Why are we being so friggin impatient with Zach?

[Flea Flicking Frank]

Just now, jgb said:

I have done none of the things you suggest. Or do you mean the royal "you?"

Uh, when you make 4,537,235,234 posts saying how awful Zach is, you are saying it. 

[slimjasi]

4 minutes ago, Biggs said:

It's a good point until you consider the sunk cost.  Mike White cost as almost nothing.  Flacco was a wasted move although getting covid and probably infecting White did get Zach back in the lineup. 

Zach could cost us a lot in terms of sunk cost and future cost if we don't either develop him or dump him fast enough. 

I've seen this in a couple of places now. 

I think it's important to be clear that Joe Flacco never tested positive for COVID. Mike White did. Joe Flacco was only out for a week because he was deemed to be a close contact. 

[Snell41]

The trade that was there for the taking was 3 first round picks and Garoppolo for the 2nd overall.  

Are you implying SF offered us Garrapollo and 3 1st round picks for the 2 overall and we turned it down? If that’s true Douglas should be fired on the spot, but I find that very hard to believe.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[jgb]

1 minute ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Uh, when you make 4,537,235,234 posts saying how awful Zach is, you are saying it. 

Talk about selective comprehension lol.

[Flea Flicking Frank]

3 minutes ago, jgb said:

Talk about selective comprehension lol.

Yeah, no.

[UntouchableCrew]

It's pretty simple -- rookie QBs who play this poorly rarely pan out.

Seems like a good kid and I'm for sure rooting for him. I genuinely believe 95% of the posters who are "trashing" him would be beyond thrilled if he went out on Sunday and carved up the Eagles and looked like a stud.

But...

1) He's essentially played one game all season where he legit looked good and the story of that game was him freelancing and making his own plays outside the pocket.

2) Beyond poor statistical performances he has looked inaccurate in ways that are deeply concerning.

3) It can't be overstated how night an day the offense has looked with the backups in. It's difficult to deny that has-beens like Flacco or never was types like White and Johnson have run this offense better and given us a glimpse of what it's supposed to look like.

4) Unlike with Darnold where the talent level was highly questionable in 2018 I really don't think the overall talent level on this offense is that bad, which again, we've seen play out when White/Johnson/Flacco have been in.

[jgb]

5 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Yeah, no.

OK, my turn.

Me:

• Wilson has thus far played like crap (worst rated QB in the NFL)
• But it's early so I still have hope
• He needs to play every game and not waste time on White/Johnson/Flacco even if they give us a "better chance to win" in individual games
• However, I am skeptical of Wilson because QBs rebounding from such poor starts are extremely rare thus I want JD to bring in a legit QB2 should Zach face plant next season
• I wanted Mac Jones but Zach's here now so I hope he succeeds

You:

"SKREEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

It's pretty simple -- rookie QBs who play this poorly rarely pan out.

Prepare for "But Josh Allen!!!"

[Flea Flicking Frank]

Just now, jgb said:

OK, my turn.

Me:

• Wilson has thus far played like crap (worst rated QB in the NFL)
• But it's early so I still have hope
• He needs to play every game and not waste time on Wilson/Johnson/Flacco even if they give us a "better chance to win" in individual games
• However, I am skeptical of Wilson and I want JD to bring in a legit QB2 should Zach face plant next season
• I wanted Mac Jones but Zach's here now so I hope he succeeds

You:

"SKREEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

lol, you used to be a great poster, not sure what happened, now you are just full on troll

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

lol, you used to be a great poster, not sure what happened, now you are just full on troll

And then the pivot to the ad hominem. 

Spoiler alert: next comes reductio ad absurdum.

Am I right?

[Jetluv58]

1 hour ago, The Crusher said:

I vote Flacco time. Was fun watching him run the offense. Zach needs the reps  obviously but also needs to heal up. Little tender still. 

Bring back Laveon and we’ll have Flacco Bell! 

[jgb]

Just now, Jetluv58 said:

Bring back Laveon and we’ll have Flacco Bell! 

And we'll all have diarrhea. Good analogy.

[slimjasi]

5 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

It's pretty simple -- rookie QBs who play this poorly rarely pan out.

Seems like a good kid and I'm for sure rooting for him. I genuinely believe 95% of the posters who are "trashing" him would be beyond thrilled if he went out on Sunday and carved up the Eagles and looked like a stud.

But...

1) He's essentially played one game all season where he legit looked good and the story of that game was him freelancing and making his own plays outside the pocket.

2) Beyond poor statistical performances he has looked inaccurate in ways that are deeply concerning.

3) It can't be overstated how night an day the offense has looked with the backups in. It's difficult to deny that has-beens like Flacco or never was types like White and Johnson have run this offense better and given us a glimpse of what it's supposed to look like.

4) Unlike with Darnold where the talent level was highly questionable in 2018 I really don't think the overall talent level on this offense is that bad, which again, we've seen play out when White/Johnson/Flacco have been in.

Wilson has generally been terrible, but the point about the offense rolling without him is highly exaggerated. 

In the three games before Wilson returned, we scored 17 points against the Dolphins (loss), 17 points against the bills (blowout loss), and were down 42-10 before the Josh Johnson show in mop up duty against a team that was running out the clock in the 3rd quarter (loss). The one brilliant offensive performance was the Bengals game, which as we have discussed ad nauseam by now, wasn't sustainable. 

We generally moved the ball well between the 20s without Wilson, but the scoring wasn't anything to write home about

[Jetluv58]

We did win last week. Just saying. 

[FTL Jet Fan]

20 minutes ago, jgb said:

OK, my turn.

Me:

• Wilson has thus far played like crap (worst rated QB in the NFL)
• But it's early so I still have hope
• He needs to play every game and not waste time on White/Johnson/Flacco even if they give us a "better chance to win" in individual games
• However, I am skeptical of Wilson because QBs rebounding from such poor starts are extremely rare thus I want JD to bring in a legit QB2 should Zach face plant next season
• I wanted Mac Jones but Zach's here now so I hope he succeeds

You:

"SKREEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

As much as I disagreed with you on some topics concerning Wilson I think this just about spot on. 

 

 

 

[UntouchableCrew]

25 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Wilson has generally been terrible, but the point about the offense rolling without him is highly exaggerated. 

In the three games before Wilson returned, we scored 17 points against the Dolphins (loss), 17 points against the bills (blowout loss), and were down 42-10 before the Josh Johnson show in mop up duty against a team that was running out the clock in the 3rd quarter (loss). The one brilliant offensive performance was the Bengals game, which as we have discussed ad nauseam by now, wasn't sustainable. 

We generally moved the ball well between the 20s without Wilson, but the scoring wasn't anything to write home about

Well yeah. The argument isn't that "with Joe Flacco we'd be good." Nobody thinks Joe Flacco is good. The argument is that Joe Flacco made us look like a competent NFL offense against the Dolphins. We outgained them in yards per play, missed two field goals and lost a one score game to a mediocre to bad team. It doesn't seem like Wilson can even do that, at least with any consistency. He can't really even run a conservative checkdown offense because he isn't making the routine throws.

With Wilson we have often looked like a team that cannot move the ball at all. All three of the other QBs are completing 64% or more of their passes for 7.2 or more YPA. Those are like, baseline standard numbers for NFL QBs. Wilson isn't close.

In four of Wilson's six games where he started and finished the game he has been below 20 in total QBR. You have basically zero chance of winning with a QB performance like that.

You're right that the discrepancy in the stats (led the NFL in yards per game without him) is misleading. I don't think the offense has actually been "good" without him. But I fully maintain that it has looked competent and has removed any illusion of "weaponz" or OL being the primary culprit. The primary culprit is Zach Wilson.

[The Crusher]

23 minutes ago, Jetluv58 said:

Bring back Laveon and we’ll have Flacco Bell! 

Dayum, you have made it to my list of people I admire here. 

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Well yeah. The argument isn't that "with Joe Flacco we'd be good." Nobody thinks Joe Flacco is good. The argument is that Joe Flacco made us look like a competent NFL offense against the Dolphins. We outgained them in yards per play, missed two field goals and lost a one score game to a mediocre to bad team. It doesn't seem like Wilson can even do that, at least with any consistency. He can't really even run a conservative checkdown offense because he isn't making the routine throws.

With Wilson we have often looked like a team that cannot move the ball at all. All three of the other QBs are completing 64% or more of their passes for 7.2 or more YPA. Those are like, baseline standard numbers for NFL QBs. Wilson isn't close.

In four of Wilson's six games where he started and finished the game he has been below 20 in total QBR. You have basically zero chance of winning with a QB performance like that.

You're right that the discrepancy in the stats (led the NFL in yards per game without him) is misleading. I don't think the offense has actually been "good" with him. But I fully maintain that it has looked competent and has removed any illusion of "weaponz" or OL being the primary culprit. The primary culprit is Zach Wilson.

Exile Island is going to be full but remember @Jetsfan80 and I were here first and the hammocks and grass hut are for Founders only.

[jgb]

8 minutes ago, FTL Jet Fan said:

As much as I disagreed with you on some topics concerning Wilson I think this just about spot on. 

 

 

 

I mean look, every post I make about Zach doesn't contain the totality of my complete beliefs and observations on him. Sometimes I may write "Man, he stinks" without qualifying and clarifying it with the full perspective. But a huge percentage of those posts have mentioned how I (a) have hope (b) don't want him benched (c) want him back next year.

But I get it if someone who isn't on the board much gets the wrong impression about my views. Frank only has 500 posts so that's probably what happened. 

[Jetsfan80]

34 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Wilson has generally been terrible, but the point about the offense rolling without him is highly exaggerated. 

In the three games before Wilson returned, we scored 17 points against the Dolphins (loss), 17 points against the bills (blowout loss), and were down 42-10 before the Josh Johnson show in mop up duty against a team that was running out the clock in the 3rd quarter (loss). The one brilliant offensive performance was the Bengals game, which as we have discussed ad nauseam by now, wasn't sustainable. 

We generally moved the ball well between the 20s without Wilson, but the scoring wasn't anything to write home about

 

If Wilson had performed well in "garbage time", you'd have a point here.  Josh Johnson throwing for 317 and 3 TDs off the bench is still a datapoint whether you want to dismiss it or not.  We'd all love to see Wilson put up numbers, even in a blowout loss where he is trying to "make it a game" late.

[slimjasi]

4 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Well yeah. The argument isn't that "with Joe Flacco we'd be good." Nobody thinks Joe Flacco is good. The argument is that Joe Flacco made us look like a competent NFL offense against the Dolphins. We outgained them in yards per play, missed two field goals and lost a one score game to a mediocre to bad team. It doesn't seem like Wilson can even do that, at least with any consistency. He can't really even run a conservative checkdown offense because he isn't making the routine throws.

Wilson just beat a bad team. He started the game as terribly as a QB could possibly start a game, but settled down and led two straight touchdown drives that changed the complexion of that game. He also threw a beautiful pass to the TE in the back of the endzone that was dropped. His short range accuracy has to be fixed during the offseason or he won't be here past next year - we agree there. 

His performance play to play is no where near good enough, but there might be more light at the end of the tunnel than people think. He plays better in the second half of games and has exhibited a lot of toughness, bouncing back from some huge hits and poor first half performances this season.  

[Jetsfan80]

31 minutes ago, Jetluv58 said:

We did win last week. Just saying. 

You keep holding onto that like it means a lot, buddy!

[jgb]

1 minute ago, slimjasi said:

Wilson just beat a bad team. He started the game as terribly as a QB could possibly start a game, but settled down and led two straight touchdown drives that changed the complexion of that game. He also threw a beautiful pass to the TE in the back of the endzone that was dropped. His short range accuracy has to be fixed during the offseason or he won't be here past next year - we agree there. 

His performance play to play is no where near good enough, but there might be more light at the end of the tunnel than people think. He plays better in the second half of games and has exhibited a lot of toughness, bouncing back from some huge hits and poor first half performances this season.  

If only there was an available dataset from thousands of QB-seasons that we could use to draw some objective conclusions as to how likely Zach is to become a franchise QB given his start as the worst-rated QB in the NFL.

[UntouchableCrew]

3 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Wilson just beat a bad team. He started the game as terribly as a QB could possibly start a game, but settled down and led two straight touchdown drives that changed the complexion of that game. He also threw a beautiful pass to the TE in the back of the endzone that was dropped. His short range accuracy has to be fixed during the offseason or he won't be here past next year - we agree there. 

His performance play to play is no where near good enough, but there might be more light at the end of the tunnel than people think. He plays better in the second half of games and has exhibited a lot of toughness, bouncing back from some huge hits and poor first half performances this season.  

I hope you're right...

I would argue we beat the least talented team in the NFL in a game where the running game was gashing them, the defense had a second half shutout and Wilson struggled mightily... I walked out of Sunday less confident, not more confident.

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

You keep holding onto that like it means a lot, buddy!

Remember when Mike White beat the then-#1 seed in the AFC? Yeah, neither do they.

[Jetsfan80]

3 hours ago, T0mShane said:

I think IR’ing Zach would do a lot more for Douglas’ short-term prospects than trotting Zach out there every week does at this point.

But how will Zach ever shake off the rust???

[Jetsfan80]

4 hours ago, jgb said:

Welcome to JN. Keep this up and you may replace @Jetsfan80 on the top of my bromance list.

YOU WHORE

[jgb]

9 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

If Wilson had performed well in "garbage time", you'd have a point here.  Josh Johnson throwing for 317 and 3 TDs off the bench is still a datapoint whether you want to dismiss it or not.  We'd all love to see Wilson put up numbers, even in a blowout loss where he is trying to "make it a game" late.

"Yeah but in Zach's games garbage time is 2 and a half quarters long. You can't really expect him to sustain for that long."

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

YOU WHORE

No, he's not paying me.

[slimjasi]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

If Wilson had performed well in "garbage time", you'd have a point here.  Josh Johnson throwing for 317 and 3 TDs off the bench is still a datapoint whether you want to dismiss it or not.  We'd all love to see Wilson put up numbers, even in a blowout loss where he "makes it a game" late.

So this is very interesting to me, because I would argue that Wilson has "made it a game" several times this season, already:

1) Opening week in Carolina he engineered several scoring drives to bring us back from 16-0 and get us within an onside kick of making things interesting. 

2) Drove the field to get us within 3 points against the Falcons in the 4th quarter in London, only to watch the defense let Matt Ryan walk right down the field and ice the game. 

3) Brough us back from 9-0 against the Titans and won us the game in the second half. 

4) Brought us back from 14-3 in the Texans game and we ended up winning the game in the second half. 

One of the only silver linings about Wilson so far is that he's generally performed better as the games have gone on. On the flipside, he's been the worst first quarter QB I have ever seen. 

As for passing numbers in blowout losses, I'm just very skeptical of them in general. Nothing to do with Wilson or any of the Jets QBs, really. 

[slimjasi]

6 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I hope you're right...

I would argue we beat the least talented team in the NFL in a game where the running game was gashing them, the defense had a second half shutout and Wilson struggled mightily... I walked out of Sunday less confident, not more confident.

I walked out less confident about Wilson, but more confident about the direction of the team

[slimjasi]

7 minutes ago, jgb said:

Remember when Mike White beat the then-#1 seed in the AFC? Yeah, neither do they.

Tbh, Mike White got screwed by his lack of durability. 

If he never got hurt in the Indy game, he'd probably still be starting. Getting hurt in 3 straight starts is something I have never seen before from an NFL QB and is just typical Jets luck. 

[Jetsfan80]

5 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

So this is very interesting to me, because I would argue that Wilson has "made it a game" several times this season, already:

1) Opening week in Carolina he engineered several scoring drives to bring us back from 16-0 and get us within an onside kick of making things interesting. 

2) Drove the field to get us within 3 points against the Falcons in the 4th quarter in London, only to watch the defense let Matt Ryan walk right down the field and ice the game. 

3) Brough us back from 9-0 against the Titans and won us the game in the second half. 

4) Brought us back from 14-3 in the Texans game and we ended up winning the game in the second half. 

One of the only silver linings about Wilson so far is that he's generally performed better as the games have gone on. On the flipside, he's been the worst first quarter QB I have ever seen. 

As for passing numbers in blowout losses, I'm just very skeptical of them in general. Nothing to do with Wilson or any of the Jets QBs, really. 

 

I'll give him credit for the Carolina game, where he played well in his debut, and the Tennessee game, which is of course his best performance to date.  The "comebacks" in other games were no better performances, and probably worse, than a replacement level QB would have accomplished.  He wasn't really the biggest reason we came back in those games.  And he was certainly the biggest reason we fell behind in the first place.  

If you're going to credit Wilson for coming back against Atlanta and Houston, when he still didn't really do a whole lot in those games (he still finished those games with under 200 yards and 0 passing TDs, and a QB rating under 65 - plus both teams are terrible), you have to give credit to Josh Johnson too, who unlike Zach actually put up big numbers in that Indy game.  Simple as that.  

[JoeDouglasFart]

1 hour ago, UntouchableCrew said:

4) Unlike with Darnold where the talent level was highly questionable in 2018 I really don't think the overall talent level on this offense is that bad, which again, we've seen play out when White/Johnson/Flacco have been in.

Elijah Moore. 

[Butterfield]

1 hour ago, Snell41 said:

 

Are you implying SF offered us Garrapollo and 3 1st round picks for the 2 overall and we turned it down? If that’s true Douglas should be fired on the spot, but I find that very hard to believe.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

 

No, just think it would be reasonable considering what SF offered for the 3rd pick.  Maybe the jets have to throw in a player or picks to sweeten the pot but that trade or something similar would have been reasonable.

That being said, history is done with and I would like to give Wilson a chance now that he is with the Jets.  

[UntouchableCrew]

14 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

1) Opening week in Carolina he engineered several scoring drives to bring us back from 16-0 and get us within an onside kick of making things interesting. 

Honestly, I think this was his second best game after the Titans game. In this game in particular it did feel like the o-line was getting throttled and we had no running game to speak of. Zach played well in the second half of this game and took some big shots.

Quote

One of the only silver linings about Wilson so far is that he's generally performed better as the games have gone on. On the flipside, he's been the worst first quarter QB I have ever seen. 

Overall I agree with this. For all the chatter about him being fragile or mentally weak he's been fairly resilient and has improved as games have gone on.

That said, it would be hard not to. As you alluded to his first quarter stats must just be historically terrible. Like, completing as many passes to the other team as his own receivers terrible.