Bronx Posted March 9, 2022 Author Share Posted March 9, 2022 1 minute ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said: You proved my point. If he isn't them, the team doesn't need a back-up QB, they need a new QB. You either bring in a new QB or try to develop Zach into the type of QB who can win games. Bringing in a better back-up QB solves NOTHING. Do you know how many years it will reset the clock? A re-draft on a future generational QB. If the QB is the missing piece, you grab your cojones like the Broncos did! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNuuFaaolaExperience Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 Just now, Bronx said: Do you know how many years it will reset the clock? A re-draft on a future generational QB. If the QB is the missing piece, you grab your cojones like the Broncos did! Did I say anything about not trading for a QB like Russell Wilson? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warfish Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 Just now, Dcat said: And it isn't a round 4 draft pick either. To rely on that as your back up is reckless. Reckless how? Like, "won't go 0-5 like Joe Flacco has as a backup for the Jets" reckless? Just now, Dcat said: Cousins being starter material from rd 4 was all chance. Which is why you take as many chances as you can when it comes to QB's and never sit on a known-no-hope-no-future guy like Flacco. Just now, Dcat said: I agree fully on Flacco having zero desire. But I don't agree with backing up Wilson at this stage with another total unknown. I'd go for the best vet out there. There just has to be a little better than Flacco. So what Vet are we talking about? A Trubisky type or a Minshew type could have merit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNuuFaaolaExperience Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 2 minutes ago, Warfish said: It's not an either or situation. You can develop Zach (which we SHOULD continue to try to do, my doubts notwithstanding) AND have another, lower-cost prospect behind him hungry for his job. Joe Flacco brings nothing to the table. He can't win games. He isn't a coach. He's just there to cash checks and make our kiddie coaching staff and Wilson feel better because there's an actual adult in the room. FFS this fanbase really does get what it deserves..... Which QB out of this weak draft do you want to draft in the 5th round? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronx Posted March 9, 2022 Author Share Posted March 9, 2022 5 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said: Which QB out of this weak draft do you want to draft in the 5th round? Are we talking about Zach Wilson? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNuuFaaolaExperience Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 Just now, Bronx said: Are we talking about Zach Wilson? Zach Wilson is on the New York Jets. He isn't available in the 2022 draft. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dcat Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 3 minutes ago, Warfish said: Reckless how? Like, "won't go 0-5 like Joe Flacco has as a backup for the Jets" reckless? Which is why you take as many chances as you can when it comes to QB's and never sit on a known-no-hope-no-future guy like Flacco. Backing up an injured Wilson with a zero-experience QB is the wrong approach and is reckless, IMO. Even a washed-up relic like Flacco has a better chance to win games while Wilson is on the bench than a rd 4 pick. Didn't we just draft one of those in the last few years, who never saw the field? I can't even remember the name a t the moment. Great back up for Zach there. Quote So what Vet are we talking about? A Trubisky type or a Minshew type could have merit. exactly. Even if they do draft a QB (again) in the mid rounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warfish Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 6 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said: Which QB out of this weak draft do you want to draft in the 5th round? So it's only Flacco OR a 2022 5th Round Draft Pick? False dichotomy fallacy: is an informal fallacy based on a premise that erroneously limits what options are available. The source of the fallacy lies not in an invalid form of inference but in a false premise. This premise has the form of a disjunctive claim: it asserts that one among a number of alternatives must be true. This disjunction is problematic because it oversimplifies the choice by excluding viable alternatives. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronx Posted March 9, 2022 Author Share Posted March 9, 2022 2 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said: Zach Wilson is on the New York Jets. He isn't available in the 2022 draft. Lol, here we go again...he should have been drafted on the 5th round. I guess I have to spell it out verbatim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNuuFaaolaExperience Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 3 minutes ago, Warfish said: So it's only Flacco OR a 2022 5th Round Draft Pick? False dichotomy fallacy: is an informal fallacy based on a premise that erroneously limits what options are available. The source of the fallacy lies not in an invalid form of inference but in a false premise. This premise has the form of a disjunctive claim: it asserts that one among a number of alternatives must be true. This disjunction is problematic because it oversimplifies the choice by excluding viable alternatives. Ok, Fallacy Phil. What QB on the open market, or undrafted, or in ANY round are the Jets bringing in to "challenge" Zach Wilson? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNuuFaaolaExperience Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 1 minute ago, Bronx said: Lol, here we go again...he should have been drafted on the 5th round. I guess I have to spell it out verbatim. Zach Wilson was drafted 2nd overall. He wasn't drafted in the 5th round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warfish Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 3 minutes ago, Dcat said: Backing up an injured Wilson with a zero-experience QB is the wrong approach and is reckless, IMO. Ok, so I'll ask again, reckless in what way? Surely not wins, because Joe Flacco is 0-5 as out backup. 3 minutes ago, Dcat said: Even a washed-up relic like Flacco has a better chance to win games while Wilson is on the bench than a rd 4 pick. As evidenced by his 0-5 record as our backup? And again we see the false dichotomy fallacy in action, "it's either Flacco or a fresh new 4th round pick". Nope, there are other options available. 3 minutes ago, Dcat said: Didn't we just draft one of those in the last few years, who never saw the field? If we followed that "logic", we wouldn't have drafted Wilson. Didn't we just draft a #1 pick QB who busted badly? 3 minutes ago, Dcat said: I can't even remember the name a t the moment. Great back up for Zach there. Captain Morgan. A bad pick, take it up with JD, who is now picking Flacco. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronx Posted March 9, 2022 Author Share Posted March 9, 2022 3 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said: Zach Wilson was drafted 2nd overall. He wasn't drafted in the 5th round. Sam Darnold had a better season than Zach Wilson. How terrible can this guy be? Overdrafted least to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FidelioJet Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 36 minutes ago, Warfish said: There are people who believe a core tenant of sports is competition, and that competition brings out the best in players. There are also people who believe the priority of the team should be winning games. Not giving up entire seasons for "development". Then there are people for whom almost everything is about protecting Zach Wilson. From criticism. From competition. From expectations. Let's take the view of the Reality position. The reality is, like it or not, the Jets (this GM and HC) are all in on ZW and have faith in him as their full-time starter. Agree or disagree, but that is the reality... Once you accept that, it then becomes a function of allocation of resources. I'm sure they would like to have a strong back-up in case Wilson gets hurt - but the reality is allocating those resources to create a better team - to win now is the better option. As for your third option -This is not about "protecting" Wilson from some made up Boogie man - I don't know a single person looking to protect Wilson from everything. The idea that they're not bringing in competition for Wilson because they're protection him from criticism, competition, expectations is just silly. Just a fallacy made up by people that have been against him since before he was drafted. The reality is they're not signing a better back up because those cap resources can be better used elsewhere. Bottom Line: The Jets want to do the best they can to win now....and they believe not allocating big money to a back up QB is the proper way to do that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warfish Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 4 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said: Ok, Fallacy Phil. Don't get mad at me that you used a fallacy argument. You're a smart dude Nuu, you know the options aren't nearly so limited. 4 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said: What QB on the open market, or undrafted, or in ANY round are the Jets bringing in to "challenge" Zach Wilson? Not my job to identify the guy, nor to have scouted all the many, many QB's available. That's why JD gets paid the big bucks and has a team of scouts and assistants working for him, to help him identify prospects and players. My not having a specific individual player in mind does not negate the flaws and drawbacks of a Joe Flacco. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoot-Face Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 Me, right now: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronx Posted March 9, 2022 Author Share Posted March 9, 2022 7 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said: Ok, Fallacy Phil. What QB on the open market, or undrafted, or in ANY round are the Jets bringing in to "challenge" Zach Wilson? Bridgewater should be the answer. JD probably knows that he F'up and is trying to save his image and job. Let's be real! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronx Posted March 9, 2022 Author Share Posted March 9, 2022 Just now, Spoot-Face said: Me, right now: Good ole' moonshine drinker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal N of Provo Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Warfish said: Then there are people for whom almost everything is about protecting Zach Wilson. From criticism. From competition. From expectations. It’s not about protecting Zach. It’s the medicine the fan base gets to take for being over-football-educated passionate awesome psychopath fans. I think the fans quick trigger fingers and not wasting reps fuel it. Edited March 9, 2022 by Hal N of Provo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adoni Beast Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNuuFaaolaExperience Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 1 minute ago, Bronx said: Sam Darnold had a better season than Zach Wilson. How terrible can this guy be? Overdrafted least to say. Has someone hijacked my account and secretly posting about how great Zach Wilson is as a QB? I think that my assessment of Zach Wilson is pretty based. He is playing at his floor right now and might not be the QB in two years. He also might progress enough to warrant him playing out the season with hopes of him starting in 2023. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNuuFaaolaExperience Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 4 minutes ago, Warfish said: Don't get mad at me that you used a fallacy argument. You're a smart dude Nuu, you know the options aren't nearly so limited. Not my job to identify the guy, nor to have scouted all the many, many QB's available. That's why JD gets paid the big bucks and has a team of scouts and assistants working for him, to help him identify prospects and players. My not having a specific individual player in mind does not negate the flaws and drawbacks of a Joe Flacco. Mad? Nah. Now answer the question that I formulated in a way that isn't a fallacy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRy56 Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 I don’t see a problem here. Guys like Trubisky are going to get Teddy B contracts. JD should not be handing that out, spend it on players who will contribute game in and game out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNuuFaaolaExperience Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 5 minutes ago, Bronx said: Bridgewater should be the answer. JD probably knows that he F'up and is trying to save his image and job. Let's be real! Bringing in a guy who's ceiling is missing the playoffs is the answer at QB? That will really save JD's image. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warfish Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 1 minute ago, FidelioJet said: Let's take the view of the Reality position. Lets. 1 minute ago, FidelioJet said: The reality is, like it or not, the Jets (this GM and HC) are all in on ZW and have faith in him as their full-time starter. Agree or disagree, but that is the reality... I would agree with that statement. 1 minute ago, FidelioJet said: Once you accept that, it then becomes a function of allocation of resources. I'm sure they would like to have a strong back-up in case Wilson gets hurt - but the reality is allocating those resources to create a better team - to win now is the better option. A false argument, because the Jets have regularly NOT spent their available resources. I'd argue that spending the resources (what we plan to pay Flacco plus unspent resources we will ultimately not spend at all) would be better than sticking with Flacco. 1 minute ago, FidelioJet said: The reality is they're not signing a better back up because those cap resources can be better used elsewhere. So if the Jets do not spend to the cap, and we have resources left on the table unspent, you would then agree that is a failure of JD's part, and money that COULD in fact have been used to acquire a superior backup QB with greater potential/future/upside/abillity? 1 minute ago, FidelioJet said: Bottom Line: The Jets want to do the best they can to win now....and they believe not allocating big money to a back up QB is the proper way to do that. That is certainly what I'd expect you, perhaps our biggest resident Wilson white-knight, to think. Guess we'll see. If we win a bunch of games, and Wilson plays all 17, and vastly improves his production over year 1, you (and the Jets) will be proven right. I'll eat that Crow, happily. If he gets hurt and misses time or plays poorly, and Flacco continues his 0-5 Jets Backup trend to-date, then I guess we'll know I was right. Not that I would expect you to admit that, of course, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warfish Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 3 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said: Mad? Nah. Now answer the question that I formulated in a way that isn't a fallacy. I don't have an answer, as I said. I haven't given the question any real quality consideration or analysis. In part because I am a fan, not a paid employee of the Jets front office. And in part because I fully expect(ed) them to just re-sign Flacco and not choose the type of direction for the team I would choose. Not really a point in scouting hundreds of possible QB's at that point for me, is there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronx Posted March 9, 2022 Author Share Posted March 9, 2022 1 minute ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said: Bringing in a guy who's ceiling is missing the playoffs is the answer at QB? That will really save JD's image. If there is a fair competition, Bridgewater will smoke the crap out of Wilson. As long as we are winning games, JD'S job will be safe hence considered an idiot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy2020 Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 I might prefer another option, but at least they're learning you need to have a stabilizing presence on the roster somewhere. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rangerous Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 2 hours ago, Warfish said: The very definition of managing for mediocrity. Flacco, like McCown before him, brings nothing of value to this franchise as a player. He's a glorified "here, let me hold your dick for you" assistant for Wilson, not a QB. We can and should do better. Someone young, hungry, with upside and a future as at least a great #2 QB. Nothing will be worse than having to watch Flacco play 2-3 games next year (or more) if/when Wilson goes down to injury again. If Wilson has to have his veteran QB security blanket, hire him as a Coach. Not as the #2 QB. maybe that's mike white? if nothing else he should have learned from getting pummeled in buffalo and should do his part to correct his play. flacco? he can step right in and run things. give him protection and receivers that get open and he'll make plays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNuuFaaolaExperience Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 6 minutes ago, Bronx said: If there is a fair competition, Bridgewater will smoke the crap out of Wilson. As long as we are winning games, JD'S job will be safe hence considered an idiot. If you like mediocrity, more power to you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNuuFaaolaExperience Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 10 minutes ago, Warfish said: I don't have an answer, as I said. I haven't given the question any real quality consideration or analysis. In part because I am a fan, not a paid employee of the Jets front office. And in part because I fully expect(ed) them to just re-sign Flacco and not choose the type of direction for the team I would choose. Not really a point in scouting hundreds of possible QB's at that point for me, is there? You have no answer but you have a strong opinion about Flacco not being the answer. Nothing left to discuss at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warfish Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 Just now, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said: If you like mediocrity, more power to you. 4-13 2-14 7-9 4-12 5-11 5-11 You were saying? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNuuFaaolaExperience Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 Just now, Warfish said: 4-13 2-14 7-9 4-12 5-11 5-11 You were saying? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesr Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 The very definition of managing for mediocrity. Flacco, like McCown before him, brings nothing of value to this franchise as a player. He's a glorified "here, let me hold your dick for you" assistant for Wilson, not a QB. We can and should do better. Someone young, hungry, with upside and a future as at least a great #2 QB. Nothing will be worse than having to watch Flacco play 2-3 games next year (or more) if/when Wilson goes down to injury again. If Wilson has to have his veteran QB security blanket, hire him as a Coach. Not as the #2 QB."One day, the Joe Flacco type of player will no longer be on this team" Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warfish Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 Just now, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said: You have no answer but you have a strong opinion about Flacco not being the answer. Nothing left to discuss at this point. Yes, I have a strong opinion on the well known quantity of Joe Flacco specifically. No, I do not have a strong opinion on the perhaps hundreds of other QB's that would also be available as a potential #2 QB. I'm sorry if you can't understand that. Maybe I gave you too much credit earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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