BigOrangeJetFan Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Last week had a nostalgia post (good and bad) on Mark Gastineau. Some still have resentment toward Joe Walton for not taking us to a Super Bowl, considering what he had to work with. Who was more incompetent Walton or Herm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 This is a great topic. I'm voting for Walton. Stars on both offense and defense and he STILL couldn't get it done. Herm is not far behind, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Herm. at least Walton could fool the other team and wasn't predictable. Herm's era was the most aggravating and frustrating for me, hands down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Moses Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 They both inherited the two best teams we ever had since 1968-69. They both destroyed both teams in 3-5 years. It's a wash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billo83 Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Last week had a nostalgia post (good and bad) on Mark Gastineau. Some still have resentment toward Joe Walton for not taking us to a Super Bowl, considering what he had to work with. Who was more incompetent Walton or Herm? That's a tough one. I'd have to say Walton by a nose. But Herm is definitely the bigger idiot of the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Walton took over a back to back playoff team and a team that was just in the AFC Championship, Herm took over a team that hadn't made the playoffs in 3 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Walton took over a back to back playoff team and a team that was just in the AFC Championship, Herm took over a team that hadn't made the playoffs in 3 years. I agree totally. Walton was the worst motivator ever. He pissed those players off and lost that team. He had a decent team and they have nothing to show for it. This one isn't even close. Walton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoFlaJets Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 That's a tough one. I'd have to say Walton by a nose. But Herm is definitely the bigger idiot of the two. funny that you say by a nose Bill-because I can almost only remember the nose PICKING thing about Walton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistalava Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Damn good question. At first glance I'd have to say Walton because that was easily a more talented team top to bottom. Throw in the BBQ factor and Herm definitely takes the crown as King Of The Idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernJet Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 funny that you say by a nose Bill-because I can almost only remember the nose PICKING thing about Walton ole Joe was greatest picker in NFL History Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugg Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 This is a great topic. I'm voting for Walton. Stars on both offense and defense and he STILL couldn't get it done. Herm is not far behind, though. Agreed. Put it this way-the 1986 team started 10-1, and Walton pretty much shat the bed from there. Even then, they had no business losing that Gastineau game in Cleveland, and they were a better team than either the Broncos or the Jints. And that was even with Klecko hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Agreed. Put it this way-the 1986 team started 10-1, and Walton pretty much shat the bed from there. Even then, they had no business losing that Gastineau game in Cleveland, and they were a better team than either the Broncos or the Jints. And that was even with Klecko hurt. Walton was not a good coach but o0ur team was decimated defensively late in '86 and O'brien hurt his throwing shoulder and was never the same. If Ryan doesn't get hurt at Cle we beat the browns and obviously if gastineau doesn't get that penalty we most likely beat the browns. Those were circumstances beyond Walton's control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugg Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Walton was not a good coach but o0ur team was decimated defensively late in '86 and O'brien hurt his throwing shoulder and was never the same. If Ryan doesn't get hurt at Cle we beat the browns and obviously if gastineau doesn't get that penalty we most likely beat the browns. Those were circumstances beyond Walton's control. As a Jets fan, Ive sat through some bad losses. The Steelers game comes to mind,but it was NOTHING compared to that Browns game. The set of circumstances that conspired to lose that game in regulation was ridiculous-Gastineau's idiocy of RTP on a 4th down, Brian Brennan making a ridiculous catch, piss poor playcalls, prett much giving up offense in OT. It was historically horrendous.And to top it off with the Jints winning it all was like the ultimate slap in the face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 As a Jets fan, Ive sat through some bad losses. The Steelers game comes to mind,but it was NOTHING compared to that Browns game. The set of circumstances that conspired to lose that game in regulation was ridiculous-Gastineau's idiocy of RTP on a 4th down, Brian Brennan making a ridiculous catch, piss poor playcalls, prett much giving up offense in OT. It was historically horrendous.And to top it off with the Jints winning it all was like the ultimate slap in the face. Oh, and Walton going into an offensive shell in the OT quarters, as the Jets continued to lose field position. It was maddening. Walton lost his lockerroom (he called the players "pea-brained"), and that was something Herm never did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernJet Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 browns game was worst i ever had to endure,,we had game won except for dumb penalty at end.. dolphins with todd,we had better team, but werent ahead,, steelers a few years back,,we still needed to kick the FG to win. browns,,we had it won,,f'in roided up gastineau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 As a Jets fan, Ive sat through some bad losses. The Steelers game comes to mind,but it was NOTHING compared to that Browns game. The set of circumstances that conspired to lose that game in regulation was ridiculous-Gastineau's idiocy of RTP on a 4th down, Brian Brennan making a ridiculous catch, piss poor playcalls, prett much giving up offense in OT. It was historically horrendous.And to top it off with the Jints winning it all was like the ultimate slap in the face. I agree it's up there but I ranke the Pitt loss as worse b/c we actually had 2 chances to win in the final minutes. Had we beaten cleveland and beaten denver we would have been crushed by the Giants so it was better to lose before suffering that humiliation. Sure we may have lost to NE a week after Pitt but that wouldn't have been as bad as losing a SB to the Giants. We went into a shell on O b/c O'Brien couldn't throw, that wasn't Walton's fault. O'Brien didn't do much after he came in for ryan, Freeman had the big run but the passing O wasn't there w/ Kenny. They took away the run in OT and we couldn't do anything through the air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docdhc Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 I agree it's up there but I ranke the Pitt loss as worse b/c we actually had 2 chances to win in the final minutes. Had we beaten cleveland and beaten denver we would have been crushed by the Giants so it was better to lose before suffering that humiliation. Sure we may have lost to NE a week after Pitt but that wouldn't have been as bad as losing a SB to the Giants. We went into a shell on O b/c O'Brien couldn't throw, that wasn't Walton's fault. O'Brien didn't do much after he came in for ryan, Freeman had the big run but the passing O wasn't there w/ Kenny. They took away the run in OT and we couldn't do anything through the air. I didn't remember that O'Brien was damaged goods. I thought Ryan was Walton's man and he didn't have any confidence in Kenny, so he wouldn't call any passes. In any case, it was OT in a playoff game, you have to call some pass plays no matter what shape the QB was in, you had nothing to lose. Walton just gave up and that's what made it so hard to take. I agree, though, we weren't beating that Giant team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSGold12 Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Last week had a nostalgia post (good and bad) on Mark Gastineau. Some still have resentment toward Joe Walton for not taking us to a Super Bowl, considering what he had to work with. Who was more incompetent Walton or Herm? That is a great question...wiht a complicated answer. Truth is, they both were very incomplete coaches who underachived with a LOT of talent. Walton- Brilliant offensvie mind. Terrific X and O coach on offense. Wonderful teacher. problem is most of thse accolades were when he was a OC not a HC. As a HC, he became too preictable but the myth that he was too conservative is just that. Just look at our wide open offenses of the mid 80s for proof of that. waltons problem was that he was a horrid motivator and his teams hated him. The inspiration the team got was from their hatred of him and from lockeroom leaders like Klecko, Fields and Lyons. Walton was also far too concerned wioht hiring friends (see Bratkowski, Kotite, Gardi etc) rather then solid coaches (wiht the lone exception of Bud carson) and Walton was VERY prone to throwing players (see post 1983) and coaches (see post 1984) under the bus to save his own ass. In his defense, Walton was the vicitim of Mike Hickey and some of the worst drafting in jets hisotry between 1985 and 1987 so by the time 1989 rolled around, the team talent level was nil, they went 4-12 and he got canned. Herm- Very good motivator wiht absolutely NO clue as to x and o and starategic football. Relied heavily on his cordinators but then tossed them under the bus when things went wrong. Not a good teacher. Awful, bordering on useless on game day. And despite his reputation as a great motivator, his teams never really kicked it into high gear untiltheir backs were against the wall (see 2001, 2002) and/or lost SVEREAL big games against bad teams late i the year (see Buf in 2001, Chi in 2002, Rams in 2004). When everything was clicking right, the jets could win under Herm. However, if anything went wrong, his fire and brimstone BS was not enough to compensate and bring the team back. Who did less with more? Tough call Walton- Inhertied an AFC Championship team but also dismantled a lot of it after a disappointing 1983. Made the playoffs 2 of his first 4 years and if not for being decemated by injury in 1986, may have even gotten to the Super Bowl. Eevn wiht the injuires, the team was a Gastinaeau f-up away from the AFC title game. After that, a severe drop in talent turned them into a below average team. Herm- Despite the jets not making the playoff in the TWO years (1999 they lost their QB and in 2000 went 9-7 after being 9-4), herm inherited a VERY talented team wiht 2 starting calibar QBs, a HOF RB in his prime, an established vet OL, and 4 #1 picks going into their second season along wiht Lav Coles. 2001 was rior to reliagnment where there were 3 wild card teams instead of 2 and the jets were #6 so giving that year t Herm over Walton isnt fair since there were only 2 in his era. In 2002, we snuck in as a 9-7 division winner but did destroy Indy before getting embarassed by oak. 2004? Backed in again but again did go a round before the Pitt debacle. Verdict- They both underachived badly wiht a LOT of talent. I'll give the edge to Joe. Walton had the most talented team potentially in jet hstory between 1981 and 1986. When he took over in 1983, the team underachived so he turned the roster over quite a bit. By 1985, they were right back there talent wise yet got bumped in the WC round. By 1987, the team had lost its foundation. Herm had more talent for his overall tenure as HC but Walton had the best teams and didnt do enough wiht them. So, as much as I hate Herm, Walton gets the nod as doing less with more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawn306 Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Well I was going to respond but as usual MSGold is dead on the money with this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSGold12 Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Well I was going to respond but as usual MSGold is dead on the money with this one. Why thank you! How's the collecting? Anything new get uncovered recently? I found a few huddle edited older pre season games. Interested? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawn306 Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Why thank you! How's the collecting? Anything new get uncovered recently? I found a few huddle edited older pre season games. Interested? Haven't really done much at all lately. Check your pm in a few minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMaynard Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Walton is the greatest argument that Phil Jackson has to be good. Having great talent does not automatically win a championship. Klecko, Gastinuea, Lyons, Mehl, Buttle, Powell, Ward, Fields, O'Brien, McNeil, Hector, Harper, Walker, Toon, Shuler, etc... my GOD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Walton is the greatest argument that Phil Jackson has to be good. Having great talent does not automatically win a championship. Klecko, Gastinuea, Lyons, Mehl, Buttle, Powell, Ward, Fields, O'Brien, McNeil, Hector, Harper, Walker, Toon, Shuler, etc... my GOD. Defensive secondary was a huge hole. Darrol Ray will only take you so far. God, I love Derrick Gafney as a 3rd wideout too. Even Bobby Jackson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMaynard Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Defensive secondary was a huge hole. Darrol Ray will only take you so far. God, I love Derrick Gafney as a 3rd wideout too. Even Bobby Jackson. Safety was a little weak, but Bobby Jackson and Jerry Holmes were decent corners. Except against the Miami Marks brothers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Safety was a little weak, but Bobby Jackson and Jerry Holmes were decent corners. Except against the Miami Marks brothers. Remember when Holmes defected to the Generals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSGold12 Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Remember when Holmes defected to the Generals? LOVED Kurt Sohn on those 1985-86 teams. Waltons DBs from 1983-1989 were pretty bad. He did get Holmes back from the USFL but he lost Ray and while BobbY Jackson was a good CB, he could never stay healthy. I always liked Lester Lyels and Harry hamilton though. Both were big hietters. But the likes of Bobby Humphrey and Kerry Glenn at CB always made me shudder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawn306 Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Walton's secondary always seemed to get decimated by injuries every year too. I liked Harry Hamilton though. He got busted open against New England in 1986 and took like 30 something stiches in his forehead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 Remember when Holmes defected to the Generals? I don't think he went to the Generals, I think it was the Pittsburgh Maulers. I had the t-shirt. LOVED Kurt Sohn on those 1985-86 teams. Waltons DBs from 1983-1989 were pretty bad. He did get Holmes back from the USFL but he lost Ray and while BobbY Jackson was a good CB, he could never stay healthy. I always liked Lester Lyels and Harry hamilton though. Both were big hietters. But the likes of Bobby Humphrey and Kerry Glenn at CB always made me shudder. Bobby Jackson was good. The Dominator doesn't get a mention? Russell was very good, but always hurt. He made several plays that kept us in the Browns game in '86. If it weren't for Carter we would have lost in regulation. He had a ton of leg injuries, hamstrings I think, so he never lived up to his potential. Harry Hamilton's cousin Neil coaches over here. Good guy. Played on Penn St with Blair Thomas, he was a transfer from Miami of Ohio. He had a cup of coffee with Detroit, but I guess he was kind of an LB/S tweener. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
124 Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 Christ from the sounds of it I'm glad I didn't live through the Walton days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNorth09 Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 Rich Kotite is the greatest Jets coach of all time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awats Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 Last week had a nostalgia post (good and bad) on Mark Gastineau. Some still have resentment toward Joe Walton for not taking us to a Super Bowl, considering what he had to work with. Who was more incompetent Walton or Herm? Joe Walton, by a mile and a half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi_Jet1121 Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 Mangini in 06 we were supose to be 4-12 that season and were 10-6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 Mangini in 06 we were supose to be 4-12 that season and were 10-6. That sort of gets negated when we were supposed to be 10-6 last year and ended up 4-12. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetsMan57 Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 Agreed. Put it this way-the 1986 team started 10-1, and Walton pretty much shat the bed from there. Even then, they had no business losing that Gastineau game in Cleveland, and they were a better team than either the Broncos or the Jints. And that was even with Klecko hurt. I dont know Bugg, its tough to say we would have beaten the Giants. Their defense in 86 was off the charts and winning playoff games against the Niners and Skins who were exchanging super bowls in the 80's is nothing to sneeze at. Have to respect the Tuna/Belly factor too. We definitely give them a better game than the Broncos, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn31 Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 On 3/27/2008 at 5:03 PM, shawn306 said: Walton's secondary always seemed to get decimated by injuries every year too. I liked Harry Hamilton though. He got busted open against New England in 1986 and took like 30 something stiches in his forehead. Giving this a BUMP 9 years later and couldn’t care less In reference to the bold text, I remember reading an excerpt a couple years ago, I want to say it was NOSE TO NOSE, and in it one of the front 7 guys from that era (I want to say Buttle) actually talks about this. IIRC, he said that Walton didn't know how to manage their health, he was probably a little too old school ("We're gonna hit as much as we can dammit") and by the end of the season, guys were physically so worn down. He emphasised that Walton's physical style took the most out of the DBs, saying something to the effect of "You have 180-200 lb guys taking on fullbacks and O Lineman in live situations from Tuesday to Friday, from the beginning of camp all the way into November, December, well your DBs will be ground down to an injury prone husk come gameday." Obviously I'm paraphrasing but if anyone else recalls the quote it'd be great if you can share. Point is Walton was an idiot. Point is Herm proved to be just as much a fool 2 decades later. I'll go with Walton as the bigger waster though, Herm could actually string together a couple wins in December. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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