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Jetster

By Jetster
in NY Jets Forum

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NoBowles

NoBowles

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2 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Which is why I default to what looks closer to industry standard most cases.

I get it, I just have seen enough from the Jets to say I don't think they are operating to industry standards, but all of this is really just mental masturbation anyway, none of us knows for sure.

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JustInFudge

JustInFudge

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17 minutes ago, NoBowles said:

 

Agree completely, its hard to ignore these things. Its fun to kill Mac as the traditional GM, but all indications are that he is not a traditional GM, and more of a puppet.

Todd Bowles is the ultimate players coach.  You can literally do whatever the **** you want, as long as you have a name and it's all just part of the game, no big deal.

Big Mac strikes me as an almost fanboy like GM who doesn't know a Safety from a TE who ultimately would just bow down to a former player/Parcell disciple when it comes to player evaluation and building a roster. 

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RESNewYork

RESNewYork

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1 hour ago, gEYno said:

Apologize for the tl;dr, but it's a well thought out question so it merits a thought out response.

I don't KNOW it.  I don't know anything about the inner workings of the Jets organization.  The issue I have, and kind of my whole point here and in other threads, is that none of us have any legitimate reason to believe that it's actually Bowles calling the shots.  People are guessing.  So, instead of doing that, I default to the typical structure until proven otherwise.  Do I believe that Macc is likely targeting the "type" of player that Bowles wants?  Sure, that's fair.  But, Macc is still responsible for getting good players.  Thus far, he really hasn't.  The overall outlook of the franchise would be much better if we merely had a bad philosophy, but good players.

Darron Lee is a good example.  While he's strung together a few decent games, overall, his play has been poor.  I don't personally agree with the decision to draft an undersized ILB that early.  Let's say you're right, blame it on Bowles.  But, it's not Bowles's job to scout too (unless we're really going to stretch this).  Macc is responsible for taking the wrong ILB, or not saying this guy isn't worth our 1st round pick.  So, even if we blame Bowles for a bad philosophy I think we still need to blame Macc for poor execution of that philosophy.  Interestingly, people today are pretty happy with the performance of our two safeties.  I personally think it's a philosophically bad decision, one that unless they prove to be the top tandem in the NFL, was absolutely not a smart way to build a team.  In this case though, you don't hear people praising Bowles for it, as they're happy with the players.  Macc receives the credit.  Why is that, when, if we are to blame Bowles for the failures, does he not get credit for the successes in the draft room?  

Philosophy aside, look at Macc's 1st two drafts - how many of those players are on the roster/contributing, and it's only year 3?

I guess what I'm saying is that blaming things on Bowles that typically fall in the GM's domain, especially with a 1st time coach who doesn't have the clout to demand running an organization by himself, that there's not strong enough reason to read between the lines the way that some are doing.

Yes, as you point out they were hired at the same time, and given equal footing.  But everyone wants to suggest that Bowles is making personnel decisions, but no one wants to suggest that Macc is making play calling/strategy decisions.  Why is that?  Why can we break the typical structure in one direction, but not in the other.  I think, without evidence to the contrary, we still need to assume each is doing their job description.  I also think there is a difference between "being on the same page" and the GM just deferring to the HC for all of his job responsibilities.  Again, are they on the same page enough that Macc can in a play as he sees fit, as it was rumored Al Davis used to do?

So, that's what I kind of "know," or better yet, don't know.  For what I believe.  I think coaching is important, but I think coaches coach and players play.  I don't think any coach would succeed with this roster.  I think we'd be right about where we are, regardless of who we had.  I think that just blaming the coach is lazy thinking that we as Jets fans have exercised consistently since Al Groh until today.  And, not just with HCs, but also coordinators.  And, it's literally never paid off, not once.  I think that it's easy to blame the coach, because it helps us to imagine that we can just be rid of him, and the team will get much better.  It's harder to blame the whole thing, because there's no magic solution at the end of that rainbow that makes the team suddenly better.

Very well thought out post.

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UnitedWhofans

UnitedWhofans

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Just now, JiF said:

Todd Bowles is the ultimate players coach.  You can literally do whatever the **** you want, as long as you have a name and it's all just part of the game, no big deal.

Big Mac strikes me as an almost fanboy like GM who doesn't know a Safety from a TE who ultimately would just bow down to a former player/Parcell disciple when it comes to player evaluation and building a roster. 

SO Bill Parcells is an idiot..

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JustInFudge

JustInFudge

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9 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

SO Bill Parcells is an idiot..

Whofans, this is precisely what I said in my post but in a much more concise manner.  Thank you for simplifying my thoughts and saving the board some time by not having to read my post. 

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bitonti

bitonti

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they have no edge rushers, 1 starting quality CB and a quarterback on his 8th starting job. 

Todd Bowles is coaching half a football team right now 

Side note 2 mundane things happened with yesterday's game and  most people aren't talking about

1) the turf was so terrible it was borderline irresponsible to hold an NFL game there 2) the Jets bench was in the blazing sun the whole time while the Dolphins bench had the shade I'm not saying it wasn't Bowles fault they lost or that Josh McCown and Buster Skrine are good football players. What I am saying is the conditions were not ideal and they just ran out of gas. 

 

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ZachEY

ZachEY

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Just now, UnitedWhofans said:

But my insult came with a point that you, as a football fan, should know. You knew they hosted a playoff game and deliberately ignored that point.

Winning a wild card round after a losing season does not a Super Bowl team make.  And this was 2 seasons before Wilson.  After most losing seasons, you don't make the playoffs.  You should know that too.  So, I guess you're the fool.

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UnitedWhofans

UnitedWhofans

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1 minute ago, gEYno said:

Winning a wild card round after a losing season does not a Super Bowl team make.  And this was 2 seasons before Wilson.  After most losing seasons, you don't make the playoffs.  You should know that too.  So, I guess you're the fool.

Not in this NFL. You can go from bottom to top in one year easily,

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Snell41

Snell41

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Posted

A lot of GM's need to be evaluated for not taking Watson. He was the concensus #1 before he even played his first snap of his final year in college. I even recall suck for Watson threads.

But to me what's really concerning is the reports of how close we were to trading up for Goff/Wentz. I remember reports we were "very close" to offering enough. I'd love to know what would have put us over the edge, because both of them look like legit franchise guys and were likely worth whatever it was.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

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RESNewYork

RESNewYork

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16 minutes ago, NoBowles said:

I think most of what we post here is based on assumptions and opinions. We take bits and pieces of information that we get, try to decipher it, and then make decisions and opinions and post them. Very little can be backed by 100% fact becasue we are not in the rooms. 

How about 10%.

Previous post said there were articles and leaks about how Bowles also controls the personnel side of the team. Just curious how opinions made on this board, become facts, and how that is an indictment on Bowles. 

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Adoni Beast

Adoni Beast

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Posted

Overreaction. We shouldn't have lost this game, but even HOF coaches with veteran teams have their teams squander leads. It happens.

Bowles has this team ready to play every week. Say what you want about him, he retooled the coaching staff and looks to have surprised us all and put together a good staff. He's getting his players in, and has most of them on developing.

Hate to place blame on just QB cause its not all his fault, and he's played way better than expected. But, most NFL games come down to a few plays the swing victory, and the last two weeks McCown's INTs have come at killer times. Yes, there are plenty of other plays that were just as big. But, get this guy a real QB, some more pieces and time to develop and I think this team will be a contender.

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#27TheDominator

#27TheDominator

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Just now, UnitedWhofans said:

We need a C and an OLB. Everything else we already have

Who do we have?  

March of 2018 Seferian-Jenkins, Claiborne, Kerley, Enunwa and Demario Davis should all be free agents.  If you think Kelvin Beachum has resolved all questions at LT, I can't help you, but I am dubious. LT and RB are the only two that are even arguable at this point and there are plenty of other positions I can question, I was just sticking to the obvious. 

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UnitedWhofans

UnitedWhofans

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1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

Who do we have?  

March of 2018 Seferian-Jenkins, Claiborne, Kerley, Enunwa and Demario Davis should all be free agents.  If you think Kelvin Beachum has resolved all questions at LT, I can't help you, but I am dubious. LT and RB are the only two that are even arguable at this point and there are plenty of other positions I can question, I was just sticking to the obvious. 

You do know we have 80m in cap space right? and those players will not get big time deals. Trust me on that. And if they trade Wilkerson, the cap room goes up.

As for Beachum, I havent really heard his name being highlighted, which I guess is a good thing for an OL.

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#27TheDominator

#27TheDominator

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8 minutes ago, bitonti said:

they have no edge rushers, 1 starting quality CB and a quarterback on his 8th starting job. 

Todd Bowles is coaching half a football team right now 

 

Side note 2 mundane things happened with yesterday's game and  most people aren't talking about

1) the turf was so terrible it was borderline irresponsible to hold an NFL game there 2) the Jets bench was in the blazing sun the whole time while the Dolphins bench had the shade I'm not saying it wasn't Bowles fault they lost or that Josh McCown and Buster Skrine are good football players. What I am saying is the conditions were not ideal and they just ran out of gas. 

 

One nitpick: It is McCown's 8th job, it's only like his 6th starting job. 

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Jetster

Jetster

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30 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

If they are out of their depth, why are they 3-4? Why arent they 0-7

Because Morton & Bates are doing a helluva job with a Journeyman & a bunch of average offensive players! The defense SUCKED in Cleveland, my god Kiser was going up & down the field & self destructed, wasn't anything the defense did. Defense couldn't stop the Raiders & put the offense in a huge hole, the offense dug back before the stupid fumbled punt.  Put the offense up big on the Jags, Bowles & Rogers defense almost lost it. Up 14 points on the Patriots, defense could hold them to at least FGs? NOPE just 2 easy TDs to tie the game. Yesterday, Jets offense scored 28 points vs the Fins up 2 TDs to start the 4th! What does Bowles & Rogers D do? Butter! This defense is BUTTER when they need to step up! Don't blame the offense. I'd LOVE to see what Morton & Bates could do with a legitimate QB.

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NoBowles

NoBowles

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1 minute ago, RESNewYork said:

How about 10%.

Previous post said there were articles and leaks about how Bowles also controls the personnel side of the team. Just curious how opinions made on this board, become facts, and how that is an indictment on Bowles. 

I have never said Bowles CONTROLS the personnel side of the team, but I did say that there have been leaks and indications about how things may be operating in Florham park. I pointed out the Schefter leak about Bowles not liking Paxton Lynch, and the jets not drafting him. I did point out the press conference about Bowles saying we would never draft a player in round 1 that won't start on day 1, or saying Fitzpatrick is our starter when he is a free agent. These are not generally things you hear/read when a HC doesn't have a significant hand in the personnel decisions being made. Do I know how much, no, nobody does for sure outside of a few people. When I look at the personnel moves, FA's and draft picks since the two have been here, I can come to a couple of possible conclusions.

1) Bowles has as much if not more say than Mac does on final personnel strategy

2) Bowles and Mac have equal say, with one having slightly more power, and maybe Woody or his bro having tie breaking power

3) Mac is so enamored with Bowles that he is getting him exactly what he wants.

I personally can't come to any other conclusions, but that doesn't mean I am right either. These are my opinions.

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ZachEY

ZachEY

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6 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Not in this NFL. You can go from bottom to top in one year easily,

So, then it'd be impossible to even define what a Super Bowl caliber team is until you actually win one.  So, maybe the Jets should have drafted the QB this year, because then they'd only be a SS, C, and OLB away, as you've already stated.

Whofans, we're done here.

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UnitedWhofans

UnitedWhofans

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Posted
Just now, gEYno said:

So, then it'd be impossible to even define what a Super Bowl caliber team is until you actually win one.  So, maybe the Jets should have drafted the QB this year, because then they'd only be a SS, C, and OLB away, as you've already stated.

Whofans, we're done here.

No because then if your team is incomplete, the QB could become scared and not confident. Watson has a great team around him. How do I know this? Because Brian Hoyer started a home playoff game for them. BRIAN HOYER

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MDL_JET

MDL_JET

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2 minutes ago, NoBowles said:

I have never said Bowles CONTROLS the personnel side of the team, but I did say that there have been leaks and indications about how things may be operating in Florham park. I pointed out the Schefter leak about Bowles not liking Paxton Lynch, and the jets not drafting him. I did point out the press conference about Bowles saying we would never draft a player in round 1 that won't start on day 1, or saying Fitzpatrick is our starter when he is a free agent. These are not generally things you hear/read when a HC doesn't have a significant hand in the personnel decisions being made. Do I know how much, no, nobody does for sure outside of a few people. When I look at the personnel moves, FA's and draft picks since the two have been here, I can come to a couple of possible conclusions.

1) Bowles has as much if not more say than Mac does on final personnel strategy

2) Bowles and Mac have equal say, with one having slightly more power, and maybe Woody or his bro having tie breaking power

3) Mac is so enamored with Bowles that he is getting him exactly what he wants.

I personally can't come to any other conclusions, but that doesn't mean I am right either. These are my opinions.

I don't think one has more power then the other. I think it's Macs final call on actual roster decisions and drafting but overall I would believe they're working together. Mac is obviously taking into account what Bowles wants, it's his team and he's making it run on gameday. What can I do to make this better on the field for you. Isn't that how it usually works? Not that I have any clue.

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Bugg

Bugg

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44 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Thats dumb. And stupid. And totally in the range of this dumb fanbase.

No, it's actually perceptive. Swap out Adams, the defense, which sucks, is little worse. Swap out McCown for Watson, this is a pretty good offense. Of course, that would have taken a  GM with a shred of vision beyond the stupidity of picking safeties and a coach and CO sharp enough to recognize Watson's talent.

Those obviously are very big IFS at Florham Park.

Adams was the safe consensus pick, because you can whiff on a safety for a few seasons and nobody much cares until 2 or 3 years down the line like Pryor you can no longer deny it.But a horse built by a committee is a camel.  A QB is right freaking there if it fails. But it's a scared way of doing business. If Watson was picked, played and succeeded(all very plausible if the pick had been made), this team would be challenging for the AFCE. But if you're small-minded and you want to obsess over defense in 2017, good for you. 

 

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#27TheDominator

#27TheDominator

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7 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

You do know we have 80m in cap space right? and those players will not get big time deals. Trust me on that. And if they trade Wilkerson, the cap room goes up.

As for Beachum, I havent really heard his name being highlighted, which I guess is a good thing for an OL.

You keep yapping about that.  I don't care about the cap space. How much did they have in 2015?  They had over $50M and they still weren't/aren't ready to sign a QB according to you.   If they trade Wilkerson, you can add DE to their list of needs. I'm sure you think all the guys on this 3-3 team are good enough going forward, but I don't and I also don't think there is any slam dunk they will find with the pick they got for Sheldon to fill any of these holes.  

The Jets are tied for 6th in sacks allowed and have allowed the 7th most QB hits.  Only the Colts have given up more than 2 sacks more than the Jets. Since you think the line is set except for C, I guess Wesley Johnson is giving up a ton of pressure. 

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UnitedWhofans

UnitedWhofans

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Just now, #27TheDominator said:

You keep yapping about that.  I don't care about the cap space. How much did they have in 2015?  They had over $50M and they still weren't/aren't ready to sign a QB according to you.   If they trade Wilkerson, you can add DE to their list of needs. I'm sure you think all the guys on this 3-3 team are good enough going forward, but I don't and I also don't think there is any slam dunk they will find with the pick they got for Sheldon to fill any of these holes.  

The Jets are tied for 6th in sacks allowed and have allowed the 7th most QB hits.  Only the Colts have given up more than 2 sacks more than the Jets. Since you think the line is set except for C, I guess Wesley Johnson is giving up a ton of pressure. 

I think Cimini said yesterda that as soon a Shell went out with an injury,, the OL deteriorated.

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UnitedWhofans

UnitedWhofans

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4 minutes ago, Bugg said:

No, it's actually perceptive. Swap out Adams, the defense, which sucks, is little worse. Swap out McCown for Watson, this is a pretty good offense. Of course, that would have taken a  GM with a shred of vision beyond the stupidity of picking safeties and a coach and CO sharp enough to recognize Watson's talent.

Those obviously are very big IFS at Florham Park.

Adams was the safe consensus pick, because you can whiff on a safety for a few seasons and nobody much cares until 2 or 3 years down the line like Pryor you can no longer deny it.But a horse built by a committee is a camel.  A QB is right freaking there if it fails. But it's a scared way of doing business. If Watson was picked, played and succeeded(all very plausible if the pick had been made), this team would be challenging for the AFCE. But if you're small-minded and you want to obsess over defense in 2017, good for you. 

 

So why wasnt Watson taken in the top ten? I guess a lot of GMs are stupid

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