Why are we being so friggin impatient with Zach?

[jgb]

Just now, Hex said:

It's not a conspiracy. It is very clear the way LaFleur runs the first quarter with the other QBs very differently than Wilson. LaFleur's playcalling dramatically improved as the game went on, though.

I also put the target further away when I'm shooting a rifle versus a handgun.

[Hex]

Just now, jgb said:

I also put the target further away when I'm shooting a rifle versus a handgun.

My question is: Why doesn't LaFleur even try to run the same thing? He hasn't done the same thing, and you would think that in an experimental season he would try. 

[jgb]

1 minute ago, Hex said:

My question is: Why doesn't LaFleur even try to run the same thing? He hasn't done the same thing, and you would think that in an experimental season he would try. 

I don't know. Why didn't Kingsbury call as many QB draws when Colt McCoy was filling in for Kyler Murray?

[Hex]

Just now, jgb said:

I don't know. Why didn't Kingsbury call as many QB draws when Colt McCoy was filling in for Kyler Murray?

It isn't an experimentation year for them. They already know exactly what has worked and what hasn't, and that's why they're 9-2. The Jets haven't tried and tested different things to see how they work, and I think that might be a reason why things aren't starting out well when Zach is playing

[jgb]

1 minute ago, Hex said:

It isn't an experimentation year for them. They already know exactly what has worked and what hasn't, and that's why they're 9-2. The Jets haven't tried and tested different things to see how they work, and I think that might be a reason why things aren't starting out well when Zach is playing

Well, LaFleur has a lot more data about WIlson than we do. He obviously know how to call different types of games and has chosen to treat Zach differently. There's gotta be a reason.

It reminds me when many -- including myself -- used to absolutely DEMOLISH Schottenheimer for how he was calling games with Sanchez. I probably owe him an email apology. Pretty obvious now he was dealing with a mush brain lol.

[Hex]

Just now, jgb said:

Well, LaFleur has a lot more data about WIlson than we do. He obviously know how to call different types of games and has chosen to treat Zach differently. There's gotta be a reason.

It reminds me when many -- including myself -- used to absolutely DEMOLISH Schottenheimer for how he was calling games with Sanchez. I probably owe him an email. Pretty obvious now he was dealing with a mush brain lol.

That's a good point. I guess I just don't understand why he doesn't even try certain things that worked with other QBs. Maybe it's because it's already obvious that Zach doesn't do well with the plays that the other system is based around?

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, Hex said:

That's a good point. I guess I just don't understand why he doesn't even try certain things that worked with other QBs. Maybe it's because it's already obvious that Zach doesn't do well with the plays that the other system is based around?

The other possibility is he does call the same plays but Wilson is not a good processor (yet! don't buttfumble me!) and is just not executing.

Slow processor would be bad. Since that was the exact affliction of Sanchez/Geno/Darnold. That one stings. I'd almost rather a Jets QB fail due to heroin addiction.

[Snell41]

People keep saying this and it's just flat out wrong.
On the first drive of the game, they opened with a throw.  They ended up throwing it on first down twice and ran it on first down once and kicked a FG.
On the second drive, they opened with a run but then threw it twice resulting in Zach Wilson bouncing a ball off Johnson's back for an INT.
Next drive, they still trust him enough to go, run, pass, pass.  
On their 4th possession of the game, they did the dreadful!!! run, run, pass.  That is clearly killing Zach Wilson.  lol
Oh and then, on their 5th possession.  They went, pass, pass, pass, pass, run, pass, pass, pass.  lmfao before they ran it twice with Walter for the score.
So, for those counting, that 6 pass attempts on first down vs. 5 run attempts on first down during the first half of the game And only once during those 5 possessions did Lil Mikey call the dreadful run, run, pass.  Once.  1 time.  
lmfao
Lets stop with this narrative.  It's false and Lil Mikey isnt trying to sabotage his own job security and reputation by setting up Zach Wilson to fail.  It's a ridiculous take and it's well, as I clearly displayed above, flat out wrong. 
 

Thank you! Given what I’ve seen the offense do with QB’s like White,Flacco, and Johnson, I think we have a very gifted and smart young OC. Zach’s troubles are because Zach isn’t good, not because of some ridiculous notion that LaFleur is sabotaging or letting him down.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[Hex]

8 minutes ago, jgb said:

The other possibility is he does call the same plays but Wilson is not a good processor (yet! don't buttfumble me!) and is just not executing.

Slow processor would be bad. Since that was the exact affliction of Sanchez/Geno/Darnold. That one stings. I'd almost rather a Jets QB fail due to heroin addiction.

I'm pretty sure the decisions on which plays to pass on or rush on are being called differently, unless it's been a bunch of option plays that Zach decides, which in that case would be even worse on a developing QB

[Snell41]

The other possibility is he does call the same plays but Wilson is not a good processor (yet! don't buttfumble me!) and is just not executing.
Slow processor would be bad. Since that was the exact affliction of Sanchez/Geno/Darnold. That one stings. I'd almost rather a Jets QB fail due to heroin addiction.

He’s an EXTREMELY slow processor. Anyone who removes their bias and desperation that he is the savior we’ve always wanted can see that. He was not a very good QB going into his final BYU season. His prior 2 seasons he was a 50/50 TD to INT ratio with a good comp percentage that boosted his QB rating, but he had to earn his job going into 2020. In 2020 the light bulb seemed to go off for him to finally dominate 2nd rate college opponents but this is like learning to drive a Camry and now being asked to race a Bugatti. He’s an old school prospect that needed a year, probably two, sitting in the bench and learning. The problem is given the current salary structure teams like us don’t have the luxury of doing that. He is in way over his head and he’s not understanding what’s going on around him at all. My question is how much time do our scouts spend with QB prospects actually drilling them about defenses and offensive play calls vs watching them throw balls in shorts


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, Hex said:

I'm pretty sure the decisions on which plays to pass on or rush on are being called differently, unless it's been a bunch of option plays that Zach decides, which in that case would be even worse on a developing QB

@JiFapono has debunked this with data.

[Hex]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

@JiFapono has debunked this with data.

Ok, cool. That explains a lot

[jgb]

4 minutes ago, Snell41 said:

 

He’s an EXTREMELY slow processor. Anyone who removes their bias and desperation that he is the savior we’ve always wanted can see that. He was not a very good QB going into his final BYU season. His prior 2 seasons he was a 50/50 TD to INT ratio with a good comp percentage that boosted his QB rating, but he had to earn his job going into 2020. In 2020 the light bulb seemed to go off for him to finally dominate 2nd rate college opponents but this is like learning to drive a Camry and now being asked to race a Bugatti. He’s an old school prospect that needed a year, probably two, sitting in the bench and learning. The problem is given the current salary structure teams like us don’t have the luxury of doing that. He is in way over his head and he’s not understanding what’s going on around him at all. My question is how much time do our scouts spend with QB prospects actually drilling them about defenses and offensive play calls vs watching them throw balls in shorts


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

 

That's what I'm afraid of. 

[jgb]

Just now, Hex said:

Ok, cool. That explains a lot

Whether sarcastic or sincere, this post deserves the up-vote 

[Hex]

Just now, jgb said:

Whether sarcastic or sincere, this post deserves the up-vote 

Now that I think about it, I can't remember whether or not it was sarcastic or sincere

[Barry McCockinner]

holy crap - people are really still saying LaFleur is just not calling the good plays when Wilson is at QB? I thought the booth was the difference?

[Flea Flicking Frank]

43 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I agree with Frank. LaFleur clearly waits until Zach is out of the game before he dips into the folder labeled “Good plays that work.” 

Come on TomShane, you know its not that simple. Its not about good plays vs bad plays, but there is a flow to a calling a good game, and not setting up a predictable offense and keeping the defense guessing. All offenses largely have the same plays in their books these days with some nuances. Again, none of this is a defense of Wilson just so I don't piss anyone off, hes been bad, but I do think Lafluer has done a bad job to date

[Flea Flicking Frank]

13 minutes ago, jgb said:

@JiFapono has debunked this with data.

lol, jbp, Im out, have other things to do, jgb 5 min later, im back bitches!

lol, jgb, Im a data guy, Jifapano shows data on 5 drives, jgb, see, case and point, im a data guy.....

 

 

[FTL Jet Fan]

1 hour ago, JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF said:

Give him more time.  He’s only played 6 games.  If you could just throw out his 1st quarters in every game (of course you can’t), you realize how he gets his act together as the game progresses.

I have a feeling that if he solves his 1st quarter problem you’re going to see some monster games out of him, just based on the upping of his confidence level.

That’s what he needs a confidence boost and more games under his belt. He has got his ass kicked, got hurt, got booed, etc. It’s not easy on some of these kids and as a Jets fan I hope he can put it together as he has the talent. The kid needs more games under his belt and hopefully after his rookie year his play gets better after every game. I just hope he can keep it together mentally as that is a large percentage of why some QB’s fail. NY is no easy task as it is.

[Flea Flicking Frank]

10 minutes ago, FTL Jet Fan said:

That’s what he needs a confidence boost and more games under his belt. He has got his ass kicked, got hurt, got booed, etc. It’s not easy on some of these kids and as a Jets fan I hope he can put it together as he has the talent. The kid needs more games under his belt and hopefully after his rookie year his play gets better after every game. I just hope he can keep it together mentally as that is a large percentage of why some QB’s fail. NY is no easy task as it is.

wait? you mean these guys aren't robots who either just play good or play bad, and thats the end of story?

[jgb]

44 minutes ago, Hex said:

Now that I think about it, I can't remember whether or not it was sarcastic or sincere

Have another upvote for commendable insouciance.

[jgb]

19 minutes ago, FTL Jet Fan said:

That’s what he needs a confidence boost and more games under his belt. He has got his ass kicked, got hurt, got booed, etc. It’s not easy on some of these kids and as a Jets fan I hope he can put it together as he has the talent. The kid needs more games under his belt and hopefully after his rookie year his play gets better after every game. I just hope he can keep it together mentally as that is a large percentage of why some QB’s fail. NY is no easy task as it is.

One thing I believe all agree to -- Zach needs to start as many games as possible. I don't care if Jebediah Flacco gives us a better chance to win.

[kevinc855]

The more I think about this the more I think "are we really being impatient" I mean, sure he's a rookie but it is week 13, and injury or no injury there is no progress. 

It reminds of Sam, when every 6-7 throws be a dart and we all be like "see!!, give him time" and overlook the next 6 bad plays. 

For the number 2 pick that JD fell in love with I expected more of a Joe Burrow rookie year I guess. Loses with competent QB play. Instead I'm getting loses and bad QB play. 

Moreover, his demeanor on the sidelines is not good. Looks shaken, confused and at times frustrated, which I get. 

6 more games to prove people wrong. No one is rooting more for Zach then me to turn out ok, because whiffing on this pick could **** the entire rebuild plan. 

[jgb]

5 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

The more I think about this the more I think "are we really being impatient" I mean, sure he's a rookie but it is week 13, and injury or no injury there is no progress. 

It reminds of Sam, when every 6-7 throws be a dart and we all be like "see!!, give him time" and overlook the next 6 bad plays. 

For the number 2 pick that JD fell in love with I expected more of a Joe Burrow rookie year I guess. Loses with competent QB play. Instead I'm getting loses and bad QB play. 

Moreover, his demeanor on the sidelines is not good. Looks shaken, confused and at times frustrated, which I get. 

6 more games to prove people wrong. No one is rooting more for Zach then me to turn out ok, because whiffing on this pick could **** the entire rebuild plan. 

My new position is that a true "flash" is when a QB takes over a game and shows out as the best player on the field. Individual throws, no matter how amazing, don't do it for me.

 

[T0mShane]

49 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Come on TomShane, you know its not that simple. Its not about good plays vs bad plays, but there is a flow to a calling a good game, and not setting up a predictable offense and keeping the defense guessing. All offenses largely have the same plays in their books these days with some nuances. Again, none of this is a defense of Wilson just so I don't piss anyone off, hes been bad, but I do think Lafluer has done a bad job to date

My belief is that LaFleur probably has about twelve plays that he feels like Zach can execute with any confidence and he just kinda rolls with those. When you take into account that Zach isn’t completing a high percentage of throws on those few plays that LaFleur runs for him, it all looks like a mess. Then you add in Zach’s poor feel for the pocket, his constant need to escape from that pocket, and how that ruins the timing of plays, and how that likely annoys and demotivates his teammates, and things get worse from there.

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

My belief is that LaFleur probably has about twelve plays that he feels like Zach can execute with any confidence and he just kinda rolls with those. When you take into account that Zach isn’t completing a high percentage of throws on those few plays that LaFleur runs for him, it all looks like a mess. Then you add in Zach’s poor feel for the pocket, his constant need to escape from that pocket, and how that ruins the timing of plays, and how that likely annoys and demotivates his teammates, and things get worse from there.

Brian Schottenheimer, the most maligned Jets OC in the last 20 years, led Seattle to the 8th best offense in points per game in 2020. Amazing what a competent QB can do for an OC.

[JustInFudge]

1 hour ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Yeah, except Im not wrong, my point was more about a predictable offense that the defense knows is coming. The fact that you proved it wrong on a few drives out of the whole season really does not change what I have seen the entire season, and the math Im not doing is on the season for which Zach was in, if you want to go through that and prove me wrong, have had it. 

Wilsons lone strength at this point seems to be a strong arm, yet "lil mikey" insists on keeping the ball within the box, if you think that "lil mikey" is doing a good job, you are entitled, I don't

Well, the point of me showing you the first half of the Houston game was that Lil Mikey did what you were asking for and Zach, was still, not good.  He was not predictable.  He was running all sorts of different looks including RPO's, rollouts, screens, etc.  And I've also done this before in another thread for another game and proved this run, run, pass (something you accused him of as well) wrong but I'm not going to go there.  

Overall, I think your narrative that Lil Mikey is intentionally sabotaging or somehow forgets how to call the good plays within the flow of the game when Zach is in the game is completely and utterly bogus.  Wilson just sucks.  And that's ok until it's not but Mike White, Joe Flacco (stronger arm than Wilson) and Josh Johnson showed you what this offense can do.

Why would Lil Mikey want Zach to fail?  Do you think that is good for job security and reflects well on his resume? 

[T0mShane]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

Brian Schottenheimer, the most maligned Jets OC in the last 20 years, led Seattle to the 8th best offense in points per game in 2020. Amazing what a competent QB can do for an OC.

Currently working his magic on Trevor Lawrence, as it were.

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Currently working his magic on Trevor Lawrence, as it were.

Schottenheimer just needs to be surrounded with a HOF QB. Unfair to judge him in other circumstances.

[varjet]

Darnold for the most part would look the part, had some very good games, but then would make mind-bendingly stupid decisions  and throw interceptions, etc.  He was connecting on short-passes though.

What I believe has people worked up about Wilson is that he can't even complete a short pass.  His passes generally are inaccurate.  Its not like he is making bad decisions-defenses leave the underneath open and cover the deep ball, because he can actually throw that.  But Wilson can't take advantage of short/intermediate because he cannot connect on those passes.

Here is a brief statistical summary of Wilson and Darnold (2018).  Wilson has 6 more games to play to bring up his numbers (like Darnold did).   But at this point Wilson is having a statistically worse first year than Darnold did. 

Wilson:

ear	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	QBrec	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	TD%	Int	Int%	1D	Lng	Y/A	AY/A	Y/C	Y/G	Rate	QBR	Sk	Yds	Sk%	NY/A	ANY/A	4QC	GWD	AV
2021	22	NYJ	qb	2	7	7	2-5-0	118	205	57.6	1313	4	2.0	10	4.9	56	54	6.4	4.6	11.1	187.6	62.9	23.5	23	196	10.1	4.90	3.28	1

Darnold:

ear	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	QBrec	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	TD%	Int	Int%	1D	Lng	Y/A	AY/A	Y/C	Y/G	Rate	QBR	Sk	Yds	Sk%	NY/A	ANY/A	4QC	GWD	AV
2018	21	NYJ	QB	14	13	13	4-9-0	239	414	57.7	2865	17	4.1	15	3.6	130	76	6.9	6.1	12.0	220.4	77.6	45.9	30	204	6.8	5.99	5.24	1	1

[jgb]

35 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

Well, the point of me showing you the first half of the Houston game was that Lil Mikey did what you were asking for and Zach, was still, not good.  He was not predictable.  He was running all sorts of different looks including RPO's, rollouts, screens, etc.  And I've also done this before in another thread for another game and proved this run, run, pass (something you accused him of as well) wrong but I'm not going to go there.  

Overall, I think your narrative that Lil Mikey is intentionally sabotaging or somehow forgets how to call the good plays within the flow of the game when Zach is in the game is completely and utterly bogus.  Wilson just sucks.  And that's ok until it's not but Mike White, Joe Flacco (stronger arm than Wilson) and Josh Johnson showed you what this offense can do.

Why would Lil Mikey want Zach to fail?  Do you think that is good for job security and reflects well on his resume? 

Because in the QB defense wagon circle, everyone else has to suck.

[Snell41]

Come on TomShane, you know its not that simple. Its not about good plays vs bad plays, but there is a flow to a calling a good game, and not setting up a predictable offense and keeping the defense guessing. All offenses largely have the same plays in their books these days with some nuances. Again, none of this is a defense of Wilson just so I don't piss anyone off, hes been bad, but I do think Lafluer has done a bad job to date

Dude stop, just stop. LaFleur has been outstanding. Everything looks pretty damn good until Zach steps in, period.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[jgb]

1 minute ago, Snell41 said:

 

Dude stop, just stop. LaFleur has been outstanding. Everything looks pretty damn good until Zach steps in, period.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

 

Real Fans™ believe in the QB and think everyone else associated with the team sucks.

[Waka Flocka Flacco]

2 hours ago, jgb said:

It reminds me when many -- including myself -- used to absolutely DEMOLISH Schottenheimer for how he was calling games with Sanchez. I probably owe him an email apology.

Trust me on this one, guys. My feelings have gotten way smarter, I promise.

[jgb]

1 minute ago, Waka Flocka Flacco said:

Trust me on this one, guys. My feelings have gotten way smarter, I promise.

The only smart feelings are no feelings.