McShay and Jeremiah both have Jets taking a corner at pick 10

[92ShaunEllis92]

On 2/21/2022 at 6:42 AM, BurntDice said:

You are going over all the usual talking points. Why would they pay Sherman top $/have one of the best cbs in the league then draft a cb in round 1?

You’re about as wrong as can be.

All the valid points shutting down your weak argument have been clearly pointed out and explained. Yet, you’re stubborn and belligerent in demonstrating you clearly don’t understand the purpose and function of a CB in this current Jets defensive scheme and the lower priority it causes in drafting man coverage CBs which are the premium position and require a higher pick to attain that talent level  

Jets need athletic and long CBs for Zone coverage, not rare specimens that specialize in man coverage  

 

[doitny]

8 hours ago, K_O_Brien said:

 

 

i have been trying to tell people this since the end of the season.

[Claymation]

And yet DJ has the Jets taking Ikem with the 4th pick.

If the Jets brass likes Thib and select him with the 4th pick, I could see them looking at Zion in the 2nd.

[BurntDice]

3 hours ago, 92ShaunEllis92 said:

You’re about as wrong as can be.

All the valid points shutting down your weak argument have been clearly pointed out and explained. Yet, you’re stubborn and belligerent in demonstrating you clearly don’t understand the purpose and function of a CB in this current Jets defensive scheme and the lower priority it causes in drafting man coverage CBs which are the premium position and require a higher pick to attain that talent level  

Jets need athletic and long CBs for Zone coverage, not rare specimens that specialize in man coverage  

 

LMAO you still haven’t answered how it makes sense to pay a cb top money and not value the position? Why would you draft a 1st round cb with a top cb on the roster. 

[92ShaunEllis92]

5 minutes ago, BurntDice said:

LMAO you still haven’t answered how it makes sense to pay a cb top money and not value the position? Why would you draft a 1st round cb with a top cb on the roster. 

I was never answering your question. 

my statement comes from observing the discourse in the thread and how multiple other posters have clearly explained why your argument and (lack of) rationale is misguided and simple, at best. 
 

glad you can have a laugh at yourself. 
 

Jets don’t need to draft a CB high (usually implies that player has excellent man coverage skills) for the player to excel in this mostly zone-coverage defense.

ONCE, that player has excelled in the system, probably taken on a leadership/locker-room role, IN ADDITION to earning a 2nd contract, YES! That’s when you pay market rates to KEEP a player (even a CB) if they have developed and evolved into a crucial part of your team. That’s the scenario where a CB would sign a 2nd contract to be RETAINED at a premium, which seems like the weak argument your trying to validate. 
 

 

[Hal N of Provo]

11 hours ago, WestCoastMole said:

To Daniel Jeremiah and others ..... YES ! ! !

The Jets drafted 2 Time Pro Bowl Center Joe Fields in the 14th Round of the 1975 Draft.

He was 6’2 and 249 pounds.   Some things have changed since ‘75 

[BurntDice]

35 minutes ago, 92ShaunEllis92 said:

I was never answering your question. 

my statement comes from observing the discourse in the thread and how multiple other posters have clearly explained why your argument and (lack of) rationale is misguided and simple, at best. 
 

glad you can have a laugh at yourself. 
 

Jets don’t need to draft a CB high (usually implies that player has excellent man coverage skills) for the player to excel in this mostly zone-coverage defense.

ONCE, that player has excelled in the system, probably taken on a leadership/locker-room role, IN ADDITION to earning a 2nd contract, YES! That’s when you pay market rates to KEEP a player (even a CB) if they have developed and evolved into a crucial part of your team. That’s the scenario where a CB would sign a 2nd contract to be RETAINED at a premium, which seems like the weak argument your trying to validate. 
 

 

Not a single person answered either one of those questions (including you). They just keep saying zone doesn’t need good cbs. Sherman was a diamond they found. It’s not common at all that you find top flight cbs in the mid-later rounds. The only time these teams have won is when they had a great cb in place. Look at the hawks post Sherman and the 9ers pre/post Sherman. They had a rough time with mediocre or below corners. 
 

you’re saying to keep throwing darts in the mid rounds in hopes of finding a #1 cb (which is very unlikely) while the defense gets shredded in the passing game seems like a very illogical argument 

Also you know what other teams play a lot of zone? The Brown’s, Bills, Packers and the Panthers. What did they draft recently? 1st round CBS. The cowboys play a lot of zone too and took one in the 2nd. 

[JohnnyLV]

1 hour ago, BurntDice said:

Not a single person answered either one of those questions (including you). They just keep saying zone doesn’t need good cbs.

That is a distortion. The system Saleh runs does not require match up man corners. If they have that skill it provides extra capability and flexibility. However, you can often get the best zone only sort of CBs in rounds 4 and after. One of the Jets selections last year was the highest rated zone corner.

[choon328]

1 hour ago, BurntDice said:

Not a single person answered either one of those questions (including you). They just keep saying zone doesn’t need good cbs. Sherman was a diamond they found. It’s not common at all that you find top flight cbs in the mid-later rounds. The only time these teams have won is when they had a great cb in place. Look at the hawks post Sherman and the 9ers pre/post Sherman. They had a rough time with mediocre or below corners. 
 

you’re saying to keep throwing darts in the mid rounds in hopes of finding a #1 cb (which is very unlikely) while the defense gets shredded in the passing game seems like a very illogical argument 

Also you know what other teams play a lot of zone? The Brown’s, Bills, Packers and the Panthers. What did they draft recently? 1st round CBS. The cowboys play a lot of zone too and took one in the 2nd. 

Go look at the Legion of Boom secondary and point out the high draft pick in the group. I'll wait...

[Beerfish]

4 hours ago, doitny said:

i have been trying to tell people this since the end of the season.

The higher you pick a player of any position the more likely they are to be good or functional or a starter or a pro bowler.

You can literally toss out gobs of examples of finding good players at any position and thus call into doubt 'the need to use high picks.'

With the jets they neglected the oline for about a decade, had a shi**y oline and thus had catching up to do.

As for this draft, I am not in full lobby mode to take an olineman high as i normally am, but the top end talent is lousy in this draft imo.  If the best player there for us is an olineman no problems for me.

[choon328]

1 hour ago, BurntDice said:

Not a single person answered either one of those questions (including you). They just keep saying zone doesn’t need good cbs. Sherman was a diamond they found. It’s not common at all that you find top flight cbs in the mid-later rounds. The only time these teams have won is when they had a great cb in place. Look at the hawks post Sherman and the 9ers pre/post Sherman. They had a rough time with mediocre or below corners. 
 

you’re saying to keep throwing darts in the mid rounds in hopes of finding a #1 cb (which is very unlikely) while the defense gets shredded in the passing game seems like a very illogical argument 

Also you know what other teams play a lot of zone? The Brown’s, Bills, Packers and the Panthers. What did they draft recently? 1st round CBS. The cowboys play a lot of zone too and took one in the 2nd. 

Here's a perfect example for you.  Nnamdi Asomugha. 4 time All Pro CB with the Raiders and their zone defense and was thought of as the 2nd best CB in the nfl to Revis for a number of years. He goes to Philly in a man heavy defense and is terrible and his contract became an albatross. 

There are man CB's who would be lost in a zone scheme and vice versa. Those two styles don't automatically translate. 

[BurntDice]

16 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

That is a distortion. The system Saleh runs does not require match up man corners. If they have that skill it provides extra capability and flexibility. However, you can often get the best zone only sort of CBs in rounds 4 and after. One of the Jets selections last year was the highest rated zone corner.

Who Echols? Echols is 100% not highly rated. I mentioned other teams who play zone and drafted cbs in the first 

[BurntDice]

1 hour ago, choon328 said:

Here's a perfect example for you.  Nnamdi Asomugha. 4 time All Pro CB with the Raiders and their zone defense and was thought of as the 2nd best CB in the nfl to Revis for a number of years. He goes to Philly in a man heavy defense and is terrible and his contract became an albatross. 

There are man CB's who would be lost in a zone scheme and vice versa. Those two styles don't automatically translate. 

It is a perfect example because he was drafted in the first round. It shows it takes a ton of talent and skill to play in zone just like it does for man. Different skills? Yes, but zone corners still need to excel in reading routes, jumping passes, covering their man who’s in said zone,  knowing their assignment, and playing man over a third of the time  

[section314]

7 minutes ago, BurntDice said:

It is a perfect example because he was drafted in the first round. It shows it takes a ton of talent and skill to play in zone just like it does for man. Different skills? Yes, but zone corners still need to excel in reading routes, jumping passes, covering their man who’s in said zone,  knowing their assignment, and playing man over a third of the time  

Basically a match up zone in hoops.

[BurntDice]

14 minutes ago, section314 said:

Basically a match up zone in hoops.

Exactly!

[doitny]

1 hour ago, Beerfish said:

The higher you pick a player of any position the more likely they are to be good or functional or a starter or a pro bowler.

You can literally toss out gobs of examples of finding good players at any position and thus call into doubt 'the need to use high picks.'

With the jets they neglected the oline for about a decade, had a shi**y oline and thus had catching up to do.

As for this draft, I am not in full lobby mode to take an olineman high as i normally am, but the top end talent is lousy in this draft imo.  If the best player there for us is an olineman no problems for me.

why is it that with a team with so many holes that the last 3 years every time we pick in rd 1 the best player is a OL.

what you want to do is go BAP. so we do it again next year and the year after that? where do you draw the line? and we will need OL help next year. Mcg will probably be gone. Fant might not take the extension. Becton might not be good or even on the field. you just cant keep ignoring the other positions.

if your OL guy is a A and the next non OL guy is a B, i would take the latter cause it will fill a huge hole. 

[choon328]

3 hours ago, BurntDice said:

It is a perfect example because he was drafted in the first round. It shows it takes a ton of talent and skill to play in zone just like it does for man. Different skills? Yes, but zone corners still need to excel in reading routes, jumping passes, covering their man who’s in said zone,  knowing their assignment, and playing man over a third of the time  

Did you look up the Legion Of Boom yet? Arguably the greatest secondary in the history of the NFL. Please point out the premium draft pick that was spent on the 2 starting CB's and the Nickel Back. I'll wait

[choon328]

3 hours ago, BurntDice said:

It is a perfect example because he was drafted in the first round. It shows it takes a ton of talent and skill to play in zone just like it does for man. Different skills? Yes, but zone corners still need to excel in reading routes, jumping passes, covering their man who’s in said zone,  knowing their assignment, and playing man over a third of the time  

Yes, but Zone CB's get drafted later in the draft bc they are not valued as highly as man to man CB's. That is an inarguable fact based on the last 10 drafts. It's not an opinion. 

[BurntDice]

44 minutes ago, choon328 said:

Yes, but Zone CB's get drafted later in the draft bc they are not valued as highly as man to man CB's. That is an inarguable fact based on the last 10 drafts. It's not an opinion. 

Dude I just named 4 1st round zone cbs that were drafted in the last couple years. You may think that you are correct but it’s just not true. 
 

Denzel Ward, Tredavious White, Jaycee Horn, Erick Stokes.
 

Are you going to try and argue against this still? There’s more too 

[SR24]

Sign- Quandre Diggs+ James Daniels+ Njoku

Trade- #38 for Cooper/Ridley/Jeudy/DJ Moore

Draft- KT, Sauce and McBride with the first 3 picks.

As far as 38 goes I’d take any of those WRs in a heartbeat. I think we could get Cooper for less with that contract so I’d try to get him for a 3rd and a late pick next year. I like it 

[WestCoastMole]

7 hours ago, Hal N of Provo said:

He was 6’2 and 249 pounds.   Some things have changed since ‘75 

Pro Bowl selection is done by a vote of the players based upon whom they think is the best player they played against during the previous season. It is about the demonstrated skill of the player. That hasn't changed since 1975.

[BurntDice]

5 minutes ago, WestCoastMole said:

Pro Bowl selection is done by a vote of the players based upon whom they think is the best player they played against during the previous season. It is about the demonstrated skill of the player. That hasn't changed since 1975.

Until the fans started voting 

[Dcat]

After hearing Saleh today...  corner at 4? I doubt it.  He's no GM, but even he understands the urgent need and supreme value of a cornerstone pass rusher. Saleh will have his input, particularly if the choice is to go defense.

 

[WestCoastMole]

22 minutes ago, BurntDice said:

Until the fans started voting 

And how many games did the Fans Play in 1975 ? For that matter how many games do the fans play in 2021 ? Back in 75 being nominated to Pro-Bowl came as recognition from your peers. In 2021 it speaks to a beauty contest and how to manipulate public opinion.

[BurntDice]

21 minutes ago, WestCoastMole said:

And how many games did the Fans Play in 1975 ? For that matter how many games do the fans play in 2021 ? Back in 75 being nominated to Pro-Bowl came as recognition from your peers. In 2021 it speaks to a beauty contest and how to manipulate public opinion.

Exactly it’s just a popularity contest now