Can't blame Sanchez for this loss..

[SMC]

Sperm, youre the one using the straw man because no one is saying Sanchez is above criticism. And you wouldnt have gloated in the game thread after the INT if you werent a hater.

That said, the battle lines have been clearly drawn.

1. Sanchez is better vs. Sanchez has not improved.

2. Sanchez deserves credit for what he has done well vs. Sanchez deserves no credit because he sucks

3. Sanchez can improve further vs. Sanchez is what he is

The defenders agree Sanchez needs to improve and has made costly mistakes. The haters agree with that, of course, but none of the defender's points.

[Klecko73isGod]

Sperm, youre the one using the straw man because no one is saying Sanchez is above criticism. And you wouldnt have gloated in the game thread after the INT if you werent a hater.

That said, the battle lines have been clearly drawn.

1. Sanchez is better vs. Sanchez has not improved.

2. Sanchez deserves credit for what he has done well vs. Sanchez deserves no credit because he sucks

3. Sanchez can improve further vs. Sanchez is what he is

The defenders agree Sanchez needs to improve and has made costly mistakes. The haters agree with that, of course, but none of the defender's points.

This is what I just don't get. Sanchez defenders come right out and give specific examples of mistakes and things Sanchez needs to improve on and the Sanchez haters shout back that you're saying that you're not allowed to criticize Sanchez. Glad I'm not the only one who noticed.

BG is right, the Sanchez haters have adopted the Penningtonologist debate style.

[Sperm Edwards]

Sperm, youre the one using the straw man because no one is saying Sanchez is above criticism. And you wouldnt have gloated in the game thread after the INT if you werent a hater.

That said, the battle lines have been clearly drawn.

1. Sanchez is better vs. Sanchez has not improved.

2. Sanchez deserves credit for what he has done well vs. Sanchez deserves no credit because he sucks

3. Sanchez can improve further vs. Sanchez is what he is

The defenders agree Sanchez needs to improve and has made costly mistakes. The haters agree with that, of course, but none of the defender's points.

Not true. Any time there is any unflattering critique of something he's done, tons of people chime in with excuses and referrals to passionate fans ashaters or mindlessly negative members of society or other similarly descriptive personal insults, like you have just done once again and do repeatedly.

And what friggin' "battle lines" are you talking about? What is Sanchez, your friggin' girlfriend that you reflexively lash out personally at people who dare point out poor play when he's made a poor play? The only battle line I see is this: people of a variety of opinions who allow and engage in discussion back & forth, and people who launch personal attacks and insults when someone disagrees with them or doesn't watch games in their personally approved fashion. You don't like it when people don't share your opinion and lash out & insult them when they don't. That is drawing battle lines.

Your last line is just fabricated to the point of the absurd. When he made some nice plays, including an absolutely perfect throw to Plaxico, or how I actually had confidence we could come back from 2 TD down in the 4th Q with Sanchez in there, I wrote it and not in any way like I was grudgingly admitting anything as though it made me sad to say so.

So your position, along with a few select others, is that one can be critical of Sanchez as long as that opinion is not expressed outwardly.

[Sperm Edwards]

One doesn't need ot

This is what I just don't get. Sanchez defenders come right out and give specific examples of mistakes and things Sanchez needs to improve on and the Sanchez haters shout back that you're saying that you're not allowed to criticize Sanchez. Glad I'm not the only one who noticed.

BG is right, the Sanchez haters have adopted the Penningtonologist debate style.

And you're engaging in the defense-of-Herm debate style. Criticize Sanchez and you're a hater. Used to be, at one time, criticize Herm and you're racist. Nothing you say, short of falling in line and admitting seeing the error of one's ways and finally seeing the light, will stop from being painted with a broad brush that suggests only people with deep-seeded personal flaws and issues can have a dissenting opinion from yours.

For example, I'll say I don't think he sees or surveys the field (unless the OL gives him 6+ seconds) and it contributes to both not seeing that a receiver is covered by a second defender and that it also causes him to miss other open receivers. This isn't countered with "You're wrong and here are 5 examples of him proving you wrong from just yesterday's game." It's countered with personal insults like you're doing again now for the umpteenth time.

[Klecko73isGod]

One doesn't need ot

And you're engaging in the defense-of-Herm debate style. Criticize Sanchez and you're a hater. Used to be, at one time, criticize Herm and you're racist. Nothing you say, short of falling in line and admitting seeing the error of one's ways and finally seeing the light, will stop from being painted with a broad brush that suggests only people with deep-seeded personal flaws and issues can have a dissenting opinion from yours.

For example, I'll say I don't think he sees or surveys the field (unless the OL gives him 6+ seconds) and it contributes to both not seeing that a receiver is covered by a second defender and that it also causes him to miss other open receivers. This isn't countered with "You're wrong and here are 5 examples of him proving you wrong from just yesterday's game." It's countered with personal insults like you're doing again now for the umpteenth time.

How am I personally insulting you, especially if I am painting with a broad brush?

I think you are amplifying the 1-3 glaring mistakes Sanchez makes in a game and assigning it to every single incomplete pass which is utter garbage.

You seem to want Sanchez to be perfect and nothing less will be acceptable. Well if that's what you're waiting for, make yourself comfortable because its gonna be a long wait because the Jets will never have a QB that meets your impossibly high standards.

Drew Brees didn't lead the Saints to a single first down until like midway through the second quarter in the season opener. I wonder if there were any Saints fans flipping out over his lackluster performance.

[T0mShane]

The Sanchez-as-future-star movement is the most insecure, hair-triggered bunch since the Herm-is-a-Super-Bowl-quality-coach movement.

[Matt39]

The Sanchez-as-future-star movement is the most insecure, hair-triggered bunch since the Herm-is-a-Super-Bowl-quality-coach movement.

You're exaggerating. With Herm and Chad you knew we'd never be able to beat the good teams. Even last week, I actually thought the Jets could win the game down two scores with Sanchez. He's won playoff games we weren't supposed to win. There is something there.

He's not nearly as bad as we're making him out to be. The defense getting pushed around so far and looking old and slow is our biggest problem, followed by our offensive line and then Blair Thomas reincarnated lining up in the backfield.

[jason423]

The problem with the Jets run game on Sunday is that nobody in the league respects Shonn Greene or LT as a big play threat off a handoff. I think Greene had two big first half runs (I know one was 15 and the other I think was 12?) and LT had one run for 9. But the other teams dont fear it. Im not a big proponent of wasting money on running backs but you do need players that can make guys miss if there is a hole to get to the next level. Neither of our guys are going to make anyone miss them if they break the first wave. When a guy like McFadden or Peterson goes 1 yard, 1 yard, -1 yard, 10 yards, 3 yards, 15 yards I think those two big runs in a close game spook the defense and force coordinators to make adjustments. They fear that the 15 is going to turn into a 30 or 40 yarder at some point if they are not careful. When the Jets get that type of contribution I think the feeling is that the defense has already seen the best the Jets can offer.

The Jets need more consistency out of the running game especially because Sanchez and the offense do not function well in the 2nd or 3rd and longer situations. Greene's median yards per carry by game are 3.5, 2.0, and 1.0. LTs are 3.0, 2.0, and 4.5. The two combined are 3, 2, and 2. I think its very difficult for the Jets offense to play well when half of your carries are going for less than 2 yards and there is limited threat of a big play. The Jets offense stalls way to much to have carries go for so little.

[SMC]

Not true. Any time there is any unflattering critique of something he's done, tons of people chime in with excuses and referrals to passionate fans ashaters or mindlessly negative members of society or other similarly descriptive personal insults, like you have just done once again and do repeatedly.

And what friggin' "battle lines" are you talking about? What is Sanchez, your friggin' girlfriend that you reflexively lash out personally at people who dare point out poor play when he's made a poor play? The only battle line I see is this: people of a variety of opinions who allow and engage in discussion back & forth, and people who launch personal attacks and insults when someone disagrees with them or doesn't watch games in their personally approved fashion. You don't like it when people don't share your opinion and lash out & insult them when they don't. That is drawing battle lines.

Your last line is just fabricated to the point of the absurd. When he made some nice plays, including an absolutely perfect throw to Plaxico, or how I actually had confidence we could come back from 2 TD down in the 4th Q with Sanchez in there, I wrote it and not in any way like I was grudgingly admitting anything as though it made me sad to say so.

So your position, along with a few select others, is that one can be critical of Sanchez as long as that opinion is not expressed outwardly.

The "battle lines" is the discussion. That is, two sides to the debate. Don't play the fool, it doesn't become you.

And no one is insulting you. Where are you being insulted. What? Because you're being called a hater? Come on, you know you are, embrace it. A non hater doesn't gloat after the INT which you clearly did in the game thread. Own up to your own actions.

Again, you LOVE the strawman argument. No one is saying you can't express your criticism of Sanchez openly. As such, stop claiming it. What I wrote in the three points were stated by the haters in this thread and others. It's not rocket science. The positions have been clearly stated.

[JustInFudge]

Not true. Any time there is any unflattering critique of something he's done, tons of people chime in with excuses and referrals to passionate fans ashaters or mindlessly negative members of society or other similarly descriptive personal insults, like you have just done once again and do repeatedly.

With stuff like this...the Sanchez debate is now tiresome. Nobody is saying he's above criticism and the fact you lectured me of all people is laughable. That's the card you guys pull when those who thinks he's playing well actually make a good point.

At the end of the day, none of you are as good as me when I was a hater of the model. And now, nobody is a better supported. Either side of the fence, I'm the best.

The problem with the Jets run game on Sunday is that nobody in the league respects Shonn Greene or LT as a big play threat off a handoff. I think Greene had two big first half runs (I know one was 15 and the other I think was 12?) and LT had one run for 9. But the other teams dont fear it. Im not a big proponent of wasting money on running backs but you do need players that can make guys miss if there is a hole to get to the next level. Neither of our guys are going to make anyone miss them if they break the first wave. When a guy like McFadden or Peterson goes 1 yard, 1 yard, -1 yard, 10 yards, 3 yards, 15 yards I think those two big runs in a close game spook the defense and force coordinators to make adjustments. They fear that the 15 is going to turn into a 30 or 40 yarder at some point if they are not careful. When the Jets get that type of contribution I think the feeling is that the defense has already seen the best the Jets can offer.

The Jets need more consistency out of the running game especially because Sanchez and the offense do not function well in the 2nd or 3rd and longer situations. Greene's median yards per carry by game are 3.5, 2.0, and 1.0. LTs are 3.0, 2.0, and 4.5. The two combined are 3, 2, and 2. I think its very difficult for the Jets offense to play well when half of your carries are going for less than 2 yards and there is limited threat of a big play. The Jets offense stalls way to much to have carries go for so little.

This is what I meant when I said no running game. We dont have anyone that scares you and we dont have line that physically dominates in the run game like it used to. I dont think the Jets have had a runner who scared a defense outside Leon for a long time, but we had a line that scared the sh*t of out teams. Now we dont have that and there is even more pressure on Sanchez then ever to make the offense succeed.

[Sperm Edwards]

With stuff like this...the Sanchez debate is now tiresome. Nobody is saying he's above criticism and the fact you lectured me of all people is laughable. That's the card you guys pull when those who thinks he's playing well actually make a good point.

At the end of the day, none of you are as good as me when I was a hater of the model. And now, nobody is a better supported. Either side of the fence, I'm the best.

People act like he's above criticism when virtually any such remark about one of his bad plays is responded to with broad-based insults about the person making the observation.

[Matt39]

People act like he's above criticism when virtually any such remark about one of his bad plays is responded to with broad-based insults about the person making the observation.

I dont think thats fair. Its been building for a while now, but a lot of folks here make it seem like Sanchez is the only reason the Jets have looked like sh*t out of the gate.

[JustInFudge]

People act like he's above criticism when virtually any such remark about one of his bad plays is responded to with broad-based insults about the person making the observation.

Are you referring to being called a "hater"? Otherwise I dont really see the insults. Actually think this is a fairly civil debates (which is surprising), some smart a$$ "improvement" "63.7" "Winner" type jabs are being thrown but I havent seen insults.

[SMC]

People act like he's above criticism when virtually any such remark about one of his bad plays is responded to with broad-based insults about the person making the observation.

Jeesh, the strawman is alive and kicking.

NO ONE, and I repeat NO ONE acts like Sanchez is above criticism. Thus, why do you keep making such a statement?

And what "broad-based insults" are you referring to? Is it the term "hater" that you find insulting?

[Sperm Edwards]

The "battle lines" is the discussion. That is, two sides to the debate. Don't play the fool, it doesn't become you.

And no one is insulting you. Where are you being insulted. What? Because you're being called a hater? Come on, you know you are, embrace it. A non hater doesn't gloat after the INT which you clearly did in the game thread. Own up to your own actions.

Again, you LOVE the strawman argument. No one is saying you can't express your criticism of Sanchez openly. As such, stop claiming it. What I wrote in the three points were stated by the haters in this thread and others. It's not rocket science. The positions have been clearly stated.

I didn't say I was insulted. I said you were dishing out insults, which you were and are. You can't just disagree. You feel the need to label someone making the critique with what you clearly feel is a derogatory term as it refers to a fan of the team.

And I was hardly gloating. Gloating suggests I take some pleasure in Sanchez making unnecessary turnovers. You're going to tell me you never saw John Hall miss a FG and said something akin to, "Friggin Hall. I knew he was going to miss it."? If or when you did, were you "gloating" or is that merely how you expressed your disgust with the play (or kick)? Unless you hate the Jets, it is of course the latter. I'm not digging through the thread but I think I said 2 comments. The first was like "Do I even need to say it?" and the second was along the lines of "Yeah he's improved tremendously." Both were in response to his pick where he threw into triple coverage, with an outside possibility that he only thought it was single coverage and didn't see anyone else. In a total non-pressure situation where throwing it away was an effortless thing to do. No one made a great play. No one disguised coverage. It was terrible judgment reminiscent of a time when Rex had to implement his remedial red-yellow-green system.

I did think we had a good chance of coming back with him at the helm even down 2 TD in the 4th quarter (again), and said as much at the time.

[Sperm Edwards]

I dont think thats fair. Its been building for a while now, but a lot of folks here make it seem like Sanchez is the only reason the Jets have looked like sh*t out of the gate.

I haven't seen that. No one I've seen honestly thinks Sanchez is the only reason deserving of any blame or is the #1 problem through first 3 games.

[Sperm Edwards]

Jeesh, the strawman is alive and kicking.

NO ONE, and I repeat NO ONE acts like Sanchez is above criticism. Thus, why do you keep making such a statement?

And what "broad-based insults" are you referring to? Is it the term "hater" that you find insulting?

What strawman are you talking about? I make a comment and the next comment is directed at me rather than what I've posted. That is acting like Sanchez is above criticism.

[NYJ37/12]

I love Sanchez. I think that's pretty clear in my posts. That being said, he is not above anything. The guy makes some dumb throws in almost every game, that will happen when, 1. your throwing 43 passes and 2. your human. Please find me one elite qb who has every had the perfect game that so many jet fans expect this kid to have every week, just one.

why do some of us have such unrealistic expectations from our qb? What more could he have done on Sunday, oh wait I know, throw that ONE pass out of bounds, that would have made all the difference.

Some of us dont realize what we have until we no longer have it.

[SMC]

What strawman are you talking about? I make a comment and the next comment is directed at me rather than what I've posted. That is acting like Sanchez is above criticism.

We're like in parallel dimensions. I don't see where anyone is even remotely implying he is above criticism, but you do and that's why I say you're using the strawman.

And, again, I ask you--is it the term "hater" that you think is insulting? Or is it something else?

Aten, EY, and Rutgers are self-proclaimed haters. I ask them, do you find that term insulting?

[RutgersJetFan]

Aten, EY, and Rutgers are self-proclaimed haters. I ask them, do you find that term insulting?

No, but I do find the application to be pretty stupid. That you think it's self-proclaimed is even more ridiculous.

[RutgersJetFan]

What strawman are you talking about? I make a comment and the next comment is directed at me rather than what I've posted. That is acting like Sanchez is above criticism.

This. Judge Sanchez on results and you're a moron for not acknowledging the immeasurable notion of potential. Argue further and you're a hater. Then if you take the humorous approach, you're branded a dickhead. And never forget, YOU'RE the one who's making this discussion difficult.

[Aten]

Aten, EY, and Rutgers are self-proclaimed haters. I ask them, do you find that term insulting?

No, I find that term stupid, so I don't generally use it and don't remember ever having done so in reference to myself. If I had, I'd probably have taken undue umbrage and accused myself of hating Puerto Ricans or something.

[RutgersJetFan]

No, I find that term stupid, so I don't generally use it and don't remember ever having done so in reference to myself. If I had, I'd probably have taken undue umbrage and accused myself of hating Puerto Ricans or something.

See! See! There's the dickheadedness! It's RUINING the board!!!

[Vicious89x]

See! See! There's the dickheadedness! It's RUINING the board!!!

Can I post a spiderman pic now?

[JustInFudge]

This. Judge Sanchez on results and you're a moron for not acknowledging the immeasurable notion of potential. Argue further and you're a hater. Then if you take the humorous approach, you're branded a dickhead. And never forget, YOU'RE the one who's making this discussion difficult.

Wanna hug?

You new wave of Sanchez haters are sensitive. Go back and read my manuals. You guys are doing it all wrong.

[Matt39]

This. Judge Sanchez on results and you're a moron for not acknowledging the immeasurable notion of potential. Argue further and you're a hater. Then if you take the humorous approach, you're branded a dickhead. And never forget, YOU'RE the one who's making this discussion difficult.

You do come off as a dickhead though. So does your boy Aten.

[lancemehl]

I would love it if you went back and actually watched every Packers game from 2009 and every Saints game from 2008.

I'd be willing to bet your opinion of both Brees and Rodgers would be very similar to what it is of Sanchez right now.

And no, that is not me making an excuse for Sanchez. If fact, quite the contrary. Both of those guys made bad passes here and there and threw boneheaded picks that came back to bite them later in games. It's one of the many reasons those teams missed the playoffs.

Most people look at their overall stats and wonder how those teams didn't win more. I'd be willing to bet their fan bases, you know, the people who actually watch every game they play, had plenty of people like you who bitched about Brees and Rodgers the same way you are bitching about Sanchez now,

The reality is that Sanchez is playing better. The run game is also significantly worse which helps put him in worse situations on third down more often and the o-line is not protecting him as well as they have in the past. It also doesn't help to have an arrogant moron as offensive coordinator who is incapable of making adjustments.

Sanchez is never going to be perfect, but guess what neither is Tom Brady, whose four picks were a huge part of the reason the Pats lost today. The guy threw four picks all of last year, and then threw four in one game. It happens to the best of them.

It is getting borderline insane. Forget everything else and just look at the f---ing numbers. We haven't scored less than 24 points yet. The guy is up in comp % to 63. He already has 6 TD's and yes, four picks....................3 in the first half and meaningless. Just short of 900 yards in three games. and most of all---when we were down 14 in the fourth WE ALL STILL BELIEVED. I heard him compared to Henne today. It is pretty nuts. I can't understand what it is. Is is the mexican thing? I wouldn't be surprised. Look at his record and his stats from this year (since we all know that year 3 is pretty much the coming out year for most) and he is clearly the best Jets QB we've had.

I just don't know. lmao What does he have to do? 70% absolutely NO picks? does he need to return kicks? Ludicrous

[RutgersJetFan]

You do come off as a dickhead though. So does your boy Aten.

Ah yes, so says the guy who spent a good day or two excusing legit bigotry.

[RutgersJetFan]

Wanna hug?

Yes actually. I would like a hug very much.

[RutgersJetFan]

Can I post a spiderman pic now?

I don't even understand why you're asking. If that wasn't your cue to begin with, then we've seriously been miscommunicating your role in this organzation at the meetings.

[Matt39]

Ah yes, so says the guy who spent a good day or two excusing legit bigotry.

Yeah, that's exactly what I did. Feel free to link those posts.

The dead poet society posters this place has attracted just aren't funny and talk to guys that have been posting here for a while like a bunch of assholes. Its bizarre.

[Aten]

Ah yes, so says the guy who spent a good day or two excusing legit bigotry.

Is that what that dude's deal is? He keeps giving me these cryptic little replies where he's obviously trying to gotcha me or something but I can never figure out exactly what he's talking about to the point that I'm able to respond.

[Klecko73isGod]

Yes actually. I would like a hug very much.

[RutgersJetFan]

Is that what that dude's deal is? He keeps giving me these cryptic little replies where he's obviously trying to gotcha me or something but I can never figure out exactly what he's talking about to the point that I'm able to respond.

Dean Pritchard syndrome. This is me leaving, this is me leaving.

[Vicious89x]

I don't even understand why you're asking. If that wasn't your cue to begin with, then we've seriously been miscommunicating your role in this organzation at the meetings.