Character vs. Talent

[AFJF]

Well, when Mangini was here and having some marginal success, it seemed that a lot of people liked his theory of building with character and leadership. Once things got ugly, he was an idiot for choosing character and leadership over talent.

"We don't need choir boys, this is the NFL, you win with talent"

"Bring in some thugs that know how to play football"

"Oh great, he was a captain of his college team, who cares. Mangini is clueless. Get us football players".

Then Rex entered the picture and everybody was happy becuase he convinced Tanny to pass up on character in favor of talent. When he had success early on, people liked that theory.

Now, it seems we've come full circle. When you make it a mission to acquire uber-talented players and completely disregard character...well, we see what happens.

[SayNoToDMC]

Mangini ****ed up cause he went overboard on the whole character thing and assigned way to much value to it (See Boarhunter) plus he was just a sh*tty coach

Rex understands it takes talent to win but over the last few years he's let all the leadership and high character type guys who could actually police the locker room like he had in Baltimore take a walk. There Tone would have got smacked in the mouth the second this sh*t started, here Rex seemed to encourage and enable Santonio all year cause he wants to be everyone's buddy.

[shawn306]

If you have the guys in lockeroom that can keep (i.e. Thomas Jones, Tony Richardson, Damien Woody, Sean Ellis) guys in line then Rex can be Rex.

In hindsight, the lack of having those kind of guys in the lockeroom hurt this team alot more than I think any of us could have imagined.

[Lupz27]

Both sides of the ball have these mouthy high talented players, the difference is the Defensive players never QUIT, while the offensive players did quit. This is a testemant to Rex needing to coach the whole team, his D players love him and would never quit on him, sure he didn't have the best year with this defensive unit but they did not quit, they might have pointed fingers after the season was over, but not QUIT. Rex needs to get his pulse on the offensive side of the ball and get those players to play for him and not QUIT, like they did this year. If he can't do this then he will be just a D-Coordinator for the rest of his career starting in 2013, allbeit a dam good one to, I never wan't to see us lose Rex as our D coach, and for that to happen he needs to become a Head Coach or 2012 will be his last season with the Jets.

[Smashmouth]

What I think about this issue is you should try to build with character but not take it too extreme. Skill players always have a way about them and an ego, a good coach will know how to deal with such players. What I liked about Manginis approach was he built this team in the trenches on offense he built with guys like Mangold and Brick and made moves to bring in guys like Faneca and Woody on Defense he brought in Jenkins who when healthy was a monster in the middle. These were high character guys as well as talented. But if a player comes along that seems to fit talent wise but might be looked at as trouble thats when the coach needs to step in and work some magic.

I have said this before and I feel strongly that a little of both Mangini and Rex would have been good for this organization. I think Tanny is absolutely worthless and has no idea how to build a football team and I do think The coaches on the Jets during Tannys tenure have made the calls and in that case Rex has done a very poor job personnel wise.

[Kleckineau]

If you have the guys in lockeroom that can keep (i.e. Thomas Jones, Tony Richardson, Damien Woody, Sean Ellis) guys in line then Rex can be Rex.

In hindsight, the lack of having those kind of guys in the lockeroom hurt this team alot more than I think any of us could have imagined.

Excellent point.

But we still need someone with cred to admit Sanchez stinks.

[F.Chowds]

Both sides of the ball have these mouthy high talented players, the difference is the Defensive players never QUIT, while the offensive players did quit. This is a testemant to Rex needing to coach the whole team, his D players love him and would never quit on him, sure he didn't have the best year with this defensive unit but they did not quit, they might have pointed fingers after the season was over, but not QUIT. Rex needs to get his pulse on the offensive side of the ball and get those players to play for him and not QUIT, like they did this year. If he can't do this then he will be just a D-Coordinator for the rest of his career starting in 2013, allbeit a dam good one to, I never wan't to see us lose Rex as our D coach, and for that to happen he needs to become a Head Coach or 2012 will be his last season with the Jets.

They did end the year with the 5th best D in the league.. I am just saying

[Bugg]

They did end the year with the 5th best D in the league.. I am just saying

5th best how?Rankings mean NOTHING. They couldn't get off the field vs. a mess of teams like the Pats, Raiders and Giants. And as bad as Sanchez was he didn't let Tebow march 95 yards for a TD.

[Il Mostro]

They did end the year with the 5th best D in the league.. I am just saying

Try a ranking of 20th in defensive points allowed/points per game. And the D choked with balls slapping their face when it came to crunch time. The Denver choke was EPIC.

[Matt39]

Ray Lewis has high football character.

There's a way of finding talent that cares about winning.

[Sperm Edwards]

Ray Lewis has high football character.

There's a way of finding talent that cares about winning.

Worse scumbag in football = Holmes

Worse scumbag in life = Lewis

[Matt39]

Worse scumbag in football = Holmes

Worse scumbag in life = Lewis

Yes.

[Bleedin Green]

Worse scumbag in football = Holmes

Worse scumbag in life = Lewis

I have to say, at least a few times a season when hearing the NFL try to make Lewis out to be this amazing figure that all of the NFL and it's fans should look up to I find myself thinking, "am I the only one who remembers he killed those guys?"

[MTJ06]

I dont know why people say its Character Vs Talent as if high character players are less talented, and highly talented players have less character.

Why cant we have both? We have plenty of players on the team already who do.

[jason423]

The issue with guys like Holmes, and pretty much every star WR in the NFL, is when things go bad they tank it. The problem is compounded when you dont have leaders on the team to speak up (i.e. Sanchez) or guys are on the bench injured (Tomlinson) during critical stretches. This year they had 3 guys that were an issue in Holmes, Burress, and Mason. None was happy in the offense early on and made their displeasure known. In some bizarre way the Jets thought they handled it by shipping Mason out to Houston and giving Brandon Moore, the leader of the other group of players, a captains tag. But 3 guys is enough to really ruin things. 2 guys is more than enough, which is why the Jets shipped out Kerry Rhodes before he got to Braylon Edwards who was his buddy off the field.

You go back to the game where Matthew Mulligan was flipping out on the sideline after his millionth penalty of the season. Everyone should have seen it then, I dont know who they claimed he was fighting with (some coach I think) with Keller holding him back, but thats the sign of a guy getting picked on badly during the week that simply hit a breaking point. The coach is the guy that put it over the top, but that buildup I can guarantee came from whispers in the locker room about how bad Mulligan was with the team.

[Sperm Edwards]

The issue with guys like Holmes, and pretty much every star WR in the NFL, is when things go bad they tank it. The problem is compounded when you dont have leaders on the team to speak up (i.e. Sanchez) or guys are on the bench injured (Tomlinson) during critical stretches. This year they had 3 guys that were an issue in Holmes, Burress, and Mason. None was happy in the offense early on and made their displeasure known. In some bizarre way the Jets thought they handled it by shipping Mason out to Houston and giving Brandon Moore, the leader of the other group of players, a captains tag. But 3 guys is enough to really ruin things. 2 guys is more than enough, which is why the Jets shipped out Kerry Rhodes before he got to Braylon Edwards who was his buddy off the field.

You go back to the game where Matthew Mulligan was flipping out on the sideline after his millionth penalty of the season. Everyone should have seen it then, I dont know who they claimed he was fighting with (some coach I think) with Keller holding him back, but thats the sign of a guy getting picked on badly during the week that simply hit a breaking point. The coach is the guy that put it over the top, but that buildup I can guarantee came from whispers in the locker room about how bad Mulligan was with the team.

Agree with a lot of this but don't agree regarding Mulligan. He was terrible and after his millionth penalty, as you put it, players are entitled to say something to him. One here or there and good teammates say "shake it off", "forget about it", etc. and give him an encouraging pat on his tushy. After that many, human nature is going to step in, particularly in something as emotional as playing competitive sports, for an emotional HC like Rex to boot. These guys are people not robots, and any of them can flip out on anyone else if you catch them at the wrong time or after repeated offenses.

I think it's why a QB who turns the ball over so much, in the absence of a history of doing so much better to fall back on, can't straighten out other guys making dumb penalties and plays. If they respect Sanchez in the huddle it's only relative, in comparison to a douchebag like Holmes being in there, or an even bigger screw-up than Sanchez (like Mulligan) being there, as well.

[MTJ06]

The issue with guys like Holmes, and pretty much every star WR in the NFL, is when things go bad they tank it.

I am going to disagree that pretty much every star receiver in the NFL acts the way holmes did. Sure there have been some diva receivers over the years, but most top receivers dont quit on their teams the way holmes did.

And on another note I probably wouldnt even put holmes in the star wr category.

[Bleedin Green]

I am going to disagree that pretty much every star receiver in the NFL acts the way holmes did. Sure there have been some diva receivers over the years, but most top receivers dont quit on their teams the way holmes did.

And on another note I probably wouldnt even put holmes in the star wr category.

That's what makes this scenario even worse. Holmes is fitting himself into the category of one of the worst all-time WR douchebags, with the likes of Moss and Owens, but on his best day in his prime isn't anywhere near as good as either of those guys were even in their later years. He's pretty good, and that's about it. There's not enough there to justify the "we'll put up with it for now because he's that good" crap that teams struggled with for years with those two, and yet even they never met a team who didn't eventually get fed up with their crap.

[flgreen]

Some really good posts in this thread.

In the end, the issue is with Rex.

He has to make it very clear to these guys that they can be loose cannons, but they can’t disrupt, and divide the team.

If he can’t, or won’t do that, I suspect, unfortunately he will be gone next season. This is really his cross roads, as to whether he was just a flash in the pan that gave us hope, or a true long time winning HC.

[Bleedin Green]

Some really good posts in this thread.

In the end, the issue is with Rex.

He has to make it very clear to these guys that they can be loose cannons, but they can’t disrupt, and divide the team.

If he can’t, or won’t do that, I suspect, unfortunately he will be gone next season. This is really his cross roads, as to whether he was just a flash in the pan that gave us hope, or a true long time winning HC.

If the words we've been hearing these past few days are even slightly true, I'd bet money that this is on the horizon. If they really do plan on keeping both Schotty and Holmes around while leaving Sanchez as the unquestioned and unchallenged starter, both Rex and Tanny will be out of work by this time next year.

[jason423]

I am going to disagree that pretty much every star receiver in the NFL acts the way holmes did. Sure there have been some diva receivers over the years, but most top receivers dont quit on their teams the way holmes did.

And on another note I probably wouldnt even put holmes in the star wr category.

I see it so many times though. Steve Smith dogged it for years. TOs history is well known. Randy Moss would choose which years he wanted to play and which he didnt. Dwayne Bowe is a dog. DeSean Jackson is a joke.

Guys like Larry Fitzgerald and Andre Johnson are the exceptions. Once these guys make a name for themselves their big interest is getting on ESPN and getting paid more money. Playing on an 8-8 team that throws the ball 5 yards isnt getting them either.I remember back in 2005 when Coles just gave up on the team and he isnt half the WR these other guys are. Vinny even said it a few times on his radio spots and he was as close to Coles as anyone where he would talk about some picks being caused by LC giving up on routes to early (this was when Bollinger was in the games). When Vinny was in for the final home game he made an incredible catch for him because he liked Vinny. Its just a me-first position and the less they let the guys get hit the more me-first they will be.

[MTJ06]

That's what makes this scenario even worse. Holmes is fitting himself into the category of one of the worst all-time WR douchebags, with the likes of Moss and Owens, but on his best day in his prime isn't anywhere near as good as either of those guys were even in their later years. He's pretty good, and that's about it. There's not enough there to justify the "we'll put up with it for now because he's that good" crap that teams struggled with for years with those two, and yet even they never met a team who didn't eventually get fed up with their crap.

In my opinion holmes is a complimentary piece, a #2 wr. I dont think he is a #1 who demands the ball with his play and can do it by himself. Everybody talks about the great 2009 he had, but he was just part of a group that performed extremely well that year.

Hines Ward...........95...1167...6

santonio homles...79...1248...5

Heath Miller.........76...789...6

Mike Wallace.......39...756...6

I think holmes was hurt by the downgrade from Braylon to Burress and the downfall of the Oline, as the Jets didnt have anybody who could stretch the field and wouldnt have been able to even if they did because of the poor Oline play.

Hopefully the Jets shore up the oline and bring in a #1 wr, and if we keep holmes around he gets more balls and the attitude diminishes.

[jack48]

Well, when Mangini was here and having some marginal success, it seemed that a lot of people liked his theory of building with character and leadership. Once things got ugly, he was an idiot for choosing character and leadership over talent.

"We don't need choir boys, this is the NFL, you win with talent"

"Bring in some thugs that know how to play football"

"Oh great, he was a captain of his college team, who cares. Mangini is clueless. Get us football players".

Then Rex entered the picture and everybody was happy becuase he convinced Tanny to pass up on character in favor of talent. When he had success early on, people liked that theory.

Now, it seems we've come full circle. When you make it a mission to acquire uber-talented players and completely disregard character...well, we see what happens.

Don't forget that Mangini moved on to Cleveland and further proved the futility of his philosophy. Mangini modeled himself as Little BB and he was was full of himself. After all, big BB had signed a punk like Randy Moss already and later Albert Haynesworth. Fact of the matter is, a coach or a GM needs some discernment. Nothing wrong with signing a Bart Scott, who gives up his body so other guys make plays. Sure he talks, but he does not sell out teammates. He is a good teammate. The high sign he gave the press was a real disappointment, but you cannot discount the fact that he has been ok in the locker room. Frankly, what McElroy just did borders on locker room treason. This is supposed to be a character guy. Sounds like he just wants out. No, a GM has to be ablle to determine which guy is just a big mouth and which guy is a maniac, and the coach has to monitor events so the the big mouth does not morph into a maniac. Rex has no filter. How can he filter others?

[JustInFudge]

Well, when Mangini was here and having some marginal success, it seemed that a lot of people liked his theory of building with character and leadership. Once things got ugly, he was an idiot for choosing character and leadership over talent.

"We don't need choir boys, this is the NFL, you win with talent"

"Bring in some thugs that know how to play football"

"Oh great, he was a captain of his college team, who cares. Mangini is clueless. Get us football players".

Then Rex entered the picture and everybody was happy becuase he convinced Tanny to pass up on character in favor of talent. When he had success early on, people liked that theory.

Now, it seems we've come full circle. When you make it a mission to acquire uber-talented players and completely disregard character...well, we see what happens.

Out of curiousity - who exactly on the team besides Holmes is a "low character" guy?

[flgreen]

Out of curiousity - who exactly on the team besides Holmes is a "low character" guy?

With out any inside info I suspect Plax. Not sure about Greene.

[MTJ06]

I see it so many times though. Steve Smith dogged it for years. TOs history is well known. Randy Moss would choose which years he wanted to play and which he didnt. Dwayne Bowe is a dog. DeSean Jackson is a joke.

Guys like Larry Fitzgerald and Andre Johnson are the exceptions. Once these guys make a name for themselves their big interest is getting on ESPN and getting paid more money. Playing on an 8-8 team that throws the ball 5 yards isnt getting them either.I remember back in 2005 when Coles just gave up on the team and he isnt half the WR these other guys are. Vinny even said it a few times on his radio spots and he was as close to Coles as anyone where he would talk about some picks being caused by LC giving up on routes to early (this was when Bollinger was in the games). When Vinny was in for the final home game he made an incredible catch for him because he liked Vinny. Its just a me-first position and the less they let the guys get hit the more me-first they will be.

What you say about the above guys doggin it is definetly true, however is it really "pretty much every star receiver"? I dont think so. Guys like Johnson and Fitgerald arent as few and far between as you think. Guys like Calvin Johnson, Roddy White, Wes Welker, Jordy Nelson, Mike Wallace, Hakeem Nicks, Marques Colston and others just go about their business on a weekly basis without any troubles.

The reason why the guys you mentioned stand out is because of the media attention that they get for their missteps, while the quiet performers dont get the same media attention. Think about it when you mention guys like TO and Moss their NFL careers started 13-15 years ago, during that time there were plenty of star receivers who werent divas.

[JustInFudge]

With out any inside info I suspect Plax. Not sure about Greene.

Plax I obviously could see but I feel like he's been a good seed knowing that he's got one more pay day left in his career. Greene - I know nothing about in terms of locker room pressence.

I'm just thinking, I dont really see this a low character team outside Holmes, maybe Plax and Cro (both they both seem to be good teammates and Holmes sure did last year).

[Matt39]

Out of curiousity - who exactly on the team besides Holmes is a "low character" guy?

Sanchez

[Il Mostro]

Out of curiousity - who exactly on the team besides Holmes is a "low character" guy?

I am on the fence as to whether the Jets resident sperm donor is "high character" or "lowlife".

[JustInFudge]

Sanchez

Agreed...and there you go. The unquestioned leader of the team is a scumbag too.

[jason423]

What you say about the above guys doggin it is definetly true, however is it really "pretty much every star receiver"? I dont think so. Guys like Johnson and Fitgerald arent as few and far between as you think. Guys like Calvin Johnson, Roddy White, Wes Welker, Jordy Nelson, Mike Wallace, Hakeem Nicks, Marques Colston and others just go about their business on a weekly basis without any troubles.

The reason why the guys you mentioned stand out is because of the media attention that they get for their missteps, while the quiet performers dont get the same media attention. Think about it when you mention guys like TO and Moss their NFL careers started 13-15 years ago, during that time there were plenty of star receivers who werent divas.

But most of those players you mentioned are either establishing themselves as stars or have yet to be on a bad team once established. Welker is on a team that wins 13 games every year. Its the difference between the Seattle version of Deion Branch and the New England version. One guy sulks and another tries. To become stars they had to be pretty good at one point and goal 1 is to make money. If guys sulk before they make money (Bowe and Jackson for example) you have to stay away. Buy guys like Holmes, who maybe were an off the field problem, were rarely on the field problems because they played on winning teams and they needed to get paid. Holmes got paid and ended up on a bad team in the first pay year which is just a disaster waiting to happen. For someone like Calvin Johnson or Hakeem Nicks you wont know until they get paid the same way Santonio does.

[MTJ06]

Plax I obviously could see but I feel like he's been a good seed knowing that he's got one more pay day left in his career. Greene - I know nothing about in terms of locker room pressence.

I'm just thinking, I dont really see this a low character team outside Holmes, maybe Plax and Cro (both they both seem to be good teammates and Holmes sure did last year).

I think its a matter of addition and subtraction. The Jets moved on from several high character players this year who were also good players. Woody , Ellis, Richardson and Cotchery were all replaced by guys who were young or rookies like Conner and Wilkerson, people who underperformed like hunter and another cancer in mason.

While we lost character in the players who left, what type of character are young players or underperformers able to add to team chemistry? Where people would listen to Woody, Ellis, Richardson, and Cotchery who would listen to the guys who replaced them?

[JustInFudge]

I think its a matter of addition and subtraction. The Jets moved on from several high character players this year who were also good players. Woody , Ellis, Richardson and Cotchery were all replaced by guys who were young or rookies like Conner and Wilkerson, people who underperformed like hunter and another cancer in mason.

While we lost character in the players who left, what type of character are young players or underperformers able to add to team chemistry? Where people would listen to Woody, Ellis, Richardson, and Cotchery who would listen to the guys who replaced them?

Well, I think the expectation is that they have plenty of veterans - maybe one could step up and be a leader. LT, Greene, Mangold, DBrick. Revis, Scott, Harris, Pouha, Leonhard. Its not like we're rolling out a bunch of tolders.

[MTJ06]

But most of those players you mentioned are either establishing themselves as stars or have yet to be on a bad team once established. Welker is on a team that wins 13 games every year. Its the difference between the Seattle version of Deion Branch and the New England version. One guy sulks and another tries. To become stars they had to be pretty good at one point and goal 1 is to make money. If guys sulk before they make money (Bowe and Jackson for example) you have to stay away. Buy guys like Holmes, who maybe were an off the field problem, were rarely on the field problems because they played on winning teams and they needed to get paid. Holmes got paid and ended up on a bad team in the first pay year which is just a disaster waiting to happen. For someone like Calvin Johnson or Hakeem Nicks you wont know until they get paid the same way Santonio does.

I guess perhaps we will never know then because the guys I mentioned, and most actual star receivers, are porfessionals who play hard all the time and raise the level of their teammates so that they are winning games. holmes ending up on a bad team the first year after he got paid was in part his doing, because of his behavior, his doings, his lack of effort, his quitting on the team.

When you mention Deon Branch is he really a star receiver? NO, and thats the reason he underperformed is Seattle.

Calvin Johnson gets paid already.

Current Salary Information

Contract:6 yr(s) / $55,500,000 Signing Bonus $14,000,000 Average Salary $9,250,000 End Year:2012 Free Agent:2013 / Unrestricted Base Salary S. Bonus Misc. Bonus Cap Hit 2007 -285,000 2,333,333 3,918,000 6,536,333 2008 -1,883,438 2,333,333 1,420,800 5,637,571 2009 -2,580,125 2,333,333 1,420,800 6,334,258 2010- 4,000,000 2,333,333 1,420,800 7,754,133 2011- 8,875,000 2,333,333 1,420,800 12,629,133 2012- 14,000,000 2,333,333 1,420,800 17,754,133

http://www.spotrac.c...calvin-johnson/

[dbatesman]

Welker is on a team that wins 13 games every year.

Plus...well, you know.