Joe Douglas is not a "Terrible GM"

[slimjasi]

2 hours ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I understand not wanting to crown Joe Douglas until the Jets actually win something. Makes total sense.

But there's also this weird, self loathing denial from a lot of posters here about the fact that pretty much everyone thinks this Jets roster is really talented.

I've noticed this too. It's over the top, to say the least. Although, it's a natural byproduct of so many consecutive years of losing and misery. It's understandable that people have stopped believing good things can actually happen to the Jets. 

[Jetsfan80]

7 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Yea, the 4-5 years is too long. 

You highlighted the two big misses: Zach and Becton. To me, it's basically all about those two decisions. Taking Wirfs and Chase, or maybe  Lamb and Sewell, would have been huge. Having said that, I'm not sure what we would have done about QB in either scenario. An interesting what if, for sure 

I only know what I wanted at the time - trade Darnold, don’t take Zach Wilson, and roll with a QB like Winston or Minshew.  

[BCJet]

4 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

You will be told “they hit the lotto at QB”, but that’s not actually the answer. They put the right people in charge and have aggressively pursued one good move after another, while drafting more good players.

Our GM has a terrible hit rate on draft picks in total, and his “moves” are mostly atrocious and/or laughable.

This is not a fair characterization of the Texans at all.  Bryce Young is 5'10 and somewhere between 190 and 200 pounds, basically the smallest QB to ever be selected in the first round let alone 1st overall.  Very few teams had him as the first QB over Stround and it is essentially common knowledge that David Tepper stepped in and made that selection. Had the GM and coach at the time had their choice, they would have taken stroud and the Texans would either be looking for a QB or would be stuck with Bryce Young.

Im not saying the Texans havent done a good job surrouding him with good players but usually things like this are a combination of smart moves AND a little bit of luck which the Texans definitely received.

[Sperm Edwards]

1 minute ago, Warfish said:

Could?  Sure, maybe.

Would?  Not me.

Whomever our post-Rodgers-Era QB will be, he'll be better off with the best O-Line and RB's he can get.

Yep, particularly with him being such a receiving weapon. It's not nothing when busted plays turn into 10-30 yard first downs instead of sacks or punts or forcing an attempt past the sticks for a pick. 

If he could be replaced for far less, without a night & day drop-off, yeah sure emotions aside everyone is for that no matter how much of a fan favorite Hall has become.

A lot easier said than done. Special players are special, and can change the offense for the better beyond their individual yardage. 

[slimjasi]

4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I only know what I wanted at the time - trade Darnold, don’t take Zach Wilson, and roll with a QB like Winston or Minshew.  

I wanted to draft Fields (which, I'm not convinced would have been that much better than drafting Wilson, as it turns out).

Your plan would have been better. 

So many What Ifs, though. 

If we had Minshew in 2021 and he played well, we may not have been bad enough to draft Sauce and GW. 

[BornJetsFan1983]

5 hours ago, OilfieldJet said:

And if not he should be fired immediately.

Well I do think that is reasonable, I mean if this team fails you can argue that the coaching and FO need to go, there should be no excuses now. There need to be results. 

Even the catastrophic freak injury to Rodgers last year season I think you saw results that would be hard for any team to accomplish in similar circumstances, but if it were to happen again, I don't think Joe would be safe if his team failed again to make the playoffs. We a decent back up now and it should be expected to make the playoffs and win some games.

That is also reasonable.

He is a great GM but really it all comes down to this, just like everyone else, you are only as good as your most recent record in the NFL.

I for one think and hope Joe is our GM in perpetuity to he retires and puts up 2 or 3 Lombardi's for us.

 

[BornJetsFan1983]

7 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

I wanted to draft Fields (which, I'm not convinced would have been that much better than drafting Wilson, as it turns out).

Your plan would have been better. 

So many What Ifs, though. 

If we had Minshew in 2021 and he played well, we may not have been bad enough to draft Sauce and GW. 

I think you are right there...i rather have the awesome draft we had with sauce and the others, Im that side of the coin every time. Cause it gets us closest to SB. If we play decent or wont a handful of more games we still dont win SB. At the end of the day all I care abotu is winning that SB. And the recipe to do that is well built roster and well run team, which is what Joe has done for us. 

Its time to take those cookies out of the oven. We been baking for long enough its time1

 

[doitny]

30 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Also, I keep thinking I dislike this thread title.....

It's not about being "terrible" or not.

It's about being GOOD.  Better yet, GREAT.

Is Joe Douglas a GREAT GM?  If yes, why?

If he isn't great, or even very good, why should we retain him?  Are we accepting of "average" or worse?

So flip the script here, is Joe Douglas a GREAT GM, and is yes, why?  Start there.

he is only average because he messed up at the most important position in the NFL. if he had a little better QB play the last few years we probably make the playoffs both years. 

and thats why you retain him. you might not believe this is a top 10 roster but every one i seen from websites ( PFF.com 4TH Rank, NFL.com 10th, FOX Sports 8th, ESPN 4th) to football insiders do.

you dont get rid of a GM who the entire league thinks put together a top 10 roster even if he messed up on the QB which he tried to fix but Rodgers got hurt. top 10 is not average. he is a good GM

 

[GangGreened]

21 minutes ago, doitny said:

he is only average because he messed up at the most important position in the NFL. if he had a little better QB play the last few years we probably make the playoffs both years. 

and thats why you retain him. you might not believe this is a top 10 roster but every one i seen from websites ( PFF.com 4TH Rank, NFL.com 10th, FOX Sports 8th, ESPN 4th) to football insiders do.

you dont get rid of a GM who the entire league thinks put together a top 10 roster even if he messed up on the QB which he tried to fix but Rodgers got hurt. top 10 is not average. he is a good GM

 

He’s usually ranked somewhere in the 15-25 range in GM “power rankings” which is pretty accurate. He’s a decent GM. Not top 10, but not bottom 10 either (if your not taking wins and losses into account)

But there is no sense in arguing about keeping him if this team falls short this year. Woody will fire him and rightfully so. He makes the playoffs and he gets an extension.

[slimjasi]

37 minutes ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

I think you are right there...i rather have the awesome draft we had with sauce and the others, Im that side of the coin every time. Cause it gets us closest to SB. If we play decent or wont a handful of more games we still dont win SB. At the end of the day all I care abotu is winning that SB. And the recipe to do that is well built roster and well run team, which is what Joe has done for us. 

Its time to take those cookies out of the oven. We been baking for long enough its time1

 

Note that I didn’t say I’d rather have sucked in 2021 as bad as we did to get Sauce and GW, only that replacing Zach with a better veteran QB would have probably led to a very different future. 
 

While we did have an awesome draft in 2022, we could have had an awesome draft in 2021 by trading down and loading up in a loaded class. 

either way, the past is the past and I’m excited to have GW (already becoming one of my favorite Jets ever) and Sauce and am very much looking forward to Jets football this year. 

[kmnj]

29 minutes ago, doitny said:

he is only average because he messed up at the most important position in the NFL. if he had a little better QB play the last few years we probably make the playoffs both years. 

and thats why you retain him. you might not believe this is a top 10 roster but every one i seen from websites ( PFF.com 4TH Rank, NFL.com 10th, FOX Sports 8th, ESPN 4th) to football insiders do.

you dont get rid of a GM who the entire league thinks put together a top 10 roster even if he messed up on the QB which he tried to fix but Rodgers got hurt. top 10 is not average. he is a good GM

 

some of my favorite Parcells quotes  are appropriate here 

Potential means you haven't done anything yet.”  Bill Parcells

You are what your record says you are -Bill Parcells

You don't get any medal for trying something, you get medals for results. Bill Parcells

 

 

 

[BCJet]

2 hours ago, Warfish said:

Could?  Sure, maybe.

Would?  Not me.

Whomever our post-Rodgers-Era QB will be, he'll be better off with the best O-Line and RB's he can get.

This is why, although it could make sense to trade an expensive RB, you are going to likely have a young QB who needs all the weapons possible while on his rookie contract.

While JD is going to have his work cut out for him extending Garret, Sauce, Breece, JJ, Quincy, and possibly AVT, there are going to be a lot of veterans who will come off the books that will help out.

DJ Reed - $10 million ($4 million dead money)

Kinlaw - $3 million (1 million dead money)

Tyron Smith - $2.7 million (1 million dead money)

Conklin - $7 million ($2 million dead money)

Lazard - $11 million ($2 million dead money)

Mosley (2025) - disaster of a contract that only saves $4 million with a ton of dead money spread out

And then there is Rogers who has $14 million of dead cap in 2025, 2026 and 2027 but as of now saves $49 million off the cap after next season. 

All of the above is why we need to pick a QB in the first or second round next year to hopefully sit behind rogers for a season and become the starter on a rookie deal in 2026.

[bicketybam]

59 minutes ago, kmnj said:

some of my favorite Parcells quotes  are appropriate here 

Potential means you haven't done anything yet.”  Bill Parcells

You are what your record says you are -Bill Parcells

You don't get any medal for trying something, you get medals for results. Bill Parcells

 

 

 

Remind me what Bill Parcells did for us that Rex Ryan didn't do. Twice.

[Jet_Engine1]

5 hours ago, bicketybam said:

Did you forget we went to back to back AFC Championship games after Parcells' mighty achievement? 

BP got us to one AFCCG, coached one more season and then packed his sh*t and left town. What a time for hope!

Dude... 1998 was so much better than those teams it's not even funny. The '98 Jets were the ONLY Jets team in my lifetime that was elite and even dominant at times. It's a shame what happened that second half of the AFCCG. 

[Claymation]

6 hours ago, kmnj said:

they started 1-6 then went on a run to finish 8-8(8 wins is more than Joes team has achieved even in a shorter season no less)l -Parcells admitted if he would have gone to Lucas earlier the team probably goes to the playoffs 

 

Maybe Parcells should listen to the words he spoke. 

[jgb]

8 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

Not what I said at all.  Let me say it again.  IF Allen comes out of the gate this year and plays like he is being touted he could, you could trade Hall next year and not have to sign him to a big contract.  You would essentially replace his production for an additional two years on the cheap.  

The key word is "IF."  

This just feels like “too clever by half.”

[jgb]

37 minutes ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

Dude... 1998 was so much better than those teams it's not even funny. The '98 Jets were the ONLY Jets team in my lifetime that was elite and even dominant at times. It's a shame what happened that second half of the AFCCG. 

The 98 team was the only team in my lifetime where I felt like we had a chance against anybody, any week and no matter what the score was, I always thought we had a shot to come roaring back in the 4th.

[Matt39]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

The 98 team was the only team in my lifetime where I felt like we had a chance against anybody, any week and no matter what the score was, I always thought we had a shot to come roaring back in the 4th.

The Denver team the Jets lost to you could argue was top 15 all time 

[slimjasi]

Just now, Matt39 said:

The Denver team the Jets lost to you could argue was top 15 all time 

I'd say top 10. 

Historically dominant running game, veteran QB with clutch genes, great WRs, underrated defense, and an elite offensive coach of his era. 

[jgb]

1 minute ago, Matt39 said:

The Denver team the Jets lost to you could argue was top 15 all time 

The pity was whoever won AFC Championship was gonna smash Atlanta.

[slimjasi]

5 minutes ago, jgb said:

The 98 team was the only team in my lifetime where I felt like we had a chance against anybody, any week and no matter what the score was, I always thought we had a shot to come roaring back in the 4th.

Easily the best all-around Jets team since SB III

[dbatesman]

8 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

Not what I said at all.  Let me say it again.  IF Allen comes out of the gate this year and plays like he is being touted he could, you could trade Hall next year and not have to sign him to a big contract.  You would essentially replace his production for an additional two years on the cheap.  

The key word is "IF."  

What is the anticipated return for a guy who plays the most replaceable position in football, is going into a contract year, and already has an ACL and meniscus tear on his chart?

[jgb]

5 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

What is the anticipated return for a guy who plays the most replaceable position in football, is going into a contract year, and already has an ACL and meniscus tear on his chart?

Somewhere between seven and thirteen first round picks 

[bicketybam]

1 hour ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

Dude... 1998 was so much better than those teams it's not even funny. The '98 Jets were the ONLY Jets team in my lifetime that was elite and even dominant at times. It's a shame what happened that second half of the AFCCG. 

Built to last!

[Jets0712]

Dude... 1998 was so much better than those teams it's not even funny. The '98 Jets were the ONLY Jets team in my lifetime that was elite and even dominant at times. It's a shame what happened that second half of the AFCCG. 

That 98 team was and continues to be the only time EVER rooting for the Jets that I didn’t feel as though the other shoe was gonna drop. Than that 2nd half happened 🤬


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[slimjasi]

1 hour ago, bicketybam said:

Built to last!

As opposed to the 2010 team? 

[bicketybam]

6 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

As opposed to the 2010 team? 

2009 back to back

[slimjasi]

1 hour ago, bicketybam said:

2009 back to back

A fun two years it was. 
 

But neither of those teams was as good as the 98 team, mainly because the 98 team was vastly superior at QB and HC. And the fall after 2010 was precipitous. 

[Integrity28]

10 hours ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

Or.... they were saved by Carolina picking the wrong guy. Or that.

So, does this prove my comment that our GM has a terrible draft hit rate and is awful at FA wrong? Or are we going to fixate on my praise of the Texans and ignore the fact-based part of what I said?

[T0mShane]

9 hours ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I understand not wanting to crown Joe Douglas until the Jets actually win something. Makes total sense.

But there's also this weird, self loathing denial from a lot of posters here about the fact that pretty much everyone thinks this Jets roster is really talented.

Like sure Douglas has had bad moves. Every GM has bad moves. But if you look at the roster when he took over vs. the roster now virtually every football analyst on the planet will tell you we went from a team with very little talent at all to one of the more talented rosters in the NFL.

The negative case is that the roster is currently propped up by a bunch of veteran castoffs brought in on one year deals the 11th hour to replace a legion of failed draft picks at critical positions. If you give any GM enough time, picks, and money, he’ll eventually be able to buy enough spackle to smooth over his ****ups. 

[Integrity28]

7 hours ago, BCJet said:

This is not a fair characterization of the Texans at all.  Bryce Young is 5'10 and somewhere between 190 and 200 pounds, basically the smallest QB to ever be selected in the first round let alone 1st overall.  Very few teams had him as the first QB over Stround and it is essentially common knowledge that David Tepper stepped in and made that selection. Had the GM and coach at the time had their choice, they would have taken stroud and the Texans would either be looking for a QB or would be stuck with Bryce Young.

Im not saying the Texans havent done a good job surrouding him with good players but usually things like this are a combination of smart moves AND a little bit of luck which the Texans definitely received.

So, the moves they’ve made this offseason to level up have nothing to do with Carolina picking Bryce.

[Jet_Engine1]

33 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

So, does this prove my comment that our GM has a terrible draft hit rate and is awful at FA wrong? Or are we going to fixate on my praise of the Texans and ignore the fact-based part of what I said?

Yes.

[mfmartin]

I wanted to draft Fields (which, I'm not convinced would have been that much better than drafting Wilson, as it turns out).
Your plan would have been better. 
So many What Ifs, though. 
If we had Minshew in 2021 and he played well, we may not have been bad enough to draft Sauce and GW. 

Well Garrett was the Seahawks pick so we definitely still get him.


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[mfmartin]

he is only average because he messed up at the most important position in the NFL. if he had a little better QB play the last few years we probably make the playoffs both years. 
and thats why you retain him. you might not believe this is a top 10 roster but every one i seen from websites ( PFF.com 4TH Rank, NFL.com 10th, FOX Sports 8th, ESPN 4th) to football insiders do.
you dont get rid of a GM who the entire league thinks put together a top 10 roster even if he messed up on the QB which he tried to fix but Rodgers got hurt. top 10 is not average. he is a good GM
 

You don’t extend a guy because some journalism writer thinks the roster is top 10.


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[JetsFlyer]

10 hours ago, mfmartin said:

 

Where does his winning percentage fit in there?


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thats a result, not a move, decision or skill...see QB and coaching and owner control for your answer