The Baker Mayfield and His Mouth Thread

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, kdels62 said:

Yeah but in this case he’s not wrong. Manning will get in and he will be the worst player to ever be inducted into the hall of fame.

I don't think that's junc's argument though.  I think he not only thinks he shouldn't be a HOFer, he thinks he was a terrible QB.  Even when junc is kind of right, he's still wrong. 

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, Matt39 said:

HOF. Eli never missing a game will help his odds.

What about that time he got benched for the guy who can't tell time?

[NoBowles]

6 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

He didn't deserve either but even with them he will have a very hard time getting in.  They give him a chance but he really didn't even belong in the discussion.  I hope the voters don't just look at meaningless compiled numbers.

He absolutely is getting in, they will absolutely look at the numbers and he will get in. I agree he deserved neither, but he got them, and the majority of voters are not going to put the time in that you hope they will to challenge the numbers, they will accept them and vote him in. Its not even remotely possible he doesnt get in

 

[Klecko73isGod]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

What about that time he got benched for the guy who can't tell time?

Can you put a guy who got benched for Geno Smith in the Hall of Fame?

Doesn't that place have rules?

[kdels62]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I don't think that's junc's argument though.  I think he not only thinks he shouldn't be a HOFer, he thinks he was a terrible QB.  Even when junc is kind of right, he's still wrong. 

Eli was a mediocre QB his whole career except maybe 2 years where he was maybe top 10. He shouldn’t be a HOFer except he will be because the way we evaluate is flawed. 

I don’t see where Junc says Eli sucks but he’s right in that there’s no argument that Eli is not as good as Rivers or his contemporaries that will be in the Hall of Fame.

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, kdels62 said:

Eli was a mediocre QB his whole career except maybe 2 years where he was maybe top 10. He shouldn’t be a HOFer except he will be because the way we evaluate is flawed. 

I don’t see where Junc says Eli sucks but he’s right in that there’s no argument that Eli is not as good as Rivers or his contemporaries that will be in the Hall of Fame. 

Except I don't think anyone is arguing that Eli was better than Phillip Rivers.

[Matt39]

9 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

What about that time he got benched for the guy who can't tell time?

Mcadoo wasnt exactly Lombardi.

[NoBowles]

9 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I don't think that's junc's argument though.  I think he not only thinks he shouldn't be a HOFer, he thinks he was a terrible QB.  Even when junc is kind of right, he's still wrong. 

Yeah, I think Eli is terribly overrated, and has had one of the more lucky careers of all time in terms of his numbers and his SB wins/MVP's, but you can't say he's a terrible QB, or even a bad one. He was a decent QB who did what he had to do, and no better. If you look at his years between Plaxico and ODBJ, they were not good at all. He was not the QB who could elevate a mediocre team, and needed a great team and great defense around him to win, but its also not fair to say he was bad.

[NoBowles]

2 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Mcadoo wasnt exactly Lombardi.

[Jetsfan80]

6 minutes ago, NoBowles said:

Yeah, I think Eli is terribly overrated, and has had one of the more lucky careers of all time in terms of his numbers and his SB wins/MVP's, but you can't say he's a terrible QB, or even a bad one. He was a decent QB who did what he had to do, and no better. If you look at his years between Plaxico and ODBJ, they were not good at all. He was not the QB who could elevate a mediocre team, and needed a great team and great defense around him to win, but its also not fair to say he was bad. 

 

I'd say he elevated his team's play for those 2 Super Bowl runs.  Beating the Patriots in a Super Bowl is not easy.  Doing it 2x is almost impossible.  Doing it 2x with one of them coming against an 18-0 Patriots team makes him a hero. 

Even if he sucked for most of the rest of his career, he has that.  He's basically Joe Flacco except he had 2 magical postseason runs instead of 1.

Eli's playoff numbers:

• 8-4 record
• 18/9 TD:INT ratio
• 2 Super Bowls in 6 appearances
• 2011 run:  9 TD, 1 INT, 103.3 QB Rating
• 2007 run:  6 TD, 1 INT, 95.7 QB Rating

[kdels62]

6 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Except I don't think anyone is arguing that Eli was better than Phillip Rivers.

There’s a good debate to be had about whether or not, Rivers (consistently a top QB) is more deserving of HOF consideration than Eli (mostly average but lucky). I just don’t think this message board is the place for it right now, everyone seems wound up and stir crazy.

Also Mayfield 

[nyjunc]

7 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Longevity will always be part of the criteria. 

Jim Marshall played forever(282 games), he made 4 all pro teams (4 more than Eli) and he's not in.

Clay Matthews 278, made 3 all pro teams (3 more than Eli) and he's not in.

 

Lomas Brown 263, made 7 all pro teams(7 more than Eli) and he's not in.

Irving Fryar 255, made 2 all pro teams (2 more than Eli) and he's not in.

Earl Morrall played 255, 2 time 1st team all pro(2 more than Eli), won a LEAGUE MVP(1 more than Eli) and he's not in.

Bill Romanowski played 243, made 1 all pro team (1 more than Eli) and he's not in.

 

I can go on and on.  Longevity is great and his durability is his best quality but give me a GREAT QB like Kurt Warner who barely played but was great when he did over a guy who was never great and just played a long time compiling better overall numbers.

Let's look at Warner vs. Eli (and ignore the Giants were 5-4 and in the playoff race when Eli replaced him going 1-6 to end that season):

Warner(116 starts compared to 230 for Eli, 6 seasons with 11 or more starts for Kurt vs 14 for Eli)

2 time 1st team all pro (Eli zero)

2 time official league MVP(also added a third unofficial) while Eli has never even received a single league MVP vote.

9 time player of the week, Eli 4 times

2 time player of the month, Eli 1

3 top 5 seasons in completions (50%), Eli 1(.07%)

3 top 5 in yards (50%), Eli 4(29%)

3 top 5 in TDs (50%), Eli 3(21%)

Led league in completions one season, zero for Eli.

Led league in comp % 3 times, zero for Eli

Led league in TDs twice, Eli zero

Led league in yards once, Eli zero

Led league in passer rating twice, Eli zero

 

Eli isn't half the QB Warner was but now let's look at career compiled numbers:

Yards:

Eli 55,981

Kurt 32,344

TDs:

Eli 360

Kurt 208

 

People that don't watch these guys play would think Eli was better. Eli is a compiler, Kurt was true greatness

 

[nyjunc]

4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

I'd say he elevated his team's play for those 2 Super Bowl runs.  Beating the Patriots in a Super Bowl is not easy.  Doing it 2x is almost impossible.  Doing it 2x with one of them coming against an 18-0 Patriots team makes him a hero. 

Even if he sucked for most of the rest of his career, he has that.  He's basically Joe Flacco except he had 2 magical postseason runs instead of 1.

Yep, he elevated his teams play by having his D hold Tom Brady and that offense to 14 & 17 points while Eli led his Os to 17 & 19 to win.

Flacco's magical run was led by him and the offense while Eli's 2 runs were led by his D.  They won a game in the playoffs on the road when the opponent scored 35, that won a SB when the opponent scored 31.  Eli has never won a playoff game when the opponent has scored more than 20 points.

[Matt39]

Just now, kdels62 said:

There’s a good debate to be had about whether or not, Rivers (consistently a top QB) is more deserving of HOF consideration than Eli (mostly average but lucky). I just don’t think this message board is the place for it right now, everyone seems wound up and stir crazy.

Also Mayfield 

Rivers obviously has the better composite numbers, but for whatever reason always took a dump in the playoffs. The game on the torn ACL will give him street cred though. Eli gets in on the starts streak and Super Bowls. QB's who play as long as they have will always get consideration. 

[Jet Nut]

19 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

All you had to say was that you have nothing to counter and move along. 

All I had to do?

You mean starting that he's too 10 in every QB start that counts.  Was the SB MVP twice.  Durable as can be.  Good teammate.  Hes not even done

Three times I've said it.  There times you soon to a different argument. 

Consistently wrong and too eager to just go on and on and on.

[Matt39]

1 minute ago, nyjunc said:

Jim Marshall played forever(282 games), he made 4 all pro teams (4 more than Eli) and he's not in.

Clay Matthews 278, made 3 all pro teams (3 more than Eli) and he's not in.

 

Lomas Brown 263, made 7 all pro teams(7 more than Eli) and he's not in.

Irving Fryar 255, made 2 all pro teams (2 more than Eli) and he's not in.

Earl Morrall played 255, 2 time 1st team all pro(2 more than Eli), won a LEAGUE MVP(1 more than Eli) and he's not in.

Bill Romanowski played 243, made 1 all pro team (1 more than Eli) and he's not in.

 

I can go on and on.  Longevity is great and his durability is his best quality but give me a GREAT QB like Kurt Warner who barely played but was great when he did over a guy who was never great and just played a long time compiling better overall numbers.

Let's look at Warner vs. Eli (and ignore the Giants were 5-4 and in the playoff race when Eli replaced him going 1-6 to end that season):

Warner(116 starts compared to 230 for Eli, 6 seasons with 11 or more starts for Kurt vs 14 for Eli)

2 time 1st team all pro (Eli zero)

2 time official league MVP(also added a third unofficial) while Eli has never even received a single league MVP vote.

9 time player of the week, Eli 4 times

2 time player of the month, Eli 1

3 top 5 seasons in completions (50%), Eli 1(.07%)

3 top 5 in yards (50%), Eli 4(29%)

3 top 5 in TDs (50%), Eli 3(21%)

Led league in completions one season, zero for Eli.

Led league in comp % 3 times, zero for Eli

Led league in TDs twice, Eli zero

Led league in yards once, Eli zero

Led league in passer rating twice, Eli zero

 

Eli isn't half the QB Warner was but now let's look at career compiled numbers:

Yards:

Eli 55,981

Kurt 32,344

TDs:

Eli 360

Kurt 208

 

People that don't watch these guys play would think Eli was better. Eli is a compiler, Kurt was true greatness

 

Kurt Warner is in the HOF though.

[kdels62]

7 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

I'd say he elevated his team's play for those 2 Super Bowl runs.  Beating the Patriots in a Super Bowl is not easy.  Doing it 2x makes him a hero. 

Even if he sucked for most of the rest of his career, he has that.  He's basically Joe Flacco except he had 2 magical postseason runs instead of 1.

What’s crazy is that if the Giants weren’t some weird cult of AM radio listeners the Giants would have moved on from Eli like the Ravens moved on from Flacco. 

Also Flacco and Eli are basically the same player except, Flacco is a better Playoff QB.

Also you’re agreeing with Jet Nut... think about that.

[nyjunc]

9 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Mcadoo wasnt exactly Lombardi.

The Giants had missed the playoffs 4 straight years and 6 of 7.  McAdoo led NYG to the playoffs his only full season.  McAdoo wasn't the problem, the QB was.

8 minutes ago, NoBowles said:

Yeah, I think Eli is terribly overrated, and has had one of the more lucky careers of all time in terms of his numbers and his SB wins/MVP's, but you can't say he's a terrible QB, or even a bad one. He was a decent QB who did what he had to do, and no better. If you look at his years between Plaxico and ODBJ, they were not good at all. He was not the QB who could elevate a mediocre team, and needed a great team and great defense around him to win, but its also not fair to say he was bad.

Eli was a solid starter, I never said he was bad.  Solid career, should go into Giants Hall of Fame not the pro football HOF.

[Jetsfan80]

10 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

There’s a good debate to be had about whether or not, Rivers (consistently a top QB) is more deserving of HOF consideration than Eli (mostly average but lucky). I just don’t think this message board is the place for it right now, everyone seems wound up and stir crazy.

Also Mayfield  

Rivers belongs in the Hall for sure.  374 TD's to just 178 INT's.  118-90 career record, including 3 seasons with 12+ wins (his latest at the age of 37).  8th all-time in passing yardage, with the 7 ahead of him either in the HOF or headed there (Brees, Peyton, Favre, Brady, Marino, Roethlisberger, Eli).  6th all-time in TD's, and he's only 46 away from tying Marino for 5th. 

Rivers is in. 

[Matt39]

1 minute ago, nyjunc said:

The Giants had missed the playoffs 4 straight years and 6 of 7.  McAdoo led NYG to the playoffs his only full season.  McAdoo wasn't the problem, the QB was.

Eli was a solid starter, I never said he was bad.  Solid career, should go into Giants Hall of Fame not the pro football HOF.

Warren Moon is in the HOF. The toothpaste is out of the tube already. Eli is getting in.

[nyjunc]

4 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Rivers obviously has the better composite numbers, but for whatever reason always took a dump in the playoffs. The game on the torn ACL will give him street cred though. Eli gets in on the starts streak and Super Bowls. QB's who play as long as they have will always get consideration. 

If Rivers D never allowed more than 20(in playoff wins) he'd have SBs too.  It wasn't like Eli was leading his Os to 40 points, he had the one explosion in 2011 div Rd at GB where they scored 38.  Other than that he never even led them to 30.

[kdels62]

5 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Rivers obviously has the better composite numbers, but for whatever reason always took a dump in the playoffs. The game on the torn ACL will give him street cred though. Eli gets in on the starts streak and Super Bowls. QB's who play as long as they have will always get consideration. 

You have to look at the coaching here. I can’t name any of River’s coaches besides Anthony Lynn. Manning was coached by a HOFer. 

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

Also you’re agreeing with Jet Nut... think about that.

Regarding what?  I don't read his posts. 

[Matt39]

Just now, nyjunc said:

If Rivers D never allowed more than 20(in playoff wins) he'd have SBs too.  It wasn't like Eli was leading his Os to 40 points, he had the one explosion in 2011 div Rd at GB where they scored 38.  Other than that he never even led them to 30.

I dont care how many points he was leading his offense to. He went on two runs where he won 3 playoff games and beat the Patriots. 

[nyjunc]

25 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I don't think that's junc's argument though.  I think he not only thinks he shouldn't be a HOFer, he thinks he was a terrible QB.  Even when junc is kind of right, he's still wrong. 

You never get anything right about me. At no point have I said he sucked for his career just like I never called mark Sanchez great but when you have nothing you make things up.

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, Matt39 said:

I dont care how many points he was leading his offense to. He went on two runs where he won 3 playoff games and beat the Patriots.  

4 playoff games.  Both times they were the Wild Card and had to win all 4 on the road/neutral. 

Considering that Junc still talks about Mark Sanchez winning 4 road playoff games, you would think he'd be putting Eli on a pedestal for winning 6 on the road plus 2 on a neutral field. 

[nyjunc]

Just now, Matt39 said:

I dont care how many points he was leading his offense to. He went on two runs where he won 3 playoff games and beat the Patriots. 

4 playoff games, both great runs but both led by great D and efficient O.  He was not the reason for either run but he did contribute.  He never did what Flacco did in 2012.

[nyjunc]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

4 playoff games.  Both times they were the Wild Card and had to win all 4 on the road/neutral. 

In 2011 they hosted Atlanta in the WC round where his D pitched a shutout. The other 5 NFC playoff games were on the road.

[nyjunc]

4 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Warren Moon is in the HOF. The toothpaste is out of the tube already. Eli is getting in.

Moon made 3 all pro teams (3 more than Eli)

Was offensive player of the year once (1 more than Eli)

Led in completions 3 times (3 more than Eli)

Led in yards 2 times (2 more than Eli)

Led in TDs once (1 more than Eli)

Won playoff games in 3 postseasons (Eli 2)

Lost playoff games leading O to 23, 24, 31- in 2 conf title games and 2 SBs the most points Eli led an O to in regulation was 20.

[More Cowbell]

3 hours ago, nyjunc said:

You are insane then.  Put Marino on those Giants teams and they are a dynasty.  They wouldn't have been sneaking into the playoffs as a WC or 9-7 weak division winner.

Dan Marino played on most weak teams and was 147-93 as a starter, Eli is 116-114. Marino once led his O to 34 points in a playoff game and lost.  

Eli over Dan Marino ????

 

 

Marino is exactly what you are criticizing  Eli for. A QB that never got it done in the post season. Oh wait, Eli won two SB's so check that. 

[Joe W. Namath]

52 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Moon made 3 all pro teams (3 more than Eli)

Was offensive player of the year once (1 more than Eli)

Led in completions 3 times (3 more than Eli)

Led in yards 2 times (2 more than Eli)

Led in TDs once (1 more than Eli)

Won playoff games in 3 postseasons (Eli 2)

Lost playoff games leading O to 23, 24, 31- in 2 conf title games and 2 SBs the most points Eli led an O to in regulation was 20.

I can say this.  As a fan, I was terrified of warren moon carving us up.  I never, ever felt that way about facing Eli.  That speaks volumes to me.

[nyjunc]

16 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Marino is exactly what you are criticizing  Eli for. A QB that never got it done in the post season. Oh wait, Eli won two SB's so check that. 

This discussion just gets more absurd.  Imagine someone seriously saying they'd rather have Eli than Dan Marino ??

15 minutes ago, Joe W. Namath said:

I can say this.  As a fan, I was terrified of warren moon carving us up.  I never, ever felt that way about facing Eli.  That speaks volumes to me.

Absolutely, Moon always scared me just like Marino did.  Eli scares no one. He basically handed is that 2015 win with his stupidity.  In 2011 when they beat us he was 9-27 for 255 yards with 99 coming on one play which was all Victor Cruz.  

Eli definitely could get hot, he had some great games and great moments but the true greats are great on a consistent basis. Eli has never been consistently great.  One week he could look like a HOFer but the next he could look like a rookie.

[#27TheDominator]

Just now, nyjunc said:

This discussion just gets more absurd.  Imagine someone seriously saying they'd rather have Eli than Dan Marino ??

Absolutely, Moon always scared me just like Marino did.  Eli scares no one. He basically handed is that 2015 win with his stupidity.  In 2011 when they beat us he was 9-27 for 255 yards with 99 coming on one play which was all Victor Cruz.  

Eli definitely could get hot, he had some great games and great moments but the true greats are great on a consistent basis. Eli has never been consistently great.  One week he could look like a HOFer but the next he could look like a rookie.

Plus, he is doofy looking. 

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, kdels62 said:

What’s crazy is that if the Giants weren’t some weird cult of AM radio listeners the Giants would have moved on from Eli like the Ravens moved on from Flacco. 

Also Flacco and Eli are basically the same player except, Flacco is a better Playoff QB.

Also you’re agreeing with Jet Nut... think about that.

Think about this then.

As always, I'm right and you're the only other person agreeing with nyjunc. 

Think about that.  You and a troll

 

[JustInFudge]

1 hour ago, Matt39 said:

HOF. Eli never missing a game will help his odds.

Gotcha.  I'm just trying to figure out why this is a knock on a player.  junc is the only person I've seen use "compiler" as a reason to knock down a highly productive player.  It's bizarre.  Would be better if they didnt produce?