Best move of the first round

[GreenReaper]

On 4/30/2021 at 6:32 AM, Sonny Werblin said:

Or O line

When you decide to build the offense from the outside.  This is what you're building for your QB...

[More Cowbell]

1 hour ago, jetblue95 said:

 

yes, wilson had an extraordinary year his final season, showing great improvement over the prior 2 seasons.  that doesn't mean we just disregard what he did in the prior seasons.  one year wonder is a lazy term, primarily used by people pre-disposed to disliking wilson (or better said, those who wanted someone else).  he actually has more experience than fields, jones and lance, but apparently since those happened before 2020, they don't count for the one year wonder crew.

yes, he played a weak schedule in 2020.  and in 2019, he beat both USC and Tennessee.  do we just ignore these performances and only evaluate what he did during his "one year wonder year"?  i'd be willing to bet the jets (and other teams) looked at all his game film, not just 2020.

If Wilson last season were similar to his first two, Wilson is trying to make a deal as an UDFA. Last season is why he was drafted. Nobody even knew who he was before last season nor did anyone care.

[jetblue95]

36 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

If Wilson last season were similar to his first two, Wilson is trying to make a deal as an UDFA. Last season is why he was drafted. Nobody even knew who he was before last season nor did anyone care.

 

ok, i'm not disputing that.

it still doesn't mean we can't look at his performance against teams like USC and Tenn in 2019.  you said he didn't play anyone.  i showed he beat two power 5 teams, both of which had winning records and went to bowl games, in 2019.  but since it didn't happen last year, you don't count it.

both can be true - he was drafted very high because of his 2020 performance AND he has a track record that is more than 2020, including wins against USC and Tenn in 2019.

[More Cowbell]

5 minutes ago, jetblue95 said:

 

ok, i'm not disputing that.

it still doesn't mean we can't look at his performance against teams like USC and Tenn in 2019.  you said he didn't play anyone.  i showed he beat two power 5 teams, both of which had winning records and went to bowl games, in 2019.  but since it didn't happen last year, you don't count it.

both can be true - he was drafted very high because of his 2020 performance AND he has a track record that is more than 2020, including wins against USC and Tenn in 2019.

Can you pull out any more irrelevant things? 

Bowl games? Who doesn't  go to a bowl game?

Iowa beat that powerhouse USC team in the Holiday Bowl by like 3 TD's

The Vols played Indiana in the Taxslayer Gator Bowl. Yes,  the Vols played a school better known for Basketball in its bowl game.  

Mean while Fields played Alabama in the National Championship game. 

[pdxgreen]

A lot of people panned it but I love what Douglas did in getting Alija Vera-Tucker.  Throwing out absolute draft pick value for a top player at a position you absolutely need.  Because in five or six years you won't even think about a two third round pick overpay.  Maybe it's not the best move.  But I think it is.

[Augustiniak]

Just now, pdxgreen said:

A lot of people panned it but I love what Douglas did in getting Alija Vera-Tucker.  Throwing out absolute draft pick value for a top player at a position you absolutely need.  Because in five or six years you won't even think about a two third round pick overpay.  Maybe it's not the best move.  But I think it is.

draft analysts don't care if wilson gets sacked or not, they care about draft value.  at the same time they're not gms and don't have to get rejected by offereing $15+M per year to guards in FA.  it's way cheaper to trade up for one.

[Shockwave]

Absolutely the Bears hands down. 

I think Fields landed in the worst position in the NFL and its going to kill his development. 

But from a FO perspective those guys just saved their jobs. Thats a FO that should have been fired and now there all going to get extended bc of one move. Brilliant for them. 

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, Shockwave said:

Absolutely the Bears hands down. 

I think Fields landed in the worst position in the NFL and its going to kill his development. 

 

funny, most people think that about wilson.

[FidelioJet]

21 minutes ago, pdxgreen said:

A lot of people panned it but I love what Douglas did in getting Alija Vera-Tucker.  Throwing out absolute draft pick value for a top player at a position you absolutely need.  Because in five or six years you won't even think about a two third round pick overpay.  Maybe it's not the best move.  But I think it is.

This was the best move of the draft.  Joe Douglas had the best draft in the league this year and the best Jets draft in 15 years.

Moving to lock up the best guard in the draft just when you drafted your future FQB - when you had a weak OL.

The move was fantastic.

[Tranquilo]

17 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

funny, most people think that about wilson.

After the draft, I don't see that anywhere, but if you'd like to share...

[FidelioJet]

1 hour ago, More Cowbell said:

If Wilson last season were similar to his first two, Wilson is trying to make a deal as an UDFA. Last season is why he was drafted. Nobody even knew who he was before last season nor did anyone care.

I can't believe we're still doing this!

It's over, he's the Jets QB. What he did last year or three years ago, or three days ago doesn't matter.

Wilson was drafted for his skill-set.  Not for his record, not for where he played, not for his stats, not for what games he lost or who he beat.

He was drafted because his skill-set (mental and physical) translate very well to the NFL.  

And for the record he still would have been drafted very high if he didn't have such an explosive season.  Just because you didn't hear of him doesn't mean NFL GM's didn't.

You can look at guys like Allen and Wentz to clearly prove this point. 

 

[More Cowbell]

13 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I can't believe we're still doing this!

It's over, he's the Jets QB. What he did last year or three years ago, or three days ago doesn't matter.

Wilson was drafted for his skill-set.  Not for his record, not for where he played, not for his stats, not for what games he lost or who he beat.

He was drafted because his skill-set (mental and physical) translate very well to the NFL.  

And for the record he still would have been drafted very high if he didn't have such an explosive season.  Just because you didn't hear of him doesn't mean NFL GM's didn't.

You can look at guys like Allen and Wentz to clearly prove this point. 

 

What Hell is wrong with you. Yes,  he is our QB and I fully support him and will root like Hell for him to be the best QB I ever watched but that doesn't  mean we will stop  discussing him and of you don't  like the subject matter, you can choose not to respond.  

[FidelioJet]

1 hour ago, More Cowbell said:

What Hell is wrong with you. Yes,  he is our QB and I fully support him and will root like Hell for him to be the best QB I ever watched but that doesn't  mean we will stop  discussing him and of you don't  like the subject matter, you can choose not to respond.  

What the hell is wrong with me?

A little rough don't you think?

I'm glad you're supporting him and excited to know that most fans are fully on board.

It's just the broken record falsehood that he wouldn't have even been considered an NFL prospect if he didn't have a monster year is just wrong.  You keep discussing it and I'll keep telling you you're wrong.  

There's nothing wrong with me other than I like to represent the truth.

[More Cowbell]

53 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

What the hell is wrong with me?

A little rough don't you think?

I'm glad you're supporting him and excited to know that most fans are fully on board.

It's just the broken record falsehood that he wouldn't have even been considered an NFL prospect if he didn't have a monster year is just wrong.  You keep discussing it and I'll keep telling you you're wrong.  

There's nothing wrong with me other than I like to represent the truth.

Try representing what you call the truth without starting your post with

"I can't believe we're still doing this!"

That indicates you feel this subject shouldn't  be discussed. The actual truth is nobody knows because it didn't  happen. You can speculate what you feel would have been the outcome and we can argue it, but I pretty much know Lawrence and Fields were on everyone's radar in 2020, nobody was talking about Wilson then.

[jetblue95]

6 hours ago, More Cowbell said:

Can you pull out any more irrelevant things? 

Bowl games? Who doesn't  go to a bowl game?

Iowa beat that powerhouse USC team in the Holiday Bowl by like 3 TD's

The Vols played Indiana in the Taxslayer Gator Bowl. Yes,  the Vols played a school better known for Basketball in its bowl game.  

Mean while Fields played Alabama in the National Championship game. 

and cardelle jones won a national title for ohio state.  means nothing in terms of professional careers.

i am not questioning the competition fields played vis-a-vis wilson.  fields played on a better, more talented team, and he played against better, more talented teams.

this is what you said:

One year wonder, played against sub par competition,  never faced a real pass rush and the one game he did, he lost. I could go on

i responded that he actually played for 3 years, including beating USC and Tenn in 2019.  not sure why you feel the need to argue a fact.  this is a fact.  he did face power 5 conference teams and a real pass rush in more than 1 game.  you just refuse to admit that his track record includes more than the 2020 season.  

btw - justin fields against indiana in 2020 (18/30, 300 yards, 2 TDs, 3 Ints) - yes, 3 Ints vs a school better known for basketball (which in and of itself is just an idiotic thing to say)

[Morrissey]

9 hours ago, Augustiniak said:

draft analysts don't care if wilson gets sacked or not, they care about draft value.  at the same time they're not gms and don't have to get rejected by offereing $15+M per year to guards in FA.  it's way cheaper to trade up for one.

There was great OL porospects to be had at 23 while also keeping your 2 3rd rounders.. that Could’ve been used to even further rebuild the offensive line. Which is exactly what the Vikings did by taken tackle at 23 (Darrisaw) guard with one of 3rd rounders (Wyatt Davis)

Joe Douglas misjudged what was going to happen. The run on OL at the end of the third first round never came.

[Jets Things]

13 minutes ago, Morrissey said:

There was great OL porospects to be had at 23 while also keeping your 2 3rd rounders.. that Could’ve been used to even further rebuild the offensive line. Which is exactly what the Vikings did by taken tackle at 23 (Darrisaw) guard with one of 3rd rounders (Wyatt Davis)

Joe Douglas misjudged what was going to happen. The run on OL at the end of the third first round never came.

What IOL was better than AVT? I'll wait. 

[Morrissey]

6 minutes ago, Jets Things said:

What IOL was better than AVT? I'll wait. 

Silly argument. Darrisaw could kick inside but hes good enough to stay at tackle ...which the Jets ALSO need. Tackles have more value because they are harder to find. 

[More Cowbell]

11 hours ago, jetblue95 said:

and cardelle jones won a national title for ohio state.  means nothing in terms of professional careers.

i am not questioning the competition fields played vis-a-vis wilson.  fields played on a better, more talented team, and he played against better, more talented teams.

this is what you said:

One year wonder, played against sub par competition,  never faced a real pass rush and the one game he did, he lost. I could go on

i responded that he actually played for 3 years, including beating USC and Tenn in 2019.  not sure why you feel the need to argue a fact.  this is a fact.  he did face power 5 conference teams and a real pass rush in more than 1 game.  you just refuse to admit that his track record includes more than the 2020 season.  

btw - justin fields against indiana in 2020 (18/30, 300 yards, 2 TDs, 3 Ints) - yes, 3 Ints vs a school better known for basketball (which in and of itself is just an idiotic thing to say)

You are hanging your hat against 1 so-so USC team and a bad Vols team in a non-discript year for Wilson. 

As far as Fields game against Indiana, everyone has bad games. Look at Lawrence's game against LSU in 2019 season. 

[Jet Nut]

On 4/30/2021 at 8:15 AM, Dcat said:

They had better be right this time.  After the Bears nightmare trade-up for one spot to get a worse bust than Darnold in Trubisky, now they roll the dice on Fields.    

Agree

Lets face it, if you like Fields as a prospect at QB you think the trade was a great move for the Bears, if you dont think Fields is a top QB prospect, you think the deal by the Bears sucks

[Jetsfan80]

9 hours ago, Morrissey said:

Silly argument. Darrisaw could kick inside but hes good enough to stay at tackle ...which the Jets ALSO need. Tackles have more value because they are harder to find. 

And AVT is not purely a G prospect.  You just inadvertently kicked the sh*t out of your own silly take.  Congrats.

[Morrissey]

7 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

And AVT is not purely a G prospect.  You just inadvertently kicked the sh*t out of your own silly take.  Congrats.

His short arms makes him a better fit inside. Darrisaw doesn't have that problem. Fact is Darrisaw is as good if not better prospect than AVT and could have been had at 23 along with 2 other good prospects in the 3rd.

I'm not going to belabor this much longer, because what's done is done and I like the player, but the process in my view was not good.

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, Morrissey said:

His short arm makes him a better fit inside. Darrisaw doesn't have that problem. Fact is Darrisaw is as good if not better prospect than AVT and could have been had at 23 along with 2 other good prospects in the 3rd.

Oh

[jetblue95]

1 hour ago, More Cowbell said:

You are hanging your hat against 1 so-so USC team and a bad Vols team in a non-discript year for Wilson. 

As far as Fields game against Indiana, everyone has bad games. Look at Lawrence's game against LSU in 2019 season. 

 

i'm not hanging my hat on anything.

i am saying your comment "One year wonder, played against sub par competition,  never faced a real pass rush and the one game he did, he lost. I could go on" is factually incorrect.

the rest of this back-and-forth is you refusing to admit that your statement is factually incorrect because like many interwebz arm-chair GMs, you need to always be correct, even when the FACTS say otherwise.

opinions are fine.  everyone is entitled to their opinion.  you liked fields better - that is fine.  i won't argue your opinion.  JD and apparently a handful of NFL GMs disagreed.  doesn't make them right either, at least at this premature juncture.

but facts are facts.  wilson played more than 1 game against good teams and he beat at least 2 of them (winning record from power 5 conference).  what you said is incorrect.

 

[jetblue95]

1 hour ago, More Cowbell said:

As far as Fields game against Indiana, everyone has bad games. Look at Lawrence's game against LSU in 2019 season. 

 

yes, comparing a game against a so-called "basketball school" (your words, not mine) and a game against the NCAA champion is definitely an apples-to-apples comparison 😁

[Tranquilo]

38 minutes ago, Morrissey said:

His short arms makes him a better fit inside. Darrisaw doesn't have that problem. Fact is Darrisaw is as good if not better prospect than AVT and could have been had at 23 along with 2 other good prospects in the 3rd.

I'm not going to belabor this much longer, because what's done is done and I like the player, but the process in my view was not good.

I don't know how either player is going to turn out but consensus is AVT is a better prospect. 

And also, we need a big time guard prospect. Darrishaw being a tackle and being able to play some guard isn't as good for us as a great guard who can also play tackle.

[Augustiniak]

5 minutes ago, Tranquilo said:

I don't know how either player is going to turn out but consensus is AVT is a better prospect. 

he's also a guard which is what the jets wanted.  

[Morrissey]

17 minutes ago, Tranquilo said:

I don't know how either player is going to turn out but consensus is AVT is a better prospect. 

And also, we need a big time guard prospect. Darrishaw being a tackle and being able to play some guard isn't as good for as as a great guard who can also play tackle.

The Athletic does a draft consensus big board with averages out 70+ top prospect lists.

Darrisaw comes in at #14 and Vera-Tucker at #16.

No sure where you got the idea that Vera-Tucker is a consensus better prospect.

https://theathletic.com/2530534/2021/04/29/2021-nfl-draft-consensus-big-board-70-lists-one-ranking-of-the-top-300-prospects/

Jets also need a big time RT. We had and still do have needs all over the offensive line.

 

 

[Tranquilo]

2 minutes ago, Morrissey said:

The Athletic does a draft consensus big board with averages out 70+ top prospect lists.

Darrisaw comes in at #14 and Vera-Tucker at #16.

https://theathletic.com/2530534/2021/04/29/2021-nfl-draft-consensus-big-board-70-lists-one-ranking-of-the-top-300-prospects/

 

I was wrong on overall prospect. I confused big boards with mock drafts.

Vera-Tucker is the number 1 rated OG though, and we weren't looking for another tackle. 

[Morrissey]

2 minutes ago, Tranquilo said:

I was wrong on overall prospect. I confused big boards with mock drafts.

Vera-Tucker is the number 1 rated OG though, and we weren't looking for another tackle. 

Relying on George Fant is a mistake.

[Tranquilo]

Just now, Morrissey said:

Relying on George Fant is a mistake.

Maybe, but just trying to say that someone like Darrishaw wasn't option A, B, or C. So don't stress it.

[jetblue95]

i can't believe we are relying on professional scouts and not writers for websites and blogz to rank our players 😡

[Morrissey]

5 minutes ago, jetblue95 said:

i can't believe we are relying on professional scouts and not writers for websites and blogz to rank our players 😡

Yawn.

Professional scouts are also responsible for Dee Millner. And no I'm not saying Vera-Tuker is Dee Millner.. but the idea you can't question scouts who make terrible recommendations on the regular doesn't jive.

[jetblue95]

17 minutes ago, Morrissey said:

Yawn.

Professional scouts are also responsible for Dee Millner. And no I'm not saying Vera-Tuker is Dee Millner.. but the idea you can't question scouts who make terrible recommendations on the regular doesn't jive.

 

i didn't say you can't question scouts.  i have readily admitted that JD and his staff can be wrong.

but i don't buy the arm-chair GMing that because draft bloggers, who have none of the access to the players, coaches, tape, etc..., that the pros do, say player X is better means the jets made a mistake because they took player Y.

JD had AVT at a top 10 talent.  according to a report here, he had him as his #2 o-lineman.  now the survey from the atlantic and morrissey the poster may disagree.  that's fine.  but the process was not wrong because it doesn't match YOUR opinion.  the process was fine.  JD saw a player he highly valued and gave up a couple of 3rd rounders to secure someone he thinks was a premium talent.  and did so without giving up the #34 pick or a 1st next year.  he paid much less than the bears paid to make a similar jump up the board.  it can still be a good trade for the jets AND a good trade for the vikings.

but maybe JD should check on in your board and fire his scouting dept and save money by getting a subscription to the atlantic next year.  probably easier then spending thousands of man-hours doing the diligence and research and meeting with the players themselves

[More Cowbell]

2 hours ago, jetblue95 said:

 

i'm not hanging my hat on anything.

i am saying your comment "One year wonder, played against sub par competition,  never faced a real pass rush and the one game he did, he lost. I could go on" is factually incorrect.

the rest of this back-and-forth is you refusing to admit that your statement is factually incorrect because like many interwebz arm-chair GMs, you need to always be correct, even when the FACTS say otherwise.

opinions are fine.  everyone is entitled to their opinion.  you liked fields better - that is fine.  i won't argue your opinion.  JD and apparently a handful of NFL GMs disagreed.  doesn't make them right either, at least at this premature juncture.

but facts are facts.  wilson played more than 1 game against good teams and he beat at least 2 of them (winning record from power 5 conference).  what you said is incorrect.

 

And I believe you are incorrect  calling the Vols and USC good teams when they played BYU.