D'Brick/the question we've been dodging 2 years..

[TNJet]

Was this guy worth the 4th pick overall? Will he ever be as good as once thought? Is he a bust and should we just face it and look for another LT next year if D'brick plays like crap this year?...I say he will be better with Faneca and finally come into his own this year....thoughts?

[CoachTsurfing]

got to give him at least another year with some decent people around him. It wouldn't matter who you have next to you on the line. If they suck, you kind of suck also.

[TNJet]

got to give him at least another year with some decent people around him. It wouldn't matter who you have next to you on the line. If they suck, you kind of suck also.

agreed

[Irish Jet]

Was he worth the 4th pick? With Ngata on the board probably not.

Is he a bust? No, I think he's played fairly well so far.

[Arsis]

Was he worth the 4th pick? With Ngata on the board probably not.

Is he a bust? No, I think he's played fairly well so far.

Spot on.

[madmike1]

You better be able to pass AND run block going no 4 overall and he can't. Bust.

[bitonti]

Was he worth the 4th pick? With Ngata on the board probably not.

first off Ngata I love this player as much as anyone - but isn't a fit for the 3-4. He's a tall 4-3 DT. The Jets could use him but he's not a perfect fit. You can't take a DL top 10 and put him in a position to produce no stats, it's a terrible situation. (see drob). The expectations far exceed the production and we'd be sitting here calling Ngata a bust.

second Ngata went in the teens - Brick would have fallen one or two slots at most. There were some who said if Brick came out of school a year prior he would have been a top pick then too - a guy like that you have to take over Ngata or even Cutler. He was value and a position of dire need.

finally Brick's run blocking is highly underrated. He's actually a pretty decent run blocker and a great pass blocker. He gets left out on an island against the league's best week in and week out. Did great against Osi and Freeney. You can't just find players like Brick. Very very far from a bust. Busts don't start every game at LT from game 1 of their rookie year.

[Borgoguy]

I'll give him this year to blossom, then render my decision. Forgetting D'Brick for a second, how stellar a pick was Mangold. Think about it: That kid just steps in on day one and you don't miss the Pro Bowler he replaced. Centers are difficult to find, and Jet Brass found us a stud.

[#27TheDominator]

first off Ngata I love this player as much as anyone - but isn't a fit for the 3-4. He's a tall 4-3 DT. The Jets could use him but he's not a perfect fit. You can't take a DL top 10 and put him in a position to produce no stats, it's a terrible situation. (see drob). The expectations far exceed the production and we'd be sitting here calling Ngata a bust.

second Ngata went in the teens - Brick would have fallen one or two slots at most. There were some who said if Brick came out of school a year prior he would have been a top pick then too - a guy like that you have to take over Ngata or even Cutler. He was value and a position of dire need.

finally Brick's run blocking is highly underrated. He's actually a pretty decent run blocker and a great pass blocker. He gets left out on an island against the league's best week in and week out. Did great against Osi and Freeney. You can't just find players like Brick. Very very far from a bust. Busts don't start every game at LT from game 1 of their rookie year.

Far from a bust yes. Worth #4? I don't think so. Great pass blocker? Eh. Didn't the guy give up more than a half sack per game? Good, maybe. Just because he isn't worth #4 in hindsight doesn't mean I think he was the wrong pick, but looking back are you telling me you'd pick him at 4 again?

[bitonti]

I'll give him this year to blossom, then render my decision. Forgetting D'Brick for a second, how stellar a pick was Mangold. Think about it: That kid just steps in on day one and you don't miss the Pro Bowler he replaced. Centers are difficult to find, and Jet Brass found us a stud.

I was down in Mobile that year and the two best OL at the exhibition were Brick and Mangold. McNeill was there too, and others, and they were on a lesser tier. That was the year Brick dislocated Kiwaunka's shoulder in practice and essentially turned him from a top 10 DE to a barely first round DE. Both players are dominators.

and let me also say Mangold's rep is deserved but his job is far easier than Brick's. LT is the most valuable and hard to find position on the field other than QB.

[bitonti]

Far from a bust yes. Worth #4? I don't think so. Great pass blocker? Eh. Didn't the guy give up more than a half sack per game? Good, maybe. Just because he isn't worth #4 in hindsight doesn't mean I think he was the wrong pick, but looking back are you telling me you'd pick him at 4 again?

absolutely - and part of the reason why is there are no other obvious choices. Would the Jets be better with Vernon Davis or AJ Hawk? Not really. Saying they should have taken Cutler or Ngata is cheating because those players weren't really considered top 5 picks and would have been considered reaches at the time. That's just using hindsight.

[Borgoguy]

I was down in Mobile that year and the two best OL at the exhibition were Brick and Mangold. McNeill was there too, and others, and they were on a lesser tier. That was the year Brick dislocated Kiwaunka's shoulder in practice and essentially turned him from a top 10 DE to a barely first round DE. Both players are dominators.

and let me also say Mangold's rep is deserved but his job is far easier than Brick's. LT is the most valuable and hard to find position on the field other than QB.

I always thought center was more difficult: calling and altering the formation, snapping the ball while thinking about your upcoming blocking responsibilities, etc... No sarcasm at all, why is LT a more difficult position?

[joewilly]

I always thought center was more difficult: calling and altering the formation, snapping the ball while thinking about your upcoming blocking responsibilities, etc... No sarcasm at all, why is LT a more difficult position?

not sure its more difficult but they're exposed to one on one situations with supreme athletes more often. you just lean the wrong way & you look like a total bust for the play. a centers blocking mistakes aren't nearly as visible.

I look for much improvement this year playin next to a much better left guard.

[#27TheDominator]

absolutely - and part of the reason why is there are no other obvious choices. Would the Jets be better with Vernon Davis or AJ Hawk? Not really. Saying they should have taken Cutler or Ngata is cheating because those players weren't really considered top 5 picks and would have been considered reaches at the time. That's just using hindsight.

Yeah, I'm not sure there are more obvious choices, but I think this thread is about hindsight. People aren't going to rip anybody for saying in '06 we should have picked D'Brick. Right now he's still a work in progress. A decent player, but far from impressive.

I always thought center was more difficult: calling and altering the formation, snapping the ball while thinking about your upcoming blocking responsibilities, etc... No sarcasm at all, why is LT a more difficult position?

Center may be more cerebral, but the LT is protecting the QBs blindside. A center is bunched in the middle. There is no room to run around him. A C isn't going to have trouble with a speed rush because for the most part, not only does he have help on both sides, but the rusher doesn't have the room to try to run around him. A LT has to deal with guys trying to run around the end and taking any arc they'd like. Besides, the QB can see pressure up the middle, as can the backs and OGs who are going to chip in, if somebody gets around the LT they often have a straight shot.

[Irish Jet]

first off Ngata I love this player as much as anyone - but isn't a fit for the 3-4. He's a tall 4-3 DT. The Jets could use him but he's not a perfect fit. You can't take a DL top 10 and put him in a position to produce no stats, it's a terrible situation. (see drob). The expectations far exceed the production and we'd be sitting here calling Ngata a bust.

second Ngata went in the teens - Brick would have fallen one or two slots at most. There were some who said if Brick came out of school a year prior he would have been a top pick then too - a guy like that you have to take over Ngata or even Cutler. He was value and a position of dire need.

finally Brick's run blocking is highly underrated. He's actually a pretty decent run blocker and a great pass blocker. He gets left out on an island against the league's best week in and week out. Did great against Osi and Freeney. You can't just find players like Brick. Very very far from a bust. Busts don't start every game at LT from game 1 of their rookie year.

Ngata plays in Baltimores hybrid D which uses a lot of 3-4 fronts. At 6-4, 340 he would have been an ideal 3-4 DE.

I know he wasn't projected highly at that stage but we're talking in hindsight so I'm talking as though the draft were right now. Ngata was the player I wanted though, I was hoping we could trade down and get him.

I agree with basically everything else, although I wouldn't call him a great pass blocker yet. He's good, nothing more at this point.

[Irish Jet]

I always thought center was more difficult: calling and altering the formation, snapping the ball while thinking about your upcoming blocking responsibilities, etc... No sarcasm at all, why is LT a more difficult position?

The best pass rushers tend to be the RDE, which is matched up vs the LT. They also are generally protecting the QB's blindside, so that makes it more important. Not necessarily more difficult.

[Borgoguy]

Yeah, I'm not sure there are more obvious choices, but I think this thread is about hindsight. People aren't going to rip anybody for saying in '06 we should have picked D'Brick. Right now he's still a work in progress. A decent player, but far from impressive.

Center may be more cerebral, but the LT is protecting the QBs blindside. A center is bunched in the middle. There is no room to run around him. A C isn't going to have trouble with a speed rush because for the most part, not only does he have help on both sides, but the rusher doesn't have the room to try to run around him. A LT has to deal with guys trying to run around the end and taking any arc they'd like. Besides, the QB can see pressure up the middle, as can the backs and OGs who are going to chip in, if somebody gets around the LT they often have a straight shot.

Thanks for your response. You nailed it for me: I think it's a position that requires both the cerebral and physical abilities. I also get the blindside responsibility of the LT and how difficult the assignment is. For the record, I actually like D'Brick and am pulling for him to become the player we believed he was.

[Borgoguy]

The best pass rushers tend to be the RDE, which is matched up vs the LT. They also are generally protecting the QB's blindside, so that makes it more important. Not necessarily more difficult.

Thanks also for clearing it up for me.

[KeepChad&Kellen]

I was down in Mobile that year and the two best OL at the exhibition were Brick and Mangold. McNeill was there too, and others, and they were on a lesser tier. That was the year Brick dislocated Kiwaunka's shoulder in practice and essentially turned him from a top 10 DE to a barely first round DE. Both players are dominators.

and let me also say Mangold's rep is deserved but his job is far easier than Brick's. LT is the most valuable and hard to find position on the field other than QB.

No OL is an 'island' -- not even the LT. That's a misnomer. There has to be communication and reciprocity between the OL, otherwise every failure of your team mate influences you on that play.

D'Brick stoned (as in shut out from ANY sacks) his 'designated pass rusher' last year for at least five opponents, IN SPITE of playing beside a revolving door of "I don't-wanna-be" LGs.

Faneca will change this "looking with worry to your right all the time" for D'Brick.

Also, D'Brick has a build that apparently takes a while to build up to NFL levels -- Lomas Brown came in at Mangini's behest last year to work with D'Brick and pronounced him a real treasure.

I think he deserves some slack -- let's see how Callahan has an impact on him.

[Borgoguy]

No OL is an 'island' -- not even the LT. That's a misnomer. There has to be communication and reciprocity between the OL, otherwise every failure of your team mate influences you on that play.

D'Brick stoned (as in shut out from ANY sacks) his 'designated pass rusher' last year for at least five opponents, IN SPITE of playing beside a revolving door of "I don't-wanna-be" LGs.

Faneca will change this "looking with worry to your right all the time" for D'Brick.

Also, D'Brick has a build that apparently takes a while to build up to NFL levels -- Lomas Brown came in at Mangini's behest last year to work with D'Brick and pronounced him a real treasure.

I think he deserves some slack -- let's see how Callahan has an impact on him.

Nicely put. Thinking back, how much of a cluster f**k was that OL last year? Geez, what the hell were Mangini and Tanny thinking letting Kendall go? Over what, a million bucks?

[Sperm Edwards]

first off Ngata I love this player as much as anyone - but isn't a fit for the 3-4. He's a tall 4-3 DT. The Jets could use him but he's not a perfect fit. You can't take a DL top 10 and put him in a position to produce no stats, it's a terrible situation. (see drob). The expectations far exceed the production and we'd be sitting here calling Ngata a bust.

second Ngata went in the teens - Brick would have fallen one or two slots at most. There were some who said if Brick came out of school a year prior he would have been a top pick then too - a guy like that you have to take over Ngata or even Cutler. He was value and a position of dire need.

finally Brick's run blocking is highly underrated. He's actually a pretty decent run blocker and a great pass blocker. He gets left out on an island against the league's best week in and week out. Did great against Osi and Freeney. You can't just find players like Brick. Very very far from a bust. Busts don't start every game at LT from game 1 of their rookie year.

wow

1) Ngata went #12, which (while close) is not "in the teens" technically. It's closer to top-10 than it is to mid-teens & you make it sound like he went lower than he did putting it that way.

2) Ngata fell to #12; he was expected to go #12 like Matt Leinart was expected to go #11. Because that's where he ended up getting taken doesn't mean taking Ngata higher than 12, or Leinart higher than #11 or Brady Quinn higher than #22, would have been considered a draft-day reach. Talk about looking at the draft in hindsight. As I recall, most online "experts" felt Ngata would go #8 to Buffalo if he lasted that long.

3) With your stats requirement for a DL in the top 10, then Mario Williams would have been an awful pick for us as well, as he would have been 2-gapping as well. I doubt many Patriots fans regret taking Richard Seymour (had 6+ sacks once in his entire career) with the 6th overall pick.

4) Too tall? Ted Washington was taller & weighed less when he was drafted & was as good of a 3-4 NT as the league has had during his career.

5) The Jets were (apparently) hell-bent on switching to a 3-4 and we had no nose tackle. Unless you include Pouha who was a reach in the 3rd round and was coming off injury anyway. At draft time, Mangini had never seen him line up at 3-4 NT in an NFL game anyway.

6) You place too much emphasis on who else would or would not have grabbed a player. Like Brick would never have lasted 2 more picks. You really have absolutely no idea. If you didn't already know, with the benefit of hindsight, that Matt Leinart (would have totally surprised no one if he was the #1 overall pick) would slide to #11, or that Brady Quinn (thought would go no later than #3 overall) would slide to #22, you'd be saying the same thing. That they would have been taken within the next 2 picks anyway. Saying it's so doesn't make it so.

7) Brick may have been at a position of dire need, but it was also the position commonly thought to be the deepest in the draft. Like it or not, left tackles are easier to come by than 3-4 nose tackles (let alone ones who are athletic and productive with that type of mass). And I know from your own posts that you realize this is true.

8) DRob (can't believe you're still clinging to this one) was put in a position to succeed stats-wise, where he was asked to 3-gap & penetrate & we'd see Sapp-like sack numbers. It never happened. He was (and is) a decent player, but nowhere near the "stud" you proclaimed him to be even a few years into his career. He wasn't a bust - Charles Rogers was a bust, Akili Smith was a bust, etc. DRob is a legit, starting NFL defensive tackle. But he would have no more top-10-like stats in a 4-3 either, as we'll see this year in Denver.

9) You cannot be serious that he is a GREAT pass blocker. Two years in the league; two years yielding double-digit sacks. And often with the TE helping on his side.

10) D'Brick is not a bust. He's just not a great superstar at his position & (however unfair) that is automatically expected of every player taken so high. He may grow into that player; he's still just a kid, had garbage playing next to him at LG, and looks like he'll have a long NFL career ahead of him. Calling him a bust is way premature, but rationalizing it by stating that he's been the starter from day one means nothing. Even bust OT's start from day one (see Mike Williams in Buffalo: drafted 4th overall, started for 3+ years, released after his 4th season, and hasn't been on an NFL roster ever since). It's a particularly weak argument when such a player is drafted by a team with no depth at the position (the great Adrian Jones notwithstanding).

11) If Ngata was starting on our DL, I seriously doubt anyone would be referring to him as a bust because of something so silly as individual sack numbers. Ngata has a grand total of 4 career sacks in his 2 NFL seasons (even lining up outside when they're in the 3-4; no knowledge of him playing in the middle) and no one even whispers the word "bust" when his name is brought up. He's a devastating run-stopper, that's what he was drafted to do, and that's what he has done. So that argument makes absolutely no sense either.

[scionce]

brick's problem is that he's softer than diarrhea and needs a cantankerous LG to properly motivate his @$$. in year one, he had kendall and handled his rookie campaign swimmingly. year two was the season of the "no-name" LG and regression was the special of the (sun)day every (sun)day. year three: the time for freshman flukes and sophomore slumps have come and past. faneca's bought his fiery mane and disposition to instruct brick on the use of proper arsehole technique to improve OL play. is brick a bust? far from it. he performed rather adequately considering they played scarecrow LGs next to him all last season. i wouldn't even pencil him in on a list that includes blair thomas, ryan leaf, tony mandarich etc.

[chacepennington]

a bust nah! he is still young i say give another year or so he'll blossom into a great lineman

[DaBrick Wall]

No OL is an 'island' -- not even the LT. That's a misnomer. There has to be communication and reciprocity between the OL, otherwise every failure of your team mate influences you on that play.

D'Brick stoned (as in shut out from ANY sacks) his 'designated pass rusher' last year for at least five opponents, IN SPITE of playing beside a revolving door of "I don't-wanna-be" LGs.

Faneca will change this "looking with worry to your right all the time" for D'Brick.

Also, D'Brick has a build that apparently takes a while to build up to NFL levels -- Lomas Brown came in at Mangini's behest last year to work with D'Brick and pronounced him a real treasure.

I think he deserves some slack -- let's see how Callahan has an impact on him.

I agree wholeheartedly. Last year's Jets had easily the worst O-line in the NFL, and, like you said, no O-lineman can do everything for the entire line by himself.

Would I want to pick him at 4 again? Probably not, but who would I pick? None of the Top 10 picks behind him are better or more valuable than he has been in his career thus far. I think the Jets FO got this right at the time and still look very good with the pick.

[Sperm Edwards]

I agree wholeheartedly. Last year's Jets had easily the worst O-line in the NFL, and, like you said, no O-lineman can do everything for the entire line by himself.

Would I want to pick him at 4 again? Probably not, but who would I pick? None of the Top 10 picks behind him are better or more valuable than he has been in his career thus far. I think the Jets FO got this right at the time and still look very good with the pick.

But then top-10 is an arbitrary slot because it's a round number. And two "sure" top-10 picks got bounced out of the top 10 because teams took players who were thought to be (on draft day) a "less top-10-worthy" pick like Buffalo taking Whitner. Was he truly the 8th-best prospect in the country? Please. Vince Young was thought to have Wonderlicked his way out of the top 10 by so many (some even had him out of the top 20), only to get taken at #3 as the first QB selected. We were also "assured" that players like Winston Justice would be a ridiculous steal anywhere after #10, only to drop to round 2 and suck horribly.

The point is only that "top 10" is an arbitrary number. There is no magical cutoff that holds true each and every year, whereby the big dropoff is from the 10th slot to the 11th slot. In 2006 there were a certainly more than 10 players with (traditional) top-10 draft grades.

[flgreen]

Nicely put. Thinking back, how much of a cluster f**k was that OL last year? Geez, what the hell were Mangini and Tanny thinking letting Kendall go? Over what, a million bucks?

Leting Kendall go wasn't the mistake. He should have been let go.

The boneheaded mistake was thinking clarke was an NFL player. No plan B

[Greenseed3]

I think Ferguson is going to be fine. In recent pictures, it appears he has already put on some weight, (and he's doing it the right way, gaining muscle mass with a strict diet), wait till he gets married.

His pass-blocking should improve against the bull-rush with more bulk, and I think he's plenty athletic to step up his run-blocking game.

All this talk about hindsite draft-day decisions are fine, but who knows how taking one player would affect the entire draft. Lets say we drafted AJ Hawk, or Jay Cutler, would we still have Mangold on roster, or would we have gone after McNeil at the bottom of the first? Who knows who would even be available had we taken those picks from GB and DEN, respectively.

My greater concern lies with our selections after trading up. Revis BETTER be the best CB of his draft, and not Leon Hall, and Keller BETTER be the best recieving threat of his draft. Otherwise, we gave away draft picks to bypass superior talent; those are the guys I'd be more worried about. D'Brick, Gholston; both highly touted players that we drafted at just the right spot.

[Damaged89]

Leting Kendall go wasn't the mistake. He should have been let go.

The boneheaded mistake was thinking clarke was an NFL player. No plan B

They had a plan B. It was the "this guy weighs 330 pounds, maybe he'll be good" plan.

[Borgoguy]

Leting Kendall go wasn't the mistake. He should have been let go.

The boneheaded mistake was thinking clarke was an NFL player. No plan B

That's right on the money, and also what I meant to say. Letting Kendall go without a viable backup doomed us last year. Thanks for clarifying my weak post.

[bitonti]

3) With your stats requirement for a DL in the top 10, then Mario Williams would have been an awful pick for us as well, as he would have been 2-gapping as well. I doubt many Patriots fans regret taking Richard Seymour (had 6+ sacks once in his entire career) with the 6th overall pick.

it sounds petty but the 2 inches of height make Seymour a more ideal 3-4 DE than Ngata. Also mario williams wouldn't be a good choice for this defense b/c he wouldn't be able to use his abilities. Don't take a penetrator and tell him to gap clogg (again see Drob).

4) Too tall? Ted Washington was taller & weighed less when he was drafted & was as good of a 3-4 NT as the league has had during his career.

Washington wasn't great at NT until he got older and weighed nearly 400 pounds at 6'5" - and it's an exception to the rule. I can say Drew brees proves that short Qbs are great but for every Brees there are 100 bollingers.

5) The Jets were (apparently) hell-bent on switching to a 3-4 and we had no nose tackle. Unless you include Pouha who was a reach in the 3rd round and was coming off injury anyway. At draft time, Mangini had never seen him line up at 3-4 NT in an NFL game anyway.

Again in pure draft terms you don't take a 2 gap player in the top 10 (see Carriker, Adam). Pass rushers are worth top 10 picks, gap cloggers aren't. Taking Ngata at 4, no matter how well he fits, is reaching. And ask r44 the next time you see him, I was high on Ngata since he was a freshman. Brick was just a better prospect.

6) You place too much emphasis on who else would or would not have grabbed a player.

Im not placing emphasis Im just asking a question who would you take? If the answer is Ngata, who went 8 slots later, that's saying you would have reached. And that's fine but it's not the correct move going by positional value.

7) Brick may have been at a position of dire need, but it was also the position commonly thought to be the deepest in the draft. Like it or not, left tackles are easier to come by than 3-4 nose tackles (let alone ones who are athletic and productive with that type of mass). And I know from your own posts that you realize this is true.

In some respects this is true but because of the market (i.e. not everyone needs a 3-4 NT, but everyone needs a pass blocking LT) the LT is a rarer player. And again just because a crop seems deep doesn't mean it is. Winston Justice friggin blows chunks. And at the time there were people here pissed the Jets didn't draft him instead.

8) DRob (can't believe you're still clinging to this one) was put in a position to succeed stats-wise, where he was asked to 3-gap & penetrate & we'd see Sapp-like sack numbers. It never happened. He was (and is) a decent player, but nowhere near the "stud" you proclaimed him to be even a few years into his career. He wasn't a bust - Charles Rogers was a bust, Akili Smith was a bust, etc. DRob is a legit, starting NFL defensive tackle. But he would have no more top-10-like stats in a 4-3 either, as we'll see this year in Denver.

I don't know about that. if Drob has 10 sacks this year it will have justified the pick at the time as wise. If he doesn't - fair enough - but he could. The jury is not in.

9) You cannot be serious that he is a GREAT pass blocker. Two years in the league; two years yielding double-digit sacks. And often with the TE helping on his side.

I am deadly serious. He faces the leagues best every week and shuts em down. He has a problem with power players but the top names routinely don't get close to Jets QB. He shut down osi and jason taylor in consecutive weeks, that's the sign of a great pass blocker. he needs to get more consistant and yes bigger but that will come with time.

10) D'Brick is not a bust. He's just not a great superstar at his position & (however unfair) that is automatically expected of every player taken so high.

those expectations are out of whack with reality.

11) If Ngata was starting on our DL, I seriously doubt anyone would be referring to him as a bust because of something so silly as individual sack numbers.

don't underestimate Jets fans - when the team is 4-12 everyones a bust.

[Ghost]

He haven't lived up to his expectations just yet, as of now I'll list him as a bust.

But this is the year to change everything especially with Alan between him and Mangold.

[Sperm Edwards]

it sounds petty but the 2 inches of height make Seymour a more ideal 3-4 DE than Ngata. Also mario williams wouldn't be a good choice for this defense b/c he wouldn't be able to use his abilities. Don't take a penetrator and tell him to gap clogg (again see Drob).

So therefore if a player is 6'4 only a fool would put him on a 3-man line? Man you've seen & evaluated a hell of a lot more prospects than I have, but you do fall into the trap that you warn others about: ignoring that some guys are just good or great prospects even without what many consider to be must-have physical traits. 6'0 to 6'2 is an ok NT height and that's that? That may look fine on paper but you seriously believe Ngata would make a bad NT? Mangini must be a fool to think Kris Jenkins can fill this role, since he's 6'4/360 (hopefully 360) himself.

Washington wasn't great at NT until he got older and weighed nearly 400 pounds at 6'5" - and it's an exception to the rule. I can say Drew brees proves that short Qbs are great but for every Brees there are 100 bollingers.

That is just patently false. Even when he arrived in Buffalo he was maybe 350 (at 6'5). No one really knows since he was still listed at 325 even when he was 50 lbs heavier. But he didn't get up to 400 lbs until the last 5 years or so. He just looks different now than he did back then.

Again in pure draft terms you don't take a 2 gap player in the top 10 (see Carriker, Adam). Pass rushers are worth top 10 picks, gap cloggers aren't. Taking Ngata at 4, no matter how well he fits, is reaching. And ask r44 the next time you see him, I was high on Ngata since he was a freshman. Brick was just a better prospect.

Whether one player or another is a better prospect is of course subject to opinion. But there is a major reason certain positions go earlier than others & it has to do with rarity of the position. Or more to the point, how difficult would it be to find this type of player later in the draft, in free agency, or via trade? That's why left tackles go so high & the rest don't. A lot of it is simply prejudice on behalf of GM's that has trickled down to fans. Truth is, if you're willing to break the bank on a player at any position, there's no reason to stay away from that position at any point. OG is a good example; I don't think it's so nutty to take a guard in the top half of the first round, but most do. Then those same people applaud & say "well, he's worth it" when guys like Hutchinson, Steinbach, Dockery, Faneca, etc get left tackle money and don't disappoint their teams.

But then, Levi Brown was an elite RIGHT tackle prospect and went 4th in the country. I don't think Arizona wishes they had drafted Joe Staley instead, as their ground game netted about another half yard per carry with Brown as only a rookie.

The prejudice against certain positions at certain points in the draft is just that. Some people would rather have a (thought to be) sure thing. Others feel this part of the draft is a unique opportunity to take a better calculated risk on a big-name position. Me? I don't give a crap (not that it's what I do for a living). I'm a salary cap nerd & based on that, I see positions as worth a certain amount of money on the cap. Supply and demand should dictate who a team takes. A 3-4 team without a nose tackle is in high demand for a position there's virtually no supply of. When one would have plopped into our lap at #4 I would have grabbed him & not looked back.

Im not placing emphasis Im just asking a question who would you take? If the answer is Ngata, who went 8 slots later, that's saying you would have reached. And that's fine but it's not the correct move going by positional value.

It is my philosophy to take the player that is the most irreplaceable & the most difficult to find elsewhere. My top preferences at #4 (given who was available) were either Ngata or Cutler in that order. And that was only because of cap reasons; DLmen that aren't all that can be rotated in & out. QB's that don't work out can doom a team for a few seasons. And coming out of Vanderbilt there were questions as to whether Cutler's lack of awesome stats was due to his team or him. It was a legitimate concern but he seems fine to me so far. I would have been plenty happy with either. The thing is, there are more good QB's in the league than there are good nose tackles who can fit well into a 3-man line.

As good as a penetrator as Mario is, that does NOT mean he would have flopped or been miscast on a 3-man line. Elite is elite. Players like Bruce Smith, all 265 lbs of him, played for years at star level, on a 3-man line next to fat Teddy. 6'4/295 or whatever he was is hardly undersized for a 3-4 DE.

In some respects this is true but because of the market (i.e. not everyone needs a 3-4 NT, but everyone needs a pass blocking LT) the LT is a rarer player. And again just because a crop seems deep doesn't mean it is. Winston Justice friggin blows chunks. And at the time there were people here pissed the Jets didn't draft him instead.

You had Winston Justice at around #10 overall at draftdaddy. Not at where you thought they'd get drafted, but as the 10th best prospect in the entire draft. So did many. But it's easy for you to now say that he blows chunks. You didn't think so in April 2006.

One of the reasons teams don't go to a 3-4 is the lack of personnel suited for it. There is none greater than NT. You can always find 4-3 DT's who could shift over to end in the 3-4. Or 3-4 DE's that can move to OLB. Decent sized ILB'ers as well. The only rare thing to find is a big man in the middle who isn't just fat.

And there are mobile guards that can move over to left tackle when the situation commands it. But more to the point, there are good (if not elite) left tackle prospects in every draft every single year. A guy like Ngata just doesn't come around that often. And for him to drop ONLY to #12 in THAT draft - one with 3 QB's taken in the top 11 - speaks to how highly he was thought of.

I don't know about that. if Drob has 10 sacks this year it will have justified the pick at the time as wise. If he doesn't - fair enough - but he could. The jury is not in.

I will take that bet. And I'm not even one of the ones who thinks he is a total bust.

I am deadly serious. He faces the leagues best every week and shuts em down. He has a problem with power players but the top names routinely don't get close to Jets QB. He shut down osi and jason taylor in consecutive weeks, that's the sign of a great pass blocker. he needs to get more consistant and yes bigger but that will come with time.

We just disagree on that. I saw Clemens & Pennington with plenty of pressure from their blind side even when it didn't result in a total sack. It may have resulted in a premature pass that fell incomplete or intercepted outright. But then that doesn't show on a LT's stat sheet. I don't recall the pressure Pennington felt en route to his 3 picks all coming from everyone except Osi Umenyiora because he only registered 1 sack on the stat sheet.

He's also been schooled by other DE's as well. It comes with the territory with young players, so I don't hold that against him. But his first 2 years in the league he was not an elite pass protector.

those expectations are out of whack with reality.

Not saying they aren't, but so many other guys are taken after him and he's getting paid like a superstar. If you're not getting a superstar, might as well trade the pick away & get a known quantity. Something about the draft - I don't know what it is. People would rather have a top-5 draft pick, and pay him a gargantuan amount of money while he learns the pro game, than trade the pick away for a sure thing. In the salary cap era, that is contrary to logic. Maybe it's the reason so many people play the lottery even though they know the chances of winning suck ass.

don't underestimate Jets fans - when the team is 4-12 everyones a bust.

lol. Hard to argue with that. But then, Ferguson garnered this criticism when we were 10-6 also. And aec4 notwithstanding, there weren't too many people who thought Revis & Harris weren't everything they hoped they would be as rookies.

[PaJetFan]

It is the most important position because it is where teams blitz from the most. They rush off the edge in order to hit the quarterback more than anywhere else. Center is not as 'important' because while it is important, your quarterback does not get demolished by up-the-middle rushers like they do from the edge. So obviously if quarterback is the most important position, then the primary protector of that position's health, should be very high, if nto the second most important player. Left is most important than right, because quarterbacks are predominantly right handed, therefore statistically, their blind side more often falls to the left, which is where the most devastating hits come from.

[Sperm Edwards]

It is the most important position because it is where teams blitz from the most. They rush off the edge in order to hit the quarterback more than anywhere else. Center is not as 'important' because while it is important, your quarterback does not get demolished by up-the-middle rushers like they do from the edge. So obviously if quarterback is the most important position, then the primary protector of that position's health, should be very high, if nto the second most important player. Left is most important than right, because quarterbacks are predominantly right handed, therefore statistically, their blind side more often falls to the left, which is where the most devastating hits come from.

Which is why the SB champs let their first round pick left tackle go, didn't acquire another left tackle, didn't burn a draft pick on a left tackle (or any OL position) until round 6, and threw one of their guards (himself a former 5th rounder) over there. Because it's so rare that someone can do the job well.

I'm all for using high picks on the lines. But that doesn't mean "left tackles and pass rushing 4-3 DE's" only.

[KeepChad&Kellen]

Which is why the SB champs let their first round pick left tackle go, didn't acquire another left tackle, didn't burn a draft pick on a left tackle (or any OL position) until round 6, and threw one of their guards (himself a former 5th rounder) over there. Because it's so rare that someone can do the job well.

I'm all for using high picks on the lines. But that doesn't mean "left tackles and pass rushing 4-3 DE's" only.

Now, ya'll have to admit that David Diehl was a crapshoot on day one, and the 'contrarian' that he is just manifested, by god...!

You can't count on this stunning exception destroying the trend that the LT is a tough position to fill and therefore carries a high market value.

There's no such thing as a perfect LT. Even the man-giant Jonathan Ogden had folks who owned his ass from time to time. It not just talent, it's psychological as well. Some people get your number and then tend to play you like their little sister's piano. You have to grin and bear it until you find somebody who's figured that bastard out who'll tell you all about it.

Few and far between, those guys.

This is why the NYGs are sorry to see Strahan go -- now there was a repository about how to ruin the other guy's lunch for the next three weeks.

Strahan had this knack about winning over his opponent -- it didn't happen every time, as Strahan knew that this wasn't necessary. What was necessary was that it happened most often when his team REALLY NEEDED it. You just save what you know for those one or two times that you can ruin the guy's resume for the moment while his QB's trying his damnedest to 'manifest'...

This guy, D'Brick, is on his way. He's going to dictate the other guy's night time prayers before it's over. Have a little faith, gentlemen.