Bell or draft?

[joewilly12]

1 minute ago, nycdan said:

Does the fact that James Conner came in and pretty much did everything Bell did without missing a beat give anyone pause about whether Bell is really as great as his numbera suggest?  Then Conner got hurt and Jaylen Samuels steps in and rushes for 150.  PIT reminds me of DEN in the early 2000s.  Every RB who gets a turn becomes a stud.  Davis, Portis, Gary, Anderson.  It didn't matter.  They all looked great.  But while Portis took his greatness to WAS, Gary and Anderson washed up when they left.  

I'm not saying Bell wasn't great in PIT, but I have reservations about his ability to do the same here (and hence be worth paying guaranteed mad money to for 5 years).

This tells me Pittsburgh is pretty damn good at drafting talented RB's!!!!!

[nycdan]

7 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

This tells me Pittsburgh is pretty damn good at drafting talented RB's!!!!!

Or perhaps they have a really good OL and good schemes which make RBs look better there than they would anywhere else.

[Creepy Lurker]

Just now, nycdan said:

Or perhaps they have a really good OL and good schemes which make RBs look better there than they would anywhere else.

This is far more likely. I wasn’t 100% sure since maybe James Conner was really good. I definitely attributed the situation/system as being at least partly responsible for Bell. Now I have more concerns than ever since another no name back looked great.

We need playmakers regardless and depending on who’s available will dictate how we spend. We can go with some other solid backs for a committee which has its own perks and then spend more on wideout/TE if any shake free. Tough to say but I am a little worried now after seeing yet ANOTHER Pittsburgh no name running back light it up. 

[Savage69]

3 minutes ago, nycdan said:

Or perhaps they have a really good OL and good schemes which make RBs look better there than they would anywhere else.

And as bad as our O=line is Crowell managed to break the Team record for yds in a single game..

[Matt39]

1 hour ago, Jetster said:

When Cannon dropped that beautifully thrown ball on 3rd down I closed my eyes & envisioned Bell plucking that ball gracefully out of the air, jump stepping inside the tackler as he stiff armed him to the ground & galloped along the sideline like he was skating on ice. 

Then I watched us punt the ball away.

Or any other back in the league...

[themeangreenkillingmachine]

Of all the positions, do teams most commonly find pro bowl/ Hall of Fame talent in later rounds (usually Rd 3-5)? 

Answer: running back

Why draft one young in the 5th Rd and pay him crumbs when you can get the same quality of play for $15 mil/yr

[Sperm Edwards]

On 12/16/2018 at 3:34 PM, slats said:

I get that, and if Bell was some straight-arrow kid coming off another strong season heading into free agency, I might be able to get on board, too. But this is a guy who's been suspended twice for substance abuse issues and decided to sit out this entire season rather than play for a perennial playoff contender -turning down $14M in the process- to save his body and get a big payday. As I've said many times, I support his right to do that, but I don't want the Jets to be the team that gives him that payday. Spending the year not under contract, he's also not subject to the league's drug testing policy. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that he's probably not pissing clean today.

He's just not the guy I want to see the Jets spend 8% of their salary cap on. He's got a ton of talent, but I don't think he's entitled to that kind of trust.  

I've felt the same way as you re RBs for as long as I can remember.

But then, since the cap is a fluid 4-year running total, this does bring back conversations about the wisdom of throwing $10m at McCown and other moves that were dead-end-dumb the day they were signed. Figure Bell would get 2-3 years guaranteed (even call it 3 years to make it as heavy a hitter as possible), well passing on paying McCown that much would have chopped away $3m/year x 3 years of it. Or Ijalana $5m for the year before that. When a team spends $15m on a year each from McCown and Ijalana - and offers right around that to rent Suh for 1 non-contending year - I have trouble passing on Bell because of the same money.

If it's because you don't want him in the locker room at any price, that'd be one thing.  But IMO if the team is going to waste through 50-80% of its $100m in cap room, at least use it in the attempt to surround Darnold with the best players possible. No they won't all hit, but I'd rather whiff trying for an elite offense than make a competitive bid for guaranteeing Clay Matthews or Kareem Jackson a couple years apiece. 

If we hire a new GM? That muddies it a bit for me. Honestly it depends who's available in March after some teams re-sign their players on the eve of FA. 

[slats]

19 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I've felt this way for as long as I can remember.

But then, since the cap is a fluid 4-year running total, this does bring back conversations about the wisdom of throwing $10m at McCown and other moves that were dead-end-dumb the day they were signed. Figure Bell would get 2-3 years guaranteed (even call it 3 years to make it as heavy a hitter as possible), well passing on paying McCown that much would have chopped away $3m/year x 3 years of it. Or Ijalana $5m for the year before that. When a team spends $15m on a year each from McCown and Ijalana - and offers right around that to rent Suh for 1 non-contending year - I have trouble passing on Bell because of the same money.

If it's because you don't want him in the locker room at any price, that'd be one thing.  But IMO if the team is going to waste through 50-80% of its $100m in cap room, at least use it in the attempt to surround Darnold with the best players possible. No they won't all hit, but I'd rather whiff trying for an elite offense than make a competitive bid for guaranteeing Clay Matthews or Kareem Jackson a couple years apiece. 

If we hire a new GM? That muddies it a bit for me. Honestly it depends who's available in March after some teams re-sign their players on the eve of FA. 

2

I'm not sure where I stand on not wanting him at any price. I might not. His teammates in Pittsburgh seem to have given him a collective good riddance. He's the rare diva who wants the ball less? His substance abuse suspensions are also troubling. I could quit weed for 30 years for a union job, he could do it for 10 for millions a year, I'd think. 

We'll see what happens. I don't think he'll want to sign with the Jets for reasons not dissimilar from Cousins or Suh choosing not to sign with the Jets. And as a fan of the Jets, he may even have more reasons not to sign here. But If I'm running the front office and have an interest in the player, I don't go chasing him at midnight Day One. I let the market set itself, first. Sitting out this year and the suspensions and the fact that he plays a low-value position in the NFL could all serve to bring his asking price much lower than he thinks it will be. I'd let him hear some reality from other teams before I got involved. 

Three high paying years guaranteed for a RB? Ugh, I'd really rather not. 

[Jetster]

1 hour ago, nycdan said:

Does the fact that James Conner came in and pretty much did everything Bell did without missing a beat give anyone pause about whether Bell is really as great as his numbera suggest?  Then Conner got hurt and Jaylen Samuels steps in and rushes for 150.  PIT reminds me of DEN in the early 2000s.  Every RB who gets a turn becomes a stud.  Davis, Portis, Gary, Anderson.  It didn't matter.  They all looked great.  But while Portis took his greatness to WAS, Gary and Anderson washed up when they left.  

I'm not saying Bell wasn't great in PIT, but I have reservations about his ability to do the same here (and hence be worth paying guaranteed mad money to for 5 years).

I live in New England and I just got home from a commute & was listening to Boston sports radio. The Patriots have given up 7.8 yards average per run over the last 3 games! Worst in FRANCHISE HISTORY! 

Lets put things into perspective. This isn't your fathers Patriots defense. Why is everyone trying to disparage Le'veon Bells talent? Why does any Jet fan care if we give Bell 16/17 million when we'll have 125 million dollars available? There aren't enough free agents to spend this money on, so, I'll take the guy that has been the #1 or #2 RB off the board in fantasy football for years.

I've watched Steelers games. I watched him play under the franchise tag & look great! I've never seen Bell play lacksadaically. In fact, he's so smooth, he doesn't even look like he's trying & than boom, he's off and running by people. We'll get the freshest Bell since his rookie season! DO NOT LET WOODY JOHNSON POCKET 16/17 million. 

I'd rather watch Darnold throwing passes to Bell than have Woody keep millions in his wallet.

[Sperm Edwards]

32 minutes ago, slats said:

I'm not sure where I stand on not wanting him at any price. I might not. His teammates in Pittsburgh seem to have given him a collective good riddance. He's the rare diva who wants the ball less? His substance abuse suspensions are also troubling. I could quit weed for 30 years for a union job, he could do it for 10 for millions a year, I'd think. 

We'll see what happens. I don't think he'll want to sign with the Jets for reasons not dissimilar from Cousins or Suh choosing not to sign with the Jets. And as a fan of the Jets, he may even have more reasons not to sign here. But If I'm running the front office and have an interest in the player, I don't go chasing him at midnight Day One. I let the market set itself, first. Sitting out this year and the suspensions and the fact that he plays a low-value position in the NFL could all serve to bring his asking price much lower than he thinks it will be. I'd let him hear some reality from other teams before I got involved. 

Three high paying years guaranteed for a RB? Ugh, I'd really rather not. 

I think their good riddance is because of the timing, with him changing his mind midseason about showing up.

Ideally we could/should try to trade off guarantees instead of heavy on the bonuses, where he doesn't get paid (and we don't get cap hit) if he's suspended.

As to your last statement, I'd rather not either; 3 yrs guaranteed for a RB who'll be 27 is nothing to gloss over lightly. But this is where having this much cap space isn't so great (in the absence of wanting to extend our own). At some point it has to be spent, whether that spend is wise or not, so if we don't unwisely guarantee him a little more than he's probably worth, we'll guarantee/pay the same total to 1-3 guys whom we could easily do just as well without. My feeling is if he takes significant pressure off Darnold, by making the offense less predictable and covered downfield receivers instead turn into checkdown 1st downs to Bell, then the pickup is worth more than measuring pure yardage totals in apples-to-apples comparisons to another back. 

A luxury like this should be more doable when the starting QB makes $8m for those same 3 years. Rather than worrying about the RB alone at $15m (or whatever he'll get), look at the QB+RB duo as $23m between them. Also it means there can't be so many of these regrettable/throwaway Maccagnan contracts (assuming this isn't one itself)

I don't know. Ask me again in a month and as likely as not I'll hate the idea again lol.

[nycdan]

15 minutes ago, Jetster said:

I live in New England and I just got home from a commute & was listening to Boston sports radio. The Patriots have given up 7.8 yards average per run over the last 3 games! Worst in FRANCHISE HISTORY! 

Lets put things into perspective. This isn't your fathers Patriots defense. Why is everyone trying to disparage Le'veon Bells talent? Why does any Jet fan care if we give Bell 16/17 million when we'll have 125 million dollars available? There aren't enough free agents to spend this money on, so, I'll take the guy that has been the #1 or #2 RB off the board in fantasy football for years.

I've watched Steelers games. I watched him play under the franchise tag & look great! I've never seen Bell play lacksadaically. In fact, he's so smooth, he doesn't even look like he's trying & than boom, he's off and running by people. We'll get the freshest Bell since his rookie season! DO NOT LET WOODY JOHNSON POCKET 16/17 million. 

I'd rather watch Darnold throwing passes to Bell than have Woody keep millions in his wallet.

The cap room is misleading.  We have 29 players under contract for next year.  Including essentially no starting WRs.  And after some cuts, that could be 25 or even less.  So we have to replace a number of starters and fill in 25-30 roster spots which is going to eat up a large portion of that cap space.  Hopefully we will get some quality guys in that mix and reduce the number of holes we have but we'll have to see what we can get.  

Now I'm not suggesting Bell wasn't great.  But I do question if he is as good as Gurley, Elliot or Barkley.  That leads me to question is he worth $15MM+/year for 5 years with most of it guaranteed.  If we could do a reasonable contract, then I'd be all in.  But Bell hasn't shown he is interested in anything other than top RB money and I think he's probably behind those 3 guys right now after a year off and there are another handful (Kamara, Conner, Gordon, Mixon, Henry, David Johnson) that are pretty damned good too.  This, combined with the cap issue mentioned above gives me pause about overpaying Bell too much.  It seems like half the league has a really good RB right now and I don't want the most expensive one if he isn't also by far the best.  Not saying it's the only way, but it's my philosophy.

Having said that, if we can't find a FA (and I'm not sure there are any good ones available in 2019) and we can't see getting one early in the draft, then I can understand overpaying for Bell.  But I can also see loving it in 2019 and hating it in 2021.

[sec101row23]

4 minutes ago, nycdan said:

The cap room is misleading.  We have 29 players under contract for next year.  Including essentially no starting WRs.  And after some cuts, that could be 25 or even less.  So we have to replace a number of starters and fill in 25-30 roster spots which is going to eat up a large portion of that cap space.  Hopefully we will get some quality guys in that mix and reduce the number of holes we have but we'll have to see what we can get.  

Now I'm not suggesting Bell wasn't great.  But I do question if he is as good as Gurley, Elliot or Barkley.  That leads me to question is he worth $15MM+/year for 5 years with most of it guaranteed.  If we could do a reasonable contract, then I'd be all in.  But Bell hasn't shown he is interested in anything other than top RB money and I think he's probably behind those 3 guys right now after a year off and there are another handful (Kamara, Conner, Gordon, Mixon, Henry, David Johnson) that are pretty damned good too.  This, combined with the cap issue mentioned above gives me pause about overpaying Bell too much.  It seems like half the league has a really good RB right now and I don't want the most expensive one if he isn't also by far the best.  Not saying it's the only way, but it's my philosophy.

Having said that, if we can't find a FA (and I'm not sure there are any good ones available in 2019) and we can't see getting one early in the draft, then I can understand overpaying for Bell.  But I can also see loving it in 2019 and hating it in 2021.

Exactly.  The sheer number of players the Jets need to sign to fill out their roster is going to limit the amount of big contracts they can give out.  Would people rather pass rushers and O-linemen or a RB?   There are more important needs than a RB.  Improve the O-line and get a couple receivers and the running improves no matter who you have back there.  

I just don’t think people realize how fast that money is going to be spent.  

[BurnleyJet]

Would you like to pay an underperforming  3-4 DE 14 mill per. Or pay an impactful Offensive weapon around the same money?

[More Cowbell]

RB is the easiest position to draft. We have much more pressing needs at OL and WR. 

[joewilly12]

2 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

RB is the easiest position to draft. We have much more pressing needs at OL and WR. 

So then we haven't drafted a top 15 superstar RB since when...............

[Jetster]

1 hour ago, sec101row23 said:

Exactly.  The sheer number of players the Jets need to sign to fill out their roster is going to limit the amount of big contracts they can give out.  Would people rather pass rushers and O-linemen or a RB?   There are more important needs than a RB.  Improve the O-line and get a couple receivers and the running improves no matter who you have back there.  

I just don’t think people realize how fast that money is going to be spent.  

Maybe signing Tevin Coleman instead? I just want to surround Sam with game breakers. My god, we had to fight for every inch Saturday, can we get some players that break tackles & get YAC? 

[joewilly12]

1 minute ago, Jetster said:

Maybe signing Tevin Coleman instead? I just want to surround Sam with game breakers. My god, we had to fight for every inch Saturday, can we get some players that break tackles & get YAC? 

ESPN 

Coleman's career-high 145 rushing yards and on 11 carries, including a career-long 65-yard sprint and a 43-yard touchdown run, came in the midst of an important evaluation period. It was just the second time Coleman has rushed for 100 yards this season and the Falcons averaged a league-low 81.2 rushing yards per game entering the day. Maybe Coleman, now in his fourth year, didn't do enough to catapult into consideration as the team's primary back of the future, but his explosive burst through the gaping holes gave the Falcons something to ponder.

"I mean, he's an amazing running back," wide receiver Julio Jones said of Coleman. "He doesn't get the credit he deserves, but he's one of the best backs in the league, by far. His speed, his vision, everything about him."

[Jetster]

9 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

ESPN 

Coleman's career-high 145 rushing yards and on 11 carries, including a career-long 65-yard sprint and a 43-yard touchdown run, came in the midst of an important evaluation period. It was just the second time Coleman has rushed for 100 yards this season and the Falcons averaged a league-low 81.2 rushing yards per game entering the day. Maybe Coleman, now in his fourth year, didn't do enough to catapult into consideration as the team's primary back of the future, but his explosive burst through the gaping holes gave the Falcons something to ponder.

"I mean, he's an amazing running back," wide receiver Julio Jones said of Coleman. "He doesn't get the credit he deserves, but he's one of the best backs in the league, by far. His speed, his vision, everything about him."

I just see him as RB by committee guy. I'd like to see him used here like the Bears use Cohen.

[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

8 hours ago, kmnj said:

I had zero problem with how Revis acted-zero. If I was a player in his shoes I would have done the same thing. NFL teams show zero player loyalty and cut a player the second he gets hurt or slows down.  I loved watching Revis island in his prime-he shut down the best of the best including megatron and was a legit shadow corner.  The jets have money to burn and have no idea how to draft-sign bell and sign a proven FA wr then draft online over and over again.  

Did you have a problem with the fact that with all the contracts considered that Darrelle Revis was paid ONE MILLION DOLLARS A GAME.  When young and healthy he was one of the best ever.  When you consider all of the injuries, and end of days subpar performances, not so much.  Certainly not at a cost of 1 Million a game.  These athletes live a lifestyle and make money that almost all other people dream about.  They are employees not owners.  I have a problem having a pity party for them. The majority of players never play up to the value of the contract in the long run anyway.  Don't drink the Kool-Aid,  P.S.  How many training camps did Revis destroy/disrupt with his constant threats and holdouts while UNDER contract.  not very professional.  Try that in your career and see how fast you'd be out on the street.  This is not about his talent.  This is about CHARACTER.   Curtis Martin/Chad Pennington Character. Dennis Byrd  Character.  Revis never was that.  Neither is Levian Bell.  Let's draft a back and take our chances. No more Michael Vicks please.