Maccagnan is demonstrably horrible

[Sperm Edwards]

12 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Since now I'm actually writing about Mac and not judging him by FA's which i believe is a poor measurement since so few make impacts on other teams, let me start by saying Mac has done a poor job as GM and deservses to shown the door due to the very high percentage of misses he has made (but Darnold will buy him another year). That said you are cherry picking your facts here or just plain ignoring them. So many of the FA moves and draft picks have Bowles signature all over them. Johnson was a Bowles pick as a FA. It screams his name. So was Lee, and so was the double dip at S two drafts ago. To say Bowles had no input or influence is sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming not listening.  As for Kamara, nobody would be slapping Mac on the back here giving him props. He would be a JAG on the Jets playing behind this OL with in this vanilla offense instead of one of the NFlL best QB of all time and on a proven offensive machine that The Saints have been for years. 

Mac is bad, Bowles is Epic Bad, as bad as Kotite IMO. I can't  believe he wasn't  fired after the Bills game during the bye. Having a HC this painfully horrible jas to habe an effect on the team overall as well as personnel  decisions.  Out right discounting,  even at the cost of propping up a poor GM is not making an accurate observation

I think you ignore how much his poor stewardship of the roster has had on Bowles - yes, a poor HC who will deservedly be shown the door - and on FAs on offense wanting to come here to play with the 2nd and 3rd rate (and whatever rate Hackenberg falls into) QBs he had on the roster when he went shopping for players to put around them. 

“We’re going to re-sign Ryan Fitzpatrick”

“We just drafted Christian Hackenberg”

”We just signed Josh McCown”

”Despite what you hear from his agent, we’re going to get Kirk Cousins”

These are not statements that make the Jets a magnet for players on offense unless we’re offering so much more $ than anybody else.

Blame it all on Bowles if you like. When combined with his eye for talent in the draft, there is no credible reason to believe Maccagnan would have more success than just about any other GM candidate the team could hire.

[Sperm Edwards]

15 minutes ago, bealeb319 said:

 

 

The Lee pick wasn't really a huge reach or anything but I also don't think he was the bpa at our pick.

Sent from my LGUS991 using JetNation.com mobile app
 

 

And Maccagnan did think he was. There you are.

Plus he looked into moving up to #1 for a QB (not on defense) and to #10 for a LT (not on defense). Those decisions ultimately were his to make.

[southparkcpa]

15 hours ago, derp said:

Potentially above average long-term moves Maccagnan has made:

-Drafting Darnold (possible franchise QB)  Traded 3 2nds and  needed 2 teams to NOT pick him. Not to mention he passed on Mahommes and Watson thus creating this need.

-Drafting Adams (leader and a playmaker at a position that has been central to quality defenses historically) Good player.  solid player if you already have a QB. on a team with NO QB he is a waste of talent. Team needed a QB , we had HACK and Petty as our future and he chose Adams? Really?  

-Drafting Jordan Jenkins (up to 7 sacks on the year, has been a starting edge rusher since day 1 - does he get a second contract after next year?)OK

-Drafting Herndon (looks like the best pass catcher on the team right now, stepped in and contributed for day one) OK

-Signing Robby Anderson as a UDFA (quality deep threat, did not take the next step in his development next year as hoped, what happens with his contract?) Decent player. VERY small.  Basically a walk on that you credit to MAC.

I would say NONE of these moves are above average...  he lucked into a few and of course, a computer model, IMO, would have done better.

[Smashmouth]

10 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

He’s not allowed. Todd Bowles wouldn’t let him. I read that here.

 

This. I man, even if I agreed with the hyperbole of how good those players are, that’s 5 long-term moves you had to cherry pick that after 4 seasons on the job, starting with a clean slate, high draft picks, and loads of cap room.

All he needs are another 15 years or so and then we can have a good team for someone to coach, I suppose.

People love to blame Bowles for the lack of offense brought in, or the lack of interest from others. But who the **** wants to jump at the chance to play on an offense led by Ryan Fitzpatrick, Bryce Petty, Josh McCown, Christian Hackenberg? There’s the lack of interest right there, and it’s Maccagnan’s doing. 

He could have put his embarrassing Fitzpatrick problem to bed by moving up in the 2016 draft. He is a big p**** and made the move that a scout makes when he is irrationally afraid of taking someone high in the draft, and frankly it’s due to not knowing what he’s doing plus maybe years of seeing fellow scouts get fired for backing the wrong, not-ultra-safe horse in the race. Hackenberg was considered lower risk than Goff because he’d cost far fewer resources, almost oblivious to the reason why smacking him the face: nobody wanted Christian Hackenberg on the first 2 days of the draft unless they were foolishly biased by his frosh HC after he went to Houston, and many didn’t want him even in round 7 to groom as a backup. The cherry on top was that Houston leapfrogged us in the draft by one slot at the time...and passed on him, but it spooked him into this colossal blunder that would scar the entire franchise for more than 2 seasons (the blunder’s wake leaking into the FA period in March of 2018). 

Worse still, at the time he’d have drafted Goff, the team had a legit 1-2 punch at WR returning from very productive seasons (not even counting Enunwa or the eventual pickup of Anderson). It was an offense that was productive the prior season with a career cold-hot-cold borderline starter with tunnel vision and a meh arm. It’s easy to forget now that the Jets were every bit as desperate to draft a QB in 2016 as they were two years later in 2018. It was a no-brainer if the possiblity was there (fans only didn’t find out until much later that he turned it down). 

So instead he chose to waste the entire 2016 season, the entire 2017 season, have that malaise for the Jets organization spill over to the 2018 FA period, and then act shocked when nobody wanted to play alongside the Jets’ QBs for the same money they could get elsewhere. Then conveniently - and underhandedly - blame the defense-centric HC for all these woes. Bowles is complicit in his own right just because he’s just not a good HC and has a weak personality, but absent a HC luring people with smoke & mirrors & empty promises, no good free agent with options - on the OL or a legit WR or TE talent - wanted his production to be judged based upon catching passes from Maccagnan’s circle of sucks QBs, nor had the GM earned the benefit of the doubt that he was going to have a good QB fall to him or ‘do what it takes’ after 3 years of not doing what it took, and instead stroking himself and local media fools on the merits of his BAP regardless of need or position strategy. 

And J&J are just dumb enought to keep him. 

What you are failing to say is that everyone on the face of the planet knew Fitz was coming back. The team as a whole failed that year and players we were counting on that played very well the year before totally sh*t the bed in a huge way along with both our top WR's playing hobbled and one landing on IR and the Locker room was a sh*t fest. But hey Macc is in charge of the locker room so yeah it's all his fault. 

While I agreed Macc could have done much better in his drafts Todd Bowles was and is a complete and utter disaster. And when the owner of the team comes out and says both guys are on the same level that in itself should tell you all you need to know and I saw him say ...no speculation here I know you saw it too. Why 2 safeties ? Why constant defensive picks early in the draft when we needed more offense ? So Bowles wanted Kamara good for him, you don't know what the asking price was and maybe it was too steep but just the fact that Macc Kicked the tires once again should tell you who was directing who.

Once again I'm not saying Macc has done a good job but he has had some nice additions and he has managed the cap well and we are still a very young team. Blowes is far an away the bigger culprit here since he's the one who has to go to the GM and request what holes need to be filled or focused on and we got a ton of DB's in return. Macc added some promising young pass rushers and they all have shown flashes but none of them are getting the lions share of snaps or one of them might very well stand out. Copeland has played very well I would like to see what he can do with more chances . I think this team has some talent not an abundance but they have some talent especially on Defense and everyone knows we need to address  this off season and its the offense and put some talent around Darnold I think with Bowles gone and Macc in charge he can get it done. Also lets keep in mind Great drafts are a very rare thing if Macc has a top draft next year and adds some FA weapons Like Bell things can get good in a hurry with a real HC IMHO that's going to be the biggest pick this offseason worth much more than any single player will be .

The only way I see Macc going this offseason is if the Johnsons finally grow some balls and go hard after a real HC like JIM Harbaugh it may be a pipe dream but ya never know, we've seen some weird things happen. Harbaugh might even retain a guy like Macc to run the numbers yet run the show behind the scenes

[bealeb319]

And Maccagnan did think he was. There you are.
Plus he looked into moving up to #1 for a QB (not on defense) and to #10 for a LT (not on defense). Those decisions ultimately were his to make.

Sure the decision to trade up and down are his to make but we will never know what the cost would have been. It is easy to judge without the information if we are usuing assumptions as facts we are just as bad as we are making him out to be no? I admit Mac has not been the top gm in the nfl and has no shortage of flaws but we are beating him up over flawed statistics and assumptions.

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[Dcat]

2 hours ago, Philc1 said:

When did you guys wake up regarding Wackagnan?  I was called an idiot here for two years because I said he’s as bad as Idzik and deserved to be fired

What about the thousands of other times and reasons people have called you names?  You established your message board persona long before that.  Here and elsewhere.  Just saying.

[More Cowbell]

29 minutes ago, bealeb319 said:

 

 

The Lee pick wasn't really a huge reach or anything but I also don't think he was the bpa at our pick.

Sent from my LGUS991 using JetNation.com mobile app
 

 

Lee was not BPA. At LB Jack was a better pick and im not even sure he would have been the bpa. I think Ragland was a consensus pick at that spot. 

[More Cowbell]

25 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I think you ignore how much his poor stewardship of the roster has had on Bowles - yes, a poor HC who will deservedly be shown the door - and on FAs on offense wanting to come here to play with the 2nd and 3rd rate (and whatever rate Hackenberg falls into) QBs he had on the roster when he went shopping for players to put around them. 

“We’re going to re-sign Ryan Fitzpatrick”

“We just drafted Christian Hackenberg”

”We just signed Josh McCown”

”Despite what you hear from his agent, we’re going to get Kirk Cousins”

These are not statements that make the Jets a magnet for players on offense unless we’re offering so much more $ than anybody else.

Blame it all on Bowles if you like. When combined with his eye for talent in the draft, there is no credible reason to believe Maccagnan would have more success than just about any other GM candidate the team could hire.

It is the GM's job to get players that the HC can put into his system. I think Mac has tried to do that. Has he done it successfully? No but Bowles being so out of his depth as a HC in this league severely  compounds any mistakes Mac has made. The last few Pat drafts have possibly  been as bad as the Jets if not worse, yet the team still can function at a high level because of the HC and his staff. Bowles is not the lone reason the team sucks but he certainly has done nothing to help and a whole lot to make it worse

[Creepy Lurker]

34 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Ok, i get your point that based on value it wasn't  an A but you are criticizing  Mac for taking a risk here that Adams will be as good as he is becoming but that seems to be one of thebproblems he has, or at least that is what people who post here are saying. Personally unless there is a player you really want that you can make a deal to trade down where you are sure he will still be available, you don't  trade down.  Nobody but Mac really knows if that was the case

I personally think when you are completely void of talent (2017 was the year we tore it all down), you trade down at all costs to have multiple top 100 picks. 1 great player at a non-premium position is not as impactful as maybe grabbing 2-3 good players at more important positions. This would probably be between 2017 and 2018 drafts with the probable trade compensation from a trade down our of a #6 pick.

I don’t remember the trade compensation for the Texan or Chiefs trade up but I don’t even want to know because it sickens me that we can’t pull off these types of draft day trades that are crucial for stockpiling picks and rebuilding. 

[#27TheDominator]

3 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

What you are failing to say is that everyone on the face of the planet knew Fitz was coming back. The team as a whole failed that year and players we were counting on that played very well the year before totally sh*t the bed in a huge way along with both our top WR's playing hobbled and one landing on IR and the Locker room was a sh*t fest. But hey Macc is in charge of the locker room so yeah it's all his fault. 

Then why did this stupid **** wait until after camp was well under way to sign  him?  Maccagnan drew a line in the sand with a salary he absolutely refused to pay.  Then a few months later, he paid it.  Hard line negotiating right there.  Great message.

I will tell you why they did this - because they drafted Hackenberg in the 2nd round. If he looked like he could play, they wouldn't need Fitzpatrick, or they could at least hold his feet to the fire in negotiations.  I know that everybody throws around this red-shirt  re-learn his throwing motion sh*t, but it is an utter crock.  The advantages that Hackenberg had were:  big NFL body,  played in a pro-style offense and had faced pressure/adversity at Penn State because of all the scholarships being pulled.  All those things point to: Play now! 

After the kid tanked he crawled back to Fitzpatrick with his tail between his legs and gave the bearded wonder everything he wanted.  The only alternative theory that is remotely plausible is that after a full season of watching him lose the locker room and look like sh*t in practice he felt that Geno Smith could take over the team.  This does not paint him in any better light. 

The proper thing to do was make Fitzpatrick his highest best offer and once it was declined, make a play for Cousins or Bradford or sign some other stiff like Hoyer, Keenum or Henne.  That would shut everyone up and we would have moved on.

 

[Bleedin Green]

1 hour ago, More Cowbell said:

I pretty much agree with this except Jamal Adams. I think that was an A. Even at 6th overall when you hit on a player who is in the top 5 at his position in his second season and looks to be a leader on the team, that is well worth anywhere you pick him. 

Maye i would give an incomplete.  We know so little about him.

Fair enough, and Adams was even one of the few I went back and forth on a little.  In truth, I have absolutely no issue with Adams the player, but rather his selection at that particular spot.  When you're talking top of the first, the vast majority of teams attack their needs at high value positions that are difficult to find anywhere else, like QB, LT, and pass rusher, all positions of great need for the Jets at the time (and 2 of those 3 still are), but not addressed.  Now granted, I would still by no means call it a bad pick, because I agree with your assessment of Adams as a player, but I personally wouldn't call it a great one either, which is what an A grade is saying.

In regards to Maye, I'm giving Macc the benefit of the doubt with the flashes he's shown at times these past two years.  In fairness, I'm not going to hold injuries against Maccagnan for players that didn't have an injury past that would have made this expected (at least as far as I know), if still performing while on the field.  That's a very different situation than Devin Smith, who did absolutely nothing even when on the field.

[bealeb319]

I personally think when you are completely void of talent (2017 was the year we tore it all down), you trade down at all costs to have multiple top 100 picks. 1 great player at a non-premium position is not as impactful as maybe grabbing 2-3 good players at more important positions. This would probably be between 2017 and 2018 drafts with the probable trade compensation from a trade down our of a #6 pick.
I don’t remember the trade compensation for the Texan or Chiefs trade up but I don’t even want to know because it sickens me that we can’t pull off these types of draft day trades that are crucial for stockpiling picks and rebuilding. 

Who wanted to trade up? What did they offer us? No one will ever know. Would it have been worth moving down to pick 20 if all we get back is a second? Maybe there was no interest. Yes a trade down would have been ideal but no one knows if that was even an option and to pretend it was and state it as fact is not a good argument.

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[Smashmouth]

6 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Then why did this stupid **** wait until after camp was well under way to sign  him?  Maccagnan drew a line in the sand with a salary he absolutely refused to pay.  Then a few months later, he paid it.  Hard line negotiating right there.  Great message.

I will tell you why they did this - because they drafted Hackenberg in the 2nd round. If he looked like he could play, they wouldn't need Fitzpatrick, or they could at least hold his feet to the fire in negotiations.  I know that everybody throws around this red-shirt  re-learn his throwing motion sh*t, but it is an utter crock.  The advantages that Hackenberg had were:  big NFL body,  played in a pro-style offense and had faced pressure/adversity at Penn State because of all the scholarships being pulled.  All those things point to: Play now! 

After the kid tanked he crawled back to Fitzpatrick with his tail between his legs and gave the bearded wonder everything he wanted.  The only alternative theory that is remotely plausible is that after a full season of watching him lose the locker room and look like sh*t in practice he felt that Geno Smith could take over the team.  This does not paint him in any better light. 

The proper thing to do was make Fitzpatrick his highest best offer and once it was declined, make a play for Cousins or Bradford or sign some other stiff like Hoyer, Keenum or Henne.  That would shut everyone up and we would have moved on.

 

So you're thinking they knew what they had in Hack during OTA's ? We all knew what type of Gamble Hack was and the Jets had zero intentions of playing him right off the bat and they said so. What the Jets ultimately paid Fitz was low end starter money and that's exactly what he deserved.

[kdels62]

The most egregious thing was that mishandling of Mo/Snacks situation. He blew it there. 

The next thing that really got me was the Fitz situation. This was amateur hour at it's worst. 

Those early contracts were also absurd but he was new on the job and it was clear that Johnson wanted to "compete" not rebuild.

The failure trio of Hansen, Stewart and Hack really hurt this team.

I still hate the Marcus Maye pick with my whole being. 

BUT

Bowles is worse. Bowles loses games with bad decisions and inflexibility. So I can't say that this team is performing to its greatest abilities.

ALSO

We have Darnold, who was a better prospect than Goff, Watson and Mahommes. He might not end up better than those 3 but I understand waiting to bank on him or Mayfield rather than reaching or giving up a king's ransom. 

Mac hits on his 1st Round picks.

Jamal Adams might be an All-pro this year. He's 23 years-old.

IN CONCLUSION

I know that Bowles has to be fired. I don't know if Mac has to be fired. Keeping Mac is not worth missing out on Harbaugh or losing Heimerdinger. 

 

Also @Sperm Edwards can you cite the sources that claim that we offered Allen Robinson and Sammy Watkins more money than they took from other teams?

[Smashmouth]

6 minutes ago, Bleedin Green said:

Fair enough, and Adams was even one of the few I went back and forth on a little.  In truth, I have absolutely no issue with Adams the player, but rather his selection at that particular spot.  When you're talking top of the first, the vast majority of teams attack their needs at high value positions that are difficult to find anywhere else, like QB, LT, and pass rusher, all positions of great need for the Jets at the time (and 2 of those 3 still are), but not addressed.  Now granted, I would still by no means call it a bad pick, because I agree with your assessment of Adams as a player, but I personally wouldn't call it a great one either, which is what an A grade is saying.

In regards to Maye, I'm giving Macc the benefit of the doubt with the flashes he's shown at times these past two years.  In fairness, I'm not going to hold injuries against Maccagnan for players that didn't have an injury past that would have made this expected (at least as far as I know), if still performing while on the field.  That's a very different situation than Devin Smith, who did absolutely nothing even when on the field.

So many Safeties have been impact players on great defenses over the years . Adams projected to be that player so why not take him when many thought he would easily go top five ? Why the hate for safeties ? Knowing what we know now where would guys like Polumalu, Reed, Harris have been picked ? if you were going to have any problem at all the obvious problem should have been The Maye pick 

[#27TheDominator]

2 minutes ago, bealeb319 said:

Who wanted to trade up? What did they offer us? No one will ever know. Would it have been worth moving down to pick 20 if all we get back is a second? Maybe there was no interest. Yes a trade down would have been ideal but no one knows if that was even an option and to pretend it was and state it as fact is not a good argument.

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Of course it was an option.  Teams traded up for players available when we picked.  You think we would only be offered #20 and 2nd for #6 overall?  What kind of stupid logic is that?  We can bet that we would have been offered at least as much as they gave up for worse picks. 

The Chiefs gave up their 1st, 3rd and 2018 first.  That is #27, #91 and a 2018 1st.(#22) to get to 10.  The Texans gave up #25 and their 2018 1st (#4) to get to 12.  We could have gotten those amounts at a minimum.  Considering the alleged genius of his plan was waiting for the 2018 QB crop, wouldn't he have been better situated to get his choice by having an extra 1st in 2018?  

[Smashmouth]

4 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

 

 

Also @Sperm Edwards can you cite the sources that claim that we offered Allen Robinson and Sammy Watkins more money than they took from other teams?

Also when a player turns down a better offer they are turning down the organization and maybe the coach that decision has very little to do with the damn GM

[bealeb319]

Of course it was an option.  Teams traded up for players available when we picked.  You think we would only be offered #20 and 2nd for #6 overall?  What kind of stupid logic is that?  We can bet that we would have been offered at least as much as they gave up for worse picks. 
The Chiefs gave up their 1st, 3rd and 2018 first.  That is #27, #91 and a 2018 1st.(#22) to get to 10.  The Texans gave up #25 and their 2018 1st (#4) to get to 12.  We could have gotten those amounts at a minimum.  Considering the alleged genius of his plan was waiting for the 2018 QB crop, wouldn't he have been better situated to get his choice by having an extra 1st in 2018?  

You are manipulating what I said to fit your feelings. I didn't say no one could have possibly offered anything to trade up What I said is no one knows if anyone did or what they offered us. Just because team a traded with team b below us doesn't mean that team a made the call to us, they could have been afraid to make us that same offer because of the draft value chart. None of us know that the option was there as a fact it is only speculation that we are trying to sign off as facts

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[kdels62]

6 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Of course it was an option.  Teams traded up for players available when we picked.  You think we would only be offered #20 and 2nd for #6 overall?  What kind of stupid logic is that?  We can bet that we would have been offered at least as much as they gave up for worse picks. 

The Chiefs gave up their 1st, 3rd and 2018 first.  That is #27, #91 and a 2018 1st.(#22) to get to 10.  The Texans gave up #25 and their 2018 1st (#4) to get to 12.  We could have gotten those amounts at a minimum.  Considering the alleged genius of his plan was waiting for the 2018 QB crop, wouldn't he have been better situated to get his choice by having an extra 1st in 2018?  

Why do you assume the Chiefs and Texans would have been okay with giving up more than that? You're assuming something with nothing more than a hunch and 0 insight. 

Also a part of the choice here is that Mac has to decide, do you take the safety that has a high chance of being great or do you take the trade leaving you to pick from players you think might only be good. 

[Creepy Lurker]

10 minutes ago, bealeb319 said:

Who wanted to trade up? What did they offer us? No one will ever know. Would it have been worth moving down to pick 20 if all we get back is a second? Maybe there was no interest. Yes a trade down would have been ideal but no one knows if that was even an option and to pretend it was and state it as fact is not a good argument.

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Clearly Houston and KC were interested in moving up. Who knows if they reached out or if we contacted these teams quickly to let them know we were willing to trade down at a discount.

None of us will know but I’ve seen a pattern of lack of trading down when other teams around us do it and I personally think it’s due to Mac’s lack of moving quickly. He has show this with zero 1st round draft day trade downs in 3years (2018 doesn’t count) when we needed to follow a Browns type model of stockpiling picks. He also missed out on free agents this last offseason because he let Cousins hold him hostage.

Mac doesn’t seem to move quickly and also is not very forward thinking, hence his overall body of work. So yes, I am blaming him but I Don’t have “concrete” proof. Just like other issues. None of us ally “know” every little detail and behind he scenes info. All we can do is form opinions based on what we do know and red flags that cause us to question or be suspicious about things.

[Bleedin Green]

56 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Since now I'm actually writing about Mac and not judging him by FA's which i believe is a poor measurement since so few make impacts on other teams, let me start by saying Mac has done a poor job as GM and deservses to shown the door due to the very high percentage of misses he has made (but Darnold will buy him another year). That said you are cherry picking your facts here or just plain ignoring them. So many of the FA moves and draft picks have Bowles signature all over them. Johnson was a Bowles pick as a FA. It screams his name. So was Lee, and so was the double dip at S two drafts ago. To say Bowles had no input or influence is sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming not listening.  As for Kamara, nobody would be slapping Mac on the back here giving him props. He would be a JAG on the Jets playing behind this OL with in this vanilla offense instead of one of the NFlL best QB of all time and on a proven offensive machine that The Saints have been for years. 

Mac is bad, Bowles is Epic Bad, as bad as Kotite IMO. I can't  believe he wasn't  fired after the Bills game during the bye. Having a HC this painfully horrible jas to habe an effect on the team overall as well as personnel  decisions.  Out right discounting,  even at the cost of propping up a poor GM is not making an accurate observation

If Maccagnan is letting Bowles tell him how to do his job, then he's even worse of a GM than if he simply made these bad decisions himself.  It's mostly a theoretical gut instinct with little evidence, so it's really not worth debating what specific kind of ineptitude Maccagnan has.

Now that's not to say Bowles isn't also terrible at his job, but that doesn't make Mac any better at his.

[#27TheDominator]

5 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

So you're thinking they knew what they had in Hack during OTA's ? We all knew what type of Gamble Hack was and the Jets had zero intentions of playing him right off the bat and they said so. What the Jets ultimately paid Fitz was low end starter money and that's exactly what he deserved.

He didn't deserve anything.  He sucked.  That move basically submarined the entire season, but because he "started" he "deserved" that amount?  He was benched for Smith and Petty both.  He didn't deserve a ******* thing. It was either Smith or Hackenberg.  Or worse, he went right up to the start of training camp without a QB on the roster.  You think that is what happened and it supposed to make us feel better about him? 

 

[Creepy Lurker]

10 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

Why do you assume the Chiefs and Texans would have been okay with giving up more than that? You're assuming something with nothing more than a hunch and 0 insight. 

Also a part of the choice here is that Mac has to decide, do you take the safety that has a high chance of being great or do you take the trade leaving you to pick from players you think might only be good. 

They may not have been at all. They may have waited for their players to drop far enough so they could “afford” that player based on the draft trade value chart. 

I’ve made this point in other threads that you don’t have to follow the draft trade value chart to a T. If they would have taken a similar deal to what the Texans or Chiefs trade partners got, it would have been justified and a great deal for them. Even if they threw in an extra 4th or something.

They would have done it and their fan bases would have said “according to the draft trade value chart, we got a great deal despite trading up/multiples picks”. It’s a win win.

The Jets needed multiple picks more than anything else and I think it’s a league wide issue that teams follow the draft trade chart too literally and at the expense of their own goals/building. 

[#27TheDominator]

11 minutes ago, bealeb319 said:

 

 

You are manipulating what I said to fit your feelings. I didn't say no one could have possibly offered anything to trade up What I said is no one knows if anyone did or what they offered us. Just because team a traded with team b below us doesn't mean that team a made the call to us, they could have been afraid to make us that same offer because of the draft value chart. None of us know that the option was there as a fact it is only speculation that we are trying to sign off as facts

Sent from my LGUS991 using JetNation.com mobile app
 

 

My feelings have nothing to do with it.  You want to trade, you work the ******* phones.  Maccagnan has a metric ton of friends with the Texans.  He does deals with them all the time.  He couldn't test the waters?  

11 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

Why do you assume the Chiefs and Texans would have been okay with giving up more than that? You're assuming something with nothing more than a hunch and 0 insight. 

Also a part of the choice here is that Mac has to decide, do you take the safety that has a high chance of being great or do you take the trade leaving you to pick from players you think might only be good. 

Who cares about more?  I said AT LEAST as much.  Do you think they would have offered us less for 6 than they gave up for 10 or 12?  The post I quoted acted like we could only expect an extra 2nd.  That is a joke. I repeat - when you are putting all your eggs in the 2018 QB basket, the extra draft capital in 2018 was worth a ton.  

[More Cowbell]

38 minutes ago, Creepy Lurker said:

I personally think when you are completely void of talent (2017 was the year we tore it all down), you trade down at all costs to have multiple top 100 picks. 1 great player at a non-premium position is not as impactful as maybe grabbing 2-3 good players at more important positions. This would probably be between 2017 and 2018 drafts with the probable trade compensation from a trade down our of a #6 pick.

I don’t remember the trade compensation for the Texan or Chiefs trade up but I don’t even want to know because it sickens me that we can’t pull off these types of draft day trades that are crucial for stockpiling picks and rebuilding. 

I don't  agree with this trade down because throwing more darts is better than less. Parcells did this instead of telling Archie Manning he would take Peyton with the first pick. How did that workout?

[#27TheDominator]

2 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

I don't  agree with this trade down because throwing more darts is better than less. Parcells did this instead of telling Archie Manning he would take Peyton with the first pick. How did that workout?

Worse.  He traded out of Orlando Pace (HOF) and Walter Jones (HOF) for James Farrior.  Farrior was a nice player, but Tubby envisioned him as his LT, but Farrior didn't really flourish until he moved inside with the Steelers, though he did have a nice last season in Herm's cover who.

I understand the preference of targeting a player to the shotgun approach (Maccagnan did both targeting Adams and shotgunning Maye at S), but to me the extra 2018 1st and picks would have been huge in ensuring that you get your QB.  The Jets were already conceding the super bowl, by going into the season with Josh McCown.   

[Sperm Edwards]

59 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

What you are failing to say is that everyone on the face of the planet knew Fitz was coming back. The team as a whole failed that year and players we were counting on that played very well the year before totally sh*t the bed in a huge way along with both our top WR's playing hobbled and one landing on IR and the Locker room was a sh*t fest. But hey Macc is in charge of the locker room so yeah it's all his fault. 

While I agreed Macc could have done much better in his drafts Todd Bowles was and is a complete and utter disaster. And when the owner of the team comes out and says both guys are on the same level that in itself should tell you all you need to know and I saw him say ...no speculation here I know you saw it too. Why 2 safeties ? Why constant defensive picks early in the draft when we needed more offense ? So Bowles wanted Kamara good for him, you don't know what the asking price was and maybe it was too steep but just the fact that Macc Kicked the tires once again should tell you who was directing who.

Once again I'm not saying Macc has done a good job but he has had some nice additions and he has managed the cap well and we are still a very young team. Blowes is far an away the bigger culprit here since he's the one who has to go to the GM and request what holes need to be filled or focused on and we got a ton of DB's in return. Macc added some promising young pass rushers and they all have shown flashes but none of them are getting the lions share of snaps or one of them might very well stand out. Copeland has played very well I would like to see what he can do with more chances . I think this team has some talent not an abundance but they have some talent especially on Defense and everyone knows we need to address  this off season and its the offense and put some talent around Darnold I think with Bowles gone and Macc in charge he can get it done. Also lets keep in mind Great drafts are a very rare thing if Macc has a top draft next year and adds some FA weapons Like Bell things can get good in a hurry with a real HC IMHO that's going to be the biggest pick this offseason worth much more than any single player will be .

The only way I see Macc going this offseason is if the Johnsons finally grow some balls and go hard after a real HC like JIM Harbaugh it may be a pipe dream but ya never know, we've seen some weird things happen. Harbaugh might even retain a guy like Macc to run the numbers yet run the show behind the scenes

That is patently untrue I’m afraid. Everyone on the planet did not know it any more than hindsight saying everyone knew Ryan Leaf would be a bust and that half the people didn’t think he was the better prospect with higher upside. It is not true because at the time Fitz had dug in his heels on $16MM per year. What made it a sure thing was failing to draft a serious QB prospect, and drafting him low enough to leave room for him to maybe not be the QB of the future.

The team can lobby all they want, but they were lobbying for months without getting what they wanted. The lobbying continued because no serious replacement was brought in, meaning the job would have naturally passed on to Geno Smith. 

Why 2 safeties? Our GM thought they were the BAPs. You can’t just look at each 50/50 decision (offense/defense) and simplistically conclude that each 50/50 coin toss was motivated purely by Bowles if it went one way.

No one said these things at the time, going back to the Leonard Williams pick. It was all ooooh look at how BAPpy this pick was; Maccagnan really knows what he’s doing.

He, like all GMs, is somewhat influenced by his HC. The decision is still his to make. He makes the call on whom to draft, not Bowles. 

He is terrible and the Jets will never win, more than maybe the occasional 1 & done berth every franchise gets, so long as he is in charge of picking the roster’s talent. 

[Bleedin Green]

16 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

So many Safeties have been impact players on great defenses over the years . Adams projected to be that player so why not take him when many thought he would easily go top five ? Why the hate for safeties ? Knowing what we know now where would guys like Polumalu, Reed, Harris have been picked ? if you were going to have any problem at all the obvious problem should have been The Maye pick 

There is no "hate" for safeties, and none of those players you mentioned went that high specifically because of the fact that they are indeed safeties.  Even in hindsight it's not a guarantee they would have been taken that high, as the rest of their respective drafts' hits at more premium positions would be flying up the board.  Besides, I gave the pick a friggin B, so it's hardly negative, just not willing to say it was an amazing choice that couldn't possibly be topped either.

A player's position still has meaning.  Sebastian Janikowski has been a pro bowler / all pro, care to argue what a good first round pick he was for the Raiders?  Of course it's an extreme example (yes, they are obviously worlds apart), but the point is you can't just pretend a player's position is meaningless to their value.  Consider that the last time a safety was drafted in the top 6 goes all the way back to 2010 (Eric Berry).  The only time a safety even went top 10 since then was Mark Barron in 2012 (who has since been moved to LB btw).  It's not a coincidence that the entire league has hardly made this move for the past decade, and that the positions taken in those slots over those years are unbelievably lopsided (with an overwhelming majority of the picks being at QB, OT, and pass rusher).  That obviously doesn't mean there aren't very talented players at the safety position, but it's a question of what cost they're worth, and the majority of the league seems to believe less than what the Jets gave up.

[More Cowbell]

29 minutes ago, Bleedin Green said:

If Maccagnan is letting Bowles tell him how to do his job, then he's even worse of a GM than if he simply made these bad decisions himself.  It's mostly a theoretical gut instinct with little evidence, so it's really not worth debating what specific kind of ineptitude Maccagnan has.

Now that's not to say Bowles isn't also terrible at his job, but that doesn't make Mac any better at his.

When Parcells quit on the Pats he said If they want you to cook the meal, they should let you buy the groceries. 

So basically you are saying that is nonsense and Mac should get whatever player he wants inspite of what kind of team his HC wants to put on the field?

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, bealeb319 said:

Sure the decision to trade up and down are his to make but we will never know what the cost would have been. It is easy to judge without the information if we are usuing assumptions as facts we are just as bad as we are making him out to be no? I admit Mac has not been the top gm in the nfl and has no shortage of flaws but we are beating him up over flawed statistics and assumptions.

Sent from my LGUS991 using JetNation.com mobile app
 

I don’t even know how to respond to this. What flawed statistics and assumptions are you talking about?

If Bowles is really in charge, and Bowles never wants to entertain the options of taking offensive players in round 1, then why bother inquiring about the move-up and purportedly turn it down over a 3rd round pick (when other teams are forking over a trio of 1st rounders to move up fewer slots)? Why bother with the exercise if Bowles isn’t going to let him anyway?

Instead of twisting with imaginary conspiracy theories, how about just go with the more obvious: he inquired and shrunk into his shell over the asking price. This is a repeated pattern of his, and continued until he’d painted himself into a corner and was down to his final opportunity to acquire a serious FQB option, at which point he traded up to #3. He had zero choice in the matter, whether it was for two 2nd rounders, three 2nd rounders, or a pair of 1s if that was the asking price. All he had to do was outbid Buffalo, because if he didn’t then he’d risk losing out on all 4 of the top prospects by the Jets’ pick at #6. He had run out of time and had run out of chances to say, “Not to worry, there are good prospects coming out next year.” This is why he can get credit for moving up but I think people go overboard on the genius of a cornered animal doing what a cornered animal must do to defend itself.

OK I found a way to respond to it, lol.  

[Creepy Lurker]

12 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

I don't  agree with this trade down because throwing more darts is better than less. Parcells did this instead of telling Archie Manning he would take Peyton with the first pick. How did that workout?

How did it work out in recent history which is more relevant? How did it work out with a dumpster fire Cleveland Browns that was rebuilding in this modern era where not as many good players hit free agency due cap constantly rising and draft picks are at a premium? 

We don’t have to agree. I’m just explaining why people probably feel about the Adams pick the way that they do is all. That’s where this all stemmed from. 

[Sperm Edwards]

55 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

It is the GM's job to get players that the HC can put into his system. I think Mac has tried to do that. Has he done it successfully? No but Bowles being so out of his depth as a HC in this league severely  compounds any mistakes Mac has made. The last few Pat drafts have possibly  been as bad as the Jets if not worse, yet the team still can function at a high level because of the HC and his staff. Bowles is not the lone reason the team sucks but he certainly has done nothing to help and a whole lot to make it worse

Lol ok and what system furnishes his HC with four starting DTs (five in 2015, if you wanted to include Coples, whose 5th year option for 2016 he initially exercised)?

There is no system. He was playing BAP Rules All and was terrified of getting second-guessed on return value in trades. That’s why he held onto Mo even though he was dangling him as trade bait for 2 offseasons. That’s why... oh what’s the point. Some people just want to blame one to excuse another.

They are both terrible at their jobs. Neither has shown a particular aptitude for performing above the mean or the median (far from it). Keeping one for another season is a de facto extension through 2022 that neither has come close to earning. That is why both should be fired.

[Creepy Lurker]

4 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Lol ok and what system furnishes his HC with four starting DTs (five in 2015, if you wanted to include Coples, whose 5th year option for 2016 he initially exercised)?

There is no system. He was playing BAP Rules All and was terrified of getting second-guessed on return value in trades. That’s why he held onto Mo even though he was dangling him as trade bait for 2 offseasons. That’s why... oh what’s the point. Some people just want to blame one to excuse another.

They are both terrible at their jobs. Neither has shown a particular aptitude for performing above the mean or the median (far from it). Keeping one for another season is a de facto extension through 2022 that neither has come close to earning. That is why both should be fired.

Just leave it at that. If others aren’t swayed after rational argument and your original post, it’s not worth the effort. Since this has been talked about and every point made as thoroughly as possible, all we do is wait to see what happens. The Jets will probably make the wrong move in our eyes but what else is new?

We know how we would run the team and we shouldn’t have better ideas/philosophies than our GM. The same can be said of other crappy GMs as well but we should only care about this team because this is the only one that matters. That is why so many people like us have been so vocal and passionate about wanting change. The thought of keeping him is disgusting and we do not have to accept it.

When the decision by ownership has been made, we move forward rooting like hell for Sam but never have to accept that they make a bad decision like retaining Mac. It also makes us adjust expectations since we do not believe in Mac at all and barring some great coaching hire and hitting on draft picks, we do not have a chance at success. That’s just the reality and all we can do as fans who have no say in the matter. 

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, kdels62 said:

The most egregious thing was that mishandling of Mo/Snacks situation. He blew it there. 

The next thing that really got me was the Fitz situation. This was amateur hour at it's worst. 

Those early contracts were also absurd but he was new on the job and it was clear that Johnson wanted to "compete" not rebuild.

The failure trio of Hansen, Stewart and Hack really hurt this team.

I still hate the Marcus Maye pick with my whole being. 

BUT

Bowles is worse. Bowles loses games with bad decisions and inflexibility. So I can't say that this team is performing to its greatest abilities.

ALSO

We have Darnold, who was a better prospect than Goff, Watson and Mahommes. He might not end up better than those 3 but I understand waiting to bank on him or Mayfield rather than reaching or giving up a king's ransom. 

Mac hits on his 1st Round picks.

Jamal Adams might be an All-pro this year. He's 23 years-old.

IN CONCLUSION

I know that Bowles has to be fired. I don't know if Mac has to be fired. Keeping Mac is not worth missing out on Harbaugh or losing Heimerdinger. 

 

Also @Sperm Edwards can you cite the sources that claim that we offered Allen Robinson and Sammy Watkins more money than they took from other teams?

Disagree on the “it was clear Johnson wanted...” — Johnson let Maccagnan do whatever he wanted in terms of player personnel, just like Idzik before him, Tannenbaum before Idzik, and Bradway before Tannenbaum. It’s amazing the lengths some will go to excuse his terrible, shortsighted acquisitions. 

It’s also convenient to take the position, as many do without realizing, that every win we got under Bowles we’d have had under a different coach, and then you can start from there as the zero-point and add up the extra wins after that. Except it doesn’t work that way, even though I think Bowles is a substandard HC like Maccagnan is a substandard GM.

Are the Jets performing to their greatest abilities all over the roster? Nobody believes that, just as nobody here is arguing Bowles is a good/great HC. But it’s not like that is the norm outside the Jets either, nor are they likely to find a HC that fills this unrealistic goal either.

Macc does not hit on all his 1st round picks. That is a myth. He’s hit on 2/3 of his top-6 overall 1st round picks, and two of the three are because the players were low demand due to their positions so others let them slide. Big whoop. Leo is not a “hit” considering his ultra-high draft slot and what that pick could have been parlayed into.

Also Lee is just meh, and the team is no worse without him right now. But hey, he looked really good when the terrible coaching staff that does nothing saw to it to prepare the team with regard to the signals and tendencies of their opponent, basically allowing the defense to know the Detroit offense plays. Other than that game, with that decided advantage that happens once in a blue moon, he’s been very meh. He’s not a hit just because he isn’t an overt, Gholston-like bust.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

8 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

They are both terrible at their jobs. Neither has shown a particular aptitude for performing above the mean or the median (far from it). Keeping one for another season is a de facto extension through 2022 that neither has come close to earning. That is why both should be fired.

I’ll say it. I don’t think there’s sufficient evidence to jettison the null hypothesis that Bowles performs at the mean. This is not to say that he shouldn’t be fired (even if we gag vomit keep Maccagnan on), because he should be. But this notion that they are anywhere close to equally bad is an insane false equivalence.