Key for 2011 Jets--Getting a Top Talent 3-4 NT

[Matt39]

I agree with that. Pouha is a worthy starter, but he can't be the best player on your DLine and expect to have huge success. He will get exposed and the defense will suffer, like it did against the Steelers.

It's not just about OLB, which is also a big need. If I ranked the defensive needs in order of priority it would be:

1. NT (DE)

2. OLB

3. S

The defense struggled against the Steelers because Harris and Bart Scott played like absolute dogs. Also, Bryan Thomas stinks...and Im leaning toward saying Pace stinks too.

Pouha and Devito both were getting penetration....the guys that were supposed to clean up werent doing their jobs.

I'm all for depth on the dline, but Pouha is a top 7 NT in the league right now. He's a very good player.

[SenorGato]

The defense struggled against the Steelers because Harris and Bart Scott played like absolute dogs. Also, Bryan Thomas stinks...and Im leaning toward saying Pace stinks too.

Pouha and Devito both were getting penetration....the guys that were supposed to clean up werent doing their jobs.

I'm all for depth on the dline, but Pouha is a top 7 NT in the league right now. He's a very good player.

And DeVito is a solid starter at DE, though even then I think he'd be great as a Chris Hoke/Mike Wright type DL...Ellis is too old to be a run stopper on the DL and we'll need someone who is athletic enough to be a legit weapon on the field in passing downs.

The Steelers straight up manhandled our front 7 the majority of the time...I think we need size...I wouldn't mind a new LB or possibly two, if they're really talented.

[Stonehands]

That makes sense, let's spend for a NT and have to let David Harris walk and see how what happens to our defense up the middle. NT is not a problem as long as they are able to occupy lineman and allow Harris to clean up. Sign Harris and bring in a few cheap fat guys to try out behind Pouha...that's my plan.

[docdhc]

this thread reminds me why Ryan is such a great coach. The Jets defensive personnel are not as good as the Jets defensive rankings the last two years would indicate. They have one superstar in Revis, a couple of near pro bowlers in Cro, Harris, and maybe Scott and Pace. The rest are just jags, especially the two starting safeties. I don't think they would start on a third of other NFL teams. The defensive line is average with Ellis past his prime,and Devito and Pouha overachieving. There are more talented defenses out there in the NFL but few outperform the Jets which shows Ryan's coaching skill.

[SMC]

That makes sense, let's spend for a NT and have to let David Harris walk and see how what happens to our defense up the middle. NT is not a problem as long as they are able to occupy lineman and allow Harris to clean up. Sign Harris and bring in a few cheap fat guys to try out behind Pouha...that's my plan.

The fact that Harris has to make tackles well past the LOS is because of the lack of a top talent NT.

In Rex's 3-4 defense the NT is supposed to penatrate and make plays behind the LOS by either tackling the RB for a loss of disrupt the QB. The Rex NT isn't there merely to to "occupy lineman." That's how Mangini runs it, not Rex or Wade Philips for that matter. It's a different type of 3-4 scheme.

[SMC]

this thread reminds me why Ryan is such a great coach. The Jets defensive personnel are not as good as the Jets defensive rankings the last two years would indicate. They have one superstar in Revis, a couple of near pro bowlers in Cro, Harris, and maybe Scott and Pace. The rest are just jags, especially the two starting safeties. I don't think they would start on a third of other NFL teams. The defensive line is average with Ellis past his prime,and Devito and Pouha overachieving. There are more talented defenses out there in the NFL but few outperform the Jets which shows Ryan's coaching skill.

Excellent point. Rex deserves a tremendous amount of credit because he's not working with defensive stars, but he's still running a top 5 defense.

[villain_the_foe]

Pouha had a bad game against the Steelers. Overall however, I think he's a pretty good DT. Our need is a DE. as well as a pass rushing LB.

[neckdemon]

The defense struggled against the Steelers because Harris and Bart Scott played like absolute dogs. Also, Bryan Thomas stinks...and Im leaning toward saying Pace stinks too.

Pouha and Devito both were getting penetration....the guys that were supposed to clean up werent doing their jobs.

I'm all for depth on the dline, but Pouha is a top 7 NT in the league right now. He's a very good player.

lol...wtf is a top 7 NT? one you get passed like top 3 or maybe even 5 this top xx sh*t is just stupid. i'v eseen people say....top 13 WR. lol....give me a ******* break.

[Matt39]

lol...wtf is a top 7 NT? one you get passed like top 3 or maybe even 5 this top xx sh*t is just stupid. i'v eseen people say....top 13 WR. lol....give me a ******* break.

well, one, relax.

Two, Pouha is fine as a starting NT. That's what I was getting at.

[Lupz27]

Why is everyone forgetting about Ropati Pitoitua, Rex absolutly loves him he had a monster preseaseason before the injury.

Our starting d-line will be Ropati, Pouha, and DeVito next season bank on it, its gonna be the rotation guys that the Jets are gonna be signing, or drafting with some of our mid to late round picks.

1st round draft pick should be a ILB beast who can actually cover someone.

[Bugg]

Save your breath. No chance Ngata hits the market this season. None. Zip. Zero.

Have no idea what the CBA will look like, but Ngata will be franchised or something like that.

We could live with Pouhe/Devito/Ellis (at the right price) if the LB sposts inside or out were upgraded or a situational pass-rush DE was obtained.

Pace is a huge dissappointment. Harris was good to bad. Scott talks a better game than he plays. And Thomas is servicable roster filler, nothing more. We all did a lot of badmouthing of Brodney Poole, Eric Smith and Jim Leonard for TEs you never heard of having career days. But those TEs are more often the responsibilty of ILBs.

[Bugg]

Why is everyone forgetting about Ropati Pitoitua, Rex absolutly loves him he had a monster preseaseason before the injury.Our starting d-line will be Ropati, Pouha, and DeVito next season bank on it, its gonna be the rotation guys that the Jets are gonna be signing, or drafting with some of our mid to late round picks.

1st round draft pick should be a ILB beast who can actually cover someone.

Despite it being a very big deal on "Hard Knocks", frogot all about him. We will see him in camp.

[BroadwayJoe12]

lol...wtf is a top 7 NT? one you get passed like top 3 or maybe even 5 this top xx sh*t is just stupid. i'v eseen people say....top 13 WR. lol....give me a ******* break.

At the sake of sounding condescending, a top 7 NT is simply that, a nose tackle who is better than all but 6 or so NTs in the league. Pouha is not even close to a problem or liability.

Also, how is saying top 13 WR is stupid?? There are 32 teams in this league, who employ at minimum a two WR set, sometimes 3, 4 or 5, thus if you have a top 13 WR it's easy to say you have more than half the league who is envious of your WR. I think you're failing to realize how many talented players there are in this league. If you were to say top 13 QB in the league, than I'd say it's a joke, but top 13ish WR is a fairly common term. You don't need to be so combative.

When you have talent like:

Brandon Lloyd

Roddy White

Reggie Wayne

Greg Jennings

Mike Wallace

Andre Johnson

Dwayne Bowe

Larry Fitzgerald

Calvin Johnson

Santana Moss

Stevie Johnson

DeSean Jackson

Hakeem Nicks

Miles Austin

Marques Colston

Brandon Marshall

Terrell Owens

Mike Williams

Jeremy Maclin

Johnny Knox

Mario Manningham

Braylon Edwards

Percy Harvin

Wes Welker

Anquan Boldin

Chad Ochocinco

Davone Bess

Pierre Garcon

Kenny Britt

Lance Moore

Santonio Holmes

Michael Crabtree

Steve Breaston

Top 13 is not that hard to say.

[SenorGato]

lol...wtf is a top 7 NT? one you get passed like top 3 or maybe even 5 this top xx sh*t is just stupid. i'v eseen people say....top 13 WR. lol....give me a ******* break.

League is loaded at WR...Pouha's a very solid NT and capable of holding the starting job for at least another year...I still think the biggest need is at DE/DT rather than NT/DT. A pass rusher would also be awesome.

[T0mShane]

Thread is too long, but the problem at NT isn't Pouha, it's that there's no one behind Pouha. The lack of depth hurt them more than anything else there. Matt Kroul sucked and Jenkins is a walking injury.

IMO, by far the Jets' biggest need is an OLB that can close out games by pressuring the QB late. A lot of these miraculous late surges by opposing offenses can be circumvented with one or two sacks--hell, pressures--by a legit pass rusher. It's the difference between a great defense and a really good defense (like we have now).

[Matt39]

Thread is too long, but the problem at NT isn't Pouha, it's that there's no one behind Pouha. The lack of depth hurt them more than anything else there. Matt Kroul sucked and Jenkins is a walking injury.

IMO, by far the Jets' biggest need is an OLB that can close out games by pressuring the QB late. A lot of these miraculous late surges by opposing offenses can be circumvented with one or two sacks--hell, pressures--by a legit pass rusher. It's the difference between a great defense and a really good defense (like we have now).

Bryan Thomas should have been gone 6 years ago by now.

[T0mShane]

Bryan Thomas should have been gone 6 years ago by now.

If Gholston had a pulse, Thomas would have been gone two years ago. Then again, if Thomas had a pulse, maybe the Jets never draft Gholston in the first place.

[SenorGato]

Thread is too long, but the problem at NT isn't Pouha, it's that there's no one behind Pouha. The lack of depth hurt them more than anything else there. Matt Kroul sucked and Jenkins is a walking injury.

IMO, by far the Jets' biggest need is an OLB that can close out games by pressuring the QB late. A lot of these miraculous late surges by opposing offenses can be circumvented with one or two sacks--hell, pressures--by a legit pass rusher. It's the difference between a great defense and a really good defense (like we have now).

You know who makes pass rushers look better? Great DL.

Matthews gets to run around Raji/Pickett/Jenkins...Ware in his 20 sack season had Spears/Ratliff/Canty...Suggs has Ngata...Merriman had Olshansky/Williams/Castillo...The Pats' best player after Brady during the 2000's was Seymour...

It's not an easy thing to find that pass rusher...and we'd be extremely lucky to find that guy this offseason. The DL really should not be ignored when it comes to pass rush, especially in a passing league where getting a pass rush from the base D is essential.

Remember the team has spent a ton of money at the LB position (Thomas got his extension, Harris in the 2nd, Pace's contract, Scott's contract...) since making the transition to a 3-4...they've spent next to nothing on DL.

Also, Pace is still massively underrated...It's justified, but I think he's very capable of monster season.

[T0mShane]

You know who makes pass rushers look better? Great DL.

Matthews gets to run around Raji/Pickett/Jenkins...Ware in his 20 sack season had Spears/Ratliff/Canty...Suggs has Ngata...Merriman had Olshansky/Williams/Castillo...The Pats' best player after Brady during the 2000's was Seymour...

It's not an easy thing to find that pass rusher...and we'd be extremely lucky to find that guy this offseason. The DL really should not be ignored when it comes to pass rush, especially in a passing league where getting a pass rush from the base D is essential.

Remember the team has spent a ton of money at the LB position (Thomas got his extension, Harris in the 2nd, Pace's contract, Scott's contract...) since making the transition to a 3-4...they've spent next to nothing on DL.

Also, Pace is still massively underrated...It's justified, but I think he's very capable of monster season.

I hear what you're saying, but I think you could line Bryan Thomas and Calvin Pace up behind Mean Joe Greene and John Randle and they'd struggle to get a combined 15 sacks from the LB position. They're just not that kind of player. Pace gets half of his sacks by coming unblocked or when he beats a back who screws up a blitz pickup. Thomas is just nutsack.

To be practical, finding a 3-4 end who can also rush the passer at #30 is almost impossible and extracting Ngata from Baltimore it as realistic as getting Peyton Manning from Indy. If the Steelers don't want to pay Woodley (they never resign their own guys and they have Timmons ready), then Tannenbaum has a realistic target in FA, and there could be a realistic developmental OLB at #30 who could contribute as a pass rusher.

[Matt39]

Maybe we can just give Pace the steroids Matthews is on.

oh...wait...

[SenorGato]

I hear what you're saying, but I think you could line Bryan Thomas and Calvin Pace up behind Mean Joe Greene and John Randle and they'd struggle to get a combined 15 sacks from the LB position. They're just not that kind of player. Pace gets half of his sacks by coming unblocked or when he beats a back who screws up a blitz pickup. Thomas is just nutsack.

To be practical, finding a 3-4 end who can also rush the passer at #30 is almost impossible and extracting Ngata from Baltimore it as realistic as getting Peyton Manning from Indy. If the Steelers don't want to pay Woodley (they never resign their own guys and they have Timmons ready), then Tannenbaum has a realistic target in FA, and there could be a realistic developmental OLB at #30 who could contribute as a pass rusher.

Thomas really is just a solid player...Pace otoh is a beast when he's on the field...most pass rushers get their sacks when they're not blocked or a back screws up a pickup...check out old Merriman highlights or even Ware, who is awesome...they're SUPPOSED to get those sacks...Thomas is a guy who doesn't get them, and that's his problem.

Woodley would be amazing...remember the Steelers beat us to him in the Revis draft where we got Harris instead....Ngata is definitely not happening, but if they brought Seymour in...I realize he's an ex-Pat but that guy is a HOF and the definition of a 3-4 DE...one of the top 10 players I've seen...great point on the Steelers not bringing back their own players though...they always leave them to get paid big money elsewhere, and then trust their scouting and coaches to bring the next one up...that said, Woodley is one of the few guys on that D entering his prime rather than leaving it...so...who knows...I know I'd rather sign an OLB free agent than draft another one high again...

[Matt39]

Thomas really is just a solid player...Pace otoh is a beast when he's on the field...most pass rushers get their sacks when they're not blocked or a back screws up a pickup...check out old Merriman highlights or even Ware, who is awesome...they're SUPPOSED to get those sacks...Thomas is a guy who doesn't get them, and that's his problem.

Woodley would be amazing...remember the Steelers beat us to him in the Revis draft where we got Harris instead....Ngata is definitely not happening, but if they brought Seymour in...I realize he's an ex-Pat but that guy is a HOF and the definition of a 3-4 DE...one of the top 10 players I've seen...great point on the Steelers not bringing back their own players though...they always leave them to get paid big money elsewhere, and then trust their scouting and coaches to bring the next one up...that said, Woodley is one of the few guys on that D entering his prime rather than leaving it...so...who knows...I know I'd rather sign an OLB free agent than draft another one high again...

Thomas isnt a solid player. His performance against the Steelers was one for the ages.

[bitonti]

i agree that OLB/DL are the first targets and that safety is also a need, they have age concerns

but don't forget that D is still the stronger unit. If the Offense plays better in the first and second quarters of games we might be getting ready for a Super Bowl appearance. Points do get scored in the NFL... no defense will shut down another team completely all game long. There's not an obvious draft pick that can fix the offense but I do believe it is still the weaker unit and needs to step up next year. The D is what it is, a top 5 unit, with potential to be #1. The O is still a tier or two below that...

[Matt39]

i agree that OLB/DL are the first targets and that safety is also a need, they have age concerns

but don't forget that D is still the stronger unit. If the Offense plays better in the first and second quarters of games we might be getting ready for a Super Bowl appearance. Points do get scored in the NFL... no defense will shut down another team completely all game long. There's not an obvious draft pick that can fix the offense but I do believe it is still the weaker unit and needs to step up next year. The D is what it is, a top 5 unit, with potential to be #1. The O is still a tier or two below that...

The offense right now is the weaker unit because of the QB play. Also, its extremely difficult to say how good Bryalon and Santonio actually are. They could be worse than we think or better. Until Sanchez becomes more consistent, we wont know.

The defense was an absolute joke in the first half against Pittsburgh. A ten minute drive to begin the game was why the Jets lost. When an offenses first possession begins with 4 minutes left in in the 1st quarter, on the road nonetheless, its nearly impossible to get in a rhythm.

[SMC]

Bit, the D is a top 5 unit based on scheme, not talent. The lack of talent in the front 7 got exposed by the Steelers.

Matt is right on in saying that the offense is weaker because of Sanchez' inconsistancy. When Sanchez is clicking the team is putting up around 30 points a game. When not it's a struggle to reach double digits.

When the Jets started the season the Dline starters were Pouha, Jenkins, and Ellis. I like Pouha and he should still be a starter, but they need an impact player at either the NT or other DE position.

The problem with the defense is that it didn't make enough impact plays. We've seen games in which the offense has bailed out the defense, what games were there this year when the defense bailed out the offense?

[T0mShane]

The offense right now is the weaker unit because of the QB play. Also, its extremely difficult to say how good Bryalon and Santonio actually are. They could be worse than we think or better. Until Sanchez becomes more consistent, we wont know.

The defense was an absolute joke in the first half against Pittsburgh. A ten minute drive to begin the game was why the Jets lost. When an offenses first possession begins with 4 minutes left in in the 4th quarter, on the road nonetheless, its nearly impossible to get in a rhythm.

+1

Great post.

[SenorGato]

i agree that OLB/DL are the first targets and that safety is also a need, they have age concerns

but don't forget that D is still the stronger unit. If the Offense plays better in the first and second quarters of games we might be getting ready for a Super Bowl appearance. Points do get scored in the NFL... no defense will shut down another team completely all game long. There's not an obvious draft pick that can fix the offense but I do believe it is still the weaker unit and needs to step up next year. The D is what it is, a top 5 unit, with potential to be #1. The O is still a tier or two below that...

Matt covered it pretty damn well but just to reiterate....The Steelers ran all over our DL and made plays when they had to. The front 3 has been very ignored during the 5 years we've played in the 3-4, and it caught up to us in that AFC Championship game.

I thought the offense would cost us the game against the Steelers, and they're partially responsible, but our supposed best unit got smack around that fateful Sunday.

[SMC]

Matt covered it pretty damn well but just to reiterate....The Steelers ran all over our DL and made plays when they had to. The front 3 has been very ignored during the 5 years we've played in the 3-4, and it caught up to us in that AFC Championship game.

I thought the offense would cost us the game against the Steelers, and they're partially responsible, but our supposed best unit got smack around that fateful Sunday.

Well said, Gato (and Matt too).

The DLine hasn't been addressed since the Jets drafted D'Rob in 2004. They thought they addressed it with Jenkins, but he was nothing more than a 350lb tease.

[SenorGato]

Top 3-4 DL prospects for the 2011 Draft in no particular order:

Nick Fairley

Marcel Dareus

Cameron Jordan - Trevor Pryce lite.

Cameron Heyward - Richard Seymour-lite...very lite because of who Seymour is.

Christian Ballard

Phil Taylor

JJ Watt

Mohammed Wilkerson

Lawrence Guy

Jerrell Powe

Allen Bailey

Kendrick Ellis

Marvin Austin

Jarvis Jenkins

Sione Fua

These are most of the guys I can see going in the first 3 rounds...Jordan is pretty damn near perfect...Heyward's taller and stronger but less athletic...

[BroadwayJoe12]

Top 3-4 DL prospects for the 2011 Draft in no particular order:

Nick Fairley

Marcel Dareus

Cameron Jordan - Trevor Pryce lite.

Cameron Heyward - Richard Seymour-lite...very lite because of who Seymour is.

Christian Ballard

Phil Taylor

JJ Watt

Mohammed Wilkerson

Lawrence Guy

Jerrell Powe

Allen Bailey

Kendrick Ellis

Marvin Austin

Jarvis Jenkins

Sione Fua

These are most of the guys I can see going in the first 3 rounds...Jordan is pretty damn near perfect...Heyward's taller and stronger but less athletic...

I've become absolutely enfatuated with Jordan, he's played himself to the top 15 in my opinion, especially with the senior bowl he's been having. I have to admit, I didn't get to watch too many Cal games, due to the time they were on this year. I caught a couple, but not every game like I do for LSU and a lot of the elite SEC teams.

A lot of the talk that's been heating up has Brooks Reed putting in some pretty good performances. I think he's getting either severely under or overrated just because he's white and has long blond hair and people automatically compare him to clay matthews III.

I know he, Cam Jordan and a bunch of other guys were talked to separately by the Jets. Now this should be taken with a grain of salt, because there hasn't been a huge correlation with player observations at the SR bowl and who gets selected. However, I have noticed a trend towards positions they look for, so who knows.

Ryan Kerrigan has looked good as well, but reminds me a lot of Chris Long, not just because he's white, but his transition to OLB from DE and has played a bit standing up in college. I just am not sure he'll ever be more than a high motor guy who will play the run well and compile a few sacks, I just don't see him being feared.

[bitonti]

Ryan Kerrigan has looked good as well, but reminds me a lot of Chris Long, not just because he's white, but his transition to OLB from DE and has played a bit standing up in college. I just am not sure he'll ever be more than a high motor guy who will play the run well and compile a few sacks, I just don't see him being feared.

he might be a better athlete than Long. I would love for the Jets to get Kerrigan... he was a beast getting around the edge this week... long shot he makes to 30 but it is possible. with 4 qbs, 4 OTs and all those 3-4 DE off the board it becomes possible for Ryan Kerrigan to slip.

as for the D vs the O i agree the first drive at Pit was awful but if the O comes out and responds, makes it 7-7 or even 7-3 it's a different game. If Sanchez takes the sack or throws the ball a second earlier and doesn't get fumbled to go down 24-0 the Jets could have won 19-17. Defenses play better with a lead and the Jets defense isn't perfect but they are damn good and overall not the problem with this team.

[SenorGato]

I've become absolutely enfatuated with Jordan, he's played himself to the top 15 in my opinion, especially with the senior bowl he's been having. I have to admit, I didn't get to watch too many Cal games, due to the time they were on this year. I caught a couple, but not every game like I do for LSU and a lot of the elite SEC teams.

A lot of the talk that's been heating up has Brooks Reed putting in some pretty good performances. I think he's getting either severely under or overrated just because he's white and has long blond hair and people automatically compare him to clay matthews III.

I know he, Cam Jordan and a bunch of other guys were talked to separately by the Jets. Now this should be taken with a grain of salt, because there hasn't been a huge correlation with player observations at the SR bowl and who gets selected. However, I have noticed a trend towards positions they look for, so who knows.

Ryan Kerrigan has looked good as well, but reminds me a lot of Chris Long, not just because he's white, but his transition to OLB from DE and has played a bit standing up in college. I just am not sure he'll ever be more than a high motor guy who will play the run well and compile a few sacks, I just don't see him being feared.

Jordan's pretty much perfect...he'll go in the top 15 easy.

Brooks Reed is a sleeper for our first round pick...if Koa Misi can go in the top 40, this guy can pull it of...He's not Clay Matthews, but he's at least as good as Misi as a prospect.

I think Kerrigan is alot like Pace...he'll be a really good but not great pro player...which will lead to him being very underrated for a while. I do like him a bit though...he's got very good size for DE/OLB....says he wants to play DE.

[neckdemon]

well, one, relax.

Two, Pouha is fine as a starting NT. That's what I was getting at.

i didn't mean it to sound as douche as it came off. but when you say top anything you are lumping them all into the same category as if they are very similar in ability and talent. just saying he was around the 7th ranked nose tackle makes alot more sense. because he surely isn't anywhere near as good as the top 3 in the league and shouldn't be put in the same category. that was my point.

[Sperm Edwards]

You know who makes pass rushers look better? Great DL.

Matthews gets to run around Raji/Pickett/Jenkins...Ware in his 20 sack season had Spears/Ratliff/Canty...Suggs has Ngata...Merriman had Olshansky/Williams/Castillo...The Pats' best player after Brady during the 2000's was Seymour...

It's not an easy thing to find that pass rusher...and we'd be extremely lucky to find that guy this offseason. The DL really should not be ignored when it comes to pass rush, especially in a passing league where getting a pass rush from the base D is essential.

Remember the team has spent a ton of money at the LB position (Thomas got his extension, Harris in the 2nd, Pace's contract, Scott's contract...) since making the transition to a 3-4...they've spent next to nothing on DL.

Also, Pace is still massively underrated...It's justified, but I think he's very capable of monster season.

I've agreed with a lot of your non-Schotty posts the past couple of weeks but this is just an ignorant summation of the cause of Jets pass-rushing woes and comparing it to that of a couple of other teams. Guys like Matthews and Ware are elite pass rushers.

[SMC]

Have no idea what the CBA will look like, but Ngata will be franchised or something like that.

There's a lot of great football discussions going on in this thread, but a major point of my OP might be lost here.

If Ngata is franchised and the Jets are permitted to make him an offer (meaning, he gets the non-exclusive franchise tender), then I think the Jets should go after him and be willing to give up 2 1st rounders. Ngata is worth it.

Usually when a player is franchised that's the end of it, but with the Jets & Ngata I believe they should pursue it.