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Hopeful article about Darnold

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2 hours ago, Savage69 said:

Fish doesn't believe in what he considers false hope until the player proves it on the field.. Nothing wrong with that except I think if Fish won a 500 million lottery he would complain about the taxes..:curse:

Lol, no.  :rl:

And if Darnold is at 68% completion % next year, I won't complain about that either.  68%+ is extremely accurate. :-k

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53 minutes ago, SAR I said:

greateight.jpg

If you can't feel good about these 8 Jets then you are rooting for the wrong team.

SAR I

Gase has a lot to prove. Nothing wrong having reservations about a newly hired HC.

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44 minutes ago, David Harris said:

Don't you find so much of Allen's success last year was due to his running - he was a bigger stronger Steve Young running QB last year.  He seemed to take off early and often last year and broke off a lot of long runs and was way faster and stronger than expected.  Allen didn't have any of the kinds of nuanced and  tough throws that Darnold showed in that article.  Darnold's a QB with great instincts, Allen is a Cam Newton clone without the touch or feel, JMO.

Agree with you about Allen and the running last year, but he also has the strongest arm of the QBs taken last year in my opinion. He’s very wild with it though. When you look at their seasons though, there wasn’t much to separate him and Darnold.

i really don’t buy into this thing about Darnold being so accurate though either. At least not consistently. Sure he made some great throws, but he made some really bad ones also. So many here want to blame everything he did wrong on his receivers and or coaches, that’s not being fair in my opinion.

I think both he and Allen will become very good QBs, Rosen too for that matter. I just think the 3 of them have a lot to improve on. I realize it isn’t a popular opinion here, but I honestly feel Mayfield is way ahead of them all at this point, and I thought it was pretty evident last year.

Of course that doesn’t mean Sam or the others won’t become the same or better, I just don’t think they are right now.

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5 hours ago, Warfish said:

Accuracy is about consistency.  Single great throws do not make you accurate.  Being consistently accurate makes you accurate.

Darnold is not an accurate QB yet.  He certainly can work hard and grow into one.  

But trying to paint the least accurate QB in the NFL last year as somehow being elite in accuracy because he made a few great throws is a bit of a stretch.

There is no reason to fluff the kid.  He has  a ton of work and development still to come to be what we want, an elite QB.  He is not that yet, he's still just a high quality prospect.  Lets not get ahead of ourselves here.

I don't think it's about accuracy, or completions. I think for a QB it's about ball placement and that changes with every throw with proper ball placement the numbers should go up although the receiver has to do their part too. I believe Darnold has good ball placement and will only get better with more reps and hopefully better receivers and understanding each other over time.

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4 minutes ago, genot said:

Gase has a lot to prove. Nothing wrong having reservations about a newly hired HC.

As an experienced NFL head coach, would you not agree that he is superior to:

Todd Bowles
Rex Ryan
Eric Mangini
Herman Edwards
Al Groh

SAR I

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19 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Yes, how dare we be literal when discussing literal things like literal metrics to measure literal accuracy.....

Go right ahead.

I'm getting tired of JN Posters who think they get to decide who is or isn't a fan of this team and it's players....

He was 31st in the NFL in Completion % in 2018 at 57.7%, below the NFL's "Mendoza Line" of 60%.

Only Josh Allen and Josh Rosen were worse. 

That is simply not "extremely accurate".  

Again, that isn't to say he cannot work hard and improve his accuracy to be materially more consistent, which will be required if he is to be an elite NFL QB, but he was not "extremely accurate" in 2018.  

I just don;t get the homer desire for 1984-esque Newspeak when it comes to guys they like.  He's a young QB who needs to develop, there is NOTHING WRONG with him not being "extremely accurate" yet.  We don't need to redefine what words and metrics mean or engage in extreme hyperbole to be in lockstep with some Party LIne on Darnold. 

Yes, he occasionally makes very accurate throws.  Elite throws even.   No, he is not overall extremely accurate...yet.

We'll see this year, with Anderson, Crowder, Enunwa, Herndon and especially Bell, there should be no "blame the other guys" excuse to be made.  

 

There you go with your penchant for immediately shifting into negative hyperbole. 

I didn’t say you weren’t a Jet fan but given your dour miserable schtick it’s not surprising. 

But again continuing to equate comp rate and accuracy shows a basic lack of understanding that a metric and a concept are not the same. But you keep trotting out 31st as “inaccurate” so you keep going with it. 

I’m fortunate in life that I no longer need to deal with miserable folks at work or leisure and I’m not sure why I’m engaging now. Insufferable miserable folks, I really hope it’s just your schtick and reading your work since I’ve been here, I’m guessing that’s all it is. 

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15 minutes ago, SAR I said:

As an experienced NFL head coach, would you not agree that he is superior to:

Todd Bowles
Rex Ryan
Eric Mangini
Herman Edwards
Al Groh

SAR I

I would rank them by their total records, and accomplishments...ie divisions won etc.

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19 minutes ago, Apache 51 said:

I don't think it's about accuracy, or completions. I think for a QB it's about ball placement and that changes with every throw with proper ball placement the numbers should go up although the receiver has to do their part too. I believe Darnold has good ball placement and will only get better with more reps and hopefully better receivers and understanding each other over time.

Exactly. 

Accuracy is an innate ability to make certain throws. Inaccurate guys can only get so far. Accurate guys will rise to the top.

That Sam was under 58% last year as a 21 year old with an awful OC, an awful line, bottom of the barrel talent at WR and RB does not mean he is inaccurate. 

Yet someone with a fundamental misunderstanding of stats v concepts will keep whining THIRTY FIRST!

 

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28 minutes ago, SAR I said:

As an experienced NFL head coach, would you not agree that he is superior to:

Todd Bowles
Rex Ryan
Eric Mangini
Herman Edwards
Al Groh

SAR I

Rex Ryan, no. The others, as a coach. Probably. My reservations about him go beyond the x's and o's

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This is how moronic comp rate equals accuracy is. 

So apparently, according to some, 60% is the line that denotes accurate v inaccurate.

Sam was 239 of 414 for 57.7% completion rate. 13 games. 

If you add 1 completion per game, maybe a dropped pass or a throw away or a bad route or any number of issues unrelated to accuracy, 13 receptions and Sam is 252 for 414 for a nearly 61% comp rate. Is he now accurate? Now think about how bad the OC was, how bad his offensive “talent” was, how pourous his line was, all the injuries. 

Not making excuses but one completion a game and all of a sudden he’s accurate?

Lol. 

No one is claiming he doesn’t have work to do or that he’s a finished product. For crissakes he’s 22.

But THIRTY FIRST....INACCURATE!!!!

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52 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Yes, how dare we be literal when discussing literal things like literal metrics to measure literal accuracy.....

Go right ahead.

I'm getting tired of JN Posters who think they get to decide who is or isn't a fan of this team and it's players....

He was 31st in the NFL in Completion % in 2018 at 57.7%, below the NFL's "Mendoza Line" of 60%.

Only Josh Allen and Josh Rosen were worse. 

That is simply not "extremely accurate".  

Again, that isn't to say he cannot work hard and improve his accuracy to be materially more consistent, which will be required if he is to be an elite NFL QB, but he was not "extremely accurate" in 2018.  

I just don;t get the homer desire for 1984-esque Newspeak when it comes to guys they like.  He's a young QB who needs to develop, there is NOTHING WRONG with him not being "extremely accurate" yet.  We don't need to redefine what words and metrics mean or engage in extreme hyperbole to be in lockstep with some Party LIne on Darnold. 

Yes, he occasionally makes very accurate throws.  Elite throws even.   No, he is not overall extremely accurate...yet.

We'll see this year, with Anderson, Crowder, Enunwa, Herndon and especially Bell, there should be no "blame the other guys" excuse to be made.  

 

...and yet you’re getting drawn into a “discussion” with the self appointed judge of who is or isn’t a Jets fan. Don’t waste your time.

Simply not agreeing with his point of view leads to his “accusations” about your level of fandom (lol) and comments about what a miserable person you are. 🤔 He seems unable to discuss anything in a civil tone. Always stoops to nasty snark.

By my count, you’re the 3rd person to call him out on it this week, including the owner of the site.

But yet he keeps on keeping on. Oblivious to how he comes off.

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23 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

...and yet you’re getting drawn into a “discussion” with the self appointed judge of who is or isn’t a Jets fan. Don’t waste your time.

Simply not agreeing with his point of view leads to his “accusations” about your level of fandom (lol) and comments about what a miserable person you are. 🤔 He seems unable to discuss anything in a civil tone. Always stoops to nasty snark.

By my count, you’re the 3rd person to call him out on it this week, including the owner of the site.

But yet he keeps on keeping on. Oblivious to how he comes off.

I never said he wasn’t a Jet fan- I know he is but that was his spin on what I said. I was discussing accuracy v completion percentage and his penchant for what I believe is and has been an unfair critique of Sam.

And he’s shown  he’s man enough to defend himself and doesn’t need your help. 

And if you’re going to report me to the mods have the guts to do it in public. 

Hey @Maxman this guy that you asked me to “knock it off” is now suggesting I’M not a Jet fan. 

Been a Jet fan since 1969. 

Does this guy get a warning? 

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7 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

I never said he wasn’t a Jet fan- I know he is but that was his spin on what I said. I was discussing accuracy v completion percentage and his penchant for what I believe is and has been an unfair critique of Sam.

And he’s shown  he’s man enough to defend himself and doesn’t need your help. 

And if you’re going to report me to the mods have the guts to do it in public. 

Hey @Maxman this guy that you asked me to “knock it off” is now suggesting I’M not a Jet fan. 

Been a Jet fan since 1969. 

Does this guy get a warning? 

Parroting again, huh?

I never reported you sweetie, that pushback you got was all because of your own actions. So now when the mods read here you claiming I reported you, you’re going to look even more childish then you usually do.

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5 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

Parroting again, huh?

I never reported you sweetie, that pushback you got was all because of your own actions. So now when the mods read here you claiming I reported you, you’re going to look even more childish then you usually do.

Sweetie? Again? 

Wow how cutting. 

 

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53 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

...and yet you’re getting drawn into a “discussion” with the self appointed judge of who is or isn’t a Jets fan. Don’t waste your time.

Simply not agreeing with his point of view leads to his “accusations” about your level of fandom (lol) and comments about what a miserable person you are. 🤔 He seems unable to discuss anything in a civil tone. Always stoops to nasty snark.

By my count, you’re the 3rd person to call him out on it this week, including the owner of the site.

But yet he keeps on keeping on. Oblivious to how he comes off.

Quote

You've chosen to ignore content by Peace Frog. Options 

 

Long overdue tbh.  :-k

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1 hour ago, Apache 51 said:

I would rank them by their total records, and accomplishments...ie divisions won etc.

In terms of pedigree and experience level, Adam Gase trumps them all.

SAR I

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1 hour ago, genot said:

Rex Ryan, no. The others, as a coach. Probably. My reservations about him go beyond the x's and o's

Tell me in detail about your reservations.

SAR I

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3 minutes ago, SAR I said:

In terms of pedigree and experience level, Adam Gase trumps them all.

SAR I

It's about results. You don't play to win the game, and the biggest of all?

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6 minutes ago, SAR I said:

In terms of pedigree and experience level, Adam Gase trumps them all.

SAR I

No politics.

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44 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Tell me in detail about your reservations.

SAR I

I think he's a little arrogant. He's a control freak, who doesn't like dissent. when your winning,all's good. When you lose, things can start to unravel quickly.

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On 7/13/2019 at 7:35 PM, 14 in Green said:

I have no problem with thinking Darnold will have a wonderful career. I think he will also.

What I do take issue with is when people here say how obvious it is that Sam will be better then Mayfield. Based on what exactly? And why the constant need to try and convince each other that Sam should’ve been taken first, and he is the better of the two?

All we have to go by so far IS their rookie year, and Baker was clearly better, and look at their numbers... Yes, Mayfield was decisively better. Anything  else is opinion or as I said, Jets fans projecting.

Why not let Darnold actually prove ON THE FIELD that he is better? He hasn’t yet, but if and when he does there’ll be plenty of opportunities to talk about it.

Darnold not only had much less talent than Mayfield, but also had one of the worst coaching staffs of all time in his corner as well.

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7 minutes ago, UnknownJetFan said:

Darnold not only had much less talent than Mayfield, but also had one of the worst coaching staffs of all time in his corner as well.

Just think one more NFL level talent around him and a competent OC and he’s easily at 61% comp and all of a sudden he’s “accurate”. 

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2 Kirk Cousins 66.5% 2012-2018 2TM
3 Chad Pennington 66.0% 2000-2010 2TM
4 Kurt Warner+ 65.5% 1998-2009 3TM
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  Peyton Manning 65.3% 1998-2015 2TM
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14 Matt Schaub 63.9% 2004-2018 4TM
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18 Ryan Tannehill 62.8% 2012-2018 mia
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20 Brian Griese 62.7% 1998-2008 4TM
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25 Andy Dalton 62.3% 2011-2018 cin
26 Marc Bulger 62.1% 2002-2009 ram
27 Case Keenum 62.0% 2012-2018 4TM
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30 Joe Flacco 61.7% 2008-2018 rav
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32 David Garrard 61.6% 2002-2010 jax
  Nick Foles 61.6% 2012-2018 3TM
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  Jameis Winston 61.6% 2015-2018 tam
36 Troy Aikman+ 61.5% 1989-2000 dal
37 Andrew Luck 60.8% 2012-2018 clt
38 Trent Green 60.6% 1997-2008 4TM
39 Matt Hasselbeck 60.5% 1999-2015 4TM
40 Jason Campbell 60.3% 2006-2014 5TM
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63 Donovan McNabb 59.0% 1999-2011 3TM
64 Bobby Hebert 58.9% 1985-1996 2TM
65 Dan Fouts+ 58.8% 1973-1987 sdg
  Jim Harbaugh 58.8% 1987-2000 4TM
  Matt Cassel 58.8% 2005-2018 7TM
68 Jay Fiedler 58.7% 1995-2005 5TM
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80 Neil Lomax 57.6% 1981-1988 crd
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86 Steve DeBerg 57.2% 1978-1998 6TM
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89 Jake Plummer 57.1% 1997-2006 2TM
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189

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7 hours ago, 14 in Green said:

 

All good points by both of you. 

Sometimes I rush thru a quote and don’t explain myself properly.

Im all for Being optimistic about Sam. Let’s face it, without him we are screwed. My objection is the need to put down a Mayfield, Allen or Barkley when talking about Sam.

i think those teams are happy with who they took.

I couldn’t understand at first why the Giants kept saying they were taking the RB, but then I thought about it, and if they took a QB last year, rightly or wrongly he would’ve sat two years behind Eli anyway.

As for the Browns, I always say I’m no draft guru, but if I were them I’d have taken Barkley first, and one of the QBs, either Darnold or Mayfield 4th. The way it played out though their GM knew better then me (shocker) as it appears he got a really good QB and CB.

In no way am I discounting Mayfield.  Hes tough in the pocket, accurate, can go through his progressions, has enough arm and is a legit leader.  I just personally feel that Sam has an innate ability to see things a split second before they happen and that is while being so young.  Guys like peyton and luck had 6 or 7 full years of starting at a high level of HS and college.  Sam is so far behind them when it comes to coaching, and yet is on par with production and then also comes with elite size and speed.  

You make a solid point about the browns trading down, but the bigger missed trade is the Giants not trading Odell a year ago for 4 and a second rounder.  They could have taken Sam at 2, the Jets would have been forced into Rosen or Allen, and then Barkely at 4 and been set on offense for a long time. 

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33 minutes ago, UnknownJetFan said:

Darnold not only had much less talent than Mayfield, but also had one of the worst coaching staffs of all time in his corner as well.

I know this is a popular theme here when defending Sam. You’re right, not a lot of talent on O or the CS for Sam. But that argument is useless when comparing him to Mayfield.

Baker went from a horrible coach in Hue Jackson, to a in season replacement (Freddie Kitchens) whose inexperience is being touted here by almost everyone as a reason why the Browns will be bad this year. You can’t have it both ways, sorry. Bakers coaches sucked also. So stop with the “well Sam had bad coaches stuff.”

As far as talent, please. The Browns won what? One game in two years before Baker? They were 0-2 again last year and down 14-0 when Baker came off the bench week 3 and led them to a win against the Jets.

Again, you can’t have it both ways.The only change in the team that won once in 34 games, then suddenly went 7-6-1 was Baker Mayfield. So stop with the “he had better talent stuff.”

Baker had a record breaking year. He was better then Sam. It wasn’t even close. Sorry. There is no way for anyone to logically argue this fact. You might LIKE Sam more, or FEEL he may become the better player, but he wasn’t better last year.

 

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2 hours ago, 14 in Green said:

As far as talent, please. The Browns won what? One game in two years before Baker? They were 0-2 again last year and down 14-0 when Baker came off the bench week 3 and led them to a win against the Jets.

 

Are we really going to ignore Jarvis Landry, Antonio Calloway, David Njoku, Nick Chubb and a significantly better OL?

look I’m not saying you aren’t right but the browns record and their offensive talent doesn’t really have the connection you are trying to make them have. They had been steadily stocking up on offensive talent for quite some time. They lost games because they didn’t have the QB. This all came together for them just this past year.

This would be my only gripe with your post, otherwise, it’s a fair post.

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On 7/13/2019 at 3:39 PM, FidelioJet said:

Be careful, the Gase police will be coming after you. 

Didn't you know he was an offensive genius?  He should not be judged on his actual performance - his failures were everyone else fault.

Really. 

Not what ex players say.

Not why Manning says.

Cutler.

just throw it out there that he should have let the injured Tannehill throw it all over the place.

And listen to the same old whining by Fidelio.  Every thread, every day, all day.  Don't have anything to say, call those who don't agree or who understand the game the "Gase police". Lol, so cute.  Then imagine and throw out as fact that having an injured QB for the majority of his 1 out of 3 stops is blaming his "failures" on everyone else.  

Amazing

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41 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

Are we really going to ignore Jarvis Landry, Antonio Calloway, David Njoku, Nick Chubb and a significantly better OL?

look I’m not saying you aren’t right but the browns record and their offensive talent doesn’t really have the connection you are trying to make them have. They had been steadily stocking up on offensive talent for quite some time. They lost games because they didn’t have the QB. This all came together for them just this past year.

This would be my only gripe with your post, otherwise, it’s a fair post.

You make a good point about them only needing a QB.

i could try to counter it with “how really talented were those guys if they were historically bad for two years and two more games”, but we’d both be spinning our wheels.

Plus if I’m being honest, I don’t want to die on that hill because there’s a big part of me that agrees with you. The talent of the two teams wasn’t the main point of what I’ve been debating in this thread anyway.

It somehow evolved there away from the main topic, which was #1 surprise at someone taking Mayfield first in the draft over Darnold, and then went to #2 about how Darnold actually showed he was the better QB last year.

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15 hours ago, SAR I said:

In terms of pedigree and experience level, Adam Gase trumps them all.

SAR I

At least at the time of hiring. I wanted an experienced HC this time around. Like you've been saying forever, no more rookie HCs. Can't afford to have a guy learning on the job while he supposed to be developing Sam. I was skeptical, wanted McCarthy (looks like that it was for the best that we passed on him), but the fact that he had the acumen and ability to figure out what an albatross Macc was, and dispatch him without much trouble, has really made me a supporter. 

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18 hours ago, 14 in Green said:

Agree with you about Allen and the running last year, but he also has the strongest arm of the QBs taken last year in my opinion. He’s very wild with it though. When you look at their seasons though, there wasn’t much to separate him and Darnold.

And Browning Nagle had at worst the same type arm as Allen. Somehow never developed.  

Darnold has 85+% of his arm, can make every throw, never comes up short on his ability to hit a pass.  The rest of their games Darnold is ahead of Allen in every area other than running forward for yardage.  More importantly Darnold is better in the pocket, better at sliding around the pocket and in just about every way that you should judge a QB. 

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11 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Really. 

Not what ex players say.

Not why Manning says.

Cutler.

just throw it out there that he should have let the injured Tannehill throw it all over the place.

And listen to the same old whining by Fidelio.  Every thread, every day, all day.  Don't have anything to say, call those who don't agree or who understand the game the "Gase police". Lol, so cute.  Then imagine and throw out as fact that having an injured QB for the majority of his 1 out of 3 stops is blaming his "failures" on everyone else.  

Amazing

Every time I read one of your posts on the topic of Gase, I start hearing you singing this song in the back of my head.....

Thankfully, in just a few months, we will all be able to evaluate Gase and his performance for ourselves, on our team, with a very talented offense led by a great young developing QB prospect and one of if not the best RB in the NFL.

We won't have to argue over if Gase's past.  We'll all have Gase's present to think about instead. 

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21 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

And Browning Nagle had at worst the same type arm as Allen. Somehow never developed.  

Darnold has 85+% of his arm, can make every throw, never comes up short on his ability to hit a pass.  The rest of their games Darnold is ahead of Allen in every area other than running forward for yardage.  More importantly Darnold is better in the pocket, better at sliding around the pocket and in just about every way that you should judge a QB. 

The other thing I think in terms of  “accuracy” is, accurate guys rarely if ever miss the easy throws. 

How often did Sam miss wide open guys or sail or skip passes. How difficult did he make throws hard to catch. 

Then think back to Mark (who I liked) who was constantly missing the easy ones, throwing behind or too far in front or throwing at the receivers feet.  

Sanchez was an inaccurate QB that was never going to improve his comp %. 

Sam is very accurate and his comp % will climb over the next few years and then settle in at the 65% plus rate.

Doesn’t mean he’s become more accurate, just that things will naturally fall into place as he matures. 

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