The cigar store Indian has got to go!

[joewilly12]

Just now, SAR I said:

You are out of your mind.  In the big picture, Maccagnan is doing a good job, the team is on track, it's a rebuild and he is adding some decent pieces on the roster and the coaching staff.

Maybe I am but a rebuild should not include starting a 38 yr old journeyman loser bum QB. 

Macc had 3 years to get a QB in here Hackenberg is a bust. 

Agree on Bowles seems to be regressing week to week like he just doesn't get it. 

[NoBowles]

1 minute ago, RESNewYork said:

not sure what the difference is but OK. 

Most of the arguments on here stem from the roster. If you and others believe that is because of Bowles than what am I debating for. 

 

I believe our current roster is a result of a few things:

1) Woody telling the dynamic duo to win in year 1, which required some longer term sacrifices for short term small satisfaction

2) Bowles getting the defensive personnel he has wanted in drafts

3) Maccagnan being a puppet

4) 2 years of drafts from Idzik and nothing to show for it.

[NoBowles]

19 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

^

Not mod material

lol

[Charlie Brown]

14 minutes ago, NoBowles said:

I don't believe he is the pseudo GM, I believe he is making major personnel decisions.

I know I am butting in.....  

If you really believe this; the why are the Jets paying a GM?

And if it is true isn’t this an indictment of Mac?

[NoBowles]

2 minutes ago, Charlie Brown said:

I know I am butting in.....  

If you really believe this; the why are the Jets paying a GM?

And if it is true isn’t this an indictment of Mac?

No butting in, in a message board, its why we are here

Well, there is a lot more to a GM's job than just making personnel decisions. There are a ton of administrative, contract related, league related issues that a GM has to make. I believe even the Pats have a GM, doesn't mean they are making personnel decisions, we know Belli does that.

I don't know what Mac is, my guess is he is a puppet. But if Woody is the boss, and the boss's orders are for the GM to get the guys that the HC wants, that is what he is going to do, no?

[RESNewYork]

1 minute ago, NoBowles said:

I believe our current roster is a result of a few things:

1) Woody telling the dynamic duo to win in year 1, which required some longer term sacrifices for short term small satisfaction

2) Bowles getting the defensive personnel he has wanted in drafts

3) Maccagnan being a puppet

4) 2 years of drafts from Idzik and nothing to show for it.

I don't see any evidence of Mac being a puppet when I search.

I do see this about the structure of the Jets:

https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Jets reporting structure&src=typd

Ian Rapoport‏Verified account @RapSheet

#Jets reporting structure: GM Mike Maccagnan has final say of the 53-man roster. He reports to Woody Johnson. The HC reports to Woody too

5:44 PM - 13 Jan 2015

And then there is this:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2016/story/_/page/32for32x160417/nfl-draft-2016-ultimate-decision-maker-all-32-teams-general-manager-coach-both

New York Jets: General manager Mike Maccagnan has the final say in the Jets' draft room. As a former scout, Maccagnan respects the scouting process and seeks input from those around him, especially his top lieutenants, Rex Hogan and Brian Heimerdinger. But in the end, it's his call. -- Rich Cimini

 

So I assume Mac has control of the 53, Bowles controls the depth chart? Maybe?

[section314]

8 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Of course they get it.  McCown is worse than Fitzpatrick.  That's why he was so cheap and available.

You are out of your mind.  In the big picture, Maccagnan is doing a good job, the team is on track, it's a rebuild and he is adding some decent pieces on the roster and the coaching staff.

What worries me is Bowles.  He isn't learning, he isn't growing.  Two devastating, game-losing TD's at the end of two halves because he thinks Josh McCown is Peyton Manning is ridiculous.

SAR I

If Skrine, for his horrible play, or Anderson, for his inexcusable behavior at the end of the game, even see the field this Sunday, I think it would be a bigger indictment of him than going for it  in both those games/

[Smashmouth]

1 hour ago, gEYno said:

Smash...

Smash...

Repeat after me.

Harbaugh has no interest in the Jets.

Harbaugh has no interest in the Jets.

 

 

Also, if Harbaugh needs some "nice free agent signings and some solid drafts" why wouldn't Bowles, since he's really gotten neither?

I know EY thats why I called it a crap shoot but we have seen things like this before make a turn so ya never know. 

[joewilly12]

1 minute ago, section314 said:

If Skrine, for his horrible play, or Anderson, for his inexcusable behavior at the end of the game, even see the field this Sunday, I think it would be a bigger indictment of him than going for it  in both those games/

Absolutely agree with you on this.  

Calvin Watkins 

 

✔@calvinwatkins

 

Todd Bowles said Buster Skrine was to blame for the Landry TD. No plans to bench him.

[section314]

And the Stills TD, and 5 penalties. 

[ZachEY]

41 minutes ago, jetrider said:

You like to ignore the obvious and argue for the sake of arguing

If your unsubstantiated opinions are now "the obvious," then yes, I'm exceptionally comfortable ignoring "the obvious."

[nyjunc]

1 hour ago, RESNewYork said:

Fair but argument can be made with this roster, team has to play perfect to compete. Before the season, this board only spoke of "tank". We have a god damn jet fan waving a Darnold Jet jersey.

So now expectations have changed because they team expectations were exceeded? Why is that? Because of the way they performed in previous games? 

The question I have is for the crowd that wants to fire Bowles, how many current NFL coaches would you be happy with? I can almost guarantee the one you choose has either a legitimate franchise QB, or has the same issues that we fault Bowles for. Who is the coach that is coming in?

I am Bowles supporter because he's been able to compete with poor rosters and even poorer options at the supposed most important position. His starting QBs for 2 1/2 seasons has been Fitz, Geno, Petty, and McCown. That is not easy.

things change quickly in this league.  the preseason talk is just preseason talk- remember the giants were a SB favorite coming into the year, right? 

again, Rex made 2 title games w/ Mark Sanchez and mark had half the talent around him that Fitz had in 2015.  I am not a fan of these excuses.

Bowles had a cupcake walk to the playoffs in 2015 and failed, had deep playoff aspirations in 2016 and the season was over by October.  This year he has exceeded expectations so far but we still see the wasted TOs, the poor decisions when to be conservative or when to be aggressive, just the overall feel for managing a game.  again, his lone good quality has been his ability to not get to high or too low, that usually translates to a team that can survive tough moments but 3 of the last 4 weeks we have blown double digit leads- he's becoming a combo of Bruce Coslet and Rich Kotite and that's not good.  Believe me, I want Bowles to be great.  I have given him numerous opportunities and I am happy he has this team competing but expectations change and just competing isn't good enough when you have 14 pt 4th qtr leads.

1 hour ago, bitonti said:

the flaws with the D are Mac problems. They don't have any edge rushers or enough CBs. Skrine is supposed to be a nickel. 

It's the same with the offense. Bowles can't bench Skrine or McCown cause there are no better options on the roster that Mac constructed. 

when is the last time we had a real edge rusher?  Hugh Douglas?  that's not an excuse.

the roster is the roster, the same roster that had him up 14 on NE and the same roster that had him up 14 on Mia in the 4th qtr.

[NoBowles]

Can someone explain to me the cigar store Indian analogy being used here? I am not sure I get it.

[joewilly12]

Just now, NoBowles said:

Can someone explain to me the cigar store Indian analogy being used here? I am not sure I get it.

My guess is a cigar store Indian just stands around no purpose no expression no usefulness just takes up space. 

[RESNewYork]

3 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

things change quickly in this league.  the preseason talk is just preseason talk- remember the giants were a SB favorite coming into the year, right? 

again, Rex made 2 title games w/ Mark Sanchez and mark had half the talent around him that Fitz had in 2015.  I am not a fan of these excuses.

Bowles had a cupcake walk to the playoffs in 2015 and failed, had deep playoff aspirations in 2016 and the season was over by October.  This year he has exceeded expectations so far but we still see the wasted TOs, the poor decisions when to be conservative or when to be aggressive, just the overall feel for managing a game.  again, his lone good quality has been his ability to not get to high or too low, that usually translates to a team that can survive tough moments but 3 of the last 4 weeks we have blown double digit leads- he's becoming a combo of Bruce Coslet and Rich Kotite and that's not good.  Believe me, I want Bowles to be great.  I have given him numerous opportunities and I am happy he has this team competing but expectations change and just competing isn't good enough when you have 14 pt 4th qtr leads.

when is the last time we had a real edge rusher?  Hugh Douglas?  that's not an excuse.

the roster is the roster, the same roster that had him up 14 on NE and the same roster that had him up 14 on Mia in the 4th qtr.

Come on really? So Bowles underachieved in 2015 because the Jets had a cupcake schedule.

Was there really a coach in 2016 that would have taken that roster to the playoffs?

This aggressive conservative argument is literally backed by no facts. Are you really telling me that you or other fans on this board can tell by the play calling that the Jets have gone conservative? Or is that simply a product of the Jets drives stalling because of execution. I have to say, fans assume the playcalling. I don't understand the concept of the Jets are going into a mode of offense where they have decided to abandon the goal of scoring and have switched to an offense that will take time off the clock. I mean really? Was there a stretch where they stopped passing? Was there a stretch of run, run, run. Was there a stretch where they didn't throw past the 1st down marker? I didn't see any of that yesterday. And on defense. Some fans complain they went into prevent. Others say CB was left on an island. 

Fans also don't have any idea about clock management as well. We have fans complaining about not enough time outs for the end of the Pats game, but let's waste the 3 timeouts at the end of the Dolphins game. I saw a fan post yesterday complaining Bolwes used his time outs when the Dolphins got the ball back at the end not realizing the Dolphins aren't going to use timeouts in that situation because they want the kick to be the last play. 

I'm pissed too they lost, but I see a coach who can compete with a flawed roster. And in my opinion, firing Bowles is a mistake. 

[SAR I]

15 minutes ago, NoBowles said:

Can someone explain to me the cigar store Indian analogy being used here? I am not sure I get it.

A useless statue of a minority.

SAR I

[SAR I]

25 minutes ago, section314 said:

If Skrine, for his horrible play, or Anderson, for his inexcusable behavior at the end of the game, even see the field this Sunday, I think it would be a bigger indictment of him than going for it  in both those games/

Agreed.  Look, Bowles has done some nice things this season when it comes to culture and effort and that is commendable.

However, on gameday, he's Rex Ryan II with all the clock management issues and lack of halftime adjustment issues and stupid penalty issues and infuriatingly bad playcalling issues.  And that's not something he's going to change.  And that's not something we can live with.

SAR I

[Sperm Edwards]

32 minutes ago, gEYno said:

If your unsubstantiated opinions are now "the obvious," then yes, I'm exceptionally comfortable ignoring "the obvious."

Come, now. How can you not see he's the power behind the throne. Our beloved Jets' dim version of the Illuminati? The Dimunati, if you will.

Yep, I went there. And soon I'm going back for more until someone with enough power stops me. 

Someone like Todd Bowles. Because @Maxman is just his puppet and has no real power without Todd's say-so. 

[Sperm Edwards]

2 hours ago, gEYno said:

Circular logic certainly does help to reinforce ones own conclusions.

When I read this fast it sound like it starts cigar-ular logic. Coincidence, or should I change the thread title and find out if it still seems like that tomorrow? 

[UnitedWhofans]

35 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Agreed.  Look, Bowles has done some nice things this season when it comes to culture and effort and that is commendable.

However, on gameday, he's Rex Ryan II with all the clock management issues and lack of halftime adjustment issues and stupid penalty issues and infuriatingly bad playcalling issues.  And that's not something he's going to change.  And that's not something we can live with.

SAR I

That's fair. DO you want John Morton gone?

[SAR I]

4 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

That's fair. DO you want John Morton gone?

No.  He's a brand new OC and has done suprisingly well with such a weak offensive roster.

But ultimately it's Todd Bowles who allowed the call to go through, he didn't over-rule, he didn't learn his lessons from three years ago let alone last week, he's terrible.  He's got to be the first guy to go once we have a stacked roster again.  This guy sucks.

SAR I

[section314]

34 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Agreed.  Look, Bowles has done some nice things this season when it comes to culture and effort and that is commendable.

However, on gameday, he's Rex Ryan II with all the clock management issues and lack of halftime adjustment issues and stupid penalty issues and infuriatingly bad playcalling issues.  And that's not something he's going to change.  And that's not something we can live with.

SAR I

You are right. This is Bowles 3rd year as head man. He should be evaluated like you would a 3rd year player. Is he getting better, not making the same mistakes, etc. Sad to say, I don't see the improvement in the key areas, many of which you just mentioned. But I don't want to get back on the coaching merry go round again, either. This is my 38th year of tix, and I'm in the Leon Hess mind set of 'I want results and I want them now."

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, SAR I said:

No.  He's a brand new OC and has done suprisingly well with such a weak offensive roster.

But ultimately it's Todd Bowles who allowed the call to go through, he didn't over-rule, he didn't learn his lessons from three years ago let alone last week, he's terrible.  He's got to be the first guy to go once we have a stacked roster again.  This guy sucks.

SAR I

That's fine. If Bowles goes, there is a big chance that Morton goes too

[section314]

7 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

That's fine. If Bowles goes, there is a big chance that Morton goes too

Unless he gets the head gig offered to him.

[Sperm Edwards]

9 hours ago, bitonti said:

Not really. HC is a full time 80 hour a week sleep on your office couch job. He didn't pick the crap QBs he didn't draft Hackenberg in the 2nd round and he doesn't tell Mac "hey don't worry about QBs, bud. I don't need one."

"Please don't draft an automatic-starter QB that would provide me with a double-sized mulligan for starting a rookie QB after my GM stripped down the roster. I'm good with starting Josh McCown, whom no fan would be screaming to start, no matter what our record is at any point in time. Then next year I still won't want to draft a QB. Instead I'll command my subservient GM to trade our 5th round pick to San Fran for Brian Hoyer."

We know the Jets  staying away from a round 1 QB this year had nothing whatsoever to do with the GM taking Hackenberg in round 2 in the prior year's draft.

I'm 100% sure, it's quite clear, it's beyond obvious, anyone with eyes can see, no one can convince me otherwise...

[RESNewYork]

3 minutes ago, section314 said:

Unless he gets the head gig offered to him.

so the plan to improve the coaching of the team is to hire a position coach who has been an NFL OC for 7 weeks to HC?

[jetrider]

1 hour ago, NoBowles said:

I don't believe he is the pseudo GM, I believe he is making major personnel decisions.

It was Bowles who had slogans posted throughout Atlantic Health: "One team, one goal" ... "If you're not prepared to put the team first, turn around."

It was Bowles who wanted outspoken celebrity vet stars gutted from the roster. It is Bowles who feeds the digital message display panels at the team facility.

It is Bowles running the show, working the levers behind the curtain. But nothing registers to a Bowles-lovin' Macc-hater. He'll look you straight in the eye and go, "Where's the proof?"

[#27TheDominator]

1 hour ago, section314 said:

If Skrine, for his horrible play, or Anderson, for his inexcusable behavior at the end of the game, even see the field this Sunday, I think it would be a bigger indictment of him than going for it  in both those games/

I agree Anderson deserves some punishment, but I don't see how you take him off the field.  

[Sperm Edwards]

2 minutes ago, section314 said:

Unless he gets the head gig offered to him.

First time HC whose resume lists one year of NFL coordinator experience and 5 yrs as a position coach. What could go wrong?

If he's doing a good job as an OC so far, why not let him continue to grow in that capacity first?

Even if Bowles is replaced, depending upon who the replacement is, there's a good chance he'd be retained in that capacity. Having worked under respected NFL coaches Norv, Carroll, Harbaugh, and Payton. Then somehow getting this sorry excuse for a roster to not **** the bed every quarter of every game, without anyone else present to suspect is the real brains behind the operation (like if he was OC under Payton), I actually think there's a high probability he'd be retained. Even a new HC has to have an OC, and their own hand-picked guy isn't necessarily available on demand.

He's under contract and could be seen as more of a magnet-asset than the overwhelming majority of the Jets' roster.

[C Mart]

7 hours ago, Matt39 said:

Pretty much. Maccagnan's basically been in witness protection since he's been hired. The power structure as been vague at best- and with the way the drafts have gone- basically trying to mirror Arizona's defense...this is Bowles' team. 

 

Mccagnan has control of the 53 man and Bowles has control of the game day roster. It’s been reported this way from the start. And I know it’s common here to view everything in a vacuum but I’d be very surprised if that is how Mcc & TB work, in a vacuum. 

Mcc doesn’t speak during the season (except maybe the bye week). When interviewed and asked about playing time he defers to TB to make those decisions but that the two are always talking. 

This is nothing new. Been talked about many times here since ‘15. 

Before it’s brought up AGAIN here this structure isn’t unique. Several teams have the same structure. 

[section314]

11 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I agree Anderson deserves some punishment, but I don't see how you take him off the field.  

 Best punishment is to be inactive. Message to team and player.....you embarrass the team, you sit. 

 

[Larz]

he has his issues, but he was handed a brutal roster

 

[joewilly12]

24 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I agree Anderson deserves some punishment, but I don't see how you take him off the field.  

Easy unless of course it would make the other players mad and we all know Todd Bowles doesn't want that it would disrupt the chemistry here then we'd have players quitting. 

[#27TheDominator]

14 minutes ago, section314 said:

 Best punishment is to be inactive. Message to team and player.....you embarrass the team, you sit. 

Then who should stand?  Amirite?

[section314]

22 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

First time HC whose resume lists one year of NFL coordinator experience and 5 yrs as a position coach. What could go wrong?

If he's doing a good job as an OC so far, why not let him continue to grow in that capacity first?

Even if Bowles is replaced, depending upon who the replacement is, there's a good chance he'd be retained in that capacity. Having worked under respected NFL coaches Norv, Carroll, Harbaugh, and Payton. Then somehow getting this sorry excuse for a roster to not **** the bed every quarter of every game, without anyone else present to suspect is the real brains behind the operation (like if he was OC under Payton), I actually think there's a high probability he'd be retained. Even a new HC has to have an OC, and their own hand-picked guy isn't necessarily available on demand.

He's under contract and could be seen as more of a magnet-asset than the overwhelming majority of the Jets' roster.

Good points. I just think Morton has shown me something in his short time here that makes me think he may be a future HC. And having guys like the two mentioned above rave about you certainly would make you think about it. But, do the Jets really have people in the organization that can think?