Mahomes > Brady

[PFSIKH]

On 2/2/2020 at 10:21 PM, Ohio State NY Jets fan said:

Yes, and Montana is still the GOAT undefeated with zero interceptions in the Super Bowl

The G.O.A.T. has indefensible arguments.

Montana:  See above.

Brady:  7 rings and 2-0 against Pat when it mattered the most including 1-0 in the Superbowl.

Pat:  He is more gifted than Brady.  His only argument will be getting close in numbers (he is 60K passing yards and 400 TDs behind; he will be 29 next season) and knocking off things like 'back-to-back' champions off Brady's list.

 

[TuscanyTile2]

On 2/3/2020 at 11:01 AM, jgb said:

lol what Brady won his first ring with a team so terrible even Belichick was overheard after the game, "Can you believe we won, with this @#%*ing team?!?"

Whatever you think of that team, that BB would make such a statement seems pretty hard to believe.

[TuscanyTile2]

15 minutes ago, PFSIKH said:

The G.O.A.T. has indefensible arguments.

Montana:  See above.

Brady:  7 rings and 2-0 against Pat when it mattered the most including 1-0 in the Superbowl.

Pat:  He is more gifted than Brady.  His only argument will be getting close in numbers (he is 60K passing yards and 400 TDs behind; he will be 29 next season) and knocking off things like 'back-to-back' champions off Brady's list.

Had Mahomes won even 1 of those 2 matchups, it might be a different story.  The fact that he lost both almost puts things beyond reach.

Amazingly, though, had Mahomes won both head-to-head matchups (and went on to finish the job after winning the AFC CG in that first meeting), Brady would have 5 rings and Mahomes would be going for ring #5 right now.  And having beaten him head-to-head 2x, he'd basically be going for GOAT status in 2 weeks at age 28!!!!

[Sonny Werblin]

Mahomes has reached dangerous territory. Basically, hitting and hurting (not intentionally injuring) him are the only way to slow him down. He really has left D's with no other option to try to prevent him from picking them apart as he extends plays with his miraculous pocket sense, balance and vision.

[TuscanyTile2]

2 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Mahomes has reached dangerous territory. Basically, hitting and hurting (not intentionally injuring) him are the only way to slow him down. He really has left D's with no other option to try to prevent him from picking them apart as he extends plays with his miraculous pocket sense, balance and vision.

The DL on the Ravens yesterday tried to slam his face.

[JiFtheOracle]

Mahomes > Rodgers > Manning > Brady 

 

[TuscanyTile2]

14 minutes ago, JustInFudge said:

Mahomes > Rodgers > Manning > Brady 

 

How about "Mormon Mahomes"?  Where does he fit in this equation?

[PFSIKH]

1 hour ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Had Mahomes won even 1 of those 2 matchups, it might be a different story.  The fact that he lost both almost puts things beyond reach.

Amazingly, though, had Mahomes won both head-to-head matchups (and went on to finish the job after winning the AFC CG in that first meeting), Brady would have 5 rings and Mahomes would be going for ring #5 right now.  And having beaten him head-to-head 2x, he'd basically be going for GOAT status in 2 weeks at age 28!!!!

Yeah and if Brady beat did not lose to Eli twice or Nick Foles, he could have 10.

Mahomes is already going for it.  Everything he does is to cement his legacy and make arguments.

The only thing that will derail Patrick is his environment.  How long does Andy Reid stay?  Keep adding talent while his price is in the 50 million range. 

[TuscanyTile2]

7 minutes ago, PFSIKH said:

Yeah and if Brady beat did not lose to Eli twice or Nick Foles, he could have 10.

Mahomes is already going for it.  Everything he does is to cement his legacy and make arguments.

The only thing that will derail Patrick is his environment.  How long does Andy Reid stay?  Keep adding talent while his price is in the 50 million range. 

To be honest, Brady was very fortunate to not have at least 2 more losses (Atlanta and Seattle) and there was likely cheating going on in possibly all 3 of their 1st 3 SB wins (which were all by 3 points so the cheating might've been the difference).

Regardless, with the 7 that TB12 has, I don't think Mahomes can catch him.  And even if he somehow miraculously does, he still is 0-2 head-to-head against TB12, which really makes 8 the number he needs to surpass TB12.  I can't see any way that he gets there.  If he beats SF to get to 3, that's already insanely rarefied air (though not even half what TB12 got to).

Andy Reid isn't retiring anytime soon btw.  He might as well ride Mahomes for as much as he can get out of him (how often do you coach a guy of that level of greatness) plus I'm sure he probably wants to pass both BB and Shula.

I don't think Mahomes' $50M will be that big of a deal, btw.  When the cap goes up, it'll probably look like a bargain.  If Mr Pfizer retires, though, they're really going to need to add weapinzz.  Maybe a trade up for Brock Bowers?

[greenwichjetfan]

4 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

To be honest, Brady was very fortunate to not have at least 2 more losses (Atlanta and Seattle) and there was likely cheating going on in possibly all 3 of their 1st 3 SB wins (which were all by 3 points so the cheating might've been the difference).

Regardless, with the 7 that TB12 has, I don't think Mahomes can catch him.  And even if he somehow miraculously does, he still is 0-2 head-to-head against TB12, which really makes 8 the number he needs to surpass TB12.  I can't see any way that he gets there.  If he beats SF to get to 3, that's already insanely rarefied air (though not even half what TB12 got to).

Mahomes has already surpassed everyone in just about every category except for Brady and the rings; and he's way ahead of him in every category based on age. The only people that really have any pushback on Mahomes as the GOAT are pats fans, and they are scared as sh*t of every big game he plays because they know that even their push back gets weaker and weaker. 

[Jetsplayer21]

On 2/2/2020 at 10:48 PM, Blackout said:

Facts 

If he loses to “ Mr irrelevant “ he must  go down as the biggest choke artist in NFL history:) 

 We do know Andy Reid is much better than bill bellichick. He’s won everywhere he went. While bill has only won with Tom Brady. Horrible without. Would like to see mohomes go to another team like Brady did and win 1 end of his career, without Reid. Then he can be compared to Tom, maybe. 

[Jetsplayer21]

29 minutes ago, PFSIKH said:

Yeah and if Brady beat did not lose to Eli twice or Nick Foles, he could have 10.

Mahomes is already going for it.  Everything he does is to cement his legacy and make arguments.

The only thing that will derail Patrick is his environment.  How long does Andy Reid stay?  Keep adding talent while his price is in the 50 million range. 

Don’t forget the jets in 2011 ( 2010 season ) . That was perhaps their second best team during run. 14-2 heading into div playoff game vs jets. 1 of those loses vs jets earlier in yr. That team was stacked and heavily favored to win it all. 

[Jerichoholic]

On 2/3/2020 at 2:18 PM, Warfish said:

Mahomes is 24.

Brady is 42.

One is great.  One is the all time greatest.

* One is the ** current** all time greatest.

[Jet2020]

He’s on his way to overtake Brady but he’s got a decade and a half to go at this level before he can be crowned the greatest of this century. I say that because a lot changed around the switch of the century and Brady was in the midst of it. 

Head to head in SB, Mahomes couldn’t keep up. 

The cheating aspect is another story but he did go on to prove he was perfectly capable of winning on multiple teams. 

[Jet2020]

57 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Mahomes has already surpassed everyone in just about every category except for Brady and the rings; and he's way ahead of him in every category based on age. The only people that really have any pushback on Mahomes as the GOAT are pats fans, and they are scared as sh*t of every big game he plays because they know that even their push back gets weaker and weaker. 

I’m not a Pats fan. Mahomes is on track to beat out Brady. Which means he hasn’t yet. Has more than a decade and a half to go at this rate to beat him. Brady had 3 rings in 4 years. Mahomes has 2 in 5. 

[PFSIKH]

1 hour ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

To be honest, Brady was very fortunate to not have at least 2 more losses (Atlanta and Seattle) and there was likely cheating going on in possibly all 3 of their 1st 3 SB wins (which were all by 3 points so the cheating might've been the difference).

Regardless, with the 7 that TB12 has, I don't think Mahomes can catch him.  And even if he somehow miraculously does, he still is 0-2 head-to-head against TB12, which really makes 8 the number he needs to surpass TB12.  I can't see any way that he gets there.  If he beats SF to get to 3, that's already insanely rarefied air (though not even half what TB12 got to).

Andy Reid isn't retiring anytime soon btw.  He might as well ride Mahomes for as much as he can get out of him (how often do you coach a guy of that level of greatness) plus I'm sure he probably wants to pass both BB and Shula.

I don't think Mahomes' $50M will be that big of a deal, btw.  When the cap goes up, it'll probably look like a bargain.  If Mr Pfizer retires, though, they're really going to need to add weapinzz.  Maybe a trade up for Brock Bowers?

Of the Brady/Belichick Superbowl's, only the LA Rams one was by more than one score.    Even that game was close up until the last couple of minutes when they kicked the FG.  They could have been 3-6 instead of 6-3.  

I do not think Andy is retiring either.  There was talk about it last year.  Now, there is talk about it this year.  He could make a serious push for the wins record if he stays.  I am not saying Bill was a picture of good health.  At least I have seen him on an elliptical doing something.  Andy...not so much.

 As far as Patrick, I wish the Patriots had that problem.  $50 million is still a huge percentage of the cap.  

[greenwichjetfan]

56 minutes ago, Jet2020 said:

I’m not a Pats fan. Mahomes is on track to beat out Brady. Which means he hasn’t yet. Has more than a decade and a half to go at this rate to beat him. Brady had 3 rings in 4 years. Mahomes has 2 in 5. 

Omitting both of their first years in the league since they both sat their first years behind a from #1 overall pick, here's a comparison of their first 6 years starting in the league:

Regular Season:
- Mahomes has 2 NFL MVPs. Brady had 0.
- Mahomes has 2 AP1s and 1 AP2. Brady had 0 AP1 and 1 AP2. 
- Mahomes has 6 PBs. Brady had 3.
- Mahomes completed 66.5% for 28k yards, 219 TDs, 62 Ints, 1389 FDs. Brady completed 61.9% for 21.5k yards, 147 TDs, 78 Ints, 1065 FDs.
- Mahomes had 14 fourth quarter comebacks, 15 game winning drives. Brady had 13 and 18 respectively.
- Mahomes has only 1 season where his defense was top-5 in scoring, and it's this season. Brady had 4 top-5 scoring defenses, and in the other two years he missed the playoffs and lost in the divisional round.
To account for the difference in number of regular season games played in their first 6 years:
- Per attempt, Mahomes is throwing 6.2% TDs, 1.7% Ints, 39.1% FDs. Brady threw 4.8% TDs, 2.5% Ints, 34.8% FDs.

Postseason (Keep in mind that Mahomes numbers and accolades through his first 6 years will change two weeks from now):
- Mahomes has 6 AFFCGs and 4 SB appearances. Brady had 4 AFCCGs, 3 SBs, and missed the playoffs 1 year.
- Mahomes has 2 SB MVPs. Brady had 2 SB MVPs.
- Mahomes is completing 67.4% for 4.8k yards, 39 TDs, 7 Ints, 245 FDs. Brady completed 60.7% for 20 TDs, 9 Ints, 161 FDs. 
- Mahomes has 4 fourth quarter comebacks, 5 game winning drives. Brady had 3 and 5 respectively.
To account for the difference in number of playoff games played in their first 6 years:
- Per attempt, Mahomes is throwing 6.2% TDs, 1.1% Ints, 39.1% FDs. Brady threw 4.1% TDs, 1.9% Ints, 33.1% FDs.

Mahomes has surpassed Brady in every single category except rings if you compare their first 6 years starting, and if Mahomes wins his next game, he'll be tied with Brady for rings. Mahomes is better than Brady per attempt in every category, and actually played better in the playoffs whereas Brady's numbers dipped in the playoffs. Mahomes has been the focal point of their team whereas Brady was largely in the background behind stellar defenses and strong running games.

There's also the eye-test (Mahomes is the clear winner), the confirmed cheating scandals (Brady 1, Mahomes 0 through their first 6 years), and the unconfirmed cheating scandals (Brady took money under the table to allow the pats to sign better players against the cap, whereas Mahomes is not taking any type of money off the table and might have cost himself multiple years of having Tyreek and even better numbers).

[Hex]

13 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

How about "Mormon Mahomes"?  Where does he fit in this equation?

And Mormon Montana?

[Sonny Werblin]

20 hours ago, PFSIKH said:

Yeah and if Brady beat did not lose to Eli twice or Nick Foles, he could have 10.

Mahomes is already going for it.  Everything he does is to cement his legacy and make arguments.

The only thing that will derail Patrick is his environment.  How long does Andy Reid stay?  Keep adding talent while his price is in the 50 million range. 

Brady did it without Bellichick. Mahomes has to win without Reid to be the Goat. 

[neckdemon]

21 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

To be honest, Brady was very fortunate to not have at least 2 more losses (Atlanta and Seattle) and there was likely cheating going on in possibly all 3 of their 1st 3 SB wins (which were all by 3 points so the cheating might've been the difference).

Regardless, with the 7 that TB12 has, I don't think Mahomes can catch him.  And even if he somehow miraculously does, he still is 0-2 head-to-head against TB12, which really makes 8 the number he needs to surpass TB12.  I can't see any way that he gets there.  If he beats SF to get to 3, that's already insanely rarefied air (though not even half what TB12 got to).

Andy Reid isn't retiring anytime soon btw.  He might as well ride Mahomes for as much as he can get out of him (how often do you coach a guy of that level of greatness) plus I'm sure he probably wants to pass both BB and Shula.

I don't think Mahomes' $50M will be that big of a deal, btw.  When the cap goes up, it'll probably look like a bargain.  If Mr Pfizer retires, though, they're really going to need to add weapinzz.  Maybe a trade up for Brock Bowers?

numbers dont tell the whole story. and qbs don't play head to head agaisnt eachother, this isn't boxing. mahomes is a superior qb. if you are putting a team together and you want to pick the best qb if you aren't picking mahomes over brady you are putting together an inferior team. brady was great no doubt. mahomes is better though

[neckdemon]

On 1/29/2024 at 8:30 AM, PFSIKH said:

The G.O.A.T. has indefensible arguments.

Montana:  See above.

Brady:  7 rings and 2-0 against Pat when it mattered the most including 1-0 in the Superbowl.

Pat:  He is more gifted than Brady.  His only argument will be getting close in numbers (he is 60K passing yards and 400 TDs behind; he will be 29 next season) and knocking off things like 'back-to-back' champions off Brady's list.

 

lol mahomes whole line was backups that superbowl. these things matter. brady was probably the least hit qb i've ever seen. which is actually impressive given how unathletic he was. credit the olines. and if he was hit the "roughing the brady" call was not far behind. you said it yourself, mahomes is more gifted. brady was great, but once you get into the discusssion of who was best, especially between qbs who have multiple superbowl appearances and wins, that number becomes less important. getting to and winnign a superbowl isn't just on the qb. like i said above, if you are putting a team together to win one game, you are picking mahomes over brady. if not then you have a slightly more inferior team.

[Rhg1084]

Mahomes is obviously a better player than Brady not sure that’s really debatable 

[PFSIKH]

On 1/30/2024 at 7:45 AM, neckdemon said:

lol mahomes whole line was backups that superbowl. these things matter. brady was probably the least hit qb i've ever seen. which is actually impressive given how unathletic he was. credit the olines. and if he was hit the "roughing the brady" call was not far behind. you said it yourself, mahomes is more gifted. brady was great, but once you get into the discusssion of who was best, especially between qbs who have multiple superbowl appearances and wins, that number becomes less important. getting to and winnign a superbowl isn't just on the qb. like i said above, if you are putting a team together to win one game, you are picking mahomes over brady. if not then you have a slightly more inferior team.

And?

I agree those things matter, but in the end it does not.  

For that game, yes you can argue, if Mahomes had his starting tackles he might have had a chance to win.  The Chiefs D was not great that night, but that is not my point.  It might matter in the immediate aftermath of the game, but as time marches on it is whether the QB won.

My point is this.  Dan Marino is often cited as being the most talented QB ever.  However, he is not in the G.O.A.T. discussion because he has zero rings.  For a QB, that is all that matters.  The argument begins and ends with the rings.  

Montana was not more gifted than Marino.  Or Elway.  Or Jim Kelly.  Or Steve Young.  Or Farve.  Yet, in many circles he is the G.O.A.T. "He was 4-0 in the Superbowl with 11 TDs and 0 INTs" yadda yadda yadda.

 

 

[neckdemon]

1 hour ago, PFSIKH said:

And?

I agree those things matter, but in the end it does not.  

For that game, yes you can argue, if Mahomes had his starting tackles he might have had a chance to win.  The Chiefs D was not great that night, but that is not my point.  It might matter in the immediate aftermath of the game, but as time marches on it is whether the QB won.

My point is this.  Dan Marino is often cited as being the most talented QB ever.  However, he is not in the G.O.A.T. discussion because he has zero rings.  For a QB, that is all that matters.  The argument begins and ends with the rings.  

Montana was not more gifted than Marino.  Or Elway.  Or Jim Kelly.  Or Steve Young.  Or Farve.  Yet, in many circles he is the G.O.A.T. "He was 4-0 in the Superbowl with 11 TDs and 0 INTs" yadda yadda yadda.

 

 

No it doesn't. You can say it does but that's just your opinion. Marino has no rings, that's a different story. Mahomet already has 2 and is going to his 4th superbowl. In this case we go beyond the rings and look at who is/was actually a better quarterback. Mahomes is a better player than Brady was. Brady was also caught cheating and was part of systemic cheating. So there's that

[PFSIKH]

1 hour ago, neckdemon said:

No it doesn't. You can say it does but that's just your opinion. Marino has no rings, that's a different story. Mahomet already has 2 and is going to his 4th superbowl. In this case we go beyond the rings and look at who is/was actually a better quarterback. Mahomes is a better player than Brady was. Brady was also caught cheating and was part of systemic cheating. So there's that

It is about rings.  Your opinion states the GOAT conversation starts when the QB has "multiple"...and that is your opinion.  Plus, my 'gifted' is not what you think.  Does Patrick have more athletic ability?  Tons more.  Is he a better passer?  I do not know if I would say that.  

As I said originally in this thread, the GOAT topic has indefensible arguments.

Montana is 4-0 with a gazillon QB Rating.

Brady has 7 rings.  He has been in 10.  More than every team not named New England.  Again, he is 2-0 against Patrick.  Winning in KC and in a Superbowl.

Indefensible facts.

Is Patrick in the conversation?  Yes.  I think you can argue he should be considered if not on the QB Mount Rushmore.  If the Chiefs win, Patrick would have back-to-back and 3 in 5.  That would remove two arguments for Brady.

I am not of the opinion that Brady is the G.O.A.T. and will be for all time.  I think it is Tom..right now.  In five years, my opinion might change depending on what Patrick has done.  

[LIJetsFan]

On 2/2/2020 at 10:48 PM, Blackout said:

Facts 

I haven't read beyond the OP because I opened this threat with the express purpose of saying STOP.    

[neckdemon]

1 hour ago, PFSIKH said:

It is about rings.  Your opinion states the GOAT conversation starts when the QB has "multiple"...and that is your opinion.  Plus, my 'gifted' is not what you think.  Does Patrick have more athletic ability?  Tons more.  Is he a better passer?  I do not know if I would say that.  

As I said originally in this thread, the GOAT topic has indefensible arguments.

Montana is 4-0 with a gazillon QB Rating.

Brady has 7 rings.  He has been in 10.  More than every team not named New England.  Again, he is 2-0 against Patrick.  Winning in KC and in a Superbowl.

Indefensible facts.

Is Patrick in the conversation?  Yes.  I think you can argue he should be considered if not on the QB Mount Rushmore.  If the Chiefs win, Patrick would have back-to-back and 3 in 5.  That would remove two arguments for Brady.

I am not of the opinion that Brady is the G.O.A.T. and will be for all time.  I think it is Tom..right now.  In five years, my opinion might change depending on what Patrick has done.  

again your opinion. i said its not only about the rings. your opinion is its only about the rings. imo it's not, there isn't only one factor involved. you can say it is only about the rings if you want.....you can have that opinion. brady was great (he was also a proven cheater). mahomes is better.

[SAM SAM HE'S OUR MAN]

Mahomes is so good because he spent his childhood shagging flies at Shea Stadium .  

 

[Hael]

Eh, I don’t know if I take Mahomes over prime Brady (2007 or 2011 versions).. Its close.  The irony is the most dominant versions of Brady were on teams where he didn’t win rings.

Mahomes does some things clearly better than Brady, but Brady does things that Mahomes can’t do either.   Those things are often overlooked and look less spectacular, but they are nonetheless super valuable in the playoffs (and which directly led to him having an edge in the h2h)

I also think Brady, like Montana is a slightly better big game qb.  Still I take Pat’s first six years over Bradys (despite the ring differential, as he is simply a better qb at this stage)

The real difference maker though, if I was starting a new franchise, is the fact that Brady is like half the salary cap price.  That’s just not fair and makes it a pretty easy pick.

[slimjasi]

Patrick's first 6 seasons constitute the single most impressive 6 year start to a career in the history of NFL QBs. Hence, Mahomes is clearly on pace to surpass Brady. I find that almost irrefutable.

BUT, he has a long way to go. Brady was great for 20 years. Mahomes has been great for 6.

It's really hard to compare someone who is retired to someone who is still in his prime. Let's see where Patrick's career goes from here. 

[hawk]

The GOAT is an unfair statement due to the shift in the way the game is played.  I feel that way when Mahommes is in the conversation and I feel that way when Brady is.

I feel Drew Brees is in my generation.

That said, I believe Mahomes could have play in any Era, Brady wouldn't have lasted if not for the soft version of the game today.

[PFSIKH]

18 hours ago, neckdemon said:

again your opinion. i said its not only about the rings. your opinion is its only about the rings. imo it's not, there isn't only one factor involved. you can say it is only about the rings if you want.....you can have that opinion. brady was great (he was also a proven cheater). mahomes is better.

Proven?  The "more probable than not" that was disproven by a 6th grader's science project...but I digress.

I do not necessarily disagree with your arbitrary thing to determine the GOAT.  It is about the rings.  If the Chiefs win, Patrick is only looking up at  Joe and Tom.  

Again, IMHO, he is in discussion for if not on the QB Mount Rushmore.

[greenwichjetfan]

1 hour ago, PFSIKH said:

Again, IMHO, he is in discussion for if not on the QB Mount Rushmore.

GOAT discussions are subjective and biased, agreed. 

I've posted Mahomes and Brady's first six seasons. If Brady is the majority-consensus GOAT, Mahomes is objectively on pace to shatter that.

Objectively, he's also already a Mt. Rushmore QB. If he retired today, he'd have the greatest consecutive 6 year stretch in both the regular season and postseason in NFL history.

Next Sunday's game is only going to contribute or detract from the argument of: Patrick Mahomes is the GOAT. 

[PFSIKH]

20 hours ago, greenwichjetfan said:

GOAT discussions are subjective and biased, agreed. 

I've posted Mahomes and Brady's first six seasons. If Brady is the majority-consensus GOAT, Mahomes is objectively on pace to shatter that.

Objectively, he's also already a Mt. Rushmore QB. If he retired today, he'd have the greatest consecutive 6 year stretch in both the regular season and postseason in NFL history.

Next Sunday's game is only going to contribute or detract from the argument of: Patrick Mahomes is the GOAT. 

Mahomes is a system QB.  😉

I totally agree.  

The only thing I would slightly push back on is the numbers comparison for their first six seasons.  It is a different game now.  Brady's career start the pendulum favoring the passing game was on the way down, but it is not where it is now.  

Now, I am not trying to conflate Brady would have superior numbers if he started in 2017.  Or having Andy probably helped Patrick's numbers (they did).  I think it is apparent, the Chiefs had more faith in Mahomes earlier than the Patriots had in Brady.  Brady outplayed Drew during the 2001 preseason, but he was QB#2 when 2001 kicked off.

[Randy Rasmussen]

Dan Marino, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees and Mahomes are all greater than Brady.  I think Mahomes will eventually be the GOAT!!

How many rings does Marino have again?


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