how you have to view Howard if the Jets draft him. He's an elite athlete overall. There are a ton of people with wood for Mike Williams here and Howard is essentially equal or better physically in every way - bigger, stronger, faster. Williams beat him by 2.5 inches on the vert but neither was impressive. The question you have to answer with Howard was why Alabama didn't figure out a way to use him better as his production wasn't excellent - but then elite in title games. Obviously QB play was not outstanding this year but that's the big question. He can block too. I struggle to see a scenario where he doesn't have a 10 year NFL career as long as he stays healthy and I think there's a chance he's one of the 3 best TE's in football and a tremendous weapon for a young QB - which is important as you're developing a team. The fact that he's solid overall and has that elite athleticism to potentially be more is really appealing.

The other interesting thing about Howard is he's got awesome size but not a great vertical and you don't really see him go up and get the ball like a Jimmy Graham, so I think he's more of a move TE and a seam stretcher than a jump ball guy or a big-time red zone threat. I'd love to see the Jets run more two TE stuff over the next few years so double dipping in this draft with Howard and another guy - whether it's a move guy or a blocker who can also catch - could mean more sets you can run out of or pass and you've got some security blankets for whatever young QB you're moving forward with.

A cool random Howard fact is 14 WR's have been drafted in the top 15 since 2008 - only ones with a better three cone are one bust (Darrius Heyward-Bey) and three elite WR's (AJ Green, Julio Jones, Odell Beckham). He's got big-time movement skills for a guy who's 251 and almost 6'6.

[cant wait]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Yeah, maybe. But they should be - and they probably are - doing something like that anyway. I just think they aren't giving enough weight to the positional value, and that leads to drafting cheap or redundant positions early, leaving the team to fill holes at all the most expensive positions through free agency. Any such measurement system should also marry that prospect's value to the draft position.

In fairness, it's not just our FOs of past and present; lots of teams do have a talent+position value system like this. But the thing is, all teams aren't in the same situations. A team that already has locked up their QB, OPR, CB1, LT - or a team that has filled 2-3 of those 4 - can put less weight on the positional value than a team like the Jets, who frankly have none of those positions filled beyond crossing fingers. On such a team, positional value should be given far more weight than for a team that isn't lacking at such positions. I don't see how a team with all those needs uses such high picks on safeties, ILBs, and (at the time) our fourth 1st round 3-4 DE prospect. Those are luxury picks for such a team.

When it's our pick, the BPA may be a guy with 160 "points" using something you've outlined above, but that doesn't therefore mean take that BPA. A guy with 160 points maybe we shouldn't touch until at least the 15th (if not the 25th) selection. So if we pick 6th, it means trading down rather than robotically pulling the trigger on the BPA.

Well that's the fear that when pick 6 rolls around if BPA is another 5 tech DE in this case jonathan allen, great talent/value but the one position the jets absolutely do not need... then the question becomes do you take a lesser value pick or do you take a lowball trade back offer? or do you hold your nose and take the player- I would have said no way in hell when williams was sitting there but this would even be more egregious considering the current roster construction 

[varjet]

9 hours ago, cant wait said:

Well that's the fear that when pick 6 rolls around if BPA is another 5 tech DE in this case jonathan allen, great talent/value but the one position the jets absolutely do not need... then the question becomes do you take a lesser value pick or do you take a lowball trade back offer? or do you hold your nose and take the player- I would have said no way in hell when williams was sitting there but this would even be more egregious considering the current roster construction 

I think Macc quadruples down on the DT/DE at his peril.   The fan base that generally likes him will villify him.  He can't move Mo, and he likely will not have moved SR.  At that point take Corey Davis or Williams and cut Decker.

[CrazyCarl40]

5 hours ago, varjet said:

I think Macc quadruples down on the DT/DE at his peril.   The fan base that generally likes him will villify him.  He can't move Mo, and he likely will not have moved SR.  At that point take Corey Davis or Williams and cut Decker.

Why cut Decker? That makes zero sense if you're trying to help Petty or Hack. I also don't think a WR is worth taking top ten unless it's a generational talent which neither of those guys are. 

[SickJetFan]

On 4/6/2017 at 6:36 PM, Sperm Edwards said:

Nah. What the Jets need more than anything is a really good, reliable QB. What the Jets need next is (pick your own order) a serious pass rusher, a really good cover corner, and a blindside pass protector. The best "stud player" at any random position, with crap at 4 more important positions, is not nearly as useful as a complete team that's solid all around.

I cannot recall the last time a team drafted a safety that early and then rode that team to the Super Bowl. If he merely ends up being a legit or kinda solid starter, then it's a lousy pick and is the reason there are only like 2 safeties in the league making more than a nominal amount over $10m/yr. He'll, there aren't even ten of them making more than Brian Winters. So if he isn't a top-2 safety for the next decade, it's a bad pick.

If our GM needs a top 6 overall pick to nail a draft pick, then he's not that useful.

He's indicated he wants to trade down. If he's not taking a premiere position player, hopefully he does just that.

I cannot recall the last time a team drafted a safety that early and then rode that team to the Super Bowl.

Seattle....Earl Thomss pick 14 

[Sperm Edwards]

10 hours ago, SickJetFan said:

I cannot recall the last time a team drafted a safety that early and then rode that team to the Super Bowl.

Seattle....Earl Thomss pick 14 

Yeah agreed. Plus #14 overall isn't nearly the same as #6 overall. Chart-wise, it works out pretty neatly to pick up roughly that same (#14) pick in round 2 for trading down. If that 2nd rounder had such little value then we'd have over a dozen offers of that or better for Richardson.

Plus just because a team once did that - drafting low-dollar and redundant, already-filled positions - doesn't mean we can keep doing that every year. Imagine how long it'd take to fill out a serious contender other than getting lucky with premiere positions in rounds 3-5. 

[Tinstar]

12 hours ago, SickJetFan said:

I cannot recall the last time a team drafted a safety that early and then rode that team to the Super Bowl.

Seattle....Earl Thomss pick 14 

So you think Earl Thomas had more to do with the Seahawks making the SB than say Marshawn Lynch and Russell Wilson .

[SickJetFan]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Yeah agreed. Plus #14 overall isn't nearly the same as #6 overall. Chart-wise, it works out pretty neatly to pick up roughly that same (#14) pick in round 2 for trading down. If that 2nd rounder had such little value then we'd have over a dozen offers of that or better for Richardson.

Plus just because a team once did that - drafting low-dollar and redundant, already-filled positions - doesn't mean we can keep doing that every year. Imagine how long it'd take to fill out a serious contender other than getting lucky with premiere positions in rounds 3-5. 

He not only did it once in that draft but he doubled down and drafted another S in that same draft.....what an idiot wasting so much on a such unimportant position...