Cimini radio hit this morning

[Villain The Foe]

30 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I think you're being very concerned over a very tertiary issue, tbqh.

Especially before we know who our returner will be this year.

I'm far more interested in if we'll put up ~15th ranked Offenses and Defenses, I got to tell you.

Sure, Specials are important.  But like I said, if we're worried about Specials, that itself says alot about Offense and Defense.

Every aspect of this team should be a concern. 

I am concerned about special teams because it's important, just like the offensive line is important...yet another area of the team that the Jets like to ignore. Sure, folks say it's important, but actions are more important than words if you will. 

I dont know what you mean by if im worried about Special that must say alot about offense and defense. 

I think that if im worried about Specials it's because no one really knows who will replace the all pro that we cut, and hopefully we dont end up with a situation where we average 20 yards per kick return and a bunch of fair catches during punts reminiscent of the Jeremy Kerley years. 

Every facet, every group, every part of this team should be important and we should expect high levels from every part.

There are examples of good offensive/defensive teams that have lost games because of special teams. 

[Warfish]

2 minutes ago, bitonti said:

this "line of reasoning" basically says to me you didn't think about it as hard as Vegas does

Mate, I don't ever even think about Vegas or gambling tbqh.  If you choose to obsess over what "Vegas" says, ok, I prefer to do my own thinking, thinking (I should stress) that doesn't resolve around separating fools from their money.

2 minutes ago, bitonti said:

this is how to make that bet: go to the schedule, look at each and every game and find 8 wins. 

Ok.

Week 1: (Sept. ? vs. Bills, 1 pm (WINNABLE 1)

Week 2: (Sept. 16) vs. Browns on Monday Night Football, 8:15 pm (WINNABLE 2)

Week 3: (Sept. 22) at Patriots, 1 pm (LOSS)
Week 4: BYE

Week 5: (Oct. 6) at Eagles, 1 pm (LOSS)

Week 6: (Oct. 13) vs. Cowboys, 4:30 pm (WINNABLE 3)

Week 7: (Oct. 21) vs. Patriots on Monday Night Football, 8:15 pm (WINNABLE 4)

Week 8: (Oct. 27) at Jaguars, 1 pm (WINNABLE 5)

Week 9: (Nov. 3) at Dolphins, 1 pm (WINNABLE 6)

Week 10: (Nov. 10) vs. Giants, 1 pm (WINNABLE 7)

Week 11: (Nov. 17) at Washington, 1 pm (WINNABLE ?

Week 12: (Nov. 24) vs. Raiders, 1 pm (WINNABLE 9)

Week 13: (Dec. 1) at Bengals, 1 pm (WINNABLE 10)

Week 14: (Dec. ? vs. Dolphins, 1 pm (WINNABLE 11)

Week 15: (Dec. 12) at Ravens on Thursday Night Football, 8:15 pm (WINNABLE 12)

Week 16: (Dec. 22) vs. Steelers, 1 pm (LOSS)

Week 17: (Dec. 29) at Bills, 1 pm (WINNABLE 13)

I could 13 winnable games on this schedule.  Winning 8 of them seems pretty reasonable to me.

In before you try and pretend the Redskins, Giants, Raiders, Ravens, Bengals and Cowboys are elite ultra-awesome unbeatable teams, lol).

2 minutes ago, bitonti said:

side note I am not betting big but I am betting alot and most games I can't find a logical reason to bet on this team

I think the problem is your focus on betting.  When all the world starts looking like a Vegas bet, you have a problem.

2 minutes ago, bitonti said:

it's my way to deal with expectations. If i'm not willing to put a dollar on them winning, then I'm not willing to get my hopes up 

"the value of expectations" 

I don't value my enjoyment of the Jets by how much money they make me.  I don't bet, and I certainly don't bet on the Jets.  I find no enjoyment in it, and would never, ever, bet against my Jets no matter the odds/line.  Gambling sucks all the joy out of being a fan IMO, same as Fantasy Football.  

[Warfish]

14 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Every aspect of this team should be a concern. 

I am concerned about special teams because it's important, just like the offensive line is important...yet another area of the team that the Jets like to ignore. Sure, folks say it's important, but actions are more important than words if you will. 

I dont know what you mean by if im worried about Special that must say alot about offense and defense. 

I think that if im worried about Specials it's because no one really knows who will replace the all pro that we cut, and hopefully we dont end up with a situation where we average 20 yards per kick return and a bunch of fair catches during punts reminiscent of the Jeremy Kerley years. 

Every facet, every group, every part of this team should be important and we should expect high levels from every part.

There are examples of good offensive/defense teams that have lost games because of special teams. 

Yes, I can see that you are clearly VERY concerned about kick returning.  One might even say obsessed at this point.

Tell me, who was the All-Pro kick returners for the last 10 Super Bowl teams? 

Surely, given your level of concern, the best kick returner in the NFL was on the Super Bowl winner.....right?

We had an All-Pro, and won what, 4 games?  Guess it didn't help that much after all.

How about we worry about it after the first Pre-season game, when we know who the returner is and how they do? 

That seems pretty reasonable to me.  No reason to get hysterical in June.

 

[Villain The Foe]

4 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Mate, I don't ever even think about Vegas or gambling tbqh.  If you choose to obsess over what "Vegas" says, ok, I prefer to do my own thinking, thinking (I should stress) that doesn't resolve around separating fools from their money.

Ok.

Week 1: (Sept. ? vs. Bills, 1 pm (WINNABLE 1)

Week 2: (Sept. 16) vs. Browns on Monday Night Football, 8:15 pm (WINNABLE 2)

Week 3: (Sept. 22) at Patriots, 1 pm (LOSS)
Week 4: BYE

Week 5: (Oct. 6) at Eagles, 1 pm (LOSS)

Week 6: (Oct. 13) vs. Cowboys, 4:30 pm (WINNABLE 3)

Week 7: (Oct. 21) vs. Patriots on Monday Night Football, 8:15 pm (WINNABLE 4)

Week 8: (Oct. 27) at Jaguars, 1 pm (WINNABLE 5)

Week 9: (Nov. 3) at Dolphins, 1 pm (WINNABLE 6)

Week 10: (Nov. 10) vs. Giants, 1 pm (WINNABLE 7)

Week 11: (Nov. 17) at Washington, 1 pm (WINNABLE ?

Week 12: (Nov. 24) vs. Raiders, 1 pm (WINNABLE 9)

Week 13: (Dec. 1) at Bengals, 1 pm (WINNABLE 10)

Week 14: (Dec. ? vs. Dolphins, 1 pm (WINNABLE 11)

Week 15: (Dec. 12) at Ravens on Thursday Night Football, 8:15 pm (WINNABLE 12)

Week 16: (Dec. 22) vs. Steelers, 1 pm (LOSS)

Week 17: (Dec. 29) at Bills, 1 pm (WINNABLE 13)

I could 13 winnable games on this schedule.  Winning 8 of them seems pretty reasonable to me.

I'd have to say that your 13 winnable games along with winning 8 seems a bit extra, especially when you're not even the least concerned about a replacement for specials, which will most likely not be as good as it was last year. 

Also, why do you even have a "winnable" next to the Patriots? Sure, every game is technically a winnable game for as long as you step on the field and try, but the last time we beat the Patriots was in 2015. They've absolutely dominated the Jets. 

Furthermore, it's confusing to see that winnable next to the Patriots yet see a Loss next to the Steelers, a team that is clearly in turmoil, lost two future HOF offensive weapons, their QB is a year older, JuJu will be a #1 receiver for the first time with a rookie on the opposite side and their defense still needs some work. That's a team that missed the playoffs last year as well. Meanwhile you have winnable against the team that won that division last year in the Ravens who also had the #1 defense in the league. 

 

Ultimately, my point isnt to just criticize your wins and losses, but more wondering what the Jets did since the end of last year to go from a team that was consistently a 4 to 5 win team the past few years to now an 8 win team with a total of 13 winnable games. How did we get so much better? 

[Warfish]

9 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

I'd have to say that your 13 winnable games along with winning 8 seems a bit extra, especially when you're not even the least concerned about a replacement for specials, which will most likely not be as good as it was last year.

We're all entitled to our opinions.  I see 13 winnable games, of which I think we win (or should win) 8 or so.

How many winnable games and wins do you see? 

And how many will be lost due to the crushing loss of our Kick Returner?

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Also, why do you even have a "winnable" next to the Patriots? Sure, every game is technically a winnable game for as long as you step on the field and try, but the last time we beat the Patriots was in 2015. They've absolutely dominated the Jets. 

Gase is 2-4 over the past three years.  I think a split is quite possible this year, if our team plays up to it's talent/roster.

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Furthermore, it's confusing to see that winnable next to the Patriots yet see a Loss next to the Steelers, a team that is clearly in turmoil, lost two future HOF offensive weapons, their QB is a year older, JuJu will be a #1 receiver for the first time with a rookie on the opposite side and their defense still needs some work. That's a team that missed the playoffs last year as well. Meanwhile you have winnable against the team that won that division last year in the Ravens who also had the #1 defense in the league. 

Then if it makes you feel better, put winnable next to the Steelers and mark the Pats as two Losses.  

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Ultimately, my point isnt to just criticize your wins and losses, but more wondering what the Jets did since the end of last year to go from a team that was consistently a 4 to 5 win team the past few years to now an 8 win team with a total of 13 winnable games. How did we get so much better? 

I've already listed what they've done.  They've improved materially at a number of spots across both offense and defense and coaching.

I know, I know.....without that all-pro kick returner, we are literally doomed and can't win.  I get it. 

[bitonti]

23 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I could 13 winnable games on this schedule.  Winning 8 of them seems pretty reasonable to me.

In before you try and pretend the Redskins, Giants, Raiders, Ravens, Bengals and Cowboys are elite ultra-awesome unbeatable teams, lol).

I think the problem is your focus on betting.  When all the world starts looking like a Vegas bet, you have a problem.

I don't value my enjoyment of the Jets by how much money they make me.  I don't bet, and I certainly don't bet on the Jets.  I find no enjoyment in it, and would never, ever, bet against my Jets no matter the odds/line.  Gambling sucks all the joy out of being a fan IMO, same as Fantasy Football.  

the word "winnable" is why I bet

It's accountability... one thing to hope they win and paint your face green it's another to step up to the window and slap down hard earned cash. 

it's a gut check and frankly Warfish, my hopes have been too high on this team for too long 

all of our hopes have been way too high

go to an ATM all of a sudden it becomes real 

put it another way if you aren't playing for money it's not really poker 

****

At Baltimore is a schedule Loss. Assuming Lamar Jackson is healthy, that's a really tough place to play 

vs NYG will be a war. Can't pretend like that's an easy game 

Dallas fans will take over Met Life.

Also the last week of the season at Buffalo it will probably be about 4 degrees below zero 

[Villain The Foe]

14 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Yes, I can see that you are clearly VERY concerned about kick returning. 

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One might even say obsessed at this point.

 

Well, you have been pushing that "obsessed" narrative since the moment we spoke about it.

3 hours ago, Warfish said:

Probably no one.  It simply doesn't worry me, if I were being honest.  I'm far more worried about the FG kicker tbqh.

It's nice to have so little to be worried about that we're obsessive over kick returner instead of QB, RB, TE or WR.

 

47 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I think you're being very concerned over a very tertiary issue, tbqh.

 

It's clear that you take the position of me being very concerned or obsessed given that in your own words you're not the slightest concerned about it. 

It's just word play. I see it. 

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Tell me, who was the All-Pro kick returners for the last 10 Super Bowl teams? 

No. I can tell you who the All pro kick returner was for the Jets last year though. 

Quote

Surely, given your level of concern, the best kick returner in the NFL was on the Super Bowl winner.....right?

Nope. He was on the Jets actually...and we cut him. Ironically though, the best QB wasnt in the superbowl either (Patrick Mahomes)...so this superbowl point you're trying to make is baseless.

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We had an All-Pro, and won what, 4 games?  Guess it didn't help that much after all.

Actually it did. That All Pro kicker was a major piece in winning two of those games. Detroit and the 2nd Buffalo game. So by using your logic it's safe to say that without that All Pro returner we could have been a 2 win team. 

Getting half of your wins from an All pro returner is pretty f'ing big. But I bet you wont like the way I just flipped that.

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How about we worry about it after the first Pre-season game, when we know who the returner is and how they do? 

That seems pretty reasonable to me.  No reason to get hysterical in June.

How about we just have a conversation without all of the extraness, like "Obsession" and "Hysterical". 

Its you the entire time. 

[Sperm Edwards]

31 minutes ago, bitonti said:

The history says you'd lose that wager 

in 2014 the Jets lose to the Pats at home 17-16. Pats go on to win SB XLIX

in 2016 the Jets lose the pats at home 22-17. Pats go on to win SB LI 

 

these days fans are telling themselves losing close is a step forward because of Sam Darnold but spoiler alert it's just more losing 

Losing 39-38 is indicative the team is better than one that loses 45-3

Also you're looking at one game. If we lose 2 of 2 as we have, but both of them are 1-point losses (particularly high scoring losses as it was framed), I'd say I'm right.

It's far more discouraging, and appropriately so, if we're getting blown out of the water.

[#27TheDominator]

2 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Losing 39-38 is indicative the team is better than one that loses 45-3

Also you're looking at one game. If we lose 2 of 2 as we have, but both of them are 1-point losses (particularly high scoring losses as it was framed), I'd say I'm right.

It's far more discouraging, and appropriately so, if we're getting blown out of the water.

The best Jets team in my memory lost 45-3 to the Patriots.  

[Warfish]

10 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Well, you have been pushing that "obsessed" narrative since the moment we spoke about it.

Shoe fits, etc, etc, etc.

You've now posted like a half dozens posts deeply, unremittingly concerned about.....kick return.

As I said, we had one of the best Kick returner in the NFL last year.  We won 4 games.  I think we'll be ok without him. 

If you don't, ok, and you want to say we won't win games because of it, ok, I disagree, but I can respect that.  

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How about we just have a conversation without all of the extraness, like "Obsession" and "Hysterical". 

Naaa, I think I'm all out of desire to talk about kick return at this point.  Be happy to take it up again in September tho.

[Villain The Foe]

9 minutes ago, Warfish said:

We're all entitled to our opinions.  I see 13 winnable games, of which I think we win (or should win) 8 or so.

How many winnable games and wins do you see? 

It's hard to tell right now given that we have a new HC and coaching staff, along with a GM that isnt hired yet. 

I dont know what this team is for me to be putting anything out at the moment. If we still had Bowles and Macc here I would be able to given that there's a track record of these guys and I could pretty much gage off that along with any new additions or subtractions. There's too much turnover for me to put anything out right now. 

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And how many will be lost due to the crushing loss of our Kick Returner?

Well, in my prior response I showed how our All pro returner was a significant contributer in two victories. In a 16 game season....that's pretty significant, even more so when you win only 4 games total. 

 

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Gase is 2-4 over the past three years.  I think a split is quite possible this year, if our team plays up to it's talent/roster.

Gase is 2-4 with an entirely different team and coaching staff. One of the reasons why again, I said that it's hard to tell you games that I can deem "winnable" given that no one knows what this team is right now given that there is too much turnover. 

But with that said, Gase is one "Miami miracle" away from being 1-5. 

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Then if it makes you feel better, put winnable next to the Steelers and mark the Pats as two Losses.  

It wouldnt make me feel better, it would simply be more logical. 

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I've already listed what they've done.  They've improved materially at a number of spots across both offense and defense and coaching.

Enough to double their win amount from 4 to 8 with the possibility of having 13 of those games actually winnable? 

We have to score points to do that, and one of the great ways to score is to establish field position, but you dont care about the kick/punt returner who established that field position because in your eyes, anyone can just get up and do it. 

It seems like specials is more important to your 13 winnables if you really think about it. You seem to just want to put all of this on the 31st ranked QB heading into his 2nd season because we got Bell and the legendary Jamison Crowder. 

Are they going to muster up enough points to double (at minimum) our win total? Will the 21 year old Sam Darnold be able to play like a 28 year old? 

That's alot to put on that kid, especially when Specials is considered irrelevant in your eyes. 

[Peace Frog]

8 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

The best Jets team in my memory lost 45-3 to the Patriots.  

The best Jets team in my recent memory beat the Pack 42-17 and the Colts 41-0 in back to back weeks. 

[Skeptable]

5 hours ago, bitonti said:

materially better than 4-12 doesn't mean 12-4

side note there is something called the sophomore slump when it comes to Sam Darnold. He's still 22. 

Adam Gase looks like a lunatic who escaped from Pilgrim State 

they play the cheatriots twice 

there's tons of reasons to expect disaster this board/fanbase are experts at hiding themselves from these reasons 

With an easier schedule and competent coaching there should be a huge improvement in wins and loses not including the upgrades to the team

There is also something called the Sophomore Leap (See Carson Wentz)

Just because he looks like a psychopath doesn't mean he is not a good coach

Pats are beatable

There is tons of optimism that this board is hiding themselves from

 

[Villain The Foe]

5 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Shoe fits, etc, etc, etc.

I'll get to this in a minute.

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You've now posted like a half dozens posts deeply, unremittingly concerned about.....kick return.

Because we're discussing it. Well, im discussing the importance of it, you're talking about your shoe game. 

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As I said, we had one of the best Kick returner in the NFL last year.  We won 4 games.  I think we'll be ok without him. 

And you may be right. But that doesnt change the fact that in 4 of those victories, specials played a major role in winning half. The problem here is you're more interested in talking about shoes than to simply see that maybe Specials is more important than you'd like to lead. 

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If you don't, ok, and you want to say we won't win games because of it, ok, I disagree, but I can respect that.  

Naaa, I think I'm all out of desire to talk about kick return at this point.  Be happy to take it up again in September tho.

That's cool. I can respect your lack of desire to continue on with this conversation. I just wanted to state my position that the specials group is just as important as any other group. Attempting to turn that into some sort of obsession and shoes wasnt the right route. Saying that you just dont want to talk about it is a better route. 

I know you're probably responding to other other discussion, but I'll leave it here in order to respect the fact that you dont want to talk about it. 

[bitonti]

10 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

The best Jets team in my recent memory beat the Pack 42-17 and the Colts 41-0 in back to back weeks. 

the grass tray champions 

 

[Skeptable]

8 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

It seems like specials is more important to your 13 winnables if you really think about it. You seem to just want to put all of this on the 31st ranked QB heading into his 2nd season because we got Bell and the legendary Jamison Crowder. 

31st ranked??? He was also  number #1 at PFF for the last 4 weeks. Man people like to skew stats. He was also out for 4 games... So naturally his traditional stats will be near the bottom of the league.

They improved the OL just by getting rid of Carpenter and Long, ... People here underestimate how good Bell is and how much he contributes to making OLines look good... and When your talking about Kearse VS Crowder... yes it is an upgrade... 

[UntouchableCrew]

If you read the various beat writers it seems like CB is the biggest weakness on this team, which shouldn't really be a surprise looking at the depth chart. Amazing we gave up a 5th for that bum Robinson and he couldn't even make it to camp.

[Jetster]

6 hours ago, Warfish said:

Our offense should be materially better.

2nd year for Darnold.

Didn't lose anyone worth mentioning (other than the All-Pro Kicker).

Bell is a massive upgrade.

Crowder is a huge weapon underneath.

O-Line may not be what I want, but HAS been improved.

And Gase is supposed to be a QB/Offensive genius.

There is every reason to have high expectations for the performance of this offense this year.  

Warfish?.......is that you? lol, yea baby, its ok, Jets are gonna rock, its gonna be a fun year!

[Warfish]

43 minutes ago, bitonti said:

the word "winnable" is why I bet

It's accountability... one thing to hope they win and paint your face green it's another to step up to the window and slap down hard earned cash. 

Variation #2,981 of the "I'm a better/more dedicated fan" theorum?

I feel like I've been dragged into two debates I just don't feel like having, gambling and the vital nature of an all-pro kick returner.

If you think we suck and only gamblers are real fans, ok.  If Villians thinks we'll suck without an all-pro kick returner, ok.

I think we improved quite a bit on both offense and defense, and should be much better, in the 7-9 win area.  I don't like Gase much, but he's got to be better than what we had, and I like Williams alot.  I see alot of games we could win against alot of other similarly mediocre teams that don't scare me as a fan.  Will we win them all?  Obviously not if I see 13 winnable and think we'll win 7-9.  If you prefer to think we're a 4 win team again, ok, agree to disagree.

[Villain The Foe]

14 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

31st ranked??? He was also  number #1 at PFF for the last 4 weeks. Man people like to skew stats. He was also out for 4 games... So naturally his traditional stats will be near the bottom of the league.

So does that #1 ranking by PFF in December make Darnold the #1 QB in the league? 

Right after that december performance PFF ranked Darnold 26th overall in January (moving up from 31...my apologizes for old grading). 

So what is it, is he #1 or #26? 

Im not trying to skew stats. But even at 26, that's pretty solid for a 21 year old, but it sounds like you guys are expecting him to go from 26th to 6th as a 22 year old. 

Also, his grading wasnt about stats, but performance. 

I think that the Sam Darnold that will be a dominating force in this league we will not see for another 2 to 3 seasons. What we need to make sure of is that Darnold doesnt have a sophomore slump...something that he struggled with at USC. 

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They improved the OL just by getting rid of Carpenter and Long, ... People here underestimate how good Bell is and how much he contributes to making OLines look good... and When your talking about Kearse VS Crowder... yes it is an upgrade... 

No one is underestimating how good Bell is. He's certainly better than anything we've had since Curtis left. But I think Jets fans is overestimating him to an extent. This is the same Bell that missed an entire season and James Conner stepped in and that running game for the most part didnt miss a beat. Probably because the Steelers ended the season with the #1 offensive line based on PFF along with having threats on the outside in AB and JuJu. 

Bell doesnt have that in NY. 

So sure, Crowder and Bell are upgrades, but that doesnt mean that Sam is Roethilsberger and Crowder is AB or JuJu and this Jets oline is the Steelers Oline. 

 

[Villain The Foe]

7 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Variation #2,981 of the "I'm a better/more dedicated fan" theorum?

I feel like I've been dragged into two debates I just don't feel like having, gambling and the vital nature of an all-pro kick returner.

If you think we suck and only gamblers are real fans, ok.  If Villians thinks we'll suck without an all-pro kick returner, ok.

I think we improved quite a bit on both offense and defense, and should be much better, in the 7-9 win area.  I don't like Gase much, but he's got to be better than what we had, and I like Williams alot.  I see alot of games we could win.  Will we win them all, obviously not if I see 13 winnable and think we'll win 7-9.  

There goes that hysterical position. We sucked with him on the team already. lol. You yourself made sure to make that point.

Lets follow your lead though, and lets not talk about it because it's obvious that points are getting completely misconstrued. 

[#27TheDominator]

24 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

The best Jets team in my recent memory beat the Pack 42-17 and the Colts 41-0 in back to back weeks. 

Pennington?  That's a funny one. 

[Warfish]

5 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

There goes that hysterical position. 

Are we better on-paper (i.e. talent) on Offense now vs. 2018?

Are we better on-paper (i.e. talent) on Defense now vs. 2018?

Are we better on-paper in Coaching (Head Coach and D-Co) now vs. 2018?

If your answer to any of the above is "no", feel free to explain.

Note:  I'm not asking you about Special Teams nor is any reference to special teams relevant to the questions I've directly asked you.

[Sperm Edwards]

51 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

The best Jets team in my memory lost 45-3 to the Patriots.  

But not twice in the same season  

They had a QB who was either ok or a disaster; that wasn't fully indicative of the rest of the team. The 2010 team scored under 10 points 4x that year. They were 1-3 when the D surrendered 10 points or less; they were an OT coin toss plus another OT fumble away from finishing 9-7 (not to mention a hilarious Caldwell brain fart away from going 1 & done in the playoffs). They were also perhaps a good QB away from finishing with 13-14 wins, and while that game you reference may still have been a loss, it shouldn't have been a 45-3 embarrassment. 

But more broadly, it was in the context of what if they only finished in the 7-9/8-8 range. If they were a .500 team but were really close to winning a few more, it's more encouraging than if they finish with 7 or 8 wins and got blown out of the water by NE twice and a couple more games against others as well. 

[Peace Frog]

12 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Pennington?  That's a funny one. 

1998 and maybe 2010?

Who else since the 1980s?

[Skeptable]

9 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

No one is underestimating how good Bell is. He's certainly better than anything we've had since Curtis left. But I think Jets fans is overestimating him to an extent. This is the same Bell that missed an entire season and James Conner stepped in and that running game for the most part didnt miss a beat. Probably because the Steelers ended the season with the #1 offensive line based on PFF along with having threats on the outside in AB and JuJu. 

James Conner was on track to be a heisman trophy contender and a top tier draft pick... He was derailed by an MCL injury and Cancer... Its not like this guy was a nobody that it seems people are doing around here... Sure they didn't seem to miss a beat but with a steal of a draft pick that is now fully healthy and learned behind a RB that has been top 3 in league every year he played.

Juju benefited more from AB then Bell did. Bell and Conner helped make that OL best in the league.

Steelers have under-preformed since Tomlin took over... I am not saying Sam is Ben... Its stupid to even try to make those comparisons... 

As for the Sophomore slump... that is such a BS statement... there is no facts behind that... Just look at Goff or Wentz for two easy examples that disprove the sophomore slump idea.

 

[Villain The Foe]

Just now, Warfish said:

Are we better on-paper (i.e. talent) on Offense now vs. 2018?

Are we better on-paper (i.e. talent) on Defense now vs. 2018?

Are we better on-paper in Coahcing (Head Coach and D-Co) now vs. 2018?

Are we better on paper (i.e. talent) on special teams now vs 2018? 

You're obsessed with the notion that special teams is somehow the offense and defense when it's its own group. 

To answer your questions though. 

(offense) Yes. We have a legit weapon on offense for the first time in years. 

(Defense) No. We paid Mosely and insane amount of money, we dont have a pass rush unless Polite actually hits...but he's a rookie, and our cornerback group has to be among the worst in the NFL. So if we cant rush the passer without blitzing Adams and our Corners are among the leagues worst...I cant sit here and honestly say that on a talent level that this Jets defense is any better than it was last year. 

(Coaching) I dont know. It's not like Gase was lighting it up out in Miami. That dude didnt even have a good relationship with his players. At the end of the day there is nothing that is on Gase resume that even qualified him to be the Jets head coach. Us Jets fans are simply accepting it because he's the coach and there's nothing that we can do about it so of course the optimism birth from initial apathy will show its head eventually. 

95% of us hated the fact that Gase would even be considered. Now that he's the coach we're doing the exact same thing the Bills fans did with Rex Ryan. And Miami fans are saying the same thing about the hire that Jets fans said about the Rex hire in Buffalo. 

(Specials) You missed this one, but there are 3 parts to football. Offense, defense, special teams. And the answer to that is No. We've downgraded because we cut an All Pro player and we will be replacing him with a guy who we dont know. Also, we had a pro bowl kicker who also isnt returning. We've completely and totally downgraded (on paper) on special teams. 

[Villain The Foe]

Just now, Skeptable said:

James Conner was on track to be a heisman trophy contender and a top tier draft pick... He was derailed by an MCL injury and Cancer... Its not like this guy was a nobody that it seems people are doing around here...

Being an heisman contender doesnt make you Leveon Bell. With that said, even Bell wasnt an outright heisman contender. In the conversation? Sure, but nothing serious. Then he gets to the league and becomes one of the best in the league. 

The bottomline is this, Bell was easily replaced by the Steelers because of the pieces that they had to help that RB position, which Conner took full advantage of. That is something that the Jets do not have. 

Quote

Sure they didn't seem to miss a beat but with a steal of a draft pick that is now fully healthy and learned behind a RB that has been top 3 in league every year he played.

Juju benefited more from AB then Bell did. Bell and Conner helped make that OL best in the league.

You're changing direction of the point. The point is that all of this above...isnt on the Jets. The Jets dont have JuJu, AB or the best Oline in the league. In otherwords, there will be more on Bell then there ever was while in Pitt. That's the point that im making. 

Quote

Steelers have under-preformed since Tomlin took over... I am not saying Sam is Ben... Its stupid to even try to make those comparisons... 

As for the Sophomore slump... that is such a BS statement... there is no facts behind that... Just look at Goff or Wentz for two easy examples that disprove the sophomore slump idea.

Steelers under performance would be an absolute great season for the Jets, which proves my point. The Steelers underperforming is them not winning a superbowl with all that talent on offense. The Jets cant even win 5 games consistently. 

Like I said, this is a completely different team and Bell is being overestimated. Im not saying that he isnt the skillful playmaker that he is, what im saying is that there were 3 all-pro type playermakers on that Steelers offense and a futuer HOF QB throwing the ball. 

 

[slats]

1 hour ago, bitonti said:

It's accountability... one thing to hope they win and paint your face green it's another to step up to the window and slap down hard earned cash. 

it's a gut check and frankly Warfish, my hopes have been too high on this team for too long 

all of our hopes have been way too high

go to an ATM all of a sudden it becomes real 

put it another way if you aren't playing for money it's not really poker

I'm not playing, I'm watching on TV. 

I've got a coworker who can't watch a sporting event without adding that betting interest. I laugh at him and simultaneously worry about his family. 

[isired]

(Defense) No.

???

We paid Mosely and insane amount of money

How much we paid him is irrelevant to whether we improved on the field. Is he a better LB on paper than what we had/would have had? Undoubtedly the answer is YES. You should change your answer here.

we dont have a pass rush unless Polite actually hits...but he's a rookie, and our cornerback group has to be among the worst in the NFL. So if we cant rush the passer without blitzing Adams

Did we have a pass rush in 2018 that is missing this year? Even an attempt at adding a pass rush makes us better on paper than last year. You should definitely change your answer here.

and our Corners are among the leagues worst...

I can't say we're better at corner, so that's one area. Hoping we can still address that.

I cant sit here and honestly say that on a talent level that this Jets defense is any better than it was last year.

And yet, you kind of did.

[Skeptable]

5 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Steelers under performance would be an absolute great season for the Jets, which proves my point. The Steelers underperforming is them not winning a superbowl with all that talent on offense. The Jets cant even win 5 games consistently. 

Like I said, this is a completely different team and Bell is being overestimated. Im not saying that he isnt the skillful playmaker that he is, what im saying is that there were 3 all-pro type playermakers on that Steelers offense and a futuer HOF QB throwing the ball. 

My point is talent doesn't necessarily win you games ... What HOF RB did the eagles have? What All-star WR did they have to win their superbowl? hmmm?? Talent is a piece... This team is more talented then they were with a QB in his 2nd year that can easily make a jump like Wentz or Goff did and with a Defense that was coached wrong for years that should improve from Williams Calling plays and Mosley QBing the D.... You are underrating the vast differences in this team from last year.

Bell is a playmaker that they didn't have last year... Mosley is a QB of the D which they didn't have last year... these two moves alone are worth way more then you are giving credit for.

[bitonti]

42 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Variation #2,981 of the "I'm a better/more dedicated fan" theorum? 

it's not about who is more of a fan... it's about having expectations in line with reality... like when I ask people to charity bet over some stupid outcome 

if there's nothing but pride at stake it's easy to reset the expectations at any time... a.k.a. move the goalposts 

note you go on to predict 7-9 which is a no fun "push" at most books. i could probably find 7.5 somewhere and bet the under.

but that's reality a 4 win team usually doesn't become a 10 win team overnight. 

[Skeptable]

20 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Are we better on paper (i.e. talent) on special teams now vs 2018? 

You're obsessed with the notion that special teams is somehow the offense and defense when it's its own group. 

To answer your questions though. 

(offense) Yes. We have a legit weapon on offense for the first time in years. 

(Defense) No. We paid Mosely and insane amount of money, we dont have a pass rush unless Polite actually hits...but he's a rookie, and our cornerback group has to be among the worst in the NFL. So if we cant rush the passer without blitzing Adams and our Corners are among the leagues worst...I cant sit here and honestly say that on a talent level that this Jets defense is any better than it was last year. 

(Coaching) I dont know. It's not like Gase was lighting it up out in Miami. That dude didnt even have a good relationship with his players. At the end of the day there is nothing that is on Gase resume that even qualified him to be the Jets head coach. Us Jets fans are simply accepting it because he's the coach and there's nothing that we can do about it so of course the optimism birth from initial apathy will show its head eventually. 

95% of us hated the fact that Gase would even be considered. Now that he's the coach we're doing the exact same thing the Bills fans did with Rex Ryan. And Miami fans are saying the same thing about the hire that Jets fans said about the Rex hire in Buffalo. 

(Specials) You missed this one, but there are 3 parts to football. Offense, defense, special teams. And the answer to that is No. We've downgraded because we cut an All Pro player and we will be replacing him with a guy who we dont know. Also, we had a pro bowl kicker who also isnt returning. We've completely and totally downgraded (on paper) on special teams. 

Special teams coach is the exact same they have had for years... He made those cast-offs all-stars I think you are completely overrating those 2 players.

Def definitely improved with the best Interior Lineman graded in the last 6 years coming out of the draft... Certainly better then McLendon... Mosley is a massive upgrade to Lee who had to have the play calling taken away from him because he was so bad... 2 massive upgrades... Everything else didn't really change. Williams play calling >>>>> Kacey Rodgers

 

Off is definitely better with Osmele, Crowder, and Bell... Gase Play Calling >>>>>> Bates (Checked out on a Mountain in the Himalayas)

[nyjunc]

3 minutes ago, bitonti said:

it's not about who is more of a fan... it's about having expectations in line with reality... like when I ask people to charity bet over some stupid outcome 

if there's nothing but pride at stake it's easy to reset the expectations at any time... a.k.a. move the goalposts 

note you go on to predict 7-9 which is a no fun "push" at most books. i could probably find 7.5 somewhere and bet the under.

but that's reality a 4 win team usually doesn't become a 10 win team overnight. 

Actually it happens almost annually where a bad team (5 or less wins) becomes good and wins 10 or more.  Last year Indy went from 4 to 10(yes, I understand they had different circumstances with the health of luck), Chicago from 5 to 12, Houston 4 to 11.

Does that mean it will happen to us? Of course not but it happens in this league all the time.

[bitonti]

12 minutes ago, slats said:

 I laugh at him and simultaneously worry about his family. 

If the dude is playing table games and slots then worry. 

Predicting the future is one my interests. Not "betting" per se.  There''s some excitement in looking ahead. 

Draft daddy started as a website to make mock drafts i.e. predicting the future

worked in financial industry for a decade, the stock market is literally everyone making bets... to predict the future. Buy a share of Netflix congrats you are trying to predict the future. 

one summer was obsessed with those superforcaster tourney's in world events, trying to... predict the future  

reading... huge sci fi fan (love the Expanse, near future stuff) and even trying to write some on my own... predicting the future

hopefully I'm a meteorology degree away from being Nostradamus