Zone Blocking Lineman

[BCJet]

Ive seen a lot of guys in the mock draft threads selecting players like Isiah Wilson and Damien Lewis, and while they are good mid round picks, I dont think they fit the athletic profile that JD used in Free Agency, so I wanted to see who you guys thought did fit the mold of an athletic OT or IOL who can play in this outside zone type system that Gase wants to run.  

At OT, Josh Jones (trade down) and Ezra Cleveland are easy choices, but I also think the Prince TW fits the mold too, although he doesnt have experience on the right side (Fant would likely move there).   He was s a 3 year starter at LT vs good competition. 

At IOL, Jonah Jackson is an excellent zone fit (somehow Pauline has him in the 6-7th round) at guard and then you have 3 mid round centers in Hennessy, Nick Harris and Throckmorton (played all 5 positions) who would be good fits in a zone system.

Who else do you guys like to fit this type of profile?

[Sonny Werblin]

BCjet gets it. JD has said he will draft players to fit jets system. It takes a good chunk of the O linemen off JDs board entirely.

[jetstream23]

6 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

BCjet gets it. JD has said he will draft players to fit jets system. It takes a good chunk of the O linemen off JDs board entirely.

Exactly!

The idea that Joe D. will simply go down a list similar to what the Draft "experts" and mock draft websites have is just ridiculous.  He wants a nimble, athletic, mobile OLineman who can move in space and execute zone-blocking assignments.  The fit/talent/value mix could point more towards 2nd round guys than 1st round guys IMO.

[Dinamite]

1 hour ago, jetstream23 said:

Exactly!

The idea that Joe D. will simply go down a list similar to what the Draft "experts" and mock draft websites have is just ridiculous.  He wants a nimble, athletic, mobile OLineman who can move in space and execute zone-blocking assignments.  The fit/talent/value mix could point more towards 2nd round guys than 1st round guys IMO.

Wills/Wirfs would fit that well, along with the "position versatility" that JD craves.   Not sure about A. Thomas, who I like.  Also not sure about Becton since he is more of a gamble.

 

I do think JD likes Josh Jones (from senior bowl reports) and may trade down with a team like the Eagles and try to pick him there and get an extra 2 and some change.

[RobR]

Becton at the second level. If you watch enough tape you can see him take out CB's 15-20 yards down the field.

[#27TheDominator]

Offensive line guys. what about Runyan? He is a guy that has the athletic traits and the pedigree.  Those things usually make a guy talked about too early. but I never here he mentioned even when guys are talking about 5th and 6th rounders.  Why? Seems like a nice developmental prospect 

[TheMo]

2 hours ago, RobR said:

Becton at the second level. If you watch enough tape you can see him take out CB's 15-20 yards down the field.

You think Thomas is athletic enough for JD? I tend to think so from watching his tape but was wondering your thoughts. He's not a freak like wirfs and Becton but he'd play very well in a zone scheme. 

[bitonti]

17 hours ago, BCJet said:

Prince TW fits the mold too, although he doesnt have experience on the right side (Fant would likely move there).  

this is the one statement of yours I disagree with 

George Fant is a left tackle. He's not a right tackle. Seattle would have used him at right tackle if he had any acumen for the spot

they literally just replaced Germain Ifedi with Brandon Shell 

 

as for Prince it usually works the other way they take college LT's and move them inside or to RT. the fact he's playing LT means he's Auburn's best lineman, not necessarily that he projects to NFL starter LT

also he failed the senior bowl medical with a knee thing which is crazy because no one fails those things 

[BCJet]

6 hours ago, bitonti said:

this is the one statement of yours I disagree with 

George Fant is a left tackle. He's not a right tackle. Seattle would have used him at right tackle if he had any acumen for the spot

they literally just replaced Germain Ifedi with Brandon Shell 

 

as for Prince it usually works the other way they take college LT's and move them inside or to RT. the fact he's playing LT means he's Auburn's best lineman, not necessarily that he projects to NFL starter LT

also he failed the senior bowl medical with a knee thing which is crazy because no one fails those things 

Im actually with you on Fant, I think he is much better served to not have to "learn" 2 positions and believe we should keep him exclusively on the left side.  But in the event we have a guy like Josh Jones, who is also "exclusively" at LT then im not sure its worth stunting the rookies development over Fant's.

Ideally I think Wills is the best fit for the team and JD as he is an athletic RT who could transition to LT in 2021 if Fant doesn't work out, 2023 if Fant becomes expensive or never.

Looking at the later round guys Colton McKitivtz from West Virginia is a good RT prospect, but not a high end athlete.  Niang is also an interesting guy as he played RT and ran 5.27.

I wonder about the two small school guys (Bartch and Peart) being able to contribute as rookies at RT?

[Dinamite]

Whichever OL the jets draft, I can see them starting at RT (or guard) for a year, then transitioning to LT in year 2 (or middle of year 1 if necessary).  It is tough for a rookie OL to start right away at LT.

[RobR]

8 hours ago, TheMo said:

You think Thomas is athletic enough for JD? I tend to think so from watching his tape but was wondering your thoughts. He's not a freak like wirfs and Becton but he'd play very well in a zone scheme. 

I think Thomas would be fine....he's still my second rated OT.

[Sonny Werblin]

11 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

Offensive line guys. what about Runyan? He is a guy that has the athletic traits and the pedigree.  Those things usually make a guy talked about too early. but I never here he mentioned even when guys are talking about 5th and 6th rounders.  Why? Seems like a nice developmental prospect 

Shell had a pedigree too

[PepPep]

Tyler Biadasz can fit any system. I think he will fall to round 3-4 and whoever gets him will be getting a steal (assuming the guy can stay on the field). 

[Beerfish]

23 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

BCjet gets it. JD has said he will draft players to fit jets system. It takes a good chunk of the O linemen off JDs board entirely.

Which cuts your draft in half or worse and in the long run is a fools errand.

[TheMo]

37 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Which cuts your draft in half or worse and in the long run is a fools errand.

Disagree a little here. Unless he is very dogmatic about (ala Andrew Thomas isn't a perfect ZBS fit so I won't take him even though he is an excellent prospect and will like thrive in it, just isn't the cookie cutter example). Having a pervasive strategy for the whole organization is what differentiates between the good organization and the bad ones. Granted I am applying my business strategy teachings here but even the Jets need a value proposition. If that is zone blocking for three offensive line, you want to invest mainly in pieces that fit that. I agree with you that there are those who are great prospects that kinda sit in the middle or might be even better in a man system (while still being excellent in ZBS). Joe Douglas needs to thread that needle which would dive into utility curves which I will not bore anyone with. 

Long story short. I disagree a tiny bit but understand your overall sentiment. Think we are all suffering some PTSD from that jackass Mac who blindly adhered to a normally sound strategy which led to the cluster that the team is in now. Flexibility in thought process is the key to any good company. 

[BCJet]

16 minutes ago, TheMo said:

Disagree a little here. Unless he is very dogmatic about (ala Andrew Thomas isn't a perfect ZBS fit so I won't take him even though he is an excellent prospect and will like thrive in it, just isn't the cookie cutter example). Having a pervasive strategy for the whole organization is what differentiates between the good organization and the bad ones. Granted I am applying my business strategy teachings here but even the Jets need a value proposition. If that is zone blocking for three offensive line, you want to invest mainly in pieces that fit that. I agree with you that there are those who are great prospects that kinda sit in the middle or might be even better in a man system (while still being excellent in ZBS). Joe Douglas needs to thread that needle which would dive into utility curves which I will not bore anyone with. 

Long story short. I disagree a tiny bit but understand your overall sentiment. Think we are all suffering some PTSD from that jackass Mac who blindly adhered to a normally sound strategy which led to the cluster that the team is in now. Flexibility in thought process is the key to any good company. 

I agree with this, as long as its not a completely off the reservation system where the players can't be used at all if we have a new HC in 2021.  Zone blocking and athletic lineman as opposed to "powerful maulers" is common enough that a new HC in 2021 can make it work.  I also think given the nature of offenses being more open, etc that the days of the true power running OL are getting to be less common

[Beerfish]

22 minutes ago, TheMo said:

Disagree a little here. Unless he is very dogmatic about (ala Andrew Thomas isn't a perfect ZBS fit so I won't take him even though he is an excellent prospect and will like thrive in it, just isn't the cookie cutter example). Having a pervasive strategy for the whole organization is what differentiates between the good organization and the bad ones. Granted I am applying my business strategy teachings here but even the Jets need a value proposition. If that is zone blocking for three offensive line, you want to invest mainly in pieces that fit that. I agree with you that there are those who are great prospects that kinda sit in the middle or might be even better in a man system (while still being excellent in ZBS). Joe Douglas needs to thread that needle which would dive into utility curves which I will not bore anyone with. 

Long story short. I disagree a tiny bit but understand your overall sentiment. Think we are all suffering some PTSD from that jackass Mac who blindly adhered to a normally sound strategy which led to the cluster that the team is in now. Flexibility in thought process is the key to any good company. 

This strategy is great if you have bill belichick or mike tomlin or some coach that is going to be there for 20 years.  In modern NFL coaches have short shelf lives so if Gase flops two more years and is gone then you're stuck with his system players and get to watch a really good player have a 10 year career that you could have drafted.

[bitonti]

5 hours ago, BCJet said:

 

Ideally I think Wills is the best fit for the team and JD as he is an athletic RT who could transition to LT in 2021 if Fant doesn't work out, 2023 if Fant becomes expensive or never.

 

Wills is the worst fit for the team. He's too short for Gase's preference and he's got too many penalties for JD's preference

Watch the iron bowl again Wills has the biggest penalties at the worst time

now, would JD pass on this player? He'd have to think long and hard about it but let's just say he probably hopes Wills is off the board prior to the Jets pick at 11 

[derp]

20 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Wills is the worst fit for the team. He's too short for Gase's preference and he's got too many penalties for JD's preference

Watch the iron bowl again Wills has the biggest penalties at the worst time

now, would JD pass on this player? He'd have to think long and hard about it but let's just say he probably hopes Wills is off the board prior to the Jets pick at 11 

Where are there good penalty stats? Was a clear trend in FA and could give some more insights like your post above.

[#27TheDominator]

2 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Shell had a pedigree too

Agreed.  The last thing I would do is suggest Runyan to start the year, but I think he will be on teams for years.  He probably is a similar prospect to Shell.  I think Shell is/was a little bigger and longer, Runyan a little more nimble.  Shell went in the 5th and people thought he would start.  They thought he was a steal.  We traded a 4th the following year to move up for him.  I have never been a Shell fan, but he was not a horrible pick and showed some promise.  If Runyan is similar, why haven't I heard anything about him?  

[bitonti]

17 minutes ago, derp said:

Where are there good penalty stats? Was a clear trend in FA and could give some more insights like your post above.

I had to manually go through the play by plays for 2019 searching for their names 

Wills 6 TOTAL penalties, 4 false starts (3 total in the Iron Bowl, yikes).

Wirfs 2 total penalties, 2 false starts (Rutgers, Michigan both wins)

Becton 2 total penalties, 1 false start/1 Personal Foul (penalty-free all year until KY rivalry loss in Nov, both penalties occurred in that game)

Thomas 1 total penalty, 1 false start (Florida during a big win)

[Villain The Foe]

5 hours ago, Dinamite said:

Whichever OL the jets draft, I can see them starting at RT (or guard) for a year, then transitioning to LT in year 2 (or middle of year 1 if necessary).  It is tough for a rookie OL to start right away at LT.

Edge rushers that rush on their left side, or to the side of the Right Tackle.

1. J.J. Watt (future HOF'er)

2. Joey Bosa (Both sides)

3. Von Miller (future HOF'er)

4. Chandler Jones (Both sides)

5. TJ Watt (nightmare)

6. Brandon Graham

7. Danielle Hunter

8. Shaq Barrett (Both sides and just led the league in sacks). 

 

RT is not a walk in the park. Both tackle positions need to be legit. 

[Sonny Werblin]

6 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Which cuts your draft in half or worse and in the long run is a fools errand.

The fool’s errand would be to draft square pegs for round holes.

[Beerfish]

If these square pegs are much better than other square pegs then you get the guy making the puzzle to adapt is puzzle fit those pegs.

[kdels62]

The big 4 are all great athletes. I don’t think Wills plays as great as his measurable but he’s still really damn good. 

Outside of those 4:

Lucas Niang (Injury prone)

Jack Driscoll (Lack of vertical strength)

Matt Peart (Raw and light)

Ezra Cleveland (ugliest pass sets)

Austin Jackson (I hate watching him play)

All of those guys are exceptional athletes with Cleveland being the most moldable. 

[Beerfish]

So Josh Jones is a great fit for us but Andrew Thomas is not.

Jones: 6'5" - 319, 5.27 40, 28.5 vertical, 109 broad jump

Thomas: 6'5" - 315, 5.22 40, 30.5 vertical, 109 broad jump

[RobR]

46 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

So Josh Jones is a great fit for us but Andrew Thomas is not.

Jones: 6'5" - 319, 5.27 40, 28.5 vertical, 109 broad jump

Thomas: 6'5" - 315, 5.22 40, 30.5 vertical, 109 broad jump

Thanks for bringing some sanity to the discussion. Thomas also has an arm length that is over 2" longer than Jones but he's not a fit for some. It makes absolutely no sense.

[#27TheDominator]

1 hour ago, RobR said:

Thanks for bringing some sanity to the discussion. Thomas also has an arm length that is over 2" longer than Jones but he's not a fit for some. It makes absolutely no sense.They 

One of the Seahawks guys does a big board.  He bases it on the physical criteria that the Seahawks usually draft.  He has Thomas #1, followed by Cleveland, Austin Jackson and Jones.   I'm not sure why he doesn't have Wirfs, or Wills.  Maybe he assumes that Wirfs will be gone, and Wills too high for a guy that is about a tenth slow of what they look for in the shuttle.  He doesn't have Becton either, maybe because of no cone time and low bench.  FWIW, the Jets and Seahawks seem to look for similar O line.

[RobR]

11 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

One of the Seahawks guys does a big board.  He bases it on the physical criteria that the Seahawks usually draft.  He has Thomas #1, followed by Cleveland, Austin Jackson and Jones.   I'm not sure why he doesn't have Wirfs, or Wills.  Maybe he assumes that Wirfs will be gone, and Wills too high for a guy that is about a tenth slow of what they look for in the shuttle.  He doesn't have Becton either, maybe because of no cone time and low bench.  FWIW, the Jets and Seahawks seem to look for similar O line.

That might be the strangest ranking I've ever seen and it's not like teams should model themselves around the Seahawks Oline. The Seahawks also let Fant go for basically nothing and he was nothing more than a back-up for them.

 

 

[TheMo]

9 hours ago, Beerfish said:

This strategy is great if you have bill belichick or mike tomlin or some coach that is going to be there for 20 years.  In modern NFL coaches have short shelf lives so if Gase flops two more years and is gone then you're stuck with his system players and get to watch a really good player have a 10 year career that you could have drafted.

Again it shouldn't supercede the talent argument. For example if he picked Jones over Thomas I'd lose it even if Jones is was the more  classic zone guy (he's not in reality, see beerfish post above). Thomas like I've mentioned is going to do well in zone and is the overall better player. You can consider scheme fit and rank accordingly. It just can't be your only consideration. Just like BPA can't be your only consideration since you might end up not getting the result out of a prospect that way either. 

[BCJet]

12 hours ago, RobR said:

Thanks for bringing some sanity to the discussion. Thomas also has an arm length that is over 2" longer than Jones but he's not a fit for some. It makes absolutely no sense.

Dont forget that Thomas also has experience at RT.  I just dont see him making it to 11 as he is too good of a fit for the Browns.

As for Wills, I dont know anything about the penalties but how can he be "too short" hes 6'4?

[derp]

Taking into account what I’m able to figure out (player traits, needs, draft class depth, etc) and knowing that JD knows a whole lot more about the offensive line than me, my two dreams for this draft are:

1. He thinks Becton is the next long-term top of the NFL level tackle and takes him at eleven.

2. He pulls some Ozzie Newsome level stuff and moves down, picks up an extra day 2 selection, and grabs Andrew Thomas later in the first because the rest of the NFL got bored of him for no good reason (I know the board doesn’t buy this as a possibility at all but several mocks have him slip into the twenties and this is my dream, damnit).

Both of those would be followed by two receivers on day two. Since it’s a dream but I know Douglas wants to add speed let’s call it Mims and Reagor or Shenault. I know Mims *should* go in the first but there’s always this guy the NFL and the draft community are not on the same page about - I think it could be Mims this year. Reagor and Shenault both check a lot of the day 2 steal boxes - good breakout ages and weights. They could take safeties and kickers for the rest of the draft and I’d be happy.

[RobR]

2 hours ago, BCJet said:

As for Wills, I dont know anything about the penalties but how can he be "too short" hes 6'4?

I never said he was too short. 

[bitonti]

16 hours ago, Beerfish said:

So Josh Jones is a great fit for us but Andrew Thomas is not.

Jones: 6'5" - 319, 5.27 40, 28.5 vertical, 109 broad jump

Thomas: 6'5" - 315, 5.22 40, 30.5 vertical, 109 broad jump

 

16 hours ago, RobR said:

Thanks for bringing some sanity to the discussion. Thomas also has an arm length that is over 2" longer than Jones but he's not a fit for some. It makes absolutely no sense.

the difference between having 36  1/8 inch arms (thomas) and 33 5/8 inch (Jones) is massive in OL terms

it's like the difference between a 4.4 Linebacker and a 4.7 linebacker. Do they have 4.7 linebackers? yes they just don't go in rd 1 

I think the Jets can play chicken with players like Josh Jones. He might make it to 2 especially after all the teams with dire tackle needs go heavy in rd 1 

[BCJet]

22 hours ago, derp said:

Taking into account what I’m able to figure out (player traits, needs, draft class depth, etc) and knowing that JD knows a whole lot more about the offensive line than me, my two dreams for this draft are:

1. He thinks Becton is the next long-term top of the NFL level tackle and takes him at eleven.

2. He pulls some Ozzie Newsome level stuff and moves down, picks up an extra day 2 selection, and grabs Andrew Thomas later in the first because the rest of the NFL got bored of him for no good reason (I know the board doesn’t buy this as a possibility at all but several mocks have him slip into the twenties and this is my dream, damnit).

Both of those would be followed by two receivers on day two. Since it’s a dream but I know Douglas wants to add speed let’s call it Mims and Reagor or Shenault. I know Mims *should* go in the first but there’s always this guy the NFL and the draft community are not on the same page about - I think it could be Mims this year. Reagor and Shenault both check a lot of the day 2 steal boxes - good breakout ages and weights. They could take safeties and kickers for the rest of the draft and I’d be happy.

If we do move down it will likely result in 1 WR and one edge player like Anaee.  I think JD's emphasis will remain on the OL and DL and he will look at CBs in the 3-6th round.