Trade value for Zach Wilson? “A two week stay at a Best Western”

[maury77]

17 hours ago, Copernicus said:

I see your point , and given the importance of the QB position makes sense. I continue to feel like something is off about the selection. Just cant see how JD has seemingly hit on all other high picks (Becton and AVT were absolute beasts before injuries) and then misses with Zach when their were many legitimate excuses to pass on him for Fields or trade down

IMO, I think it was a variety of things.

1. The Douglas regime really struggled with drafting during the 2 Covid seasons compared to the last 2 seasons (I think McDonald breaks out next year). 

2. BYU and Wilson really manufactured that season to create favorable scenarios for Wilson. BYU handpicked opponents, Wilson consistently threw from ridiculously large pockets (thus hiding his struggles dealing with pressure that were evident in his tape from prior seasons), he had the arm talent to throw from different angles ala Rodgers and Mahomes and Wilson overwhelmingly benefited from throwing jump balls to his receivers, who would beat out far inferior CBs to come down with the reception.

It all looked cool on highlights, but I kept beating the drum that none of what Wilson was doing was going to be replicable in the NFL because the pockets are much smaller and the defensive backs are a lot better. I was right. 

[Doggin94it]

22 hours ago, Matt39 said:

Oh my

FLORHAM PARK, N.J. -- The New York Jets are the only team in the common-draft era (since 1967) to draft two quarterbacks with top-three picks in a three-year span -- Sam Darnold in 2018, Zach Wilson in 2021.

Darnold, on his third team, is preparing for Super Bowl LVIII as the San Francisco 49ers' backup. Wilson is preparing for a change of address.

Repeating the pattern, the Jets are expected to trade Wilson in the coming weeks as they look to upgrade the QB2 position behind Aaron Rodgers. There's a "high probability" of that happening, general manager Joe Douglas said recently, triggering two questions:

Who's interested? What might he fetch in a trade?

ESPN reached out to three personnel executives, one scout and two assistant coaches from other teams to gauge Wilson's value. The consensus is Wilson could bring back a sixth- or seventh-round pick (or perhaps a swap of middle-round picks) from a team willing to take a chance on him as a backup due to his draft pedigree.

"Perhaps a team out there felt stronger about him pre-draft, and that could influence how they value him," one personnel executive said.

"(Otherwise), maybe they could ask for something on Day 3 -- a mid-Day 3" -- meaning a pick in the fifth/sixth-round range. The scout said the Jets could get a seventh-round pick "if they're lucky." One of the assistant coaches said, "I'd give up a two-week stay at a Best Western. I'm not a fan."

Another personnel executive suggested the Jets seek a 2025 conditional pick, based on playing time -- i.e. a fourth rounder if Wilson plays 50% of the offensive snaps. This protects them if he gets on the field and produces next season. The Jets "will never get the value they want" in a straight-up trade, the executive said.

It would be highly unusual--- and embarrassing -- if the Jets can't find a trading partner and simply release him. The last top-10 quarterback to get cut by the team that drafted him was Robert Griffin III, selected No. 2 overall in 2012 by Washington and released after four years.

Since then, the only other first-round quarterbacks to be cut by their original team were Johnny Manziel (Cleveland Browns, 22nd pick, in 2014), Paxton Lynch (Denver Broncos, 26th, 2016) and Dwayne Haskins (Washington Commanders, 15th, 2019).

Because of the demand for the position, there's usually interest in depreciated quarterbacks. They were high picks because of top-shelf traits, and some coaches like the challenge of reclamation projects.

"The only trade value for him is his arm talent, meaning he can make all the throws," the other assistant coach said of Wilson. "But the biggest thing, he has to become more mature and be consistent in everything, especially his decision making. There were flashes this year, but obviously not enough."

Replacing the injured Rodgers, Wilson went 4-7 as a starter, with eight touchdown passes, seven interceptions, 2,271 yards and a 60.1% completion rate. His Total QBR (30.6) ranked 30th out of 30 qualified passers. Over the last three seasons, he's 35th out of 36 in Total QBR, ahead of the Carolina Panthers' Bryce Young (33.3), who was a rookie in 2023.

The player drafted one spot after Wilson, quarterback Trey Lance, was traded last August for a 2024 fourth-round pick, with the 49ers sending him to the Dallas Cowboys. Unlike Wilson, who struggled consistently over three years, Lance started four games for the 49ers, allowing him to maintain at least a fraction of his value. The 49ers didn't get anything close to their original investment -- it cost them three first rounders to trade up -- but they were able to salvage something respectable because Lance wasn't a complete washout.

Typically, the value for a backup quarterback is a sixth- or seventh-round pick. Consider some of the trades in recent years:

• Nick Mullens, from the Las Vegas Raiders to Minnesota Vikings for a conditional seventh

• Jarrett Stidham, from the New England Patriots to the Raiders for a sixth

• Case Keenum, from the Browns to the Buffalo Bills for a seventh

• Joe Flacco, from the Philadelphia Eagles to the Jets for a conditional sixth

• Gardner Minshew, from the Jacksonville Jaguars to the Eagles for a conditional sixth

None of them were high draft picks. When a top pick flames out, his team usually can recoup some value. For instance: Carson Wentz was traded twice, from the Eagles to the Indianapolis Colts to the Commanders, each time fetching a Day 2 draft pick.

When the Jets dealt Darnold to the Panthers in 2021, they received three picks, including a second rounder, but he went there as the starting quarterback. No team views Wilson in that light. His salary also could be an issue for some teams. He's due to make a guaranteed $5.45 million, including a roster bonus, in the final year of his rookie contract. It could become a negotiating point in any trade talks.

Trades can't become official until March 13, the start of the league year, but agreements can be reached now. Quarterbacks have been dealt before the Super Bowl (see: Matthew Stafford and Alex Smith). Chances are, Wilson won't find a landing spot until the top end of the quarterback market is settled in March.

Potential destination?

Hall of Fame quarterback Steve Young, who met Wilson years ago through their BYU connections and became an unofficial advisor during the draft process, hopes Wilson can land with an innovative coach who can maximize his potential. The ideal spot, Young said, is the Los Angeles Rams.

"Go with Sean McVay, follow (Matthew) Stafford and just sit there and watch the magic, and see if you can pick it up," Young said on the Adam Schefter Podcast. "If you can, you can be one of the best because you have the talent for it.

In Los Angeles, Wilson would be reunited with offensive coordinator Mike LaFleur, who held the same position with the Jets in 2021 and 2022.

That relationship didn't produce results on the field, but McVay runs the show in LA.

Young also mentioned the 49ers, Vikings, Kansas City Chiefs, Green Bay Packers, Miami Dolphins, Eagles and Baltimore Ravens as quarterback-friendly offenses suited for Wilson. Based on current depth charts, the Rams, Vikings and Eagles might make the most sense because they could be in the QB2 market. Schematically, he's already familiar with the Rams and Vikings systems, both of which employ the Shanahan version of the West Coast offense.

"He needs to get to one of those spots," Young said, referring to the eight teams. "He needs to join forces. If you're going to get anything out of Zach Wilson in the future, he needs to get away from these places that aren't quarterback-friendly."

The place for him is KC. QB guru in Reid, no chance of starting and no pressure, could develop into a long term backup there

[Copernicus]

1 hour ago, maury77 said:

IMO, I think it was a variety of things.

1. The Douglas regime really struggled with drafting during the 2 Covid seasons compared to the last 2 seasons (I think McDonald breaks out next year). 

2. BYU and Wilson really manufactured that season to create favorable scenarios for Wilson. BYU handpicked opponents, Wilson consistently threw from ridiculously large pockets (thus hiding his struggles dealing with pressure that were evident in his tape from prior seasons), he had the arm talent to throw from different angles ala Rodgers and Mahomes and Wilson overwhelmingly benefited from throwing jump balls to his receivers, who would beat out far inferior CBs to come down with the reception.

It all looked cool on highlights, but I kept beating the drum that none of what Wilson was doing was going to be replicable in the NFL because the pockets are much smaller and the defensive backs are a lot better. I was right. 

I agree with much of what you stated. I just feel from the body of work we have thus far on Douglas, he is better than being duped by BYU and Wilson manufacturing a season that over the top favored Wilson. If the tape was clear that Wilson consistently threw from ridiculously large pockets hiding his struggles dealing with pressure that were evident in his tape from prior seasons, then how did Douglas not see this? IMO, Douglas seems to know what he is doing and not in over his head. So then how? Doesnt add up for  me

[The Crusher]

1 hour ago, Doggin94it said:

The place for him is KC. QB guru in Reid, no chance of starting and no pressure, could develop into a long term backup there

"9 YEARS JUST FLEW BY MAN!"

 

        - Geno Smith

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, Doggin94it said:

The place for him is KC.

Does KC have an ad contract with JetBlue?  Is KC's owner a personal friend of Mr. Neeleman?

Gotta ask the important questions man.

[Matt39]

32 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Does KC have an ad contract with JetBlue?  Is KC's owner a personal friend of Mr. Neeleman?

Gotta ask the important questions man.

Reid is a BYU alum which is the connection there. I think it’s 50-50 he retires though. 

[Warfish]

36 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Reid is a BYU alum which is the connection there. 

Is there any other religion where you would make a similar claim, or just Mormonism?

36 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

I think it’s 50-50 he retires though. 

Why?  Has he given any indication of that?  

[Matt39]

19 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Is there any other religion where you would make a similar claim, or just Mormonism?

Why?  Has he given any indication of that?  

What? They’re both alumni. Are you familiar how alumni networks work? That’s why people are connecting him there. 

[Dcat]

Look,  it's time to accept it.  Zach Wilson is one of the top colossal busts in Jets franchise history, if not THE all-time Jets bust.  And when you think of some of the others, that is one amazing accomplishment.  

JD is either a freaking dorkbrain for keeping him around or they did so just to save money from getting a viable backup.  Using him as backup was flat out negligent, stupid and should have been a fireable offense.   

[Warfish]

2 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

That’s why people are connecting him there. 

I'm sure their mutual Mormonism played no part whatsoever in what "people" are saying.

[Matt39]

2 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I'm sure their mutual Mormonism played no part whatsoever in what "people" are saying.

You’d have to ask them I guess. Reid and Steve Young are tight I believe. 

[Warfish]

5 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

You’d have to ask them I guess. Reid and Steve Young are tight I believe. 

I get a feeling you believe all Mormons are "tight" with each other, Matt.  

[Matt39]

Just now, Warfish said:

I get a feeling you believe all Mormons are "tight" with each other, Matt.  

Are you feeling ok today? 

[maury77]

2 hours ago, Copernicus said:

I agree with much of what you stated. I just feel from the body of work we have thus far on Douglas, he is better than being duped by BYU and Wilson manufacturing a season that over the top favored Wilson. If the tape was clear that Wilson consistently threw from ridiculously large pockets hiding his struggles dealing with pressure that were evident in his tape from prior seasons, then how did Douglas not see this? IMO, Douglas seems to know what he is doing and not in over his head. So then how? Doesnt add up for  me

The issue with Fields for some teams was his epilepsy and whether it would affect his career (this is according to Benjamin Albright). That may have factored into the decision to rate Wilson over Fields. 

Or sometimes people just make bad decisions. San Francisco (1 of the best organizations in the league IMO) picked Trey Lance at 3 and he flamed out even worse than Zach. 

[Hael]

40 minutes ago, Dcat said:

Look,  it's time to accept it.  Zach Wilson is one of the top colossal busts in Jets franchise history, if not THE all-time Jets bust.  And when you think of some of the others, that is one amazing accomplishment.  

JD is either a freaking dorkbrain for keeping him around or they did so just to save money from getting a viable backup.  Using him as backup was flat out negligent, stupid and should have been a fireable offense.   

First paragraph is definitely true.   It was also predictable b/c despite all the puff pieces and fan gaslighting, his college tape showed pretty major problems right from the getgo (and they were pointed out by many people).   

As far as JD is concerned.  He had a pretty nasty choice in that draft.  It was essentially a draft where the team couldn’t afford not to take a qb (im pretty sure there would have been a revolution if we picked D), but it was known to be essentially a 1 qb draft (and a bunch of late 1st round stretch talents like Fields) and early day 2 safe picks (Mac Jones etc).  Desperation and the media gaslit a bunch of people into overvaluing the remaining qbs and so we were left with the sad choice of picking one well outside their value range.

The right play of course with hindsight would have been to trade out of the 2nd and pick sure value (like getting Penei Sewell and eventually a qb like Mills on day 2), but I don’t think that sort of pick would have made sense given where we were.   It made sense to gamble on a qb and it was indeed the perfect time to do that (right at the start of a rebuild).   And sometimes you just have to take a swing.  So I will never begrudge Douglas for making the pick, even if I kinda knew that it wasn’t going to work out.

[bitonti]

36 minutes ago, Hael said:

So I will never begrudge Douglas for making the pick, even if I kinda knew that it wasn’t going to work out.

I will. Zach wilson is the worst 

There were almost infinite better choices at the time and the knock on effect is trading for Aaron Rodgers 100 mil for 4 plays 

We're talking about the worst draft pick in Jets history followed by the worst trade in Jets history 

[bitonti]

13 hours ago, Warfish said:

If so, then surely you have another similar example from NFL history....right?

If that's how the world really works, surely Zach Wilson and Woody aren't unique, are they?

It depends on how broadly we define what happened here.

Can I think of another time that a wealthy qb went 2 overall to become the face of a franchise because his uncle and team owner are friends and business partners? No I can't you got me there.

But if we're talking about insiders in the NFL hooking up their friends with jobs when there are better candidates available it happens on a daily basis at every level. There are a hundred other guys who can hold a clipboard. But the jobs always seem to go to someone's brother in law and that's the NFL 

It's corruption and cronyism run amok. And also incompetence sure 

Because it's not a meritocracy that's where incompetence breeds 

The Jets are the worst at this by the way. It's all Aaron's friends and what not. 

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

10 minutes ago, bitonti said:

I will. Zach wilson is the worst 

There were almost infinite better choices at the time and the knock on effect is trading for Aaron Rodgers 100 mil for 4 plays 

We're talking about the worst draft pick in Jets history followed by the worst trade in Jets history 

The #2 overall pick is such a significant investment.

The opportunity cost on missing on a player that high is massive, especially when you consider Sewell is like the #1 OL in the league and Chase is also arguably the top WR in football.

[Matt39]

2 minutes ago, bitonti said:

It depends on how broadly we define what happened here.

Can I think of another time that a wealthy qb went 2 overall to become the face of a franchise because his uncle and team owner are friends and business partners? No I can't you got me there.

But if we're talking about insiders in the NFL hooking up their friends with jobs when there are better candidates available it happens on a daily basis at every level. There are a hundred other guys who can hold a clipboard. But the jobs always seem to go to someone's brother in law and that's the NFL 

It's Cronyism run amok 

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/1891163-rgiiis-stubbornness-and-his-fathers-interference-bedevil-shanahan-redskins.amp.html
 

not the same, but somewhat relevant. A LaFleur coaching the owners pet too hard in there too

[bitonti]

2 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

A LaFleur coaching the owners pet too hard in there too

How does Adam gase get the hc job? Peyton Manning calls the Jets and what do you know gase is a HC. 

Rex Ryan is buddy's son 

Nathaniel Hackett is Paul's son 

Saleh is Matt LeFleurs best man 

Cobby is Aaron's friend 

It goes on and on 

At this point we're numb to all the connections. 

10 minutes ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

The opportunity cost on missing on a player that high is massive

The dopes running this team don't understand opportunity cost, sunk cost or the value of a dollar 

[bla bla bla]

23 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Yep.  And this is the part that some people aren’t factoring in.  Trading team needs to hand over a pick AND devote $5.5M to a QB3.  

It’s not improbable to imagine all 31 teams telling us to kick rocks on a trade and wait for JD to cut Zach instead.  

Jets can opt to pay the roster bonus, the other team would have him for $1m then. I could see that being what ends up happening

[Warfish]

33 minutes ago, bitonti said:

It depends on how broadly we define what happened here.

Can I think of another time that a wealthy qb went 2 overall to become the face of a franchise because his uncle and team owner are friends and business partners? No I can't you got me there.

But if we're talking about insiders in the NFL hooking up their friends with jobs when there are better candidates available it happens on a daily basis at every level. There are a hundred other guys who can hold a clipboard. But the jobs always seem to go to someone's brother in law and that's the NFL 

I would say there is a pretty huge gulf between these two scenarios Bit.

Hiring a position coach you know, are comfortable with, and have worked with before (or come recommended by people you trust or have worked with before), rather than a theoretically "better" position coach out there in the universe, I'd agree, that happens all the time.  Not sure I'd call that "cronyism", especially since it happens at every business, everywhere, every day.  People often like to work with others who they've worked with before, have former professional (or personal) relationships with, and/or have proven themselves working with them in the past, i.e. trust.  Rarely are they hiring that person only because of friendship, people don't sink their careers just for that generally.

That's a universe apart from drafting at #2 a supposed franchise QB who is really only being drafted because he is the nephew of the long-age former CEO of an advertising contract partner, and an acquaintance of the Owner, and doing so against the will of that teams Head Coach and GM and Scouts, and forcing the staff to start that QB for multiple years against their will.....

33 minutes ago, bitonti said:

It's corruption and cronyism run amok. And also incompetence sure 

Because it's not a meritocracy that's where incompetence breeds 

The Jets are the worst at this by the way. It's all Aaron's friends and what not. 

I am sure, in whatever business you run or work at/manage at, you never, ever work or choose to work with anyone you know, or have worked with before, and that you competitively bid out via IFB every single aspect to ensure only the truly deserving get that work/role Bit.  Right?

:end sarcasm:

The old adage that "its not who you are, it's who you know" absolutely is a thing in the working world.  Successful and/or pleasant and/or effective previous experience biases everyone.  But that has limits, few CEO's are going to willfully sink their business for the tenuous and pre-existing relationships that exist in this supposed Woody-Neeleman-JetBlue theory.

A Ballboy, sure.  An office drone, absolutely.  Starting QB on the NY Jets for multiple years, for not even the son but nephew of a guy Woody could buy 20 times over without breaking a sweat and who holds no power over the Jets ad relationship with JetBlue?  Yeah, sorry, not buying it.  

[Warfish]

By the way Bit, since you've reference Hanlon's Razor, I'll remind you of a few others:

Sagan Standard: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

You do not have extraordinary evidence to support the extraordinary claim that an NFL Owner would engage in such an unprecedented and self-destructive move for such an unprecedented and thin reason/relationship.

Popper's falsifiability principle: For a theory to be considered scientific, it must be falsifiable.

Your Woody-Neeleman theory, as it has been presented, is not falsifiable.  There is no evidence you would accept to disprove it, and you've consistently ignored evididence or facts that do not support your belief thus far.

Hitchens's razor: That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Which allows me to dismiss your conspiracy theory for lack of actual evidence.  The thin circumstantial facts you string together to create it do not rise to evidence of anything more than creative writing.  As with most conspiracy theories.

Hume's guillotine: "If the cause, assigned for any effect, be not sufficient to produce it, we must either reject that cause, or add to it such qualities as will give it a just proportion to the effect."

i.e. there is simply not remotely enough tangible, demonstrable return on a "only draft and play Wilson for a friend" idea to justify the effect such a move would/has have/had.  It may have played a small part in the initial decision, but it was never the driving force behind the decision at any stage.

Warfish's Razor:  Never presume of others actions, motivations or behaviors you, or other average people, would never ever contemplate or think to engage in if you were in their place. 

Unless you, or any normal/average person, would do/consider doing the thing you are presuming if you were in their place, the odds are quite low that the person you're presuming it of would do it either.  

[Sperm Edwards]

On 2/6/2024 at 1:19 PM, bitonti said:

Woody doesn't need money but he gets real money in the deal with JetBlue every year

we can talk about how this agreement was around for a while or how Zach's uncle isn't controlling the JetBlue corporation anymore but end of the day they are the 2nd biggest sponsor of the Jets beside MetLife and drafting Zach (and treating him as a scholarship player) helps that relationship  

How exactly does Zach Wilson help Woody make money from JetBlue? And I mean real money -- enough to force-feed an otherwise-unwanted QB onto his $5BN team. MetLife pays BOTH teams $16MM/year - $8MM apiece - for the naming rights. JetBlue's agreement is for far, far less. 

 

Zach Wilson has no ties to JetBlue. They're not based in Utah or anything. BTW JetBlue also sponsors all things Boston sports: Pats, Sox, Celtics, Bruins, the marathon, and more. Been that way since 2008 (longer than their relationship with the Jets, which began in late '09). Also the Nets, too, and they used to sponsor the Dodgers. Their agreement with the Pats runs through 2030. They bought the naming rights for the Sawx's practice facility "JetBlue Park at Fenway South" and more. 

So lmao that Jetblue has some singular relationship with the Jets, let alone that anyone at JetBlue gives a crap who the Jets draft any more than they care who the Pats draft -- and if they did the last thing it'd be is because Zach is the nephew of the guy they kicked out of his own company ~15 years ago (a reminder of the founder they eagerly and publicly dumped). 

Or maybe it's favors, as you mention -- like, Zachy's uncle will put in a good word let multi-billionaire Woody into the millionaire's club.

[Sperm Edwards]

Also if they can get another team to eat the guaranteed $5.5MM final year of Zach's rookie contract they should take any draft pick they can get, including something as insignificant as swapping our high 7th for someone else's late/compensatory 6th.

If Douglas can get more, power to him.

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, bla bla bla said:

Jets can opt to pay the roster bonus, the other team would have him for $1m then. I could see that being what ends up happening

I guess, but we need cap space nearly as much as we need draft capital, so would that really be worth it for either side of the deal?

[Alka]

On 2/6/2024 at 9:46 AM, doitny said:

a 6th or a 7th is about right. and to think some of you thought 2nd or 3rd..lol

I didn't see anyone thinking he could fetch a 2nd or 3rd round pick.  I was hopeful that someone would give up a 4th round pick for him, but it seems that that ship has sailed.

[bitonti]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

I would say there is a pretty huge gulf between these two scenarios Bit.

That's a universe apart from drafting at #2 a supposed franchise QB  

This is the crux of the disagreement I don't think Neeleman saying to Woody "hey draft my nephew" isn't that different then Peyton Manning saying to Chris "Hey hire Adam Gase." 

Just because the world and NFL works this way doesn't mean it's the optimal way for the world to work 

It's not a great way to run a football team, i think the results speak for themselves with the Jets 

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Sagan Standard: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

What's so extraordinary about pointing out the relationship between Zach and Neeleman? What do you want the 23 and me? 

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Popper's falsifiability principle: For a theory to be considered scientific, it must be falsifiable.

I never said my theory was scientific

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Hitchens's razor: That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

I've submitted evidence like the JetBlue charter jet you are the one refusing to admit any evidence

You're all like "Oh you want me to Charter a Jet? No problem I can have an airbus 350 here by 3:30pm. I can get you a toe there are ways dude"  

when does that happen. When do major airlines charter entire planes for people they have no connection with? 

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Hume's guillotine: "If the cause, assigned for any effect, be not sufficient to produce it, we must either reject that cause, or add to it such qualities as will give it a just proportion to the effect."

I'll be honest I barely understand this one. But this next statement appears you know deep down Zach didn't deserve to go 2

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

It may have played a small part in the initial decision, but it was never the driving force behind the decision at any stage.

the initial decision to commit 24 mil and 2 overall draft capital becomes the driving force behind the next 3 years of decisions. Let's not pretend like the Jets can just walk away from Zach without experiencing pain. They still can't. 

I don't even get what your position is?

Zach just happened to go 2 because of Covid and everyone at 1JD is incompetent and he just happened to start 30 games, why? because he earned it? 

They are just dumb dummies is that where you stand with Zach? They could have picked anyone in the country besides Trevor Lawrence and they just happened to pick Zach, why? Because they are dumb? 

Or how about this. I'll grant the JetBlue Connection was meaningless for the sake of argument. Can you at least admit Woody fell in love with the idea of Zach a person who looks a certain way believes certain things and is "the type of person" Woody wants as the face of his team? 

Let's not pretend he hasn't done this before. With Tebow, Favre, and after Zach, with Rodgers. Woody doesn't care about wins and losses as long as the team makes money and he gets to advance his particular world view that Max doesn't want us talking about 

there can be no connection between Neeleman and Johnson at all no connection between Neeleman and JetBlue and at the end of the day it's Woody making a major decision because he likes the cut of a person's jib 

Joe Douglas can't make this decision on his own. He just can't. Either he dreamed up the Zach pick to sell to Woody knowing Woody would love it or Woody came down from on high and demanded Zach. There's no NFL Scouting reason for Zach wilson to go 2 and you don't have any evidence to prove the Eagles the Niners or any other team was really interested

one major piece of evidence Daniel Jeremiah had linked the Jets to Zach Wilson before the CFB playoffs in January - DJ knows the Jets better than anyone and the Jets usually don't leak their pick (who knew they were taking Sauce) it had to come from Team Wilson. Most likely the Wilson camp knew they were going high 4 months before the draft. That's circumstantial but the idea that DJ is dumb and everyone is dumb and that tape against coastal Carolina fooled everyone doesn't hold water. And it was months before the pro day. He never ran he never lifted he never did agility drills there was no reason for Zach to go 2. 

Just like there's no reason for a famous politician's son to get in to Harvard. It's all about who you know we agree on that I just think it's a terrible way to run a football team. 

 

[Beerfish]

What ever team gets him it will be worth he risk for a very late pick or as a Fa if he gets cut.

A #3 QB who has been pretty bad so far but has some experience and some physical ability?   Bargain.

[#27TheDominator]

13 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

What ever team gets him it will be worth he risk for a very late pick or as a Fa if he gets cut.

A #3 QB who has been pretty bad so far but has some experience and some physical ability?   Bargain.

Eh.  $5.5M for Zach seems kind of similar to $8M for Cook.  

[Beerfish]

20 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Eh.  $5.5M for Zach seems kind of similar to $8M for Cook.  

A young 25 - 26 year old guy with p[possible upside at Qb is better money spent than a past it RB.

As we saw this past year there is such a total lack of back up or 3rd sting guys in this league prudent teams will invest an extra million or so there.

Of course if you are team with the jets mindset you totally give up on the year after 4 snaps.

[Warfish]

39 minutes ago, bitonti said:

This is the crux of the disagreement I don't think Neeleman saying to Woody "hey draft my nephew" isn't that different then Peyton Manning saying to Chris "Hey hire Adam Gase." 

Yup, I think that's a massive difference.  Not remotely the same or equal.

39 minutes ago, bitonti said:

It's not a great way to run a football team, i think the results speak for themselves with the Jets 

However the Jets have been run under Woody, it's clearly not working.

39 minutes ago, bitonti said:

What's so extraordinary about pointing out the relationship between Zach and Neeleman?

Nothing.

Extrapolating that to "Woody overruled JD to draft Zach as a favor to Neeleman" is the extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.

39 minutes ago, bitonti said:

I've submitted evidence like the JetBlue charter jet you are the one refusing to admit any evidence

when does that happen. When do major airlines charter entire planes for people they have no connection with?

Literally all the time.  For money.  

39 minutes ago, bitonti said:

But this next statement appears you know deep down Zach didn't deserve to go 2

I didn't.  My posting history on that at the time is....extensive, lol.

39 minutes ago, bitonti said:

I don't even get what your position is?

Zach just happened to go 2 because of Covid and everyone at 1JD is incompetent and he just happened to start 30 games, why? because he earned it?

Zach went #2 because he was widely considered the 2nd best prospect in that draft class.  Not by just the Jets, but by the media, by other teams, by scouts, by most of our own fans,  etc.  The Jets interest does not carry the power to make all those other entities agree.

JD, as JD does, went with a by the numbers pick.  He took no risk, he took what he was expected to take.  He, and MLF, liked Zach alot.

He started Zach year one because that's most often what NFL teams do nowadays.

He started Zach year 2 because, despite his poor play, that's ALSO what most NFL teams do with #2 overall pick QB's.  They also benched him for not one but three other QB's to play instead.  

He tried his damndest to replace Zach for year three and would have succeeded if not for Rodgers injury.

And now he's all but guaranteed he's trading/cutting him before year 4.

This is pretty par-for-the-course for a bust NFL QB picked that high Bit.  This is hardly unique in NFL history.   It's the norm.

39 minutes ago, bitonti said:

They are just dumb dummies is that where you stand with Zach?

JD is a very poor GM in my estimation, and is responsible for the Zach Wilson pick, yes.

39 minutes ago, bitonti said:

They could have picked anyone in the country besides Trevor Lawrence and they just happened to pick Zach, why? Because they are dumb? 

Because Zach was widely considered the #2 prospect.  A fact well documented at that time, that you for some odd reason choose to ignore.

39 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Or how about this. I'll grant the JetBlue Connection was meaningless for the sake of argument. Can you at least admit Woody fell in love with the idea of Zach a person who looks a certain way believes certain things and is "the type of person" Woody wants as the face of his team? 

Replace Woody with JD, and I'd agree to a point. 

I have no earthly idea why you're implying with the racist sounding "type of person" stuff honestly.  

39 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Let's not pretend he hasn't done this before. With Tebow, Favre, and after Zach, with Rodgers.

Tebow maybe.  Favre, I doubt, that was the GM at the time. 

Rodgers was all JD, trying to save his own ass.

39 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Woody doesn't care about wins and losses

The old fan meme of "I care more about wins than our Owner does, rich people suck!".  Got it, lol.

39 minutes ago, bitonti said:

.....and he gets to advance his particular world view that Max doesn't want us talking about......

....

39 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Joe Douglas can't make this decision on his own. He just can't.

The REAL crux of our disagreement:  You don't believe our GM is actually our GM, you think Woody is acting, a la Dallas and Snyder-led Washington, as his own GM.

I don't believe that at all.

39 minutes ago, bitonti said:

There's no NFL Scouting reason for Zach wilson to go 2 and you don't have any evidence to prove the Eagles the Niners or any other team was really interested

You'll have to take that one up with literally the entire sports media and scouting community and a goodly portion of this fanbase Bit. 

Not me.  I certainly didn't rank him #2 overall.

39 minutes ago, bitonti said:

one major piece of evidence Daniel Jeremiah had linked the Jets to Zach Wilson before the CFB playoffs in January - DJ knows the Jets better than anyone and the Jets usually don't leak their pick (who knew they were taking Sauce) it had to come from Team Wilson.

Why did it have to come from Wilson?  Everyone on earth knew who the #1 pick would be.  Leaks from inside Jets land would do no harm whatsoever.  

39 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Most likely the Wilson camp knew they were going high 4 months before the draft. That's circumstantial

Everything you have is circumstantial.  

39 minutes ago, bitonti said:

....there was no reason for Zach to go 2.

You seem obsessed with this idea, as if your (or my) opinion should be dictate and agreed upon by all.  Sorry to break it to you Bit, but the vast majority didn't agree with us on Zach at that time, same way the vast majority didn't agree with me on Sam Darnold at that time either.  I don't need to invent a conspiracy around Sam Darnold (and his dark and shadowy ties to the Marlboro man!) to know that often the majority get it wrong, for some rather frequently repeated reasons.  

At this point I think I'm done, fun tho this was.  We've both more than had our fair say, and we're kicking well-trod territory at this stage.

[#27TheDominator]

41 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

A young 25 - 26 year old guy with p[possible upside at Qb is better money spent than a past it RB.

As we saw this past year there is such a total lack of back up or 3rd sting guys in this league prudent teams will invest an extra million or so there.

Of course if you are team with the jets mindset you totally give up on the year after 4 snaps.

Simple fact is that Cook and Zach will be on one year deals.  Age is basically irrelevant.  The Jets gave up the season after 4 snaps, but you think that giving that $5.5M is prudent?  Give up a late pick for the privilege?  The fact is Cook is a has been.  Zach is a never was.

[Beerfish]

7 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Simple fact is that Cook and Zach will be on one year deals.  Age is basically irrelevant.  The Jets gave up the season after 4 snaps, but you think that giving that $5.5M is prudent?  The fact is Cook is a has been.  Zach is a never was.

Zach is a 25 year old bust drafted by the crappy new york jets who are a joke coaching and scheme wise.

He was also highly rated by a LOT of teams in his draft year, he was not some massive reach only by  the Jets.

Teams look at players, look at cost and if it is cheap enough they will take on a redemption project.

Trey Lance has shown as little or less than Wilson and Dallas jumped at picking him up at low cost to be their #3 project QB.

Both coaches and GMs are notorious for always thinking they know better.  Some team will pick him up dirt cheap as their #3 guy and be happy they did at least until they see what he is in their own minds.

[#27TheDominator]

1 hour ago, Beerfish said:

Zach is a 25 year old bust drafted by the crappy new york jets who are a joke coaching and scheme wise.

He was also highly rated by a LOT of teams in his draft year, he was not some massive reach only by  the Jets.

Teams look at players, look at cost and if it is cheap enough they will take on a redemption project.

Trey Lance has shown as little or less than Wilson and Dallas jumped at picking him up at low cost to be their #3 project QB.

Both coaches and GMs are notorious for always thinking they know better.  Some team will pick him up dirt cheap as their #3 guy and be happy they did at least until they see what he is in their own minds.

Trey Lance can run and at least be a package QB.  He was also expected to take some time to develop.  Most importantly, Dallas "jumped at picking him up" when he had well more than a season left on his deal.  This hypothetical team is going to trade for Zach, pay him $5.5M and "redeem him" so that he can become an unrestricted free agent in 2025.  Unless you think they are going to go the Darnold route and exercise the option.  There is no team picking him up as a #3 project QB and agreeing to pay him $23M for 2025, so I don't see it.