Quadruple Down on OL

[Integrity28]

1 minute ago, CanadaSteve said:

It is very unlikely we are drafting OL in the first four picks. 

Based on what?

[68JET11]

Like I've said in the past... Having a OL that consists of first rounders now is not a problem. We need to have a young OL that grows with our young QB. To keep them all together for 3-5 years is the key at this stage of the rebuild. If we can do that, than we can use middle rounders to help keep the line replenished in the future.

[CanadaSteve]

10 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

Based on what?

A first round pick in Becton and a first round pick in AVT.  That would be a lot of first round resources in a short period of time.

That said, If you can't get a trade partner four the #4 pick, and you have Charles Cross sitting there who can play both LT/RT, it might be hard to pass him up, knowing that you will still get a decent edge rusher at #10.

[Integrity28]

14 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

A first round pick in Becton and a first round pick in AVT.  That would be a lot of first round resources in a short period of time.

That said, If you can't get a trade partner four the #4 pick, and you have Charles Cross sitting there who can play both LT/RT, it might be hard to pass him up, knowing that you will still get a decent edge rusher at #10.

Google: gamblers fallacy.

[CanadaSteve]

33 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

Google: gamblers fallacy.

It's called allocation of cap resources.  

Google: Sperm Edwards. 

[CanadaSteve]

Just now, CanadaSteve said:

 

 

[Integrity28]

19 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

It's called allocation of cap resources.  

Google: Sperm Edwards. 

The way you posited your thinking is entirely dependent upon a logical fallacy. Don’t blame that dude @Sperm Edwards.

[CanadaSteve]

18 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

The way you posited your thinking is entirely dependent upon a logical fallacy. Don’t blame that dude @Sperm Edwards.

So much for humor.

Cool that we are throwing around first year philosophy terms.  AWESOME!  

That said, it has been discussed ad nauseam about cap allocation space and investing too many first rounders in one position.  Notice I did say that if Charles Cross is sitting there at #4, I am not sure how you could pass him up, given his ability to flip between both positions and the flexibility that allows.  If we don't trade out of #4, I am thinking drafting Cross and putting Becton on notice might not be a bad thing to do, even though it goes against the idea of three high picks in three years on O-line. 

[slats]

They’re working on an extension for Fant, allegedly. I imagine it’ll be LT money. They already drafted a tackle at #11, who they would now be looking to move to the right side. I just simply cannot fathom drafting another top ten OL who doesn’t play LT. The third OL in the first round in three years. I understand that it’s possible that an OT could potentially be the BAP at one of those picks, but I hate the idea of drafting another one this soon. 
 
Really want to see Moses and/or LDT (or any RG upgrade) signed, and being satisfied at OL for the first couple rounds this year. Don’t even talk to me about drafting a 290 lb. center that high, please. 

[Dunnie]

So you admit that you’re a knee-jerk reactionary? 
 
What about the entire WR corps that was also out or bad? Or the non-existent TEs or pass rush? 
 
The OL was playing very well for a good stretch, then got hit by injuries. It happens. It’s not something you overreact to. They need to shore the line up, but there’s no need for triage. They have much bigger needs. 

Totally agree that my knee jerked into my face ... but a sieve of an OL is frustrating as all hell when you have a young QB that is trying to develop.

[TuscanyTile2]

On 1/10/2022 at 9:20 AM, More Cowbell said:

I don't  see how anyone who watched this defense play all season wants to draft anything that is not a LB or edge. Our run D was swiss cheese and we have no pass rush. Allen was sitting in the pocket with all the time in the world yesterday.  Fix the D and your O won't  have to score every time they get the ball. We went OL in the first round twice with JD. We need to start looking elsewhere. 

I completely understand this point but the only reason I'd argue against it is that Buffalo had the #1 D in the NFL and still got shredded by KC.  The league is all about O these days.  That said, if Hutch or Thibs were to fall to us at #4, I'd take either one.  And tbh, I wouldn't hate it if we took a LB at #10 either.  But I'd also be okay with a great OL at #4 (e.g. Ekwonu) and maybe a WR at #10 along with a TE in the 2nd round.

I guess I'm arguing both sides of this coin here (no surprise since we need so much) but I'm just making the argument that a reasonable person could've watched our awful D last year and still want us to draft O.  

[slats]

51 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

Totally agree that my knee jerked into my face ... but a sieve of an OL is frustrating as all hell when you have a young QB that is trying to develop.

The OL of Fant-AVT-McGovern-LDT-Moses was operating at a top 10 level. That’s a fine OL. Bring back Moses, and LDT (or an upgrade), put Becton on the right side, and your OL is good to go. They struggled early in the year learning the zone scheme, and that should’ve been expected. They don’t need to spend another high pick on the unit. They just don’t. 

[TuscanyTile2]

1 hour ago, slats said:

The OL of Fant-AVT-McGovern-LDT-Moses was operating at a top 10 level. That’s a fine OL. Bring back Moses, and LDT (or an upgrade), put Becton on the right side, and your OL is good to go. They struggled early in the year learning the zone scheme, and that should’ve been expected. They don’t need to spend another high pick on the unit. They just don’t. 

Just #4 and #10 overall.  After that, we can help out other areas. 

[More Cowbell]

2 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I completely understand this point but the only reason I'd argue against it is that Buffalo had the #1 D in the NFL and still got shredded by KC.  The league is all about O these days.  That said, if Hutch or Thibs were to fall to us at #4, I'd take either one.  And tbh, I wouldn't hate it if we took a LB at #10 either.  But I'd also be okay with a great OL at #4 (e.g. Ekwonu) and maybe a WR at #10 along with a TE in the 2nd round.

I guess I'm arguing both sides of this coin here (no surprise since we need so much) but I'm just making the argument that a reasonable person could've watched our awful D last year and still want us to draft O.  

If the Bills had our D, there wouldn't  have been OT. KC would have won by 30 in regulation.  

[Integrity28]

4 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

So much for humor.

Cool that we are throwing around first year philosophy terms.  AWESOME!  

That said, it has been discussed ad nauseam about cap allocation space and investing too many first rounders in one position.  Notice I did say that if Charles Cross is sitting there at #4, I am not sure how you could pass him up, given his ability to flip between both positions and the flexibility that allows.  If we don't trade out of #4, I am thinking drafting Cross and putting Becton on notice might not be a bad thing to do, even though it goes against the idea of three high picks in three years on O-line. 

You handle criticism well.

[TuscanyTile2]

5 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

If the Bills had our D, there wouldn't  have been OT. KC would have won by 30 in regulation.  

I think KC only punted 2 times the entire game.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/playbyplay/_/gameId/401326633

[68JET11]

2 hours ago, slats said:

The OL of Fant-AVT-McGovern-LDT-Moses was operating at a top 10 level. That’s a fine OL. Bring back Moses, and LDT (or an upgrade), put Becton on the right side, and your OL is good to go. They struggled early in the year learning the zone scheme, and that should’ve been expected. They don’t need to spend another high pick on the unit. They just don’t. 

That's all well and good if we were getting LDT and Moses back, however I don't think that is the case. Moses might be saying he wants to return, but I'm not sure I'd want to sign him long term with better options than him in this years draft. The right side of the line is what really needs to be upgraded. LDT did fine replacing GVR, but he's not the solution either plus he wants to work on his medical career. With AVT at LG we should have someone of his caliber at RG. As far as RT is concerned Ekwonu fills both needs. He can play RG or RT. RT especially if Becton doesn't pan out for usand maybe we can use Becton as RG, or a trade. I'm not saying we have to neglect defense completely but a strong OL that can be together for at least 4-5 years is the most important aspect of this team next to QB. Like I said if we get 2 OL in this years draft or one in the draft, and one in FA, we only need to keep using middle rounders that can replenish the line when it comes time to pay everyone. 

[Copernicus]

Today, without any trade downs my ideal draft would be #4 OT IKwonu, # 10 Edge Jermaine Johnson, #35 TE McBride, #38 Wr Pickens, #69 LB Muma

[CanadaSteve]

7 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

You handle criticism well.

Sorry, I didn't think your criticism was warranted and was having some fun.

My bad. 

[Integrity28]

9 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

Sorry, I didn't think your criticism was warranted and was having some fun.

My bad. 

Honestly, I don’t care.

[FidelioJet]

16 hours ago, Copernicus said:

Today, without any trade downs my ideal draft would be #4 OT IKwonu, # 10 Edge Jermaine Johnson, #35 TE McBride, #38 Wr Pickens, #69 LB Muma

I would sign up for this.  
Just don’t think McBride gets to 35 though. 

[slats]

16 hours ago, 68JET11 said:

That's all well and good if we were getting LDT and Moses back, however I don't think that is the case. Moses might be saying he wants to return, but I'm not sure I'd want to sign him long term with better options than him in this years draft. The right side of the line is what really needs to be upgraded. LDT did fine replacing GVR, but he's not the solution either plus he wants to work on his medical career. With AVT at LG we should have someone of his caliber at RG. As far as RT is concerned Ekwonu fills both needs. He can play RG or RT. RT especially if Becton doesn't pan out for usand maybe we can use Becton as RG, or a trade. I'm not saying we have to neglect defense completely but a strong OL that can be together for at least 4-5 years is the most important aspect of this team next to QB. Like I said if we get 2 OL in this years draft or one in the draft, and one in FA, we only need to keep using middle rounders that can replenish the line when it comes time to pay everyone. 

We disagree, it’s okay. The idea of spending the #4 pick on a RG or RT makes me physically ill. They’ll do more, but as long as they either resign LDT or bring in an upgrade in free agency, the starting OL will be in very good shape. Resign Moses and you’ve taken care of your Becton insurance. The main problem they had this past season was learning the zone scheme. They will not be the mess they were in the first half of the season again. It’s not an area of the team that needs another first round pick. 
 
What this team needs more than anything else is pass rushers and pass receivers. Weapons on both sides of the ball. Bring in a couple OL to develop over a year or two. 

[Augustiniak]

9 minutes ago, slats said:

We disagree, it’s okay. The idea of spending the #4 pick on a RG or RT makes me physically ill. They’ll do more, but as long as they either resign LDT or bring in an upgrade in free agency, the starting OL will be in very good shape. Resign Moses and you’ve taken care of your Becton insurance. The main problem they had this past season was learning the zone scheme. They will not be the mess they were in the first half of the season again. It’s not an area of the team that needs another first round pick. 
 
What this team needs more than anything else is pass rushers and pass receivers. Weapons on both sides of the ball. Bring in a couple OL to develop over a year or two. 

The best OL won’t matter when wilson is throwing to scrubs like Jeff smith.  

[68JET11]

13 minutes ago, slats said:

We disagree, it’s okay. The idea of spending the #4 pick on a RG or RT makes me physically ill. They’ll do more, but as long as they either resign LDT or bring in an upgrade in free agency, the starting OL will be in very good shape. Resign Moses and you’ve taken care of your Becton insurance. The main problem they had this past season was learning the zone scheme. They will not be the mess they were in the first half of the season again. It’s not an area of the team that needs another first round pick. 
 
What this team needs more than anything else is pass rushers and pass receivers. Weapons on both sides of the ball. Bring in a couple OL to develop over a year or two. 

It is ok, and unlike others that argue forever, I respect your opinion, and do agree that we need pass rushers. I just don't think there are any that warrant #4 pick. That's my only beef. if there was a Myles Garrett or Bosa at #4 then I'd be all for it. I also see that OL is deep and many good players can be picked in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. So while I like one side and you the other side at the top of the draft, neither of us are really wrong...

[UntouchableCrew]

30 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I would sign up for this.  
Just don’t think McBride gets to 35 though. 

Why not? TEs don't usually go first round unless they're athletic freaks (Pitts, Fant, OJ Howard, Evan Engram, etc.)

I'm not even sure McBride is the first TE off the board.

[UntouchableCrew]

21 minutes ago, slats said:

We disagree, it’s okay. The idea of spending the #4 pick on a RG or RT makes me physically ill. They’ll do more, but as long as they either resign LDT or bring in an upgrade in free agency, the starting OL will be in very good shape. Resign Moses and you’ve taken care of your Becton insurance. The main problem they had this past season was learning the zone scheme. They will not be the mess they were in the first half of the season again. It’s not an area of the team that needs another first round pick. 
 
What this team needs more than anything else is pass rushers and pass receivers. Weapons on both sides of the ball. Bring in a couple OL to develop over a year or two. 

Becton is really the monkey wrench here. I think the need to draft OL decreases significantly if you think you can depend on him. Instead you're stuck in a spot where you can't rely on him but it also seems like a stretch to sign/extend both Fant and Moses.

[CanadaSteve]

54 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I would sign up for this.  
Just don’t think McBride gets to 35 though. 

I was thinking the same thing.  I have seen a bunch of mocks with us getting McBride at 35, but I don't think he will be there either.  That said, who knows!

 

[CanadaSteve]

19 minutes ago, 68JET11 said:

It is ok, and unlike others that argue forever, I respect your opinion, and do agree that we need pass rushers. I just don't think there are any that warrant #4 pick. That's my only beef. if there was a Myles Garrett or Bosa at #4 then I'd be all for it. I also see that OL is deep and many good players can be picked in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. So while I like one side and you the other side at the top of the draft, neither of us are really wrong...

Like Slats, I do not like the idea of drafting OL with the #4 pick after spending #11 on a LT and #14 on a LG the past two years. 

That said, Ikem Ekwonu and Charles Cross are both, IMO, worth the #4 pick.  And one of Geroge Karlaftis, David Ojabo, Cameron Thomas, Jermaine Johnson, Drake Jackson will all be there at 10.  

Depending on what they want to do with the OL, and what QB's zoom up the board, #4 might be the bargaining chip to get more picks, and #10 potentially solves the edge rusher issue.

[CanadaSteve]

34 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

The best OL won’t matter when wilson is throwing to scrubs like Jeff smith.  

Which he won't be.

[BurntDice]

Extend Fant and sign Connor Williams. 
 

Fant-AVT-McGovern-Williams-Becton is a top 5 OL. There’s no reason to draft one in the first round or even the first 2 rounds. Draft a mid round guy to develop. 

[FidelioJet]

35 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Why not? TEs don't usually go first round unless they're athletic freaks (Pitts, Fant, OJ Howard, Evan Engram, etc.)

I'm not even sure McBride is the first TE off the board.

I certainly hope I’m wrong. But the kid looks really good and there’s a lot of buzz about him.  
I think the Jets will need to address TE in FA though in case they don’t find a good one in the draft.  They can’t go into next season with nothing at the position again. 
 

[Jimmy 2 Times]

1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

I would sign up for this.  
Just don’t think McBride gets to 35 though. 

How about Jermaine Johnson @ 4, Devin Lloyd @ 10, Zion Johnson @ 35, Pickens @ 38, and Ruckert @ 69?

Same positions.

Imo, the drop-off from Ike to Johnson and McBride to Ruckert isn't as great as Lloyd to the second tier linebackers. 

We can still build around Zach without reaching for positions of need if they supplement the draft with free agency. 

[slats]

7 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I certainly hope I’m wrong. But the kid looks really good and there’s a lot of buzz about him.  
I think the Jets will need to address TE in FA though in case they don’t find a good one in the draft.  They can’t go into next season with nothing at the position again. 
 

Jets need two starting caliber TEs instead of zero. I definitely expect them to hit the position in free agency and then again in the draft.
 
People here are acting as if McBride is the only TE in the draft, too. Not sure how he got so hyped up. This year looks pretty deep at TE, including a couple guys the Jets just coached in the Senior Bowl. 

[UntouchableCrew]

18 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I certainly hope I’m wrong. But the kid looks really good and there’s a lot of buzz about him.  
I think the Jets will need to address TE in FA though in case they don’t find a good one in the draft.  They can’t go into next season with nothing at the position again. 
 

Don't get me wrong I like McBride. First round TEs are just fairly uncommon so I don't think we need to trade back or up to get him.

[FidelioJet]

8 minutes ago, Jimmy 2 Times said:

How about Jermaine Johnson @ 4, Devin Lloyd @ 10, Zion Johnson @ 35, Pickens @ 38, and Ruckert @ 69?

Same positions.

Imo, the drop-off from Ike to Johnson and McBride to Ruckert isn't as great as Lloyd to the second tier linebackers. 

We can still build around Zach without reaching for positions of need if they supplement the draft with free agency. 

I don’t love taking LB’s that early but I would be fine with this.  I do think Jermaine Johnson will be there at 10 though.  
 

But yes.  Things will get much clearer after FA.  If Schultz gets signed TE is far less urgent, if a top tier WR gets signed WR in the top 10 is no longer necessary.   If a top guard is signed. You don’t need a G in the top 38.  
 

I know it sucks again,  but it should be a really fun off season. Jets really do have so many ways to go.