Report: Jets not expected to reach deal with Maye

[Mogglez]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

And what is given that we know so far? From what's been leaked (assuming it's true):

1. Maye has a contract for 1 year at $10.6MM. (All salary, and all exclusively for the 2021 season alone; any extension talks were effectively for 2022 and beyond.)

2. Maye rejected a team offer of a 2 year $13.4MM ($6.7MM/yr) extension past 2021.

Absent a total facepalm of a 2021 season, I think it's unlikely Maye will be in for any "rude awakening" you alluded to where he finds none of the league's safety-needy teams would ante up more than that (if not much more).

There are presently 6 safeties with contracts of $14MM/yr or more. Then there are at least 4 more likely to be around or above that level in Adams, Minkah Fitz, Derwin James, and Marcus Williams. Also possibly Peppers, Savage, and more when their opportunities arise (they'll get more than $8MM/year). The going rate for an above average veteran safety FA in his prime clearly isn't $8MM. I don't personally value non-omg safeties in that $14MM range, but it's hard to deny many teams do.

I'd rather they just tagged him and left it at that, with no preseason promises of working out a (fair market) extension. Easy enough to rationalize with a new coaching staff coming in. The player may not like it, but it's clear he really despises the route they did take.

The “rude awakening” that Maye is in for is that his position is already viewed as non-important and being a 30 year old FA (assuming he is tagged again) seriously hinders what he is going to get in term of length and total value.  The oldest player you listed above is Jabril Peppers, who is currently 25 years old.  Those are the guys that are going to get that Justin Simmons/Eddie Jackson money (although I’d argue Derwin James doesn’t sniff that money unless he proves that he is healthy and is still the same player).  They’re still young and full of upside.

Again, my point is that every circumstance makes signing Maye a bad idea for the Jets.  They also have so much leverage that they don’t really need to be in any rush to get something done.  That being said, I’m sure the Jets would love to extend him now at their proposed price if they could, but they’re not stupid.  They knew he was never going to take that offer.  The Steelers did the same thing with Bell.  Ultimately, it never materialized, they just tagged Bell until it didn’t make sense to keep him around any longer, and then they let him walk.  They still tried though.  That’s exactly what Douglas is doing.  As far as your criticism of “preseason promises”?  Douglas never publicly came out and said they’re going to make him one of the highest paid safeties in the league.  He said that he would like to keep him a Jet long-term.  That isn’t anything crazy.  That’s no wild promise.  It’s simply: “We like him and would love to have him here if we can make it work.”

[Mogglez]

53 minutes ago, Jackie Treehorn said:

I get that thing about non-premium position, but maybe Maye agrees with PFF and considers himself the best player on the team? I don’t agree, just providing info. 
 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-power-rankings-for-the-2021-nfl-season

The team’s best player being a Safety explains that 1% Super Bowl probability perfectly.

[jgb]

1 hour ago, Jackie Treehorn said:

I get that thing about non-premium position, but maybe Maye agrees with PFF and considers himself the best player on the team? I don’t agree, just providing info. 
 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-power-rankings-for-the-2021-nfl-season

1%? Much less likely than that. The mean probability is 3.2%.

I’d need a lot longer odds than 100-to-1 to bet Jets.

[Sperm Edwards]

2 hours ago, Mogglez said:

The “rude awakening” that Maye is in for is that his position is already viewed as non-important and being a 30 year old FA (assuming he is tagged again) seriously hinders what he is going to get in term of length and total value.  The oldest player you listed above is Jabril Peppers, who is currently 25 years old.  Those are the guys that are going to get that Justin Simmons/Eddie Jackson money (although I’d argue Derwin James doesn’t sniff that money unless he proves that he is healthy and is still the same player).  They’re still young and full of upside.

Again, my point is that every circumstance makes signing Maye a bad idea for the Jets.  They also have so much leverage that they don’t really need to be in any rush to get something done.  That being said, I’m sure the Jets would love to extend him now at their proposed price if they could, but they’re not stupid.  They knew he was never going to take that offer.  The Steelers did the same thing with Bell.  Ultimately, it never materialized, they just tagged Bell until it didn’t make sense to keep him around any longer, and then they let him walk.  They still tried though.  That’s exactly what Douglas is doing.  As far as your criticism of “preseason promises”?  Douglas never publicly came out and said they’re going to make him one of the highest paid safeties in the league.  He said that he would like to keep him a Jet long-term.  That isn’t anything crazy.  That’s no wild promise.  It’s simply: “We like him and would love to have him here if we can make it work.”

There's a wide chasm between the team's reported top offer and making him one of the highest paid safeties in the league. If it's reported accurately, the team's top offer was closer to half that - nominally less than half - than it was to being in that top 5-6 range. The offer was, in effect, a non-offer at ~$6.7MM that had zero chance of being signed. I fail to see the upside of this exercise of stringing the player along for months, and then dropping that on him. 

Saying this publicly months ago: “Yeah, still a priority to keep Marcus here long term and we have had productive texts back and forth with his agent,” Douglas said, according to Pro Football Talk. “So, we’re hoping to really dive into this now that the draft is over,” and then maxing out an extension offer at 2 more years at under $7MM/year is obnoxious and is the stuff that unnecessarily creates bad blood. That is my criticism; not that he should've overpaid for Maye. Just saying nothing would have been far better.

It's not really comparable to Bell's situation. When Pittsburgh first tagged Bell at $8MM or so, they didn't then make Bell an extension offer at $5MM/yr beyond the tag year; let alone while boasting importance and progress on an extension. Never mind how much more wear & tear a bellcow RB gets than a safety (which is a factor); they're just not the same scenarios. 

Regarding Maye's age, in this thread a favorite game (not just you) seems to be exaggerating his age to make it sound like his starting career's just about over. He's just turned 28 in March and is in the prime of his career. A year later he'll turn 29, not 30. Their discussions are about the amounts on a single extra guaranteed season, not an extra guaranteed 3-4 years. Since he's cuttable without costing anything after the guaranteed $ is up, which would be after one additional season maximum, his age is a non-factor and so are the $ amounts in year 3+. You'd think his situation was that of a 29 year-old RB seeking 3 additional guaranteed seasons at $15MM/year. It's not even in the ballpark to being like that.

And if Douglas doesn't want him past this year because he'll be too old, then why make any offer at all to guarantee him lower-end starter money for 2022? You either want him starting for >1 year or you don't. If you don't want him at $11MM next year because he'll be too old to be worthy of starting, then you wouldn't want him at $7MM either, so imo that's a nonsensical rationalization. 

My criticism is not about merely tagging Maye and failing to offer him top 5 safety money that he hasn't earned. I agree with that decision. Rather, my issue is with stringing another player along not just unnecessarily, but also disingenuously; and moreover without any successful follow-throughs after doing the same with other players, to balance out the reputation he's building in this area that could lead to future Jets holdouts that otherwise might not have happened.

Look, on balance so far I'm a Douglas fan. That doesn't therefore mean I have to twist myself into a pretzel to rationalize everything he does and says as being automatically correct by definition. I see plenty of that going on in some type of reverent deference to him, like many did with his predecessors; as though any non-positive critique is akin to blasphemy that must be called out and stomped out. Also I'm aware I lay it on thick, so don't take this crap personally ;).

[32EBoozer]

9 hours ago, Maynard13 said:

Are you talking about Tremble or Baby Gronk. M Mayer is going to be an all pro TE. If he comes out and is there in 2nd round, I run to the podium. 

We missed out on Tremble this year. I’m talking Mayer. Good size and speed; great hands, body control and football smarts Needs to upgrade his blocking but he was only a Freshman. 

Very surprised by Herndon’s exceptional blocking skills from another thread regarding TE and RB blocking. He just disappears for long stretches during the season. Was that Gase play calling, Darnold vision or Herndon didn’t get separation?

I’m just not certain if he’s the answer long term. 

[jgb]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Look, on balance so far I'm a Douglas fan. That doesn't therefore mean I have to twist myself into a pretzel to rationalize everything he does and says as being automatically correct by definition.

A large sub set of fans believe you have to in order to be a Real Fan™. Then once a guy is gone, doublethink kicks in and he sucked all along.

[slats]

14 hours ago, genot said:

Im sorry that im on the players side here. I know that that accepts some people. If your offer was going to be unacceptable to Maye, they should have let him test the free agent waters. Players earn that right after a certain length of service.

I’m always with the player looking to get all that he can. Back when Revis was being vilified in these boards, I was defending his decision to hold out. These guys have a small window to earn and have every right to maximize it. That said, Maye’s no Revis. He’s well within his rights to want more and be unhappy that he’s not getting it right now, but everyone’s playing by the rules here.
 
Maye could’ve refused to sign the tag, but he didn’t. He signed that thing very quickly. Why? Probably something to do with the fact that he saw $10.6M for a year as not the worst worst case scenario. 

13 hours ago, genot said:

You don't agree that if the take it or leave it offer was 20% below the franchise tender it was an offer below what his market value would have been if he was allowed to hit FA.

Or maybe the franchise tag is 20% higher than what Maye’s market value would’ve been, but JD was okay applying it anyway because safety is a low value position with a relatively inexpensive tag that he could afford, and he needs some stability on his team’s secondary. 
 
Even if that $10.6M is right around what he’s worth, that’s what he’s going to make this year. So what’s the complaint? If the Jets want to tag him again next year, I think it’ll be north of $13M to do it and if not he’ll hit the market then. Either way, as long as he stays healthy and performs he’s gonna make his money. I get that players want longer term security, but it’s not the team’s responsibility to offer that if they don’t want/need to. They own his rights as negotiated in the CBA. 

[Jet Nut]

On 7/17/2021 at 8:26 AM, slats said:

The Jets have a long running reputation in this regard, regardless of who the GM is. They’ve paid big money for other teams’ free agents and low-balled and/or let go of their own. It is part of the culture that I’m sure JD would like to change, but giving an above average 28-year-old safety big money isn’t the place to change that perception. This is a young team by design and Maye is a bridge player. He’s not in their long term plans but is important in the short term, and he’s getting paid. 
 
This is a huge year for Fatusaki and Herndon. With big seasons, those are two guys I could see getting paid to stay.  
 
The following year QW is up, then Becton the year after that. These guys play well, they’ll get paid, and the cheap reputation will start to evaporate. 

The problem isnt that they dont want to pay their own players, the problem has been they dont have enough of their own players that have been worth paying.  They paid more than a few deserving players to big deals.  Revis, Sanchez, Holmes, Mo etc.  JD has admitted he should have paid Anderson.  Who are all the players the Jets developed and let walk for big $$ elsewhere and more importantly that were worth it?

All of this is in the face of the fact, or IMO, that Maye's:

1.  Not worth setting the $$ mark for S

2. Is at a position that the Jets shouldnt pay top dollar for 

[slats]

3 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

My criticism is not about merely tagging Maye and failing to offer him top 5 safety money that he hasn't earned. I agree with that decision. Rather, my issue is with stringing another player along not just unnecessarily, but also disingenuously; and moreover without any successful follow-throughs after doing the same with other players, to balance out the reputation he's building in this area that could lead to future Jets holdouts that otherwise might not have happened.

On a scale of 1-10, with 1 being not all that concerned and 10 being this is a major issue, where do rate this one? Because while I’m hearing what you’re saying, I’d put it around a 3. This is the same way he dealt with Leo, Jamal, and Darnold before moving them. He talks up players publicly but, in house, he has his own valuation. I really don’t think this situation will effect what happens in the future with other players. I think the players will (if they already haven’t) figure out that this is JD speak, and it’s always going to be rosy in public. And I don’t think they mind that, either. They’re not going to shut out Douglas because of, “what he did to Maye!” They’re going to listen to his offer and decide whether or not to take it. 
 
In the meantime, as you’ve acknowledged, making 40% more this season than he’s made in his career so far isn’t the worst consolation prize. If my company offered me 6x my previous salary to stay on for another year, I think I may’ve had to do it. 

[slats]

3 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

The problem isnt that they dont want to pay their own players, the problem has been they dont have enough of their own players that have been worth paying.

I agree wholeheartedly. I’ve said as much in this thread. Not many Idzik/Maccagnan draft picks worth not cutting much less extending. That’s just the way it’s been. 
 
I think Herndon and Fatusaki have a shot at nice extensions next season if Fats keeps doing what he’s doing and Herndon rebounds in a very TE friendly offense, but we’ll see. Next up is QW the following year. Can’t just pay people for the sake of demonstrating that you’re willing to. 

[kthisguy]

The “rude awakening” that Maye is in for is that his position is already viewed as non-important and being a 30 year old FA (assuming he is tagged again) seriously hinders what he is going to get in term of length and total value.  The oldest player you listed above is Jabril Peppers, who is currently 25 years old.  Those are the guys that are going to get that Justin Simmons/Eddie Jackson money (although I’d argue Derwin James doesn’t sniff that money unless he proves that he is healthy and is still the same player).  They’re still young and full of upside.
Again, my point is that every circumstance makes signing Maye a bad idea for the Jets.  They also have so much leverage that they don’t really need to be in any rush to get something done.  That being said, I’m sure the Jets would love to extend him now at their proposed price if they could, but they’re not stupid.  They knew he was never going to take that offer.  The Steelers did the same thing with Bell.  Ultimately, it never materialized, they just tagged Bell until it didn’t make sense to keep him around any longer, and then they let him walk.  They still tried though.  That’s exactly what Douglas is doing.  As far as your criticism of “preseason promises”?  Douglas never publicly came out and said they’re going to make him one of the highest paid safeties in the league.  He said that he would like to keep him a Jet long-term.  That isn’t anything crazy.  That’s no wild promise.  It’s simply: “We like him and would love to have him here if we can make it work.”

The Steelers had a 5 year $70 million offer on the table, no where near the same situation as Maye. That was a legitimate offer. The offer had an low guaranteed dollar amount and he’d likely would have paid for two/three years then cut.

Maye should not get $14 million a year however the 7-8 million is not bargaining in good faith. Go into a car dealership/real estate agency/business and offer 20% less and see what happens that has sold offers or (10.6 in hand). JD has every right to not sign him to anything more than the tag. The problem when you hear the reports of the offer it is laughable. Agents will be less likely to engage or negotiate when “serious offers” are not put on the table. Maye makes 10.6 this year the player, agent and the whole world knows this. Why sign a contract that would basically pay you $4-5 for the following year?

The only way he doesn’t make more than that is if he is injured and he will likely have an insurance policy in place for future earnings.

This makes JDs offer as a waste of time for all parties. JD simply should have said we have you the tag. Why waste everyone’s time?


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[Jet Nut]

18 minutes ago, kthisguy said:

 

 

The Steelers had a 5 year $70 million offer on the table, no where near the same situation as Maye. That was a legitimate offer. The offer had an low guaranteed dollar amount and he’d likely would have paid for two/three years then cut.

Maye should not get $14 million a year however the 7-8 million is not bargaining in good faith. Go into a car dealership/real estate agency/business and offer 20% less and see what happens that has sold offers or (10.6 in hand). JD has every right to not sign him to anything more than the tag. The problem when you hear the reports of the offer it is laughable. Agents will be less likely to engage or negotiate when “serious offers” are not put on the table. Maye makes 10.6 this year the player, agent and the whole world knows this. Why sign a contract that would basically pay you $4-5 for the following year?

The only way he doesn’t make more than that is if he is injured and he will likely have an insurance policy in place for future earnings.

This makes JDs offer as a waste of time for all parties. JD simply should have said we have you the tag. Why waste everyone’s time?


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Sports contracts arent real estate deals and even with that offering 20% less than the asking rate for a piece of real estate thats not prime property is perfectly fine while offering 20% less for a prime piece is stupid.  

I dont get how so many here seem to think that $10 mil per is the sweet spot and the $8.5M the Jets supposedly offered is 20% under and insulting.  $1.5M under isnt insulting. Especially when its not a given that hes even worth the $10m per or that he could get it elsewhere

[Savage69]

2 hours ago, jgb said:

A large sub set of fans believe you have to in order to be a Real Fan™. Then once a guy is gone, doublethink kicks in and he sucked all along.

After Mac I think JD has been a breath of fresh air. Last year some wanted Q gone for a 3rd rd pick this year some think Becton is fat and lazy.. Everyone can have a opinion right or wrong. I do agree the Real fan thing is sometimes mentioned by some when others don't agree with their opinion.. For a example I would put Q and Becton above Maye talent wise but that has nothing to do with being a real fan or not JMO.. 

[kthisguy]

Sports contracts arent real estate deals and even with that offering 20% less than the asking rate for a piece of real estate thats not prime property is perfectly fine while offering 20% less for a prime piece is stupid.  
I dont get how so many here seem to think that $10 mil per is the sweet spot and the $8.5M the Jets supposedly offered is 20% under and insulting.  $1.5M under isnt insulting. Especially when its not a given that hes even worth the $10m per or that he could get it elsewhere

Service contracts and real estate are not that much different in the offer process and actually fairly similar. There are out clauses, riders and such. For instance, the house seller (or player) is offered an all cash deal (a high percentage of guaranteed money) they will likely take that over the deal with a higher offer and mortgage contingency clause or for a player higher salary but cut-able in the early years.

In this case Maye is guaranteed 10.6 for this year. It is a bird in the hand. If you want to extending years at a lessor rate you really have to take that 10.6 as a sunk cost knowing that year two, three or whatever will be viewed minus that number. My guess is that JD offer a two maybe three year deal. The years two and three where at too deep of a discount to even make a reasonable offer.

If JD front loaded an offer for this year with the cap he could have worked a deal with lower year 2 &3 Salary and at least showed some good faith. He obviously wants Maye for this year only or he is looking to trade him and it was easier with the Tag vs a contract. Either way being straight with Maye and the agent would have saved some face.


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[Savage69]

14 minutes ago, kthisguy said:

 

Service contracts and real estate are not that much different in the offer process and actually fairly similar. There are out clauses, riders and such. For instance, the house seller (or player) is offered an all cash deal (a high percentage of guaranteed money) they will likely take that over the deal with a higher offer and mortgage contingency clause or for a player higher salary but cut-able in the early years.

In this case Maye is guaranteed 10.6 for this year. It is a bird in the hand. If you want to extending years at a lessor rate you really have to take that 10.6 as a sunk cost knowing that year two, three or whatever will be viewed minus that number. My guess is that JD offer a two maybe three year deal. The years two and three where at too deep of a discount to even make a reasonable offer.

If JD front loaded an offer for this year with the cap he could have worked a deal with lower year 2 &3 Salary and at least showed some good faith. He obviously wants Maye for this year only or he is looking to trade him and it was easier with the Tag vs a contract. Either way being straight with Maye and the agent would have saved some face.


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That's what's happening with Gilmore on the Pats he due to make just 7 million this year 

Contract specifics: In 2017, Gilmore signed a five-year, $65 million deal that included $40 million fully guaranteed for injury and $31 million guaranteed at the time of signing. CB Stephon Gilmore did not attend mandatory minicamp in June.

[Jet Nut]

17 minutes ago, kthisguy said:

 

Service contracts and real estate are not that much different in the offer process and actually fairly similar. There are out clauses, riders and such. For instance, the house seller (or player) is offered an all cash deal (a high percentage of guaranteed money) they will likely take that over the deal with a higher offer and mortgage contingency clause or for a player higher salary but cut-able in the early years.

In this case Maye is guaranteed 10.6 for this year. It is a bird in the hand. If you want to extending years at a lessor rate you really have to take that 10.6 as a sunk cost knowing that year two, three or whatever will be viewed minus that number. My guess is that JD offer a two maybe three year deal. The years two and three where at too deep of a discount to even make a reasonable offer.

If JD front loaded an offer for this year with the cap he could have worked a deal with lower year 2 &3 Salary and at least showed some good faith. He obviously wants Maye for this year only or he is looking to trade him and it was easier with the Tag vs a contract. Either way being straight with Maye and the agent would have saved some face.


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Theyre nothing alike.  A player contract is multiyear and marries you to the player for the length of the deal until you can free yourself of the commitment.  This can limit your roster moves down the road as player contracts are influenced by a moving cap.

Non of this is like real estate.  

[kthisguy]

Theyre nothing alike.  A player contract is multiyear and marries you to the player for the length of the deal until you can free yourself of the commitment.  This can limit your roster moves down the road as player contracts are influenced by a moving cap.
Non of this is like real estate.  

The negotiations of putting together a contract (real estate/service) are far more similar to each other thank you’d think. All kinds of in/out, reverters, penalties these can be fairly limitless.

In both cases the offer has to be there. Offering 20% of market value (10.6 as it is the guaranteed amount for this year) as done by JD (not 20% of the asking price) is a non-starter in any contract negotiation. (I say this with practical experience)




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[jgb]

1 hour ago, Savage69 said:

After Mac I think JD has been a breath of fresh air. Last year some wanted Q gone for a 3rd rd pick this year some think Becton is fat and lazy.. Everyone can have a opinion right or wrong. I do agree the Real fan thing is sometimes mentioned by some when others don't agree with their opinion.. For a example I would put Q and Becton above Maye talent wise but that has nothing to do with being a real fan or not JMO.. 

I am optimistic about JD. Dude seems to know what he is doing.

[kthisguy]

That's what's happening with Gilmore on the Pats he due to make just 7 million this year 
Contract specifics: In 2017, Gilmore signed a five-year, $65 million deal that included $40 million fully guaranteed for injury and $31 million guaranteed at the time of signing. CB Stephon Gilmore did not attend mandatory minicamp in June.

Gilmore signed a long term deal and is unhappy in the final year looking for a last contract. Maye is not a long term guy here. He is a 2-3 year max guy. Signing a two year deal at an average of the tags could have benefited both sides. Jets get a solid professional who plays his position well and in his prime. If one of the draft picks can take his spot then he could be traded for less than a tag price and if Maye plays out the contract he would be free to get one last swing at a contract at age 30.




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[genot]

10 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

And what is given that we know so far? From what's been leaked (assuming it's true):

1. Maye has a contract for 1 year at $10.6MM. (All salary, and all exclusively for the 2021 season alone; any extension talks were effectively for 2022 and beyond.)

2. Maye rejected a team offer of a 2 year $13.4MM ($6.7MM/yr) extension past 2021.

Absent a total facepalm of a 2021 season, I think it's unlikely Maye will be in for any "rude awakening" you alluded to where he finds none of the league's safety-needy teams would ante up more than that (if not much more).

There are presently 6 safeties with contracts of $14MM/yr or more. Then there are at least 4 more likely to be around or above that level in Adams, Minkah Fitz, Derwin James, and Marcus Williams. Also possibly Peppers, Savage, and more when their opportunities arise (they'll get more than $8MM/year). The going rate for an above average veteran safety FA in his prime clearly isn't $8MM. I don't personally value non-omg safeties in that $14MM range, but it's hard to deny many teams do.

I'd rather they just tagged him and left it at that, with no preseason promises of working out a (fair market) extension. Easy enough to rationalize with a new coaching staff coming in. The player may not like it, but it's clear he really despises the route they did take.

Thank you. I don't have the patience you do at the keyboard. Love and respect Mogglez and a bunch of others. The bottom line is based on the public pronouncements about Maye and the desire to extend him. His offer was not an offer maye would have, or should have accepted.

[Jet Nut]

20 hours ago, kthisguy said:

 

 

The negotiations of putting together a contract (real estate/service) are far more similar to each other thank you’d think. All kinds of in/out, reverters, penalties these can be fairly limitless.

In both cases the offer has to be there. Offering 20% of market value (10.6 as it is the guaranteed amount for this year) as done by JD (not 20% of the asking price) is a non-starter in any contract negotiation. (I say this with practical experience)




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Youre just going to keep saying theyre similar when they arent.  There isnt a cap in real estate anymore than a player contract is a 15 or 30 year investment that should bring back the original investment and more.  

Market value is market value.  But $10.6 isnt market value, its you making market value out of a guarantee, thats not market value.  

This has been fun but here's the point.  Contracts take a meeting of the mind and there isnt one between what Maye thinks hes worth and what JD thinks Maye is worth.  Theres nothing wrong with that.  Mayes making close to top money for his position and he wants to be at the top, closer than the top 20% and hes not getting it from the Jets.  He can move on and make top dollar if thats what he thinks he'll get.

Yeah, just like every homeowner thinks his house is worth top dollar.  ?

[jgb]

You’d have to think of the players association is going to push for significant changes to the franchise tag rules come negotiation tim. Something like if you get injured under the tag, you get a set amount the following year.

[kthisguy]

Youre just going to keep saying theyre similar when they arent.  There isnt a cap in real estate anymore than a player contract is a 15 or 30 year investment that should bring back the original investment and more.  
Market value is market value.  But $10.6 isnt market value, its you making market value out of a guarantee, thats not market value.  
This has been fun but here's the point.  Contract take a meeting of the mind and there isnt one between what Maye thinks hes worth and what JD thinks Maye is worth.  Theres nothing wrong with that.  Mayes making close to top money for his position and he wants to be at the top, closer than the top 20% and hes not getting it from the Jets.  He can move on and make top dollar if thats what he thinks he'll get.
Yeah, just like every homeowner thinks his house is worth top dollar.  

Agree to disagree on negotiations. Everyone has a cap. Real estate is not simply buying a house for 15/30 years. There are also investment/commercial long term/short term investments, partial interests, however one common thing in all negotiations is the offer. If deemed too low there is not bargaining the finer points. That is a basic concept in all business.

As for market price that is already set by JD when he tagged him at 10.6. Market value is simply what the market will pay and 10.6 is being paid this market value. If he was not “worth it “ it would not have been offered. To get the number lower you have to add years. Market value is simply what the market will pay.


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[Jet Nut]

2 minutes ago, kthisguy said:

 

Agree to disagree on negotiations. Everyone has a cap. Real estate is not simply buying a house for 15/30 years. There are also investment/commercial long term/short term investments, partial interests, however one common thing in all negotiations is the offer. If deemed too low there is not bargaining the finer points. That is a basic concept in all business.

As for market price that is already set by JD when he tagged him at 10.6. Market value is simply what the market will pay and 10.6 is being paid this market value. If he was not “worth it “ it would not have been offered. To get the number lower you have to add years. Market value is simply what the market will pay.


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Dude, just give it up already.   

Youre wrong on all fronts.  Its not like real estate and the market value wasnt set for a so so FS, because of Mayes one year $10.6 tag.  Thats not close to being market value, its what the Jets were willing to pay this year.  If it were market value they would have offered it as a per year contract.  

Shouldnt you be out selling a house or something?

 

[kthisguy]

Dude, just give it up already.   
Youre wrong on all fronts.  Its not like real estate and the market value wasnt set for a so so FS, because of Mayes one year $10.6 tag.  Thats not close to being market value, its what the Jets were willing to pay this year.  If it were market value they would have offered it as a per year contract.  
Shouldnt you be out selling a house or something?
 

Lol. Sorry, I don’t sell houses. Just been a part of a ton of contract negotiations on various types of transactions. Real estate is just an easy example many people can understand as they have dealt with such transactions. In many cases they have received a lowball offer and nothing comes from it.

What did JD offer on the tag? That is the number that sets the market for 2021. Very simple concept.

All negotiations start with an offer. If it is not legitimate it generally goes no where. People tend not to get invested in protracted negotiations when there is never a serious offer. JD offered a very low offer on the table when there is a set amount sitting there.




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[slats]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

You’d have to think of the players association is going to push for significant changes to the franchise tag rules come negotiation tim. Something like if you get injured under the tag, you get a set amount the following year.

Not a chance. They lost power last CBA in exchange for some weed freedom. That’s how easy it was for management, and they still have more weed freedom to give. Once you give anything up, it’s hard to get back without the strike no one wants. They’ve hated the franchise tag since the onset, but the owners aren’t giving up their rights over these players anytime soon. They just stole any reasonable ability to hold out. I imagine they want more than that, too. Something like 18 games and half the league in the playoffs. 

[Mogglez]

10 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

There's a wide chasm between the team's reported top offer and making him one of the highest paid safeties in the league. If it's reported accurately, the team's top offer was closer to half that - nominally less than half - than it was to being in that top 5-6 range. The offer was, in effect, a non-offer at ~$6.7MM that had zero chance of being signed. I fail to see the upside of this exercise of stringing the player along for months, and then dropping that on him. 

Saying this publicly months ago: “Yeah, still a priority to keep Marcus here long term and we have had productive texts back and forth with his agent,” Douglas said, according to Pro Football Talk. “So, we’re hoping to really dive into this now that the draft is over,” and then maxing out an extension offer at 2 more years at under $7MM/year is obnoxious and is the stuff that unnecessarily creates bad blood. That is my criticism; not that he should've overpaid for Maye. Just saying nothing would have been far better.

I won’t spin it, this a fair criticism.  I did say earlier that I agree that they should just tag him twice and handle it behind close doors.  My only other gripe is that Maye’s agent is the one who decided to go to the media with this first, months ago.  For all we know, JD would have done what we both agreed and said nothing.  Burkhardt kind of forced his hand when he came out and slammed the Jets about hearing nothing months ago.

It's not really comparable to Bell's situation. When Pittsburgh first tagged Bell at $8MM or so, they didn't then make Bell an extension offer at $5MM/yr beyond the tag year; let alone while boasting importance and progress on an extension. Never mind how much more wear & tear a bellcow RB gets than a safety (which is a factor); they're just not the same scenarios. 

I find the situation similar in the sense that Bell was given an offer both parties knew wasn’t going to get it done.  That’s all.

Regarding Maye's age, in this thread a favorite game (not just you) seems to be exaggerating his age to make it sound like his starting career's just about over. He's just turned 28 in March and is in the prime of his career. A year later he'll turn 29, not 30. Their discussions are about the amounts on a single extra guaranteed season, not an extra guaranteed 3-4 years. Since he's cuttable without costing anything after the guaranteed $ is up, which would be after one additional season maximum, his age is a non-factor and so are the $ amounts in year 3+. You'd think his situation was that of a 29 year-old RB seeking 3 additional guaranteed seasons at $15MM/year. It's not even in the ballpark to being like that.

Respectfully disagree with you here, but only time will tell us who is right.  I don’t think Maye is going to get a team to give him what he wants, mainly due to his age, but who truly knows?  There could be someone desperate enough out there.  FWIW, if Maye is tagged next year, he will be 30 at the start of the 2023 season, presumably after signing a deal.  That’s what I mean when I say 30. 

And if Douglas doesn't want him past this year because he'll be too old, then why make any offer at all to guarantee him lower-end starter money for 2022? You either want him starting for >1 year or you don't. If you don't want him at $11MM next year because he'll be too old to be worthy of starting, then you wouldn't want him at $7MM either, so imo that's a nonsensical rationalization.

I think it’s just merely for the sake of seeing if you can get Maye to sign a cheap deal long-term.  The chances are extremely slim, but it can’t hurt the team to try.

My criticism is not about merely tagging Maye and failing to offer him top 5 safety money that he hasn't earned. I agree with that decision. Rather, my issue is with stringing another player along not just unnecessarily, but also disingenuously; and moreover without any successful follow-throughs after doing the same with other players, to balance out the reputation he's building in this area that could lead to future Jets holdouts that otherwise might not have happened.

I don’t foresee it being an issue.  At the end of the day, players stay out of each other’s pockets.  I think the biggest obstacle the team faces is showing the players and FAs that there is a clear plan in place and this is a team on the up and up.

Look, on balance so far I'm a Douglas fan. That doesn't therefore mean I have to twist myself into a pretzel to rationalize everything he does and says as being automatically correct by definition. I see plenty of that going on in some type of reverent deference to him, like many did with his predecessors; as though any non-positive critique is akin to blasphemy that must be called out and stomped out. Also I'm aware I lay it on thick, so don't take this crap personally ;).

Don’t get me wrong lol, I agree.  I look at each topic on a case by case basis.  I can, however, only speak for myself. 

You’re fine Sperm, all love here ?.

 

[Mogglez]

4 hours ago, genot said:

Thank you. I don't have the patience you do at the keyboard. Love and respect Mogglez and a bunch of others. The bottom line is based on the public pronouncements about Maye and the desire to extend him. His offer was not an offer maye would have, or should have accepted.

Even with our disagreement on the majority of this subject (i do agree maye should not accept) I love and respect you too homie. All just good discussions!

[Barton]

He's a safety who doesnt create turnovers...... no reason to pay him big $$

 

[jgb]

4 hours ago, slats said:

Not a chance. They lost power last CBA in exchange for some weed freedom. That’s how easy it was for management, and they still have more weed freedom to give. Once you give anything up, it’s hard to get back without the strike no one wants. They’ve hated the franchise tag since the onset, but the owners aren’t giving up their rights over these players anytime soon. They just stole any reasonable ability to hold out. I imagine they want more than that, too. Something like 18 games and half the league in the playoffs. 

It’ll probably change in some way but I agree no way to the extent players want 

[Defense Wins Championships]

Marcus Maye is not a Joe Douglas pick.

He's nothing more than just another Mike Maccagnan (bust) pick who was picked ahead of one of my All-Time favorite FSU favorites in DALVIN COOK (and I've disliked this Florida Gators Marcus Maye, ever since). 

(only Quinnen Williams is worth keeping long-term from Maccagnan's era)

• He's damn near 30 years old. 

• He's the complete opposite of a ball hawking FS (only 6 career INTs and now heading into his 5th year). 

• Our 2-14 Secondary was atrocious last year and Marcus Maye as the "leader" was a big part of that 2020 secondary (and he did not help to improve it after losing Jamal Adams and that's for sure).

There is a 0.00% chance that Joe Douglas pays this mediocre SAFETY long-term. 

2022 = 1st round pick (ours). 

2022 = 1st round pick (Seattle). 

2022 = 2nd round pick (ours).

2022 = 2nd round pick (Carolina). 

2022 = 3rd round pick (ours). 

He'll become easily replaced 

(CANT WAIT!).

[rex-n-effect]

I like Maye and I think he still has a number of good years left in his career; however, I do not agree he is worth what probably gets another deal done right now. He's a first round pick who has had one great season and some good years which shouldn't command a top five salary unless Saleh desperately wants to keep Maye which doesn't seem to be the case. If he has another great year then maybe he deserves a big contract. The franchise tag is a good opportunity for either side to prove their valuation and move the other side closer to an acceptable meeting point.

As a fan it's frustrating to see these issues left unresolved but this is what a GM should do. A GM should have a valuation for each player and stick to it. Sometimes that means deals will take a long time to manifest. Sometimes it means getting good value on contracts and sometimes that means good players will leave because they think they can get better deals elsewhere. We shouldn't want another GM who is going to rush out to overpay on contracts out of fear of losing a good player. 

 

[JohnnyLV]

On 7/17/2021 at 11:30 PM, Mogglez said:

The “rude awakening” that Maye is in for is that his position is already viewed as non-important and being a 30 year old FA (assuming he is tagged again) seriously hinders what he is going to get in term of length and total value.  The oldest player you listed above is Jabril Peppers, who is currently 25 years old.  Those are the guys that are going to get that Justin Simmons/Eddie Jackson money (although I’d argue Derwin James doesn’t sniff that money unless he proves that he is healthy and is still the same player).  They’re still young and full of upside.

Again, my point is that every circumstance makes signing Maye a bad idea for the Jets.  They also have so much leverage that they don’t really need to be in any rush to get something done.  That being said, I’m sure the Jets would love to extend him now at their proposed price if they could, but they’re not stupid.  They knew he was never going to take that offer.  The Steelers did the same thing with Bell.  Ultimately, it never materialized, they just tagged Bell until it didn’t make sense to keep him around any longer, and then they let him walk.  They still tried though.  That’s exactly what Douglas is doing.  As far as your criticism of “preseason promises”?  Douglas never publicly came out and said they’re going to make him one of the highest paid safeties in the league.  He said that he would like to keep him a Jet long-term.  That isn’t anything crazy.  That’s no wild promise.  It’s simply: “We like him and would love to have him here if we can make it work.”

Even though we might have ultimately lost him for this season, I think that maybe the transition tag would have been smart for Maye, We go let him find his market and then decide whether we want to match. Issue with safeties is that even two tags is not really cost prohibitive so there is not a compelling reason to do that if you are OK with just having Maye 2 more years.

[Embrace the Suck]

So, when did M Maye become an elite safety? When has Maye ever shown himself to be worthy of a top 10 safety contract? He isn't young, he hasn't shown a consistently high level of production, he's an average to good strong safety who was over drafted like his former running mate. You don't start a negotiation by overbidding which you are by offering Maye a top ten safety contract. The cap is 182 million this year and it was 198 last year. Maye isn't worth 5%+ of your cap. Not when you have 22 starters to pay (24 if you count K/P), and many of them are far more important position wise than safety. Maye is a classic case of Jets fans overvaluing an average to good player that they like for various reasons (best player on poor team last year, not jamal adams, ect.). He's already apparently disowned the Jets on social media so no one should be getting butt hurt over this guy. He'll be 30 soon enough and those of you clamoring for him now won't miss him for long if some safety talent gets cut loose and he gets traded. They'll draft his replacement next year with a second or third day pick. 

[Sperm Edwards]

Just now, Embrace the Suck said:

So, when did M Maye become an elite safety? When has Maye ever shown himself to be worthy of a top 10 safety contract? He isn't young, he hasn't shown a consistently high level of production, he's an average to good strong safety who was over drafted like his former running mate. You don't start a negotiation by overbidding which you are by offering Maye a top ten safety contract. The cap is 182 million this year and it was 198 last year. Maye isn't worth 5%+ of your cap. Not when you have 22 starters to pay (24 if you count K/P), and many of them are far more important position wise than safety. Maye is a classic case of Jets fans overvaluing an average to good player that they like for various reasons (best player on poor team last year, not jamal adams, ect.). He's already apparently disowned the Jets on social media so no one should be getting butt hurt over this guy. He'll be 30 soon enough and those of you clamoring for him now won't miss him for long if some safety talent gets cut loose and he gets traded. They'll draft his replacement next year with a second or third day pick. 

The point is more that the incumbent team MVP was publicly promised a good faith extension negotiation, and it turns out it was a farce. It's one thing if that happens now & then; it's another if that's 100% been the pattern without exception, since the latter can induce future holdouts and such. Crying wolf and all that.

This above post misses the point of the discussion and further throws in straw-man arguments as though anyone has made the claim he's an elite safety or should be paid like one. No one has.

The top 10 safeties either already make (or some, like Adams & at least 2-3 others, are on the cusp of getting the same) in the $14-15MM range. I don't recall any complaints in this thread about the Jets not anteing up $14MM/yr for Maye (let alone more than that). 

Also he's not going to be 30 soon enough, in terms of age being a concern for the Jets. The day Maye turns 30 he would be well outside the time any and all guaranteed money has ended, so under no scenario would the team have been locked into him on his 30th birthday or beyond (not that there's some track record of safeties, who entered the league as older rookies, hitting a career wall instantly at age 30 like RBs or CBs in the first place). 

Turning 30 is solely an issue for Maye - not an issue for the Jets - because Maye may never fully reach free agency before then. 

As far as calling him "butt hurt" - and others have said worse - I'd say many here are pretty generous with other peoples' lost income. You can't seriously expect the player to like this, or even be satisfied with it. Since he can't and couldn't truly negotiate with other teams, and since the Jets aren't offering what would be his going rate, Maye's clearly losing millions off what'd be his one & only veteran contract of substance.