Bowles Sees no Need to Play Young QB’s

[Dink and Drunk]

2 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

To me, this is Bowles showing his hand here.

IF he was safe this year, he would be playing the young guys and seeing what he has so the team can assess the QB's on the team and plan for drafting next year.

But by playing McCown, this tells me he is NOT safe, and that the only way to 'prove' he is worth keeping is to win as many games with a team that was picked to come dead last. 

It really is the only thing that makes sense to me as to why Josh McCown keeps getting sent out there every week.

With a JAG QB your team can run a competent offense. He can call audibles in response to coverage. Receivers can run option routes. The offensive line and QB can adjust protections in response to potential blitzes. The team can keep up motivation while fighting for a long shot playoff spot.

I think we have to assume the other 2 QBs are garbage at this point. Why hamper the development of a bunch of young players just to give some young low-ceiling QB some meaningless Dev time?

[Warfish]

19 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

No i read stuff that isn’t mindless drivel

Must be hard not reading your own posts as you write them.

[jetgreen13]

2 minutes ago, Dink and Drunk said:

Well, the alternative was what seemed to happen with Geno. Decide before hand that you are going to go with the rookie, and have a fake QB competition. How did that one work out.

Good QBs can prove themselves in camp. Wilson won the job, he was not expected to start ASAP. Brady started as QB#2, and rose up the depth chart quickly. Why not make your QB earn it just a bit?

well, seeing that you're a patriot fan, it's continuing to work out quite nicely for you..

i guess next, you'll help us understand why bowles needs an extension..

 

[Beerfish]

12 minutes ago, Dink and Drunk said:

Well, the alternative was what seemed to happen with Geno. Decide before hand that you are going to go with the rookie, and have a fake QB competition. How did that one work out.

Good QBs can prove themselves in camp. Wilson won the job, he was not expected to start ASAP. Brady started as QB#2, and rose up the depth chart quickly. Why not make your QB earn it just a bit?

We found out that Geno was no good and we found that out after giving him a real shot.  Then we moved on.  The Jets being the ultimate dumbasses they are do everything the opposite of what they should re QBs.

When they had a team with a legit chance to win they go with a snot nosed rookie in Sanchez rather than a competent game manager vet.

now that they have a far from winning building team they cling on to aging vets with no future like grim death.

[Dink and Drunk]

2 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

If Todd bowels was the coach of the pats way back when, Bledsoe would have been reinstated as the starting QB as soon as he became healthy.

 

Yep, I am not saying Bowels is a good coach. I gave him a very mixed review in my introduction post. He might have messed up the Brady Bledsoe thing. He has made a bunch of game management mistakes. His teams don't play for 60 min. They are undisciplined at times. I can go on, I watch Jets football.

What I am doing is defending his current handling of the QB situation from a set of bad critiques. If people think I am wrong, then attack the idea. Don't attack the source of the argument.  

[Dink and Drunk]

3 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

We found out that Geno was no good and we found that out after giving him a real shot.  Then we moved on.  The Jets being the ultimate dumbasses they are do everything the opposite of what they should re QBs.

When they had a team with a legit chance to win they go with a snot nosed rookie in Sanchez rather than a competent game manager vet.

now that they have a far from winning building team they cling on to aging vets with no future like grim death.

The key is about non-qb player development. It is not about "learning how to win". It is "learning how to play in a competent NFL offense". Every time I have seen Hack & Co. play they have been complete garbage. They see a single defensive wrinkle in preseason and they start to panic. I am not convinced they could run a competent Madden offense if given a few years at it (hyperbole, but get the point).

I tend to believe that the coach has more information than the fans on this one. Just because Todd has a ton of weakness, does not mean every single decision is a mistake. 

[Dink and Drunk]

9 minutes ago, jetgreen13 said:

well, seeing that you're a patriot fan, it's continuing to work out quite nicely for you..

i guess next, you'll help us understand why bowles needs an extension..

 

As I said to before. Critique the argument, not the source. <3

[jetgreen13]

if you're argument is bowles has given petty a fair shot & has based it on what's best for the franchise, we strongly disagree..

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, Augustiniak said:

all true and i will add that if mccagnan had any faith in either of his drafted qbs he wouldn't have signed mccown before the draft.  in a purge/rebuilding year it would have been easy not to sign a veteran.  what mccagnan won't say is that 1) he knows petty is a backup and hack sucks, 2) bowles was always going to start mccown, and 3) he was fully expecting to draft a qb in 2018 so everyone would hopefully forget about hackenberg.  

mccags signed kerley too, he obviously knew kerley would play over stewart and hansen.  that's how bowles rolls, he's easy to predict.

My point is more along the lines of it's not just Bowles to blame, so outing him as the #1 boogeyman is meh on logic. I'm not his biggest fan (to say the least) but what he's doing isn't at all unexpected for a coach in his shoes.

There is barely a HC without decent job security that's going to sacrifice himself for the greater good of getting Hackenberg live reps while he looks quite obviously 3rd-best in practice alone, behind 2 scrubs, practicing alongside and against players whose tendencies he has memorized already.

Thing is, most fans here are proceeding along the idea that because we haven't seen Hackenberg on TV, in live action against NFL starters, that means the Jets' coaches view him as a similar type of clean-slate unknown. 

"Bowles was always going to start McCown" because, limited as he is, he's still probably 5x the QB either of the other two are, no matter how many people scoff at it because joshmccownlolz.

[Stark]

33 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

To me, this is Bowles showing his hand here.

IF he was safe this year, he would be playing the young guys and seeing what he has so the team can assess the QB's on the team and plan for drafting next year.

But by playing McCown, this tells me he is NOT safe, and that the only way to 'prove' he is worth keeping is to win as many games with a team that was picked to come dead last. 

It really is the only thing that makes sense to me as to why Josh McCown keeps getting sent out there every week.

Bowles shouldn't be safe. Wins should not be the deciding factor for Bowles either. Yes, we were supposed to be the worst team in the NFL by some media members. Media is typically wrong. 

Bowles' problems are the same as they were when he was first hired. If you, the HC, do not show growth and ability to learn from your mistakes, why would we (JETS FANS) expect any player to be getting any type of developmental programs/show improvements on the field. 

Still way too many penalties, horrible use of T.O's, bad clock management, bad in-game decisions/lack of situational awareness. Team is still a rollercoaster week to week (players looking flat or out of it). Bowles' issues are still the same as Week 1 of Season 1 of his hire. Taking the QB situation out of it (which I think he as completely FUBAR'd) what has Bowles done well that would make an owner say, "Have to have Bowles, there are just too many positives and things that can't be replaced".

 

[MaxAF]

3 hours ago, johnnysd said:

You are right, I disagree. McClown is not a middle of the pack QB in game impact, he is a middle of the pack in EFFICIENCY  which is a function of scheme and padding your stats with 3rd down checkdowns instead of trying to make a play. He consistently chokes under pressure. Bowles learned nothing from Fitz he wants essentially his older clone. Bowles will not start a young QB unless forced to. Ever. I would fire him today.

We should have gone into camp with Hack, Mahomes or Watson (whoever we had higher rated), Petty and Kyle Sloter who we should have picked in the 7th and ran a REAL QB competition. At this point we would have some clarity at QB, instead of a bigger question mark than the beginning of the season.

God I hate what Bowles is doing to this team. Make no mistake, Bowles is hurting this franchise by even still being here, trying to protect his job.

 

I think we all know that McCown is no stellar QB but he has done fairly well in most games notably against the Pats, Falcons and the Bills. Don't be surprised to see Mac, Bowles and McCown back next year. Not saying I like that scenario but it wouldn't surprise me. And it will be difficult to gauge Petty or Hack with a couple games as to whether they are the future QBs for the Jets. I think the team is behind McCown and pulling him now may be detrimental to the players as a whole. In all honestly as I watched the Bucs game any QB would have struggled. He had no time at all to throw until late in the 4th when they went into prevent D.

[Augustiniak]

2 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

My point is more along the lines of it's not just Bowles to blame, so outing him as the #1 boogeyman is meh on logic. I'm not his biggest fan (to say the least) but what he's doing isn't at all unexpected for a coach in his shoes.

There is barely a HC without decent job security that's going to sacrifice himself for the greater good of getting Hackenberg live reps while he looks quite obviously 3rd-best in practice alone, behind 2 scrubs, practicing alongside and against players whose tendencies he has memorized already.

Thing is, most fans here are proceeding along the idea that because we haven't seen Hackenberg on TV, in live action against NFL starters, that means the Jets' coaches view him as a similar type of clean-slate unknown. 

bowles is doing anything to keep his job.  and yes, i believe both bowles and mccags have made up their minds about petty and hack.  i think that's why mccags signed mccown in the first place.  next draft will be very telling, especially if the jets lose the games they should and wind up with a top 10 pick.

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, Dink and Drunk said:

 

I am an outsider, but I completely agree both of these posts. Bowles is attempting to do exactly what the FO asked of him this offseason; show as much team improvement as possible. You can't ask him to do that, and then force him to change to worse a QB. Well you can, but good luck getting another good HC after.

As for next year, I think the Jets should do the following:

1. Re-sign McCown or another QB with some playing experience such as AJ McCarron. Do not overpay however, and keep deals short term.

2. Draft the QB who you think he the greatest chance of becoming a good starting QB. Don't worry about how "NFL ready" QB is day 1.

3. Retain one of the two young QBs to act as a back-up.

---

The reasoning:

This allows the Jets to function as a team next year. It does not force their hand into trying to draft a day 1 ready QB. It will make the rookie QB earn it, rather than just handing him the job. It also means that the rookie QB can completely focus on development. He does not have to learn the exact details of the game-plan each weak. 

 

Do not overpay, lol. Our GM more than doubled Josh McCown's next-best offer to the tune of $7.25m and counting, after forking over $12m for Ryan Fitzpatrick.

They have to draft a QB who doesn't need a year or three of coddling. Maccagnan used up that mulligan on Hackenberg (and frankly, along with Petty before him). You want to do that, then get a new GM to do it. He doesn't get to hide a 2018 1st rounder behind another useless veteran type (let alone another year of Josh McCown). 

The whole thing is QB development. They're not winning a SB with the stopgap solution, so there's little point in having him on the roster to give any HC the option of benching the kid in the interest of short term self-preservation.

[Dink and Drunk]

14 minutes ago, jetgreen13 said:

if you're argument is bowles has given petty a fair shot & has based it on what's best for the franchise, we strongly disagree..

No my argument is this:

When the FO says "we are going to judge the HC on X", don't blame the HC for doing everything in his power to do X. Criticize the FO for setting up that incentive in the first place. If you want a HC to develop new QBs, hire a HC to a long term deal. I am not the only one pointing this out. 

That point is completely independent of my thoughts on the weakness (and/or strengths) of Todd Bowles as a coach.

[Sperm Edwards]

10 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

bowles is doing anything to keep his job.  and yes, i believe both bowles and mccags have made up their minds about petty and hack.  i think that's why mccags signed mccown in the first place.  next draft will be very telling, especially if the jets lose the games they should and wind up with a top 10 pick.

I think Bowles and the other offensive coaches have made their minds up about Hackenberg and Petty. Maccagnan? I think he wanted this year to be Hackenberg's show, but he still isn't good enough to be 2nd string.

There is no justification or rationalization for a non-contender to sign Josh McCown to $6m guaranteed, plus $2m in playing time incentives, before the NFL draft. None.

McCown's role as a QB, to the extent there is one, is emergency or spot-starter on a playoff team whose real starter got injured. 

[RESNewYork]

Per NYJ quarterback coach, not Bowles

"This isn't Triple-A," quarterbacks coach Jeremy Bates said Tuesday. "We're going to play the best players that give us an opportunity to win at all positions. That's our philosophy. Josh is our starter."

"He continues to develop as a pro quarterback," Bates said. "He's learning to play fast, be more accurate. All those things he's working on."

"We're watching (Hackenberg and Petty) in the classroom, we're watching them in practice," Bates said. "They're running the (scout team) period and everything. They have to prepare and be ready.

"You've got 16 weeks. All 16 games are different. From Monday through Saturday, you're preparing for a subject, or a team if you will. Every day is different. The opportunity to be in the meeting room, study on their own, morning and night, is very valuable. They are grinding in the meeting room, and they're also preparing on the practice field extremely hard."

http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2017/11/why_is_christian_hackenberg_jets_third-string_qb.html#incart_river_index

 

 

[Dink and Drunk]

8 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The whole thing is QB development. They're not winning a SB with the stopgap solution so there's little point in having him on the roster to give any HC the option of benching the kid in the interest of short term self-preservation.

Just now, Sperm Edwards said:

I think Bowles and the other offensive coaches have made their minds up about Hackenberg and Petty. Maccagnan? I think he wanted this year to be Hackenberg's show, but he still isn't good enough to be 2nd string.

There is no justification or rationalization for a non-contender to sign Josh McCown to $6m guaranteed, plus $2m in playing time incentives, before the NFL draft. None.

McCown's role as a QB, to the extent there is one, is emergency or spot-starter on a playoff team whose real starter got injured. 

So you disagree that having a competent QB is necessary for player development? Let me repeat:

With a JAG QB your team can run a competent offense. He can call audibles in response to coverage. Receivers can run option routes. The offensive line and QB can adjust protections in response to potential blitzes. The team can keep up motivation while fighting for a long shot playoff spot. The key is about non-qb offensive player development. It is not about "learning how to win". It is "learning how to play in a competent NFL offense".

 

9 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

They have to draft a QB who doesn't need a year or three of coddling. Maccagnan used up that mulligan on Hackenberg (and frankly, along with Petty before him). You want to do that, then get a new GM to do it. He doesn't get to hide a 2018 1st rounder behind another useless veteran type (let alone another year of Josh McCown). 

That is a very good point about this GM running out of chances. I think that this is an argument for getting a new GM and giving him the choice to keep or fire TB. 

I understand the appeal of the plug and play rookie QB, but half the league might be drafting QB this draft. Pats are looking for JG 2.0, the 2004 class QBs are showing their age, Carson Palmer might be done, plus a ton of teams lack competent starters. There might be a run at QB, so I don't know if they Jets will get a plug & play guy. 

If the FO really wanted to tank for QB, they should have fired Bowles this offseason. Instead they gave him the space to potentially improve out of the premium pick range.

[jetgreen13]

2 minutes ago, Dink and Drunk said:

No my argument is this:

When the FO says "we are going to judge the HC on X", don't blame the HC for doing everything in his power to do X. Criticize the FO for setting up that incentive in the first place. If you want a HC to develop new QBs, hire a HC to a long term deal. I am not the only one pointing this out. 

That point is completely independent of my thoughts on the weakness (and/or strengths) of Todd Bowles as a coach.

fair points.. just please be mindful, all of them have been discussed here & elsewhere in great detail.. hell, i slammed maccagnan in this very thread for signing mccown.. bowles was going to try to pad his resume with any veteran JAG maccagnan was dumb enough to hand him..

[Pcola]

4 hours ago, Ex-Rex said:

That's what Petty and Hackenberg showed in pre season. Hackenberg is a total bust and Petty looks like a career journeyman backup type. At least that is what Bowles thinks, and he IS the HC at least for now. The young guys we should be worrying about are ArDarius Stewart and Chad Hansen. Stewart, I think, is a bust, but Hansen could be a good slot guy. Leggett is another of the young guys we need to see more of if he could ever get out of the trainers room. Brandon Shell is another that has to begin showing signs of development quickly. Jets totally need to move away from Wes Johnson and draft a center AND a guard to replace Winters who sucks.

I think Petty has shown he can play.  The past two preseasons he has been better than a lot of QBs, not just the trash on this team.  He just can’t stay healthy.

Bowles is strictly thinking here and now and could care less about the Jets future.  They way he has run the team the past three years, he is trying to mirror Marvin Lewis.  Don’t take any chances and by being mediocre, you can guarantee yourself a job for 10 years.  He won’t win sh*t but based on the way our organization has gone tha past 3 years, but he won’t have to.

I disagree with you on Stewart.  He is a WR from AL.  He is going to take some time.  He is much more athletic than Hanson and therefore has a much higher ceiling.  But going back to Bowles, he has no intention on playing young guys unless they are safeties.  

This should concern every Jets fan.  With this mentality, there is no way in hell he is going to permit Mac to use out top pick next year on a QB. Just more of the same trash that we have endured the past 27 years.  Short term band aids while we wait for our young defense to mature.  

I honestly don’t think Bowles and Macc are a good pair.  On one side you have a GM that has drafted 2 QBs, 2 WRs, that our HC, who doesn’t know squat about running an offense, refuses to play.  Yet we have a 39 yo QB and two older WRs that don’t have a future with this team beyond this season.

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, Pcola said:

 

. With this mentality, there is no way in hell. he is going to permit Mac to use out top pick next year on a QB.

Well it's not his call quite frankly. Bowles has always maintained that he will play the players that give him the best chance to win. If the rookie QB does that, then he's going to play him

[Sperm Edwards]

1 minute ago, Dink and Drunk said:

So you disagree that having a competent QB is necessary for player development? Let me repeat:

With a JAG QB your team can run a competent offense. He can call audibles in response to coverage. Receivers can run option routes. The offensive line and QB can adjust protections in response to potential blitzes. The team can keep up motivation while fighting for a long shot playoff spot. The key is about non-qb offensive player development. It is not about "learning how to win". It is "learning how to play in a competent NFL offense".

 

That is a very good point about this GM running out of chances. I think that this is an argument for getting a new GM and giving him the choice to keep or fire TB. 

I understand the appeal of the plug and play rookie QB, but half the league might be drafting QB this draft. Pats are looking for JG 2.0, the 2004 class QBs are showing their age, Carson Palmer might be done, plus a ton of teams lack competent starters. There might be a run at QB, so I don't know if they Jets will get a plug & play guy. 

If the FO really wanted to tank for QB, they should have fired Bowles this offseason. Instead they gave him the space to potentially improve out of the premium pick range.

Yes I absolutely disagree that having a competent QB is "necessary" for another QB's development. If that were the case then there would never have been a case of a QB developing in the absence of a competent QB. We all know that would be a silly claim.

Motivation shmotivation: Josh McCown is the QB. Josh McCown. The only motivation he provides is that he is neither Bryce Petty nor Christian Hackenberg. A serious GM would force his handpicked young QB/QBs out there (by forgoing the addition of the useless McCown) with a serious group of receivers or he'd provide a serious QB for a group of young receivers. McCown plus his castoff veteran receivers, or a raw QB paired with raw receivers, would both be unserious planning.

Frankly they should fire both Macc and Bowles after this season. Both have more than earned it. The alleged "they" who gave Bowles the space to improve out of the premium pick range is nonexistent. There is no "they"; there's only "he" in terms of the one who picked up McCown and others.

The only thing worse than keeping Macc and Bowles would be firing just one of them.

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, Sperm Edwards said:

 

The only thing worse than keeping Macc and Bowles would be firing just one of them.

3 GMs in 6 years is no way to run a franchise. 

[Augustiniak]

28 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I think Bowles and the other offensive coaches have made their minds up about Hackenberg and Petty. Maccagnan? I think he wanted this year to be Hackenberg's show, but he still isn't good enough to be 2nd string.

There is no justification or rationalization for a non-contender to sign Josh McCown to $6m guaranteed, plus $2m in playing time incentives, before the NFL draft. None.

McCown's role as a QB, to the extent there is one, is emergency or spot-starter on a playoff team whose real starter got injured. 

mccagnan has control over the roster.   he will decide whether or not to bring back mccown, and he will decide which qbs to pursue in the draft and in which rounds.  bowles has to work with what he's given.  so if mccags doesn't bring back mccown, and doesn't sign a veteran before the draft, that says something.  but the way he likes to do things, he will bring back mccown, say nothing else about the qb position before the draft, and we'll all be in the dark right up to the point where they make their pick.  all this after he strikes out hard pursuing cousins.

[Sperm Edwards]

Just now, UnitedWhofans said:

3 GMs in 6 years is no way to run a franchise. 

Keeping failures is no way to run a franchise.

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, Sperm Edwards said:

Keeping failures is no way to run a franchise.

Well given what I heard from Francessa today, he doesn't think its a total failure. Now I would trust his opinions over yours so...

[Sperm Edwards]

Just now, UnitedWhofans said:

Well given what I heard from Francessa today, he doesn't think its a total failure. Now I would trust his opinions over yours so...

I'm deeply moved by both Francessa's opinion and yours. We all are.

[Dink and Drunk]

2 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Yes I absolutely disagree that having a competent QB is "necessary" for another QB's development. If that were the case then there would never have been a case of a QB developing in the absence of a competent QB. We all know that would be a silly claim.

 

Did I misspeak? I was attempting to claim a competent QB is "necessary" for the development of the other offensive positions besides QB. I agree "necessary" might be too strong. How about "very helpful"? I was not talking about one QB's effect on another QB.

I was saying that having only garbage QBs will stunt the growth of OL, WR, TE, RB. 

[BigO]

22 hours ago, joewilly12 said:

If McCown is resigned as the starter next year without drafting a prospect at QB, I will for the first time not be watching Jets football. 

[Dink and Drunk]

23 minutes ago, jetgreen13 said:

fair points.. just please be mindful, all of them have been discussed here & elsewhere in great detail.. hell, i slammed maccagnan in this very thread for signing mccown.. bowles was going to try to pad his resume with any veteran JAG maccagnan was dumb enough to hand him..

I will try to be more mindful of that; I am not aware of the history of everyone's opinions on the situation. I am only looking at a snapshot.

I will also try to be more sensitive to "SOJ" type expressions of frustration. Not every post is trying to engage in a logical argument, and I have a tendency to be overly-analytic. Someone might say "Bowles did X, Fu.. Bowles", and yet not have a super good reason for not liking X. There is nothing wrong with that.

Is it ok if ask you folks to be mindful of something? I am commenting on stuff because I am interested in how your team proceeds from this interesting crossroads. I can see arguments for keeping and for ditching Bowles. I wanted to discuss his game planning and scheming at an X's and O's level. I tried to express that in my intro post. I get the sense that people would be more likely to engage with me if I demonstrate that I have rational opinions on this stuff, even if they are dissenting opinions. So here I am, posting on FA strategy and team development. 

[UnitedWhofans]

2 minutes ago, BigO said:

If McCown is resigned as the starter next year without drafting a prospect at QB, I will for the first time not be watching Jets football. 

I would show Maccagnan the door myself if that happened

[BigO]

22 hours ago, Stark said:

Nope. I don't think Bowles knows what the heck he is doing. Mac needs to get Lil Chris Johnson to agree to move on from him. 

Mac has full power - he has to admit this point.

[jetgreen13]

13 minutes ago, BigO said:

Mac has full power - he has to admit this point.

hopefully of his bowels.. 

certainly not over bowles..

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, Dink and Drunk said:

Did I misspeak? I was attempting to claim a competent QB is "necessary" for the development of the other offensive positions besides QB. I agree "necessary" might be too strong. How about "very helpful"? I was not talking about one QB's effect on another QB.

I was saying that having only garbage QBs will stunt the growth of OL, WR, TE, RB. 

My mistake then. I thought you were saying a starting QB on the roster was necessary for development of another starting QB on the roster.

[Saul Goodman]

Bowles is absolutely getting another year. He's got the team vastly exceeding expectations. The players play hard every week. Those are the 2017 benchmarks.

Maccagnan needs to get us a QB. His status should already be shaky with the stable of QB's he has put in place. 

[joewilly12]

8 minutes ago, Saul Goodman said:

Bowles is absolutely getting another year. He's got the team vastly exceeding expectations. The players play hard every week. Those are the 2017 benchmarks.

Maccagnan needs to get us a QB. His status should already be shaky with the stable of QB's he has put in place. 

Play hard every week?  What happened Sunday it looked like they didn't even show up.