Tank every season until we get a Franchise QB?

[rillo]

13 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

We even do that wrong. We can't even tank properly.

[bealeb319]

Haven't the browns been trying this for awhile now? How has it worked out for them?

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk

[CrazyCarl40]

6 hours ago, bealeb319 said:

Haven't the browns been trying this for awhile now? How has it worked out for them?

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk

It hasn't and I don't think it will until they fire Kevin Costner from their front office. 

[Bruce Harper]

Good idea.  Build up a culture of losing and then we will "flick the switch" when we think we have our franchise guy.

[RutgersJetFan]

3 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

It hasn't and I don't think it will until they fire Kevin Costner from their front office. 

Well maybe if Frank Langella would shut up and let him do his job then they wouldn't be in this mess in the first place. 

[The Crusher]

15 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Loser.

OMG I already warned the children.  Now you?  

[RutgersJetFan]

3 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

It hasn't and I don't think it will until they fire Kevin Costner from their front office. 

Well maybe if Frank Langella would shut his old ass up and let Tin Cup do his job then this wouldn't be a problem. 

[southparkcpa]

15 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

We even do that wrong. We can't even tank properly.

Realistically and statistically we tank pretty well.

We are considered a bottom 20 percent franchise by many since 1980.

 

[Sperm Edwards]

1 minute ago, southparkcpa said:

Realistically and statistically we tank pretty well.

We are considered a bottom 20 percent franchise by many since 1980.

 

Tanking properly would lead to a franchise QB (a good one). We have crappy seasons either when there's no good QB coming out, or crappy enough to be crappy but not crappy enough to pick highly enough.

• We finish 3-13 and get a WR. Yeah, a really good one, and certainly not a bust of a pick, but a WR. In a WR-rich draft where there were equal or better ones later.
• Then we go 1-15 and the best QB we could get our hands on (since passing on Marino) stays in school because our HC/GM wants a 3-yr plan and a rookie QB doesn't fit into that time window. If we'd tanked a year later instead, then said QB has no senior year to return to.
• We go 4-12, needed to be 3-13 to get a QB. We go 6-10 the top 2 QBs are Manuel and Geno, and it's such a weak draft up top (when we also get a top-15 #1 pick for Revis) that 2 guards actually get drafted in the top 10...and both stink.
• We go 4-12 years before that, and the cream of the crop (though the 3rd one taken) is Jay Cutler. We end up with Kellen Clemens as our QB of the future. Sure we got the very solid Ferguson at #4, but you can still finish in last place with the game's best LT having a career year.
• We have enough ammunition to get to #4-6 and it's only enough to get D-Slob or Sanchez or Gholston, instead of Palmer, Ryan, or staying even pat, making multiple high picks at 1/3 the cap space as any of them. The worst was 2007: we're 3-13 heading into the last game. We are a LOCK to finish with the #2 pick, so long as we don't win the last, meaningless game (against a 4-win team who ends up picking ahead of us after we beat them). They get Matt Ryan; we get Vernon Gholston (and the following year we give up our #1 and #2 and endless piles of money to trade up and draft (and then later, extend) Mark Sanchez.
• We extend Sanchez and then tank the 2012 season (no, not on purpose). But the extension itself leads the GM who extended him to not consider a QB in round 2, instead opting to trade that pick and another pick for Stephen Hill. And the dominoes fall.
• We draft a QB in 2013 to recover asap from the Sanchez errors and it's Geno, but despite his poor rookie season, we still drafted Geno highly enough (and he showed just enough to close out the season) in 2013 that we then pass on a few promising QBs in the 2014 draft, when such QBs are actually available without requiring a top 2 (or even a top 15) pick.
• So then behind more of Geno's poor play (as well as the rest of the team and coaching) we stink again in '14 to finish with the #6 overall pick, but we needed a top-2 pick to get a franchise QB that year (or surrender that #6 and one or two more 1st rounders plus 2nd rounder to move up 4 slots). Then the obvious choice is another DE/DT in Williams, who (great as he'll be) plays a position we've drafted in round 1 in 3 of the prior 4 drafts (really hitting on 2 of the 3), and it may be a net-zero gain long term because we're going to lose Mo (since he'll no longer be needed so badly).

So I respectfully disagree; we suck at tanking. Now if you don't mind I'm going to get drunk and spend the day in my bedroom closet with the lights out.

[southparkcpa]

3 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Tanking properly would lead to a franchise QB (a good one). We have crappy seasons either when there's no good QB coming out, or crappy enough to be crappy but not crappy enough to pick highly enough.

• We finish 3-13 and get a WR. Yeah, a really good one, and certainly not a bust of a pick, but a WR. In a WR-rich draft where there were equal or better ones later.
• Then we go 1-15 and the best QB we could get our hands on (since passing on Marino) stays in school because our HC/GM wants a 3-yr plan and a rookie QB doesn't fit into that time window. If we'd tanked a year later instead, then said QB has no senior year to return to.
• We go 4-12, needed to be 3-13 to get a QB. We go 6-10 the top 2 QBs are Manuel and Geno, and it's such a weak draft up top (when we also get a top-15 #1 pick for Revis) that 2 guards actually get drafted in the top 10...and both stink.
• We go 4-12 years before that, and the cream of the crop (though the 3rd one taken) is Jay Cutler. We end up with Kellen Clemens as our QB of the future. Sure we got the very solid Ferguson at #4, but you can still finish in last place with the game's best LT having a career year.
• We have enough ammunition to get to #4-6 and it's only enough to get D-Slob or Sanchez or Gholston, instead of Palmer, Ryan, or staying even pat, making multiple high picks at 1/3 the cap space as any of them. The worst was 2007: we're 3-13 heading into the last game. We are a LOCK to finish with the #2 pick, so long as we don't win the last, meaningless game (against a 4-win team who ends up picking ahead of us after we beat them). They get Matt Ryan; we get Vernon Gholston (and the following year we give up our #1 and #2 and endless piles of money to trade up and draft (and then later, extend) Mark Sanchez.
• We extend Sanchez and then tank the 2012 season (no, not on purpose). But the extension itself leads the GM who extended him to not consider a QB in round 2, instead opting to trade that pick and another pick for Stephen Hill. And the dominoes fall.
• We draft a QB in 2013 to recover asap from the Sanchez errors and it's Geno, but despite his poor rookie season, we still drafted Geno highly enough (and he showed just enough to close out the season) in 2013 that we then pass on a few promising QBs in the 2014 draft, when such QBs are actually available without requiring a top 2 (or even a top 15) pick.
• So then behind more of Geno's poor play (as well as the rest of the team and coaching) we stink again in '14 to finish with the #6 overall pick, but we needed a top-2 pick to get a franchise QB that year (or surrender that #6 and one or two more 1st rounders plus 2nd rounder to move up 4 slots). Then the obvious choice is another DE/DT in Williams, who (great as he'll be) plays a position we've drafted in round 1 in 3 of the prior 4 drafts (really hitting on 2 of the 3), and it may be a net-zero gain long term because we're going to lose Mo (since he'll no longer be needed so badly).

So I respectfully disagree; we suck at tanking. Now if you don't mind I'm going to get drunk and spend the day in my bedroom closet with the lights out.

No..we are above average at Tanking, we suck at timing.  Its hard to argue that GOD "hates" the JETS. The Steelers have ONE bad year and get Ben. Colts suck once and get Luck.  We get Gholsten.  make no mistake, Flacco was available but we also suck at drafting.

[Villain The Foe]

34 minutes ago, southparkcpa said:

No..we are above average at Tanking, we suck at timing.  Its hard to argue that GOD "hates" the JETS. The Steelers have ONE bad year and get Ben. Colts suck once and get Luck.  We get Gholsten.  make no mistake, Flacco was available but we also suck at drafting.

I dont think I've ever seen the Jets tank a season. I've seen them have bad seasons. But to say "tank", na. I've never seen the Jets do that. One of the most famous Jets lines comes from Herm Edwards, and he's talking specifically about tanking seasons. The Colts? That was a tank. The Bucs to secure WInston? That was a week 17 tank. I've never seen the Jets do that ever. 

"When you start telling me it doesn't matter, then retire. Get out...because it matters"! -Herm Edwards. 

[Sperm Edwards]

31 minutes ago, southparkcpa said:

No..we are above average at Tanking, we suck at timing.  Its hard to argue that GOD "hates" the JETS. The Steelers have ONE bad year and get Ben. Colts suck once and get Luck.  We get Gholsten.  make no mistake, Flacco was available but we also suck at drafting.

I guess. I can't kill them for Flacco. There isn't anyone in the country that had him as a top 10 pick, let alone #6 overall, and many had him outside round 1 outright. Even the Ravens, who loved him, traded out of the #8 slot rather than draft Flacco there. 

[bassmaster2]

On ‎6‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 7:45 PM, Ex-Rex said:

Fitz is the ONLY answer right now however. There is no QB better one than Fitz on the roster right now. Right now the Jets would be in serious trouble if Geno Smith had to start.

The Jets are a 6 win teams this year with Fitz or Geno , he wants too much money for a lower tear QB , you watch the last bills game

 

 

 

o

[Colgateman]

On 6/2/2016 at 11:34 AM, Villain The Foe said:

This is true, but I dont believe that rookies having good rookie seasons mean that they are franchise QB's as well. 

Vince Young (rookie probowler)

RG3 (rookie probowler)

At the end of the day you have to develop talent, and with that will come bumpy roads ahead. 

 

I will say though, Cam had a really good rookie season. Its his 2nd best season of his career to be honest. 

Yeah, I shouldn't of included Cam in the bad rookie season, as he set multiple records as a rookie, but you can't judge every quarterback from their first few years whether they do good or bad, I think they should be given at least 3 maybe 4, to show their worth

[Villain The Foe]

55 minutes ago, Colgateman said:

Yeah, I shouldn't of included Cam in the bad rookie season, as he set multiple records as a rookie, but you can't judge every quarterback from their first few years whether they do good or bad, I think they should be given at least 3 maybe 4, to show their worth

This is precisely why Im interested in seeing Geno get a shot. Those first 2 seasons were just ridiculous. I'll for sure put his 3rd season on him, you dont put yourself in a bad situation over money, especially $600. Granted, he probably wasnt expecting that reaction, but the fact that he's a millionaire and he seen how much it meant to IK to get that money back, even if Geno was in the right, he should have paid the money just to shut him up. However, when situations like this come about it never looks good for you unless you really look at the situation for what it is. He got to sit and learn a system while not being criticized for every mistake while learning. 

People clowning Geno over that situation could turn into being the best thing to ever happen to his career. Fitz knew the system inside and out, so there would have been some things that just based on learning curve Geno may not have known/understood and if it would have cost us a game it would have potentially wrecked his situation as a Jet. He got to play the background and make as many mistakes as needed until he got things right and had a proper understanding without unnecessary hate from fans and a media that will write anything because they're nothing but savages. 

This is really why I'm so adamant to see Geno play. Your failures is nothing more than your learning opportunity. If it doesnt work out the it wasnt meant to be, but if it does then it doesnt matter what anyone says or feels for as long as we got a quarterback. I dont believe that you interfere with that process by bringing in a bridge. The bridge did his job last year. Two QB's under rookie contracts had a year to learn the system under wraps. 

 

Let Geno spin the football and see what he's made of. 

[BowlesMovement]

You cannot tank the season by signing Fitzpatrick, you have to try to win with Geno this year. I challenge anyone to watch Peyton Mannings first year and give me 18 reasons why Geno can't be every bit as good as Manning!

[Larz]

no. 

rodgers  drafted #24

ben  drafted #11

you don't have to have the #1 pick, just use it wisely

 

 

[ylekram]

31 minutes ago, Larz said:

no. 

rodgers  drafted #24

ben  drafted #11

you don't have to have the #1 pick, just use it wisely

 

 

yea, I thought for sure the jets were going to grab derek carr @17. I was sure of it. then they draft a safety. the one time I am sure of a qb, they don't draft him and he goes on to start 2 straight years and has played really well.

[Villain The Foe]

1 hour ago, ylekram said:

yea, I thought for sure the jets were going to grab derek carr @17. I was sure of it. then they draft a safety. the one time I am sure of a qb, they don't draft him and he goes on to start 2 straight years and has played really well.

Top 100 player at that. 

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, ylekram said:

yea, I thought for sure the jets were going to grab derek carr @17. I was sure of it. then they draft a safety. the one time I am sure of a qb, they don't draft him and he goes on to start 2 straight years and has played really well.

You should have been in the draft room, then, and duct tape the mouths and wrists of everyone in that 2014 Jets' war room. 

Safety is such terrible round 1 value, even in the late teens to early 20s, unless you end up with a near Ed Reed II. They're just too cheaply and easily found in free agency. First round should be for the type of player that nobody lets go of outside of unique circumstances where a team has two great ones and have to let go of one for cap reasons, therefore you need to find him in the draft. A round 1 QB is a no-brainer value for this reason (ditto DL, pass rushing LB, WR, LT, CB). Safety - and arguably ILB - are poorer value in this regard. Pryor's 5th year option is going to be around $8M by then. I don't know if that's going to be a slam dunk. By the time Lee hits year 5 it'll be closer to $10M, if not more, since pass-rushing OLBs will be counted in his calculation. 

It's not an absolute reason to take or pass up on a player, because there are obviously exceptions to every rule, but I just think round 1 is or should be for the type of player you just can't get your hands on in FA, or if you can it's at a (today's numbers) cap-busting price tag of $14M/year or more. Safety, TE, ILB...these positions are just too easily found in FA for under $10M/year (and in the case of a safety, barely $5M/year).

[NYs Stepchild]

On 6/3/2016 at 0:42 PM, Villain The Foe said:

I dont think I've ever seen the Jets tank a season. I've seen them have bad seasons. But to say "tank", na. I've never seen the Jets do that. One of the most famous Jets lines comes from Herm Edwards, and he's talking specifically about tanking seasons. The Colts? That was a tank. The Bucs to secure WInston? That was a week 17 tank. I've never seen the Jets do that ever. 

"When you start telling me it doesn't matter, then retire. Get out...because it matters"! -Herm Edwards. 

He wasn't talking about tanking. He was talking about his maddening habit of playing not to lose.

Only coach in the league that would run 2 times up the middle then kick a field goal on 3rd down when you're tied in a playoff game...Then miss and do it again in overtime

He always said a punt was as good as a score. He also said all you can ask for is to be close in the 4th quarter with a chance to win...I hate that guy. 

[Villain The Foe]

Just now, NYs Stepchild said:

He wasn't talking about tanking. He was talking about his maddening habit of playing not to lose.

Only coach in the league that would run 2 times up the middle then kick a field goal on 3rd down when you're tied in a playoff game...Then miss and do it again in overtime

He always said a punt was as good as a score. He also said all you can ask for is to be close in the 4th quarter with a chance to win...I hate that guy. 

 

 

Of course he wasnt talking about tanking, he was talking about not even entertaining the premise of tanking while making a very public statement that if any player feels like cashing it in that they should retire. 

 

 

[NYs Stepchild]

1 minute ago, Villain The Foe said:

 

 

Of course he wasnt talking about tanking, he was talking about not even entertaining the premise of tanking while making a very public statement that if any player feels like cashing it in that they should retire. 

 

 

Work harder not smarter is Herm's motto. Well his daddy told him that. 

[Villain The Foe]

24 minutes ago, NYs Stepchild said:

Work harder not smarter is Herm's motto. Well his daddy told him that. 

If that's what his daddy said, and he took that advice and it led him to being in the NFL as a player/coach for about 30 years...maybe he was right. 

 

What do you think? 

[ylekram]

50 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

You should have been in the draft room, then, and duct tape the mouths and wrists of everyone in that 2014 Jets' war room. 

Safety is such terrible round 1 value, even in the late teens to early 20s, unless you end up with a near Ed Reed II. They're just too cheaply and easily found in free agency. First round should be for the type of player that nobody lets go of outside of unique circumstances where a team has two great ones and have to let go of one for cap reasons, therefore you need to find him in the draft. A round 1 QB is a no-brainer value for this reason (ditto DL, pass rushing LB, WR, LT, CB). Safety - and arguably ILB - are poorer value in this regard. Pryor's 5th year option is going to be around $8M by then. I don't know if that's going to be a slam dunk. By the time Lee hits year 5 it'll be closer to $10M, if not more, since pass-rushing OLBs will be counted in his calculation. 

It's not an absolute reason to take or pass up on a player, because there are obviously exceptions to every rule, but I just think round 1 is or should be for the type of player you just can't get your hands on in FA, or if you can it's at a (today's numbers) cap-busting price tag of $14M/year or more. Safety, TE, ILB...these positions are just too easily found in FA for under $10M/year (and in the case of a safety, barely $5M/year).

ya, nothing against pryor or lee for that matter. they could turn into great players. and I would never say never, but I agree. the 1st round is for certain positions, especially @17. the pryor pick blew my mind. there was a young, pro bowl strong safety available that year in free agency, outbid Denver enough and he could of been yours and keep your 1st rounder

[UpstateJetsGuru]

On June 1, 2016 at 6:37 PM, Sperm Edwards said:

There is a difference between tanking the season and locking the team into a QB who clearly is neither going to be the team's future nor is he going to QB the team to a SB victory. If the team thought so the wouldn't be dillydallying with him and they'd already have this SB-winning QB locked up at the bargain price of $14M/season with at least 2 years guaranteed.

Not signing Fitzpatrick doesn't = tanking the season because signing Fitzpatrick doesn't = contending for a SB and he's not a young QB who just needs some reps to become the team's franchise QB.

 

Wow, too bad you're not GM.

[Larz]

5 hours ago, ylekram said:

yea, I thought for sure the jets were going to grab derek carr @17. I was sure of it. then they draft a safety. the one time I am sure of a qb, they don't draft him and he goes on to start 2 straight years and has played really well.

carr and bridgewater if I'm not mistaken.

[the Claw]

If I found out this team tanked a season, that would be it. I would be pissed. I would absolutely switch teams and cast them from my mind.

Until august. Then all will have been forgiven no matter who is at qb. Screw it all- love this goddamned team.

[Greenseed4]

The Jets have held the #1 overall pick in two drafts.  The 1996 draft, where we picked Keyshawn Johnson, and 1997 where we traded down from #1 to get James Farrior at #8 overall.  

In 1996, the first QB taken that year was Tony Banks in the second round (#47 overall). The next QB drafted that year was Bobby Hoying (in the 3rd round).

In 1997, the first QB taken was Jim Druckenmiller (#26 overall), and then Jake Plummer in the second round, (#42 overall). 

The point is, when the Jets "tanked", and had the #1 overall pick,  they didn't use it on a QB.  When the Jets "tanked" there wasn't a QB worth using the #1 pick on.  In fact, when we "tanked" we don't even stay at the #1 overall pick. HALF the time we traded out of it; we passed on Orlando Pace to get James Farrior--to then play him out of position.  So the premise about tanking is retarded.  Even if we DID tank an entire season, what about this organization makes you think we would pick a QB after doing so? or the right QB, or even "tank" in the right season to get a QB prospect worth "tanking" for?  It's very tricky.  Cause you can't start tanking too late.  You have to do it right off the bat.  But "right off the bat" isn't enough time to know if you're getting a good prospect--or one that won't regress, or get injured, or return to school the following year.  That means a lot of good timing goes into tanking, and even better guesswork. Then, by the time the stars align, and you get him your team is likely so decimated from lack of winning that it doesn't matter anyway.  Look at the team Manning inherited and how long it took him to get to the SB with the Colts.  (hint: it took Manning 8 years to get his first SB, then another 10 to get his second).  

We are better off building a team that will attract veteran FA QBs who know that we are only one piece away...than to try to start from the QB up.  Don't get me wrong.  Swinging for the fences every year isn't bad practice. Rookie QBs are way cheaper than proven starters, and getting them early means a chance at keeping them forever.  But this whole idea that being worse will make us better is backwards. 

[Sperm Edwards]

12 hours ago, UpstateJetsGuru said:

Wow, too bad you're not GM.

No need. Maccagnan is already following this course of action.  

[Colgateman]

15 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

You should have been in the draft room, then, and duct tape the mouths and wrists of everyone in that 2014 Jets' war room. 

Safety is such terrible round 1 value, even in the late teens to early 20s, unless you end up with a near Ed Reed II. They're just too cheaply and easily found in free agency. First round should be for the type of player that nobody lets go of outside of unique circumstances where a team has two great ones and have to let go of one for cap reasons, therefore you need to find him in the draft. A round 1 QB is a no-brainer value for this reason (ditto DL, pass rushing LB, WR, LT, CB). Safety - and arguably ILB - are poorer value in this regard. Pryor's 5th year option is going to be around $8M by then. I don't know if that's going to be a slam dunk. By the time Lee hits year 5 it'll be closer to $10M, if not more, since pass-rushing OLBs will be counted in his calculation. 

It's not an absolute reason to take or pass up on a player, because there are obviously exceptions to every rule, but I just think round 1 is or should be for the type of player you just can't get your hands on in FA, or if you can it's at a (today's numbers) cap-busting price tag of $14M/year or more. Safety, TE, ILB...these positions are just too easily found in FA for under $10M/year (and in the case of a safety, barely $5M/year).

Well, I agree with you for the most part, but Calvin played pretty well last year and saved the Jets on a lot of plays, if he can develop into half the player reed or Earl Thomas are, he'd be well worth the pick

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, Colgateman said:

Well, I agree with you for the most part, but Calvin played pretty well last year and saved the Jets on a lot of plays, if he can develop into half the player reed or Earl Thomas are, he'd be well worth the pick

Yeah, and as good as Thomas is, as a pro bowl starter in the prime of his career at age 24-25, how much did he get -- a $10M/year extension (effectively 5 years $45M)? Frickin' Ryan Fitzpatrick, a marginal starter at age 33-34, has higher demands than that.

That's how low the value of a safety is compared to other positions.

[PatsFanTX]

yea, I thought for sure the jets were going to grab derek carr @17. I was sure of it. then they draft a safety. the one time I am sure of a qb, they don't draft him and he goes on to start 2 straight years and has played really well.

Derek Carr will shortly become a top 5 NFL QB.