Same Old Chad

[bitonti]

How did Chad look taking over for an injured Vinny T in Jaxonville in 2002?

Did he get judged by that one game?

Yes. he looked like he had some promise. He looked like he knew sorta what he was doing out there. They didn't win but they outscored Jax in the second half, if memory serves.

Clemens looked like a kid who got lost between the sandbox and the ice cream truck. He sucks nuts right now. Maybe 5 years from now a light will go on but he looked like he was doing his best Brooks Bollinger impression to me.

[SoFlaJets]

It is possible. I hope against hope, that they do not have the tendency to be afraid to make a move. From what I have witnessed thus far, I don't think they are.

More than anything, I have to trust that they have the pulse of this team. Trust me, the TEAM will know before anyone else when it feels is the right time to make a switch. They see the players in practice and the meeting room.

It is a tough call for the coach. Make a switch to soon, before the team feels it is right, you lose their heart. Make it too late, and you lose their respect.

This is one of those things where a fan has to have trust, if you believe in your coaching staff.

it's gonna be real hard to do SD after what CP did in GB-it would be seen as over-reacting by the team I'm sure...I say he gets another week at least unless Mangini decides to throw him on the injured list-that is the best hope for all who would like to see Clemens (who looks way too small to me) get a shot

[Scott Dierking]

I wasn't talking about Clemens' potential as a rookie; I meant his potential in general. And he may be the worst thing in the world.

At 7-5 you can't bench your starting QB coming off a good game (no matter how hapless the opponents he just beat were).

The alternative may not be the answer either. Fine. Then you move on to option 3, whatever that may be at the time. But I'm pretty confident option #1 right now isn't the answer & he's making my point for me with his usual play vs teams that know his game.

He's not one of the 5 worst QB's in the league. But he's closer to that than he is to the top-5 best. And with the emergence & growth of some of the younger & less experienced QB's in the league (Leinart/Cutler/Young/A.Smith/Campbell/Garrard/etc) this will only become more apparent next year.

Our passing game will never stretch the field vs non-doormats with Chad.

Our running game will not have any room to run vs non-doormats with Chad.

Our WR's with the speed to beat a secondary will not be given the opportunity vs non-doormats with Chad.

Those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it.

Option THREE may not be on the team right now.

Option TWO may not be a palpable option for them, whatever the reason.

I hate to keep saying it, but there is an amount of trust that we as fans need to have, It is a hard thing to give, particularly with a franchise with this track record, but you hgave to give Mangini a certain amount of rope.

Whether that is truly slack, or it creates a noose, is up to them. I think they get the gimme to work their way out of this own their own.

Fans are smart, but we don't have all the necessary criteria.

[BP]

Yes. he looked like he had some promise. He looked like he knew sorta what he was doing out there. They didn't win but they outscored Jax in the second half, if memory serves.

Clemens looked like a kid who got lost between the sandbox and the ice cream truck. He sucks nuts right now. Maybe 5 years from now a light will go on but he looked like he was doing his best Brooks Bollinger impression to me.

Clemens came in with 2 minutes left in the game..you can not possibly judge him on that.Chad played the entire second half in that game and was horrible..Hermy even threw him under the bus for throwing an INT.

[Sperm Edwards]

Option THREE may not be on the team right now.

Option TWO may not be a palpable option for them, whatever the reason.

I hate to keep saying it, but there is an amount of trust that we as fans need to have, It is a hard thing to give, particularly with a franchise with this track record, but you hgave to give Mangini a certain amount of rope.

Whether that is truly slack, or it creates a noose, is up to them. I think they get the gimme to work their way out of this own their own.

Fans are smart, but we don't have all the necessary criteria.

That was exactly my point about both "option two" AND "option three" Scott. You & I agree more than you realize.

Clemens must suck horribly in practice to still be #3 behind Ramsey. And for Ramsey to still be #2 behind Chad.

Also agree with keeping Chad in there yesterday & even next week as well. You don't tell the players on a team with a winning record & a shot at he playoffs that they are officially in rebuilding & "see what we've got for next year" mode with 3 games left. Your synopsis of the message it sends to the team with pulling Chad too early or too late was spot-on.

[#27TheDominator]

Clemens came in with 2 minutes left in the game..you can not possibly judge him on that.Chad played the entire second half in that game and was horrible..Hermy even threw him under the bus for throwing an INT.

Even? You say that like throwing people under the bus wasn't his usual MO.

[PFSIKH]

Clemens came in with 2 minutes left in the game..you can not possibly judge him on that.Chad played the entire second half in that game and was horrible..Hermy even threw him under the bus for throwing an INT.

Exactly.

If Brady's first appearance in a blowout Thangsgivings Day loss to the Lions was any inidcation of his future, he would be an Arena Football League QB like many Jets' fans predicted.

Brady was 1-3 for like three yards and one pass, a short out, skipped to the receiver.

[Scott Dierking]

That was exactly my point about both "option two" AND "option three" Scott. You & I agree more than you realize.

Clemens must suck horribly in practice to still be #3 behind Ramsey. And for Ramsey to still be #2 behind Chad.

Also agree with keeping Chad in there yesterday & even next week as well. You don't tell the players on a team with a winning record & a shot at he playoffs that they are officially in rebuilding & "see what we've got for next year" mode with 3 games left. Your synopsis of the message it sends to the team with pulling Chad too early or too late was spot-on.

SE-This is the most challanging decision this staff will make, and it will be one that decides their future, at least a partners with this franchise.

As such, they should be afforded the luxury of making the call on their own, without the benefit of knee-jerk fan reaction.

That is a lot to give up as a fan, I realize.

But the thread of thought that we can "just throw Clemens in there" and there are not bad consequences that can be associated with that move, is an inaccurate one.

You don't get "do-overs" in decision making in the league of the NFL. And this is one of the most important decisions, and it is one of the January and February variety right now.

I think they really need to see where option ONE is at this point. And that means playing option ONE through its entire paces. I can't argue with that.

[Maxman]

Chad is a known quantity. With 50 starts under his belt he has proven to be an average QB. Not the problem most definitely. Maybe not the answer either.

I think he would actually be better next year. Stronger running game. A year of being healthy under his belt. A normal offseason for him (i.e. no surgery).

All I am saying is that these games don't matter. This team is not winning the Super Bowl this year. They should look at the bigger picture and get Kellen some work.

Now if Kellen is laying an egg in practice that is a different story. From what I am told though, that is not the case. They still hold Kellen in high regard. Granted this offense is not an easy one to run. Lots of motion, lots of changes at the line. Kellen will not master all of it yet. Wouldn't be the end of the world to let him play a bit though.

[Scott Dierking]

Chad is a known quantity. With 50 starts under his belt he has proven to be an average QB. Not the problem most definitely. Maybe not the answer either.

I think he would actually be better next year. Stronger running game. A year of being healthy under his belt. A normal offseason for him (i.e. no surgery).

All I am saying is that these games don't matter. This team is not winning the Super Bowl this year. They should look at the bigger picture and get Kellen some work.

Now if Kellen is laying an egg in practice that is a different story. From what I am told though, that is not the case. They still hold Kellen in high regard. Granted this offense is not an easy one to run. Lots of motion, lots of changes at the line. Kellen will not master all of it yet. Wouldn't be the end of the world to let him play a bit though.

And Max, you, as coach of this team are going to call Pete Kendall, Andre Dyson, etc. into your office and tell them, "Well, even though I know your careers are short, and I realize we are on the cusp of the playoffs, but you know what guys, we are just not winning the Super Bowl this year. No matter what I said about one game at a time, we are just not of that ilk. Sorry about the hard work that we preached to each of you and what that could led you to, but I am pulling the plug"

You really want to give that speech? And then have the club take you with a modecum of respect and integrity when you come back and say the same things next year?

There is a little bit more to it than just pulling a switch

[LionelRichie]

That was exactly my point about both "option two" AND "option three" Scott. You & I agree more than you realize.

Clemens must suck horribly in practice to still be #3 behind Ramsey. And for Ramsey to still be #2 behind Chad.

Also agree with keeping Chad in there yesterday & even next week as well. You don't tell the players on a team with a winning record & a shot at he playoffs that they are officially in rebuilding & "see what we've got for next year" mode with 3 games left. Your synopsis of the message it sends to the team with pulling Chad too early or too late was spot-on.

clemens was moved up to #2 for yesterday's game so he is obviously showing something in practice. i am tired of pennington and know that he is not the answer @ QB. the question becomes what to do about it. there are a few problems with starting clemens right now:

1. mangini will lose the trust of the players by not "starting the players that give the jets the best chance to win" . this has been his mantra since day 1 and right now chad > clemens

2. why not give clemens 1 more off-season to learn the offense and the no-huddle? how does this hurt?

[Jet27]

SE-This is the most challanging decision this staff will make, and it will be one that decides their future, at least a partners with this franchise.

As such, they should be afforded the luxury of making the call on their own, without the benefit of knee-jerk fan reaction.

That is a lot to give up as a fan, I realize.

But the thread of thought that we can "just throw Clemens in there" and there are not bad consequences that can be associated with that move, is an inaccurate one.

You don't get "do-overs" in decision making in the league of the NFL. And this is one of the most important decisions, and it is one of the January and February variety right now.

I think they really need to see where option ONE is at this point. And that means playing option ONE through its entire paces. I can't argue with that.

Guys, I truly want to agree with you guys and say Chad is the Best QB in the organization and that the other two guys are not worth their salt. But how many times have playoff contending teams pulled a struggling QB from the game and put an up start in their just to change the pace....???? The answer.... it has always happened, thats the NFL.

As I said before the Jets are hamstrung because of the dollar's they threw at Penny. And as a business they need to get something back from their investment. If they pull Penny now...it proves that they made a mistake (and as long as Penny has his moments of good play) it prolongs the orgnaization of coming to what (regardless of if you want to say it or not) that Penny is NOT the answer. As long as we are hanging around the 6th playoff seed the organization does not have to make that tuff call. Again, plenty of teams (remember Parcells and the Giants with Sims???) have pulled their struggling QB during a game when they were down some points....being down 31-13...Klemens should have gotten the call. At least that would have shown me that the organization does not play favorites (i.e. benching of defensive and certain ofensive players) and are serious about the here and now jnot some pie in the sky crap we keep hereing about it's a process. What *&*king process....waiting for Chad after being in the league 7 years now...come on. Look at the Broncos for crying out loud....they lost yesterday but they pulled a QB like Plumber (whose had much more positives than Penny!!!!!!)

I say ok start Chad next week (in doors no less) and then lets see what his post game commentary will be then. With my idea....start Chad and if he sucks, you pull him and tell him to get his ^&*king head together and start being a leader.

[#27TheDominator]

Chad is a known quantity. With 50 starts under his belt he has proven to be an average QB. Not the problem most definitely. Maybe not the answer either.

I think he would actually be better next year. Stronger running game. A year of being healthy under his belt. A normal offseason for him (i.e. no surgery).

All I am saying is that these games don't matter. This team is not winning the Super Bowl this year. They should look at the bigger picture and get Kellen some work.

Now if Kellen is laying an egg in practice that is a different story. From what I am told though, that is not the case. They still hold Kellen in high regard. Granted this offense is not an easy one to run. Lots of motion, lots of changes at the line. Kellen will not master all of it yet. Wouldn't be the end of the world to let him play a bit though.

I agree with this almost entirely. Laying an egg in practice and holding Clemens in high regard are not necessarily mutually exclusive. He's a rookie, they know that. He doesn't look like he sees the whole field and as you say he probably can't run the current O too effectively. He should develop those things over time. Getting him some snaps is completely different from starting him. If the guy is not ready, and he didn't look ready to me, it serves no purpose to play him extended time.

[Maxman]

I agree with this almost entirely. Laying an egg in practice and holding Clemens in high regard are not necessarily mutually exclusive. He's a rookie, they know that. He doesn't look like he sees the whole field and as you say he probably can't run the current O too effectively. He should develop those things over time. Getting him some snaps is completely different from starting him. If the guy is not ready, and he didn't look ready to me, it serves no purpose to play him extended time.

Well my official stance is just start him. See what he is all about. But if they are more comfortable giving him a few 2nd half series in each game that is reasonable. And I would gladly go along with that.

Willie Beamen used to throw up before the start of each game. After 2 starts or so he was one of the best QBs in the league. Think about it.

[Boozer76]

Yes. he looked like he had some promise. He looked like he knew sorta what he was doing out there. They didn't win but they outscored Jax in the second half, if memory serves.

Clemens looked like a kid who got lost between the sandbox and the ice cream truck. He sucks nuts right now. Maybe 5 years from now a light will go on but he looked like he was doing his best Brooks Bollinger impression to me.

Oh my god. You are friggin kidding me right? The same guy who has begged everyone to keep giving DRob time even into his 4th season is going to make a statement like this after 3 plays in garbage time in a blowout. The hypocrisy of some of you people seriously blows my mind.

Why does Chad get such a long rope around here? Why is he allowed to play like complete crap and get all the excuses? It makes me sick!!

[Jet27]

Oh my god. You are friggin kidding me right? The same guy who has begged everyone to keep giving DRob time even into his 4th season is going to make a statement like this after 3 plays in garbage time in a blowout. The hypocrisy of some of you people seriously blows my mind.

Why does Chad get such a long rope around here? Why is he allowed to play like complete crap and get all the excuses? It makes me sick!!

Hey Boozer, i agree 100% with you....

[SoFlaJets]

Well my official stance is just start him. See what he is all about. But if they are more comfortable giving him a few 2nd half series in each game that is reasonable. And I would gladly go along with that.

Willie Beamen used to throw up before the start of each game. After 2 starts or so he was one of the best QBs in the league. Think about it.

the thing that we also and the CS have to consider is the drastic change this will bring to the system.Gone will be the no-huddle and calling the game at the L.O.S..That might not be such a bad thing anyway when the calls made AT the line by Chad limit the offense no further than 20 yards down the field at best,and when some of those inside the 20 yard mark throws are tipped and intercepted or floaters (like the one to Coles on the sidelines) then what are we really sacrificing anyway?

I think if Chad doesn't have a Green Bay type performance next week in the 1st half and go into the lockerroom with a halftime lead-PLAY CLEMENS

[#27TheDominator]

Oh my god. You are friggin kidding me right? The same guy who has begged everyone to keep giving DRob time even into his 4th season is going to make a statement like this after 3 plays in garbage time in a blowout. The hypocrisy of some of you people seriously blows my mind.

Why does Chad get such a long rope around here? Why is he allowed to play like complete crap and get all the excuses? It makes me sick!!

I think you can tell something from Clemens performance. Not that he'll suck over the long haul, but he certainly didn't look ready to lead the team on a playoff push. Hell, he didn't look ready to get a first down against a prevent.

[BP]

Even? You say that like throwing people under the bus wasn't his usual MO.

To throw an unproven and inexperienced QB in his first game having significant playing time under the bus is very unusual..even for a retard like Hermy.

[Pragmatic Bus]

Someone should have told Chad that today's game wasn't that important, he may have thrown or 400 yards.

Come on Chad lovers, tell me how great Chad was today and how he had nothing to do with this loss. Face it another big game, another let down. The man has no consistency.

I'm not going to sit here after bashing Brady all morning long and pretend Chad had some great game.

The man played like absolute crap today. Deal with it

hey you were on his band wagon too i can pull out the threads(lol). i was the only one who didnt want him as our quaterback. coming out of marshal i knew the real talent was randy moss on not him. he has a good head above his torn shoulder but thats all he has.

[Barton]

any NFL team will only play as good or as bad as its QB play

yesterday the Jets' QB play was garbage.

the truly scary thing for Jets fans?

Kellen Clemens looks like a child out there. Right now looking like a waste of a 2nd round pick.

How did Drob do his 1st 16 games in his career? And you're judging Clemens on what, 4 pass attempts? Cmon bit.

[bitonti]

How did Drob do his 1st 16 games in his career? And you're judging Clemens on what, 4 pass attempts? Cmon bit.

Cmon indeed. Clemens is not ready for prime time and we all know it - or at least can figure that out by watching him yesterday. Im not ready to see the season go down the drain so we can "see what we have."

by the way it wasn't the attempts that worried me. Am i the only one who saw him hold the ball too long on two occasions, panic and take two atrocious sacks? slide down in bounds during a two minute drill? um... ok.

it was amateur hour, and if i want to see that crap i'll crank up tapes of preseason

[Maxman]

Cmon indeed. Clemens is not ready for prime time and we all know it - or at least can figure that out by watching him yesterday. Im not ready to see the season go down the drain so we can "see what we have."

by the way it wasn't the attempts that worried me. Am i the only one who saw him hold the ball too long on two occasions, panic and take two atrocious sacks? slide down in bounds during a two minute drill? um... ok.

it was amateur hour, and if i want to see that crap i'll crank up tapes of preseason

Bit --

The season down the drain? Did you see Chad yesterday? Not like we are asking Clemens to take over for Montana in his prime.

[Sperm Edwards]

Bit --

The season down the drain. Did you see Chad yesterday? Not like we are asking Clemens to take over for Montana in his prime.

potw nom

[Scott Dierking]

Bit --

The season down the drain? Did you see Chad yesterday? Not like we are asking Clemens to take over for Montana in his prime.

Football teams are not laboratory experiments where fans get to plug in players at a whim, because they think it can't hurt to experiment a little bit.

Football coaches have to make tough, gut decisions that have serious consequences not only based on W's and L's, but their abilty to coach and motivate and continue to have respect from a locker room perspective.

Coaches don't have the luxury of saying "oh well, we tried something, it didn't work". Gut decisions such as changing a qb have lost locker roooms in the past. If teh players are not on par with a decision, and that decision has dire results, it can ruin a coaches abilty to gather his team.

It is easy to say as a fan, "pull him, what do they have to lose". It is quite another thing to do it from a coaches perspective.

[Barton]

Cmon indeed. Clemens is not ready for prime time and we all know it - or at least can figure that out by watching him yesterday. Im not ready to see the season go down the drain so we can "see what we have."

by the way it wasn't the attempts that worried me. Am i the only one who saw him hold the ball too long on two occasions, panic and take two atrocious sacks? slide down in bounds during a two minute drill? um... ok.

it was amateur hour, and if i want to see that crap i'll crank up tapes of preseason

And you cant get him ready for primetime until you get his feet wet.....giving him some actual starts.

[bitonti]

And you cant get him ready for primetime until you get his feet wet.....giving him some actual starts.

here's a news flash the locker room won't accept that as a reason. Clemens hasn't been amazing in practice. The vets will see this as waving the white flag and the end result is uglier than a full season with Chad. Football is a team game you can't declare the season over during week 14 and expect it's gonna work out for the best. if you are all such Clemens fans you should root for him to take control in a better situation. If the Jets hand him the keys at this point it's possible he could fail so badly his career is over before it starts. We all saw him out there yesterday he looked like he was in too deep.

[Sperm Edwards]

here's a news flash the locker room won't accept that as a reason. Clemens hasn't been amazing in practice. The vets will see this as waving the white flag and the end result is uglier than a full season with Chad. Football is a team game you can't declare the season over during week 14 and expect it's gonna work out for the best. if you are all such Clemens fans you should root for him to take control in a better situation. If the Jets hand him the keys at this point it's possible he could fail so badly his career is over before it starts. We all saw him out there yesterday he looked like he was in too deep.

I'm not doubting it, but where did you read or hear that Clemens "hasn't been amazing" (read: sucks) in practice recently?

[Jet27]

Football teams are not laboratory experiments where fans get to plug in players at a whim, because they think it can't hurt to experiment a little bit.

Football coaches have to make tough, gut decisions that have serious consequences not only based on W's and L's, but their abilty to coach and motivate and continue to have respect from a locker room perspective.

Coaches don't have the luxury of saying "oh well, we tried something, it didn't work". Gut decisions such as changing a qb have lost locker roooms in the past. If teh players are not on par with a decision, and that decision has dire results, it can ruin a coaches abilty to gather his team.

It is easy to say as a fan, "pull him, what do they have to lose". It is quite another thing to do it from a coaches perspective.

Scott D...actually it's not easy as a true Jet fan to say pull him (if you understand football and I'm not saying you don't). However some really smart football head coaches in the past did just that and pull their struggling QB. It was done during the Jim Kelly days in Buffalo, Done in Giants land, done in Miami land (remember Jimmy Johnson???), done in Redskin land...on and on. This is the NFL guys, not a back yard league. his is a win now league when you have the opportunity, this isn't 10-15 years ago when you had the ability to build something. let's get real, I liked Chad too, but, we have the capability of winning now and our QB comes out in a big game and sucks. Thats the bottom line. All I am saying is I'll give chad 2 maybe 3 quarters in Minny and if he still has his head up his ass in that game, the head coach has got to make a change (for Chad's sake and the teams).

[PatsFanTX]

here's a news flash the locker room won't accept that as a reason. Clemens hasn't been amazing in practice. The vets will see this as waving the white flag and the end result is uglier than a full season with Chad.

I agree 100% with bit on this.

It's a different story if Clemens was lighting it up in practice like Cutler was said to be doing.

Practice sessions during the week are just as important as games for player evaluations.

Is PennyBoy the answer for the Jets? Nope.

But Mangini has to be very careful how he plays his cards on this one.

[Jet27]

I agree 100% with bit on this.

It's a different story if Clemens was lighting it up in practice like Cutler was said to be doing.

Practice sessions during the week are just as important as games for player evaluations.

Is PennyBoy the answer for the Jets? Nope.

But Mangini has to be very careful how he plays his cards on this one.

TX...I've played at the college level and let me tell you do you think for one moment that the players don't know that chad is sticking up the place?? You've got to give them alittle more credit than that. When your QB throws intercepts and fumbles away 14 points and can't LEAD, then he has lost the team. You can't give 100% when the other guy is sputtering around at 50% for whatever the reason. let's see "his" team rally around him when he shows up next week against Minny and stinks up the place. Lets see how many in the locker room will be behind him then????

[Scott Dierking]

Scott D...actually it's not easy as a true Jet fan to say pull him (if you understand football and I'm not saying you don't). However some really smart football head coaches in the past did just that and pull their struggling QB. It was done during the Jim Kelly days in Buffalo, Done in Giants land, done in Miami land (remember Jimmy Johnson???), done in Redskin land...on and on. This is the NFL guys, not a back yard league. his is a win now league when you have the opportunity, this isn't 10-15 years ago when you had the ability to build something. let's get real, I liked Chad too, but, we have the capability of winning now and our QB comes out in a big game and sucks. Thats the bottom line. All I am saying is I'll give chad 2 maybe 3 quarters in Minny and if he still has his head up his ass in that game, the head coach has got to make a change (for Chad's sake and the teams).

I DONT CARE what the situation was on other teams. This is the NEW YORK JETS 2006. Every situation is different.

This is not video games, folks.

[JETSFAN5180]

Lets see what Ramsey has to offer it cant be any worse than Chad.

[Scott Dierking]

Lets see what Ramsey has to offer it cant be any worse than Chad.

Let's pull some guy out of the stands to play CB, too. It CAN'T be worse.

[Scott Dierking]

TX...I've played at the college level and let me tell you do you think for one moment that the players don't know that chad is sticking up the place?? You've got to give them alittle more credit than that. When your QB throws intercepts and fumbles away 14 points and can't LEAD, then he has lost the team. You can't give 100% when the other guy is sputtering around at 50% for whatever the reason. let's see "his" team rally around him when he shows up next week against Minny and stinks up the place. Lets see how many in the locker room will be behind him then????

What college?