Maccagnan is demonstrably horrible

[More Cowbell]

42 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Of course we can.  Its part of his body of work.  Therefore we absolutely can use that as part of the judgment on how well he's done.  Now, we can debate how important those decisions are as part of his portfolio of decisions, but you can't just dismiss them out of hand.

Especially when we're walking into an offseason where he will have $116 million in cap space.  If in fact you're right and he's going nowhere, the players he decides to sign in Free Agency will have an enormous impact on what direction the franchise goes in.  And given his past decisions, the outlook is terrible. 

For me, this offseason is make or break for Mac. If hs does well in this draft and we sign sone FA's that can contribute, there may be hope. If we see more signings lime Johnson and draft picks like Devin Smith, I'll help buy the fire Mac Banner to fly behind the plane.  

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, More Cowbell said:

For me, this offseason is make or break for Mac. If hs does well in this draft and we sign sone FA's that can contribute, there may be hope. If we see more signings lime Johnson and draft picks like Devin Smith, I'll help buy the fire Mac Banner to fly behind the plane.  

I agree. 

[derp]

Potentially above average long-term moves Maccagnan has made:

-Drafting Darnold (possible franchise QB)

-Drafting Adams (leader and a playmaker at a position that has been central to quality defenses historically)

-Drafting Jordan Jenkins (up to 7 sacks on the year, has been a starting edge rusher since day 1 - does he get a second contract after next year?)

-Drafting Herndon (looks like the best pass catcher on the team right now, stepped in and contributed for day one)

-Signing Robby Anderson as a UDFA (quality deep threat, did not take the next step in his development next year as hoped, what happens with his contract?)

I'm not sure honestly there are guys off this list who are still on the team 3, 4 years from now. You look at the roster for 2019 and it is absolutely barren. Mostly devoid of talent. There are four years of draft picks Maccagnan had to bring long-term contributors in and his hit rate is really, really bad.

At the end of the day the FA moves are just patchwork and tend not to make a huge difference unless you are just trying to fill a small hole and a contending team. Teams need to succeed through the draft. Maccagnan said it when he came in. He should be judged on that. He has not been successful. 

We all talk about how the team needs to build the offense - and yet there are no offensive players at the top of this draft. Maccagnan has been bad at drafting all offensive positions except tight end outside of the first round. Quarterbacks (2), running backs (2), wide receivers (4), linemen (2) - he's got a blend of massive misses (Petty, Hackenberg, Smith, Stewart, Hansen, Harrison), okay but low impact selections (Peake, Cannon, McGuire), and above average but still low impact picks (Shell). None of those guys seems to project to be a long-term contributor. This is really the guy we want building a team around Darnold? He's had four years to build an offense that should have weapons for the quarterback. He's taken shots. He's missed regularly.

[JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF]

1 hour ago, UnitedWhofans said:

See this is my problem with you. You clearly know your facts and know how to state them. But you can’t just blow over the good things he did or just brush them away with “luck”. What you should have done is acknowledged the good things he did and said “Despite those, I think for the most part he is horrible” and then go on about it.

You have to acknowledge both sides of the issue. And I know you will probably blow me off or make a snide remark in my direction, because that’s what you always do to me. But nevertheless, I think it needs to be said. 

As for your last remark, it’s childish and irrelevant. If you want your opinion to be taken seriously, don’t say those things

Actually it's not irrelevant at all.  His body language says that adversaries can get over on him, and not surprisingly they do.

Again, there is NO Owner, outside of Johnson, in the NFL who would retain this guy's services.

In fact Sperm's treatise should be hand delivered to London and Johnson on a gold plate accompanied by the guy's horrific draft record on another platter to wake Johnson up.  Hire a Shanahan type who controls the new GM and HC hirings and step aside.  Be incredibly grateful your team lucked into a Franchise, probable future Top 3 QB, and get people who know how to build around said QB, because Maccagnan definitely does not.

[Jetsfan80]

Who just called the WFAN?!!!
 
i want him dead

Was the caller from Rochester, by chance?

[Jetster]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

I mean that's cool and all, but we've gone 5-11, 5-11, and 4-10 the last 3 seasons.  If its so easy to go from 5 wins to contender, why haven't we done it yet, for 3 consecutive seasons?

We are indeed buried beneath the contending teams.  Because at least you can say a few of those teams either performed well the season BEFORE or will likely perform much better NEXT season.  The Jaguars, Packers, Bills, Browns, Broncos and Bengals come to mind from that list.  The Bills made the playoffs last season and have a pretty good defense.  The Browns' arrow is pointed straight up.  The Broncos and Bengals just need coaching changes.  Etc. 

The Jets have sucked for the last 3 years, and there's no real reason to believe we'll be tangibly better other than saying we'll throw a bunch of money at mediocre free agents and manage to go 7-9 or something like that.  At least not unless we change what we're doing in a significant way. 

Some People chose the Jaguars to be in the 2019 Super Bowl based on last year. You have no idea what any team is gonna do next year. We have Sam Darnold, he's going to be better next year, that I will guarantee you. We'll have new coaches, but I can't tell you our record.

[Jetster]

1 hour ago, Bleedin Green said:

This is flawed logic that is completely dependent on you having drawn a conclusion first, and then coming back around later to figure out how to justify it.  Your entire argument is that Bowles must be responsible for all of the endless failures of Maccagnan, yet Maccagnan is somehow totally blameless of anything that contributed to the failures of Bowles.  The entire basis for this? Well, because you say so.

There are countless levels of evidence that show there is no basis for such an argument to be made.  However, it ultimately comes down to one point that I have said many times before, and will continue to say repeatedly until it sticks in people's heads:  the next former Bowles/Maccagnan Jet who goes on to have greater success with his next team will be the very first, because it has still quite literally never happened.

Ultimately, there is not one single shred of evidence to suggest that coaching is responsible for the failed careers of these players (unless you'd like to argue that the ongoing failures of Macc's signing/draft picks throughout the league is the sole fault of all those other coaches too).  Everything we've seen to date actually says otherwise.  That is the reason why Maccagnan deserves to be unemployed just as much as anyone, and it has nothing to do with some mystical conspiracy that him not doing his own job well isn't really his fault.

So what your saying is that without Bowles superior coaching skills the Jets would have gone 1-15? Lmao! The guy blew at least 5 games with horrible coaching decisions! 

[Integrity28]

2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I'm doing the same, aren't I? I think I am, lol.

Yes. Darwin’s Law. At some point you have to just stop trying to convince certain folks that water is wet, and let them wither in dehydration.

[Pac]

2 hours ago, The Crusher said:

Not me. I'm waiting for your line by line rebuttal.

No interest.  I reject the premise entirely.  Ascribing the blame for every mistake that's been made on Macc is not based in reality.

Woody clearly told him to get Revis...  Woody clearly told him he wasn't ready for a true rebuild until 2 years ago...  Bowles clearly has his and his coaches fingerprints over a large percentage of those failed picks.

Why would I waste the time rebutting every line when people want to believe it's all Maccs fault?  No thanks.

[j4jets]

Holy mother of Jesus. 

[Bleedin Green]

11 minutes ago, Pac said:

No interest.  I reject the premise entirely.  Ascribing the blame for every mistake that's been made on Macc is not based in reality.

Woody clearly told him to get Revis...  Woody clearly told him he wasn't ready for a true rebuild until 2 years ago...  Bowles clearly has his and his coaches fingerprints over a large percentage of those failed picks.

Why would I waste the time rebutting every line when people want to believe it's all Maccs fault?  No thanks.

Good point... apparently Maccagnan hasn't actually failed at his job at all.  No no, he simply hasn't even done any of it at all for the past 4 years.  When you put it that way Pac, you've made the strongest argument for his firing yet.  Way to go!!

[Pac]

2 minutes ago, Bleedin Green said:

Good point... apparently Maccagnan hasn't actually failed at his job at all.  No no, he simply hasn't even done any of it at all for the past 4 years.  When you put it that way Pac, you've made the strongest argument for his firing yet.  Way to go!!

Never said he couldn't improve I just simply do not buy into the hysteria.  2 years ago Woody outright said he's finally giving the go ahead on a rebuild but people still think it was Macc that was delaying it.  

There's been good and bad moves but the needle pointed up.  With a better coach this team would be hovering around 500 and these kinds of threads would seem silly.

[bitonti]

If they get rid of 1 they need to get rid of both 

Mac can't barely make a draft pick how is he trusted to pick the next HC? 

this is a man who thought Kirk Cousins was worth 30 million per year and picked Christian Hackenberg in rd 2. 

mind boggling

 

[RobR]

5 minutes ago, Pac said:

Never said he couldn't improve I just simply do not buy into the hysteria.  2 years ago Woody outright said he's finally giving the go ahead on a rebuild but people still think it was Macc that was delaying it.  

There's been good and bad moves but the needle pointed up.  With a better coach this team would be hovering around 500 and these kinds of threads would seem silly.

How does that explain his poor drafts since he's been hired? Are you supposed to be OK with crappy drafts because for some odd reason people believe the true rebuild didn't start until two years ago. 

Also hovering around .500 is a pretty low bar to set when your GM is going into his fifth season.

[Jetsfan80]

Some People chose the Jaguars to be in the 2019 Super Bowl based on last year. You have no idea what any team is gonna do next year. We have Sam Darnold, he's going to be better next year, that I will guarantee you. We'll have new coaches, but I can't tell you our record.

The point is a lot of the teams you listed have had some good, recent seasons to suggest they have pretty good programs going on overall.

We, meanwhile, are 14-32 over the last 3 years. So your premise that we’re “real close” with the rest of the pack is flawed. Only like 2-3 teams at most have had a worse record in that span.

[Creepy Lurker]

47 minutes ago, Pac said:

Never said he couldn't improve I just simply do not buy into the hysteria.  2 years ago Woody outright said he's finally giving the go ahead on a rebuild but people still think it was Macc that was delaying it.  

There's been good and bad moves but the needle pointed up.  With a better coach this team would be hovering around 500 and these kinds of threads would seem silly.

I love the delayed rebuild argument. This excuses his atrocious drafting from 2015-2016? Aren’t drafts forward thinking and about the future regardless? Just curious.

I’m not looking to argue with you since you’ve made it clear how you feel as have others. I just don’t understand what your criteria is for “acceptable” or bare minimum general management. 

[Jets Voice of Reason]

44 minutes ago, Creepy Lurker said:

I love the delayed rebuild argument. This excuses his atrocious drafting from 2015-2016? Aren’t drafts forward thinking and about the future regardless? Just curious.

I’m not looking to argue with you since you’ve made it clear how you feel as have others. I just don’t understand what your criteria is for “acceptable” or bare minimum general management. 

Breathing, apparently. 

[Jetscode1]

10 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Did you even read what Sperm wrote?

It's not just the amount of money wasted.  It's what these moves cost us in a domino-like effect that really matters. 

There WERE alternatives to signing these dead weight guys.  It centered on not signing any of those UFA's at all, picking up some compensatory picks on the way, building via the draft, and filling those roster slots with non-UFA's (like UDFA's and cut players). 

Some people struggle to understand opportunity costs.  

[Bugg]

11 hours ago, T0mShane said:

We are lucky to have people on this website with the passion and dedication to write articles like this for us, for free. Well researched, enlightening, and intelligent. Meanwhile, Brian Costello is in his car eating a bag of Egg McMuffins trying to find synonyms for “dynamic” so he can patch together another 300 word sub-MySpace level blog post about Jamal Adams making the pro bowl. Great job, @Sperm Edwards

It's Mcgriddles...

[Bugg]

9 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

The draft is a crap shoot.  Free agency is a crap shoot.  I guess Macc is just really unlucky, huh. 

Craps has very specific odds which any long time player knows very exactly; 36 possible outcomes, 7 the most likely outcome, each number going up and down less so, to 2 and 12 (only 1 out of 36). When people say "crapshoot" like it's completely random they have no clue what the F___ they are talking about.

Free agency and the draft are choices made based on very available information about the players themselves, their contracts,the team's needs and the opportunity cost, i.e. if you take a safety over a QB. 

[Bugg]

5 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

I'm curious, does anyone know if Mac is aware that he is allowed to pick O linemen in the first 4 rounds of the draft?

You have to pick DBs and DL guys. Its the law. None of this "opportunity cost" nonsense. Also, sign a whole bunch of old DBs at top dollar.; they need to fund their IRAs before they hang'em up.  

[Jetsfan80]

Some People chose the Jaguars to be in the 2019 Super Bowl based on last year. You have no idea what any team is gonna do next year. We have Sam Darnold, he's going to be better next year, that I will guarantee you. We'll have new coaches, but I can't tell you our record.

My point was that you can’t just say “we’re 4-10, not that far off from some other struggling teams!” without also considering that we’ve sucked for 3 years, not 1.

Yes, the Jaguars suck right now too. But their body of work the years before this one suggest they’re in much better shape than us.

We have Darnold and that’s great. But there’s no way anyone can argue we’re “close” to the middle of the pack. We’re at the basement of the NFL.

[southtown24th]

Deep Dive Here...

 

Tannenbaum's First Round Picks:

Mangold-A

Ferguson-A

Revis-A

Gholston-F

Keller-C

Sanchez-D

Wilson-F

Wilkerson-B

Coples-F

Let's call it...a C average.

 

Macc's First Round Picks:

Milliner-F

Richardson-B

Pryor-D

Williams-B

Lee-B

Adams-A

Darnold-B (incomplete)

Let's call it...a B average.

[southtown24th]

Bradway's Picks:

Moss-B

Thomas-B

Robertson-F

Vilma-B

Let's call it...B- Average

[southtown24th]

Maccagnan isn't as bad as everyone makes him out to be, he doesn't deserve as much blame as he's given, he needs more time, he deserves to see this thing through with a new coach, Darnold and all the cap space...he has earned the right...I don't get all the people screaming and yelling like Macc is the worst GM in NFL history.  He's a C average and that's about average for the league.  He's an average NFL GM and that's good enough for me right now...

[Dinamite]

4 minutes ago, southtown24th said:

 

Idzik's First Round Picks:

Milliner-F

Richardson-B

Pryor-D

Macc's First Round Picks:

Williams-B

Lee-B

Adams-A

Darnold-B (incomplete)

Let's call it...a B average.

Fixed it to include Idzik...

[southtown24th]

2 minutes ago, Dinamite said:

Fixed it to include Idzik...

My bad.  Thank you.

[Dinamite]

5 minutes ago, southtown24th said:

 

Tannenbaum's First Round Picks with Mangini

Mangold-A

Ferguson-A

Revis-A

Gholston-F

Keller-C

Tannenbaum's First Round Picks with Rex

Sanchez-D

Wilson-F

Wilkerson-B

Coples-F

Let's call it...a C average.

 

 

Also, another important distinction (Mangini/Rex)  At least Gholston was a failure in a premium position worth taking a shot in, in a draft that turned out to not be very good.

[southtown24th]

3 minutes ago, Dinamite said:

Fixed it to include Idzik...

with that, Macc looks a LOT better now...

[shuler82]

9 minutes ago, southtown24th said:

Deep Dive Here...

 

Tannenbaum's First Round Picks:

Mangold-A

Ferguson-A

Revis-A

Gholston-F

Keller-C

Sanchez-D

Wilson-F

Wilkerson-B

Coples-F

Let's call it...a C average.

 

Macc's First Round Picks:

Milliner-F

Richardson-B

Pryor-D

Williams-B

Lee-B

Adams-A

Darnold-B (incomplete)

Let's call it...a B average.

Two things - first , in 2013 and 2014 our GM was Idzik. Second- if your only criteria for judging GMs is only by first round picks (and mostly top 6 ones at that) then no one will take your opinion seriously.

Do yourself a favor and go listen to Jason’s OTC podcast about the state of the Jets. He breaks it down even further than Sperm has here.. and the conclusion isn’t pretty.

[southtown24th]

Macc has done a decent to (dare I say it) solid job in the first round of all the drafts he's drafted in...Williams--decent, Lee--decent, Adams--Pro Bowler, Darnold--you do the math.

 

Guy deserves a little credit.

[Bleedin Green]

6 minutes ago, southtown24th said:

Deep Dive Here...

 

Tannenbaum's First Round Picks:

Mangold-A

Ferguson-A

Revis-A

Gholston-F

Keller-C

Sanchez-D

Wilson-F

Wilkerson-B

Coples-F

Let's call it...a C average.

 

Macc's First Round Picks:

Milliner-F

Richardson-B

Pryor-D

Williams-B

Lee-B

Adams-A

Darnold-B (incomplete)

Let's call it...a B average.

While I can understand blocking out recent years' of Jets' memories, your brain seems to have merged our past 2 GMs into some morphed GM designed to haunt all of our dreams:  the evil Jike Maccadzik.

[Dinamite]

1 minute ago, southtown24th said:

My bad.  Thank you.

Your grades are pretty spot on overall.  Nicely done.  I think Macc has done  well in the first round.  The problem is the rest of the draft where GMs can get value in mid round picks, but Macc doesn't seem to (there is some stat that suggests the players picked during Macc years not in NFL rosters anymore is the highest or one of the highest).

[southtown24th]

Just now, shuler82 said:

Two things - first , in 2013 and 2014 our GM was Idzik. Second- if your only criteria for judging GMs is only by first round picks (and mostly top 6 ones at that) then no one will take your opinion seriously.

 

this is a message board.  unfortunately, not looking to be "taken seriously"

[southtown24th]

And as for first rounds only, I don't have the time or the energy to analyze every single pick and every single draft of the last 20 years...if one of you other unemployed bozos cares to do so, be my guest...no time for that.