dbatesman Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 47 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said: Really, if all you are going to do is be snarky, I don't have time for you. I never purported my experience being any other than my own. I do have relational experience with probably 40 other families (give or take) that have similar experiences and feelings. And yes, we do talk about such things. Great! That doesn’t change my opinion one bit. 46 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said: Exactly this. But don't tell @dbatesman that these athletes are not being used and tortured. So we’re not even doing scare quotes anymore, huh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 Just now, peebag said: Just a side note: I often wonder why the big time athletic schools just don't tell the NCAA to go f' themselves and start their own athletic system. They get to keep their own money. It has been rumored before. And, it makes a lot of sense. There is no legal binding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 Just now, dbatesman said: Great! That doesn’t change my opinion one bit. That settles it then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 47 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said: I never purported my experience being any other than my own. I do have relational experience with probably 40 other families (give or take) that have similar experiences and feelings. And yes, we do talk about such things. When my son played D3 football it was a bit of an eye opener. His high school principal would say such and such school called and they want to come in and meet with you. There were a few schools that the academic people said, "Don't apply, you aren't getting in there". Sure as hell he got into every one of them (all D3). When he got there I was shocked at how many kids they take that are never going to play. A D3 football team has over 100 kids sometime. He got hurt his sophomore year and there was another kid with his # the next week. I asked him about it and he said there are more kids than #s. At that time they had 110 kids in the program. The biggest thing and what I was most happy about is even though D3 schools can't give out sports scholarships it is funny how other grants and academic scholarships become available. Now I would love if we were in @Scott Dierking's boat, 60% off would be HUGE. But anything helps. So that is my point, anything they can do for these kids, they should. The kids are being used and abused. So ease things up a bit and make sure the kids are taken care of more than they are now. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 7 minutes ago, peebag said: Just a side note: I often wonder why the big time athletic schools just don't tell the NCAA to go f' themselves and start their own athletic system. They get to keep their own money. That was about to happen but then the Rock ended up buying a pro team and the NCAA survived. Oh wait that was Ballers nevermind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 30 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said: Baseball is no walk in the park either. 8 years of travel ball. On championship days, you sometimes have to play 4 games. With times in between. We had championships, in the Northeast, in March, playing out 10pm. I recall our right fielder pissing in his pants in the field just to stay warm. I hope that kid got an athletic scholarship because I feel like an academic scholarship wasn't in the cards for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbatesman Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 1 hour ago, JiF said: How would this be normal? Do your children currently graduate high school with a career agent telling what to do, where to go and how to invest their money? I don’t mean normal in the sense of commonplace. Let’s say normalized instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 8 minutes ago, Maxman said: I hope that kid got an athletic scholarship because I feel like an academic scholarship wasn't in the cards for him. University of Alabama. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Embrace the Suck Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 5 hours ago, Warfish said: TBQH the solution is an end to for-profit sports at colleges. Colleges and Universities are supposed to be for education, not sports for kids who couldn't have a shot at getting in the school on their brains. They should focus on actual education, and let minor league sports, if an interest exists to have it, be it's own thing. Everyone wins, schools do what they're actually supposed to do, and a new business of minor league sports is created to feed players to the NFL/NBA and make a profit (for players and owners) while doing so. Yeah, that would make everyone happy*, and I couldn't agree more. *- Except these people NCAA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimjasi Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 5 hours ago, msena88 said: I'm not saying I'm some huge proponent of the NCAA, but there is a reason other than greed that they haven't allowed players to accept benefits. I'm not the first person to ask you this, but I have yet to see a cogent response - what is the non-greedy reason? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 10 minutes ago, slimjasi said: I'm not the first person to ask you this, but I have yet to see a cogent response - what is the non-greedy reason? To keep everyone under their thumb. That have to exert and wield their power in order to make people believe they actually do have power and authority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Lonelyhearts Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 Weird how everybody goes commie when the right people are getting their sh*t appropriated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimjasi Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 18 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said: To keep everyone under their thumb. That have to exert and wield their power in order to make people believe they actually do have power and authority. Sure, to wield power and feign authority, as they make tons of money. The two go together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New York Mick Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 Wouldn’t this give an unfair advantage to schools in large markets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Jet Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 The kids doing long term damage to their bodies for our amusement being compensated with “top class healthcare” as a point in the NCAA’s favour was my favourite point in this thread of madness. ❤️ u Americans. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 10 minutes ago, slimjasi said: Sure, to wield power and feign authority, as they make tons of money. The two go together. Those things always go together. Mark Emmert is a bully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 5 minutes ago, Irish Jet said: The kids doing long term damage to their bodies for our amusement being compensated with “top class healthcare” as a point in the NCAA’s favour was my favourite point in this thread of madness. ❤️ u Americans. What they should focus on first is workman's compensation for all athletes at every level that are injured. That would be a productive first step. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetscode1 Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 6 hours ago, msena88 said: To break up the monotony of arguing about if the trainers suck more than Gase, for those of you who follow college sports (specifically football) what are your thoughts on the bill that California has passed allowing college athletes to profit off of their own name and likeness? Personally, I think people don't quite understand the ramifications this would have. In a vacuum it makes total sense but just doesn't work in real world applications, even if it was allowed in every state. Freedom works. Treat them like any other student on scholarship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Jet Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 But a close second would be "Let's not compensate this kid young adult for his labour lest he invest it in stripclubs and bitcoin" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msena88 Posted October 2, 2019 Author Share Posted October 2, 2019 4 hours ago, slimjasi said: I'm not the first person to ask you this, but I have yet to see a cogent response - what is the non-greedy reason? First off because there is no direct pay to play system that would work. As has been discussed here, allowing them to profit off their own names is going to be a gigantic mess that isn’t going to work either. This is the problem with this argument, nobody has been able to outline a plan that does not exacerbate all the existing issues while creating a whole slew of new ones. Everyone is just quick to say “pay the kids” but nobody actually has an idea on how to do it because it doesn’t work. I am not against the kids getting a piece of the pie, I just find it ridiculous that people try to say they’re not getting anything in return for their athletic services. If there is a way for the NCAA to set aside a fund and provide shares that vest down the road or something we may be on to something, but I’m not sure how that could work with things like Title 9. I’m all ears for a plan that doesn’t tear down the whole system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RutgersJetFan Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 I too think that the labor historian’s opinion is useless on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 No easy answers to this one while on the one hand it’s downright un-American for someone else to profit off of your labor without you getting a portion of it, I don’t think anyone wants to see college ball become a highest-bidder situation either where players are basically free agents moving from college to college. It’s an interesting debate. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelticwizard Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 14 hours ago, Thai Jet said: Yup NCAA can declare California teams off limits as far as other non Cal teams playing against them. They'd only have themselves to play against. How many people want to just see Stanford, Cal, USC and UCLA play against each other ? No Bowl games unless it's against each other. Good old California... leading the Nation into ruin one step at a time. Must disagree. California is over 10% of the country's population, and produces a lot more than 10% of the country's outstanding athletes. If the NCAA kicked them out, California can just laugh and start their own collegiate league immediately. Guaranteed, the NFL will be drafting kids from the California league right off the bat. Not only will the California league easily hold its own against the NCAA from the first year on, but if they partner up with other states like New York and others, the NCAA is in distinct danger of being replaced as the primary representative of collegiate sports by the new league, since the California league will be offering outstanding players a better deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 3 hours ago, kelticwizard said: Must disagree. California is over 10% of the country's population, and produces a lot more than 10% of the country's outstanding athletes. If the NCAA kicked them out, California can just laugh and start their own collegiate league immediately. Guaranteed, the NFL will be drafting kids from the California league right off the bat. Not only will the California league easily hold its own against the NCAA from the first year on, but if they partner up with other states like New York and others, the NCAA is in distinct danger of being replaced as the primary representative of collegiate sports by the new league, since the California league will be offering outstanding players a better deal. This is not going to be a California thing only. Other states are already involved. The NCAA is going to compromise. It is just a matter where the compromise falls. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msena88 Posted October 2, 2019 Author Share Posted October 2, 2019 4 hours ago, jgb said: No easy answers to this one while on the one hand it’s downright un-American for someone else to profit off of your labor without you getting a portion of it, I don’t think anyone wants to see college ball become a highest-bidder situation either where players are basically free agents moving from college to college. It’s an interesting debate. One of the biggest things I fear is that for those unaware, pretty much every college athletic program besides football and basketball runs at a loss for universities. Has this money lined the pockets of some higher ups, of course. But the lions share of those dollars is reinvested back into the university in a variety of ways, including subsidizing all of the other student athlete sports. Ohio State operates 37 division 1 programs, all of which are paid for from the proceeds of the football team. Disrupting the distribution of that revenue is likely to also mean the sunsetting of programs for other students. Also, what is now going to stop universities from pulling some benefits given to players in their major programs once they realize this kids have their own money? Why give a kid a scholarship who has a $300k endorsement deal? Also, good luck keeping academic eligibility a thing once all the cash flows in. I totally get what the other side of the table is arguing, but to me the list of negatives far outweighs the positives. We are talking about the 1% of college athletes that will receive any sort of meaningful sums of money to potentially impact 100% of college athletes negatively. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msena88 Posted October 2, 2019 Author Share Posted October 2, 2019 Just now, Scott Dierking said: This is not going to be a California thing only. Other states are already involved. The NCAA is going to compromise. It is just a matter where the compromise falls. Correct, none of the state legislation will matter. The NCAA’s changes to their policies are what will matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 15 minutes ago, msena88 said: One of the biggest things I fear is that for those unaware, pretty much every college athletic program besides football and basketball runs at a loss for universities. Has this money lined the pockets of some higher ups, of course. But the lions share of those dollars is reinvested back into the university in a variety of ways, including subsidizing all of the other student athlete sports. Ohio State operates 37 division 1 programs, all of which are paid for from the proceeds of the football team. Disrupting the distribution of that revenue is likely to also mean the sunsetting of programs for other students. Also, what is now going to stop universities from pulling some benefits given to players in their major programs once they realize this kids have their own money? Why give a kid a scholarship who has a $300k endorsement deal? Also, good luck keeping academic eligibility a thing once all the cash flows in. I totally get what the other side of the table is arguing, but to me the list of negatives far outweighs the positives. We are talking about the 1% of college athletes that will receive any sort of meaningful sums of money to potentially impact 100% of college athletes negatively. I totally agree. This is what I alluded to earlier in this thread. Football and basketball fund all of those other sports. At least that is the Universityspeak, and probably is at least partially true. If the Universities have to shell out any of this money, you can probably be sure that they will claim they need to shut down other sports. They are that petty. The reality is that athletes are not going to get paid for "performance". They may get paid for endorsements and other things. I would guess that it will look something like this: -Endorsement money will not go 100% directly to the athlete. It will be shared somehow. And, the university will get a cut too. They will look to limit this, and probably should. -Athletes will, and should get paid to run their own camps. It will be highly regulated to the detriment of the athlete doing this. -Merchandising will go into some type of shared pot. The athlete will only get a fraction. As I said earlier also, they need to funnel monies to better training and care of the athletes. it is woefully underfunded today. And, there should be some type of workman's comp for injured athletes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 18 hours ago, dbatesman said: Let’s just skip ahead to the good stuff: I’m not a college athlete, and my kids aren’t college athletes, so my opinion is worth less than yours, right? Hard to believe you're not an athlete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 Intuitively I support the athletes, not governing bodies, profiting from thier abilities. However I dont really understand the issue and there is lots of fear mongering in the thread about how awful this would be, but really no details as to why it would be awful. What is the concern? Nothing mentioned in thread so far seems enough justification not to pay them 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apache 51 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 19 hours ago, JiF said: College sports is about to be ruined too. NBA and NFL are garbage. So MLB? I started watching Hockey. Hoping that will stick. The Islanders are good, I think. All true. Now We Rise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 13 hours ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said: Weird how everybody goes commie when the right people are getting their sh*t appropriated. And likewise, weird how the commies dont worry so much about inequality when the right people are coming out on top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbatesman Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 17 minutes ago, CTM said: Hard to believe you're not an athlete. I was a star Mathlete 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 15 minutes ago, CTM said: Intuitively I support the athletes, not governing bodies, profiting from thier abilities. However I dont really understand the issue and there is lots of fear mongering in the thread about how awful this would be, but really no details as to why it would be awful. What is the concern? Nothing mentioned in thread so far seems enough justification not to pay them My concern, from the competitive side (team) of things is this will create an elite 1% of haves vs a large group of have nots. And any time there is a disproportion of how people are treated, it creates animosity and jealousy. And, in a team sense that is always a game killer. Let's say I am a star qb and I get an endorsement deal for xxx amount of dollars. Let's say that I have some very good line-men in front of me and they get nothing. Can those linemen begin to feel cheated out of something they help contribute to? I would think so. If we can create a system that shares the profit across all athletes, I think that is a much better system. Of course they are some gray areas: -Monies from signings-Should that be shared? I would say yes. -Monies from a student/athlete run camp. Should that be shared? I would say no. It is just not cut and dry, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msena88 Posted October 2, 2019 Author Share Posted October 2, 2019 28 minutes ago, CTM said: Intuitively I support the athletes, not governing bodies, profiting from thier abilities. However I dont really understand the issue and there is lots of fear mongering in the thread about how awful this would be, but really no details as to why it would be awful. What is the concern? Nothing mentioned in thread so far seems enough justification not to pay them I think you need to go back and re-read some of the posts then, it has clearly been outlined how this has far reaching negative impacts across college athletics. Also, your first sentence outlines how little you know about the issue. Go do some research and you'll quickly figure out there is not much profit being generated. People need to learn the difference between gross revenue and net revenue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 1 minute ago, msena88 said: I think you need to go back and re-read some of the posts then, it has clearly been outlined how this has far reaching negative impacts across college athletics. Also, your first sentence outlines how little you know about the issue. Go do some research and you'll quickly figure out there is not much profit being generated. People need to learn the difference between gross revenue and net revenue. I think you need to better understand the terms you are using. Net revenue is not profit just because you changed the word gross to net And I already conceded I do not know the issue well, it was my second sentence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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