WIZARD OF OZ Mafia Game Thread

[Dan.]

Dude what are you talking about?? I spent over an hour re-reading Lily and pasting all those quotes. Just because I'm not calling her names doesn't mean I'm not being aggressive.

I am really conflicted about your case on Lily because on the one hand, so many things she does/says come across as scummy. On the other hand, if you're scum it seems really easy to pull up any number of quotes on her and push a case without having to come across as too "aggressive". Naeann's comment about having to hold you back in the Predators QT struck me because there was definitely a difference between your more reasoned approach in the game thread versus the quick thread. I'm interested to see what comes of both sides of this coin.

[Sharrow]

My god, these colored fonts are giving me headache. Haha.

wait until someone makes a long case post for me.

[Dan.]

wait until someone makes a long case post for me.

Haha, that was just evil. My eyes are dying.

[Pac]

I am really conflicted about your case on Lily because on the one hand, so many things she does/says come across as scummy. On the other hand, if you're scum it seems really easy to pull up any number of quotes on her and push a case without having to come across as too "aggressive". Naeann's comment about having to hold you back in the Predators QT struck me because there was definitely a difference between your more reasoned approach in the game thread versus the quick thread. I'm interested to see what comes of both sides of this coin.

Naeann was kidding.... Early in the game when everyone wanted to go bonkers I was the one trying to calm them down. Ask her.

Way to fabricate a case on an easy candidate though. You're either lying or misremembering. I know you read the QT so I'm thinking lying.

[slats]

Again, this is a double contradiction - you can't disagree with me over a point, and then agree with that point.

Wow. You are a living, breathing headache with this double contradiction BS.

My initial point is that you said the scum knew exactly why their NK failed, and that the rest of the town should happily discuss that failed attempt because we might hash out some ideas from it. My take is this:

1.) in my experience, scum generally doesn't know why their NK failed.

2.) I see no benefit from discussing it, because I believe it's more likely that a townie has that info, not scum.

You're fighting the first point pretty strongly, though you're not convincing me. But it's really the second point that caused me to change my vote to you. That seems much more like scum phishing for info that anything else.

Rather than trying to drag me down these peripheral arguments of yours, perhaps you could just simply explain why you feel the town should discuss all the possibilities of why there was no NK last night, and how that will possibly benefit the town. Thanks.

And with 18 people in the game, yoiu think the odds of hitting the doc protecred person are higher than finding one of two Neutrals? Again, your points contradict. meh.

Again, more spinning on your part. There are many different reasons for the lack of a NK last night, and I'm not suggesting that it was any one thing more than another - except that I feel it's highly unlikely that the parameters of a standard conversion game would be in play in this one.

And I promise you that your heh's and meh's aren't scoring you any points around here. If you are town, you might want to tone that crap down, too.

[Jets Voice of Reason]

Care to share your suspect list?

There are still players i have too little info about so it is incomplete. But right now CTM and barm are up there.

CTM has just not been as helpful or proactive as he usually is. I know he's been busy/ drunk on some zima and fruity drinks but i just feel like he's laying bac and going through the motions. He was also on i28 and mostly on jif so far and that's it.

[DPR]

Wow. You are a living, breathing headache with this double contradiction BS.

My initial point is that you said the scum knew exactly why their NK failed, and that the rest of the town should happily discuss that failed attempt because we might hash out some ideas from it. My take is this:

1.) in my experience, scum generally doesn't know why their NK failed.

2.) I see no benefit from discussing it, because I believe it's more likely that a townie has that info, not scum.

You're fighting the first point pretty strongly, though you're not convincing me. But it's really the second point that caused me to change my vote to you. That seems much more like scum phishing for info that anything else.

Rather than trying to drag me down these peripheral arguments of yours, perhaps you could just simply explain why you feel the town should discuss all the possibilities of why there was no NK last night, and how that will possibly benefit the town. Thanks.

Again, more spinning on your part. There are many different reasons for the lack of a NK last night, and I'm not suggesting that it was any one thing more than another - except that I feel it's highly unlikely that the parameters of a standard conversion game would be in play in this one.

And I promise you that your heh's and meh's aren't scoring you any points around here. If you are town, you might want to tone that crap down, too.

Now you're just flailing.

You started this mess by voting me, so I've responded. And I've offered you ample opportunity accept our differences of opinion and to let phrasing just be phrasing.

But you're hell bent on pushing the point, so go for it. I don't really care - I think that our dustup is just making people tired of reading.

But I do have to wonder why Pac was all over my scene, and then disappeared, only to have you show up and try another angle on me.

That makes me wonder a lot.

Vote Pac for attacking me, then fading away.

Fos on Slats for picking up the attack with a weak argument. heh

[Dan.]

Naeann was kidding.... Early in the game when everyone wanted to go bonkers I was the one trying to calm them down. Ask her.

Way to fabricate a case on an easy candidate though. You're either lying or misremembering. I know you read the QT so I'm thinking lying.

With multiple people commenting on how you seemed less aggressive this game, it made sense to me when I thought about how your overall attitude towards the game and talking about people was more aggressive off-thread versus much more balanced and reasoned in the game thread. I'll admit I only remembered Hess and somebody else wanting to shoot more than others did, so I shouldn't have taken Naeann's word for that. Haha, believe me, there's no point for me to lie about something that could so easily be checked. I'll unvote you for right now, though, since that was one of the factors that swayed me.

[Sharrow]

All these cases are interesting imo; the game has definitely picked up steam. I'm not sure when the last time I've seen Pac play like this, he's not usually the person who tries to lead the game around, usually he's one of the ones going against the grain. I don't know what that means.

Lily's style seems the same, but the feel is a little different for me. I had a good feeling about her last game and was right, but I've got a bad feeling this game. She's been a little too dismissive, imo.

DPR seems to be manipulating as usual. Not sure if it's just reactionary for him while defending himself though. I think I'll go with my gut for now.

unvote

vote: Lily

[Pac]

Vote Pac for attacking me, then fading away.

Fading away? I'm right here. Slats seems to be handling you quite nicely so I moved on to Lily who is at the top of my list.

If it makes you feel better you're #2 and I'll have no qualms with squashing you if it comes to that.

[slats]

Now you're just flailing.

You started this mess by voting me, so I've responded. And I've offered you ample opportunity accept our differences of opinion and to let phrasing just be phrasing.

But you're hell bent on pushing the point, so go for it. I don't really care - I think that our dustup is just making people tired of reading.

But I do have to wonder why Pac was all over my scene, and then disappeared, only to have you show up and try another angle on me.

That makes me wonder a lot.

Vote Pac for attacking me, then fading away.

Fos on Slats for picking up the attack with a weak argument. heh

So you can't explain why it's beneficial to the town to kick around ideas as to why there was no NK after originally suggesting that would be a good thing.

Okay, got it.

[Naeann]

Naeann was kidding.... Early in the game when everyone wanted to go bonkers I was the one trying to calm them down. Ask her.

Way to fabricate a case on an easy candidate though. You're either lying or misremembering. I know you read the QT so I'm thinking lying.

Yush. I was. I said just before that that I see him going strongly enough at Lily. He's certainly not acting like a tame little kitten.

[Lily]

PAC I like the points you make on Lily its basicly the same Points I made about Bleedin last game and no one seemed to jump on and vote with me. Maybe I should have pushed a bit more like your doing here.

Im going to Vote Lily and see what kind of response it gets.

The only response I

[Naeann]

And holy what the hell DPR? You are going so strongly against Slats and then out of left field you vote for Pac but keep a FOS on Slats so you don't look stupid for having argued with him for 5 pages?

[Smashmouth]

The only response I

[Lily]

The response I have for you is, deal with PAC. I was not the one asking the questions, I was simply observing the back and forth between you and PAC.

Okay. Fair enough. Pac, got anything else for me? Or the same stuff over again?

[Smashmouth]

And holy what the hell DPR? You are going so strongly against Slats and then out of left field you vote for Pac but keep a FOS on Slats so you don't look stupid for having argued with him for 5 pages?

I do not understand DPR's playstyle, hes crazier than me.

[Dan.]

Yush. I was. I said just before that that I see him going strongly enough at Lily. He's certainly not acting like a tame little kitten.

Got it.

The response I have for you is, deal with PAC. I was not the one asking the questions, I was simply observing the back and forth between you and PAC.

Haha!

[Dan.]

The only response I

[Lily]

My question would be, what was really up with the "freebie" comment? It's probably the thing that stood out to me more than the other things, which I can see as being exactly the same as the last game. Can you clarify what you meant by it, and what do you think about Naeann's points below?

Everybody is trying to figure out when I'm town and when I'm scum. I was helping. Nothing more. Nothing less. I'm sick and tired of being told I seem scummy, with no specifics, just "act scummy" so I'm trying to help y'all see the difference. I think now I've figured some of it out, tho.

I don't know what to say to Nae on those. I don't play exactly the same as any alignment. I TRY to, certainly. Don't we all? I have tells same as everybody else does. If I find one out, I eliminate it, if I can. That's how everyone should try to play, imo. At least that's how I was taught.

Nae, I didn't have everyone fooled in LOST. They had another agenda to keeping me alive. THAT was humbling, to say the least. My ego has yet to recover. And confusion is never an act with me. I have said before I don't use RL stuff to manipulate. I confuse easily at times. Hence, I never act confused.

I'm out for a while - few hours at least, I think. If I missed something, please ask it again.

[SMC]

OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT--DAY 2

DPR (4) -- Barm, Runin, Verbal, Slats

Smash (2) -- JVOR, Vicious

Lily (4) -- Pac, Smash, Nae, Sharrow

JiF (1) -- CTM

Pac (3) -- JiF, Lily, DPR

With 18 Ozites in the Castle, it takes 10 to lynch.

[AVM]

I'm back, trying to catch up when I can between fixing dinner and unpacking.

[DPR]

Fading away? I'm right here. Slats seems to be handling you quite nicely so I moved on to Lily who is at the top of my list.

If it makes you feel better you're #2 and I'll have no qualms with squashing you if it comes to that.

You let up your attack, and Slats stepped in. That's how it felt to me, and since I'm the one getting attacked, I think I'll go with my opinion. Since we were tied for votes though, it makes sense to have a teammate come in and vote me to lead. It just makes you to look scummy.

So you can't explain why it's beneficial to the town to kick around ideas as to why there was no NK after originally suggesting that would be a good thing.

Okay, got it.

I thought I already did explain it - which is what we've argued about all day?

I figure the mafia knows perfectly well why there was no NK, so we are in no danger of giving them any info by figuring it out. I gave a nice long explanantion, but I'll have to go back a find it.

You can use the time to figure out how you are going to spin this post.

And holy what the hell DPR? You are going so strongly against Slats and then out of left field you vote for Pac but keep a FOS on Slats so you don't look stupid for having argued with him for 5 pages?

Actually, so far, I've been attacked by Verbal, a little by Barm, a lot by Runin, and so far durig D2, Pac and Slats.

Out of all of them, I feel like Pac is the scummiest. Mostly because he jumped in to attack me, and then faded away, but also becuase he spent time attacking me but voted Lily.

What else do you want me to do? And why didn't you criticize him for doing the same thing?

[Barmacral]

Heh, so I am about one commercial break away from watching the end of the Wizard of Oz. Just thought I'd share.

[Naeann]

You let up your attack, and Slats stepped in. That's how it felt to me, and since I'm the one getting attacked, I think I'll go with my opinion. Since we were tied for votes though, it makes sense to have a teammate come in and vote me to lead. It just makes you to look scummy.

I thought I already did explain it - which is what we've argued about all day?

I figure the mafia knows perfectly well why there was no NK, so we are in no danger of giving them any info by figuring it out. I gave a nice long explanantion, but I'll have to go back a find it.

You can use the time to figure out how you are going to spin this post.

Actually, so far, I've been attacked by Verbal, a little by Barm, a lot by Runin, and so far durig D2, Pac and Slats.

Out of all of them, I feel like Pac is the scummiest. Mostly because he jumped in to attack me, and then faded away, but also becuase he spent time attacking me but voted Lily.

What else do you want me to do? And why didn't you criticize him for doing the same thing?

Show me the jump in and fade away spots... I've seen him mostly after Lily both today and yesterday game wise. I see you gunning after Slats over about 5 pages and suddenly out of no where you throw a vote on Pac. He may have been one of your suspicions and all but why all the nonesense with Slats then?

Why didn't I criticize him too? Because like I said.. he's been pretty clear on his thoughts on Lily all along. He wasn't saying god bob is such an ******* he just irritates me bob this bob that... hmm Sue is scum! If you show me where he did that I'll ... kiss your feet and get onto Pac too. Darn fickle men.

[DPR]

Heh, so I am about one commercial break away from watching the end of the Wizard of Oz. Just thought I'd share.

*PSST* Dude, you're not supposed to heh anymore.

And I promise you that your heh's and meh's aren't scoring you any points around here. If you are town, you might want to tone that crap down, too.

[DPR]

Show me the jump in and fade away spots... I've seen him mostly after Lily both today and yesterday game wise. I see you gunning after Slats over about 5 pages and suddenly out of no where you throw a vote on Pac. He may have been one of your suspicions and all but why all the nonesense with Slats then?

Why didn't I criticize him too? Because like I said.. he's been pretty clear on his thoughts on Lily all along. He wasn't saying god bob is such an ******* he just irritates me bob this bob that... hmm Sue is scum! If you show me where he did that I'll ... kiss your feet and get onto Pac too. Darn fickle men.

Go back another 5 pages and you'll see where Pac was all over me for the should/shouldn't thing...

He was on it, we had out dustup, then he ignored me worse than a hobo at a debutante ball. Shortly after, Mr. Slats stepped in and started his attack.

And, seriously, do I play so weird that I get 5 players attacking me by D2 for what I would consider to be fairly weak reasons? I gotta up my mafia insurance policy. Sheesh.

[Pac]

Go back another 5 pages and you'll see where Pac was all over me for the should/shouldn't thing...

He was on it, we had out dustup, then he ignored me worse than a hobo at a debutante ball. Shortly after, Mr. Slats stepped in and started his attack.

And, seriously, do I play so weird that I get 5 players attacking me by D2 for what I would consider to be fairly weak reasons? I gotta up my mafia insurance policy. Sheesh.

Your mischaracterization of the exchange is comical... she doesn't have to go back I'll pull it up for her.. give me a few.

[AVM]

Thoughts from where I'm at:

--Good to see we made it through the night unscathed, especially after losing 2(with one power) d1.

--While I'm still about a day and a half behind, DPR is probably my top guy coming into the day, especially on the heels of the end of D1.

--Understand going after inactives, as I used to be one of if not the biggest supporters of the strategy. As for me(slats mentioned I'm usually in the middle of post counts, which is true), like I said pre-game I had the wedding/festivities and my last post-op last week, so it's a slow start for me. I start working this week, but not as many hours as usually obviously. So my activity gets a jump in the coming days

[Pac]

First time I mentioned you... I was acknowledging Runnins case and threw in a point of my own... In that very same post I voted Lily.. This effectively obliterates the notion I was "all over you then jumped to Lily".

Interesting stuff Runnin... It didn't go unnoticed that he was an aggressive force in the I28 lynch while trying to give the impression he was an impartial observer...

also stands to reason that with his massive ego he'd think he was good enough to push the lynch along and stifle any suspicion that came his way as a result.

but for the record Lily did the exact same thing... and the timing of her vote was very important as with a deadline approaching it all but sealed the fact I28 was going to be a strong lynch candidate.

please Lily.. I implore you... don't suggest that my suspicion has anything to do with whatever personal stuff supposedly happened earlier on.. I'm oblivious to it (really). I'm on you because you and now DPR have both have done a few slight of hand tricks that are scummy in appearance.

Here I was replying to Bleedin when he mentioned it was interesting there was no NK.

I saw that... a few things could have happened but I didn't see a benefit to discussing what those might be.

I wouldn't think we're playing another game where scum have to "earn" their kill though.

This had nothing to do with you but you decided to chime in with:

Why mention this if you don't think we should discuss it?

I wasn't interested in debating you on the topic so I tried to end it with:

Because you and others have successfully crippled towns with outlandish theories. I was trying to do my part to stop that from happening.

As far as I was concerned I was done discussing it but then you decided to get cute and:

Why are you accusing me of "slight of hand"?

You posted, above, that you did notice that there was no nightkill (as did everyone) but that you didn't see a benefit to discussing it.

Then you go on to discuss it, by saying you doubt that the scum have to earn their nightkill.

Being confused about the pupose of saying any of that at all, I posted "Why post this?"

I wasn't leading you, or trying to frame you. I could have posted:

1. We all noticed that there was no NK. You putting it into words raises flags with me because it is redundant, which is sometimes a tell for somone that is trying to sound innocent.

2.Then you say that you don't see a benefit to discussing it. Why?

I can see the logic of not discussing the game setup on D1 - you don't want the town to slip and give the mafia any info.

But why not discuss thta there was no NK? The mafia already know exactly why, so the town won't gve them any info. And, the speculation might well lead to combination of ideas, or cause a mafia to slip up.

IMO, speculation about the lack of an NK can be good.

3. Even after you just said you didn't think we should discuss it, you throw in a little discussion about how you doubt the scum have to earn their NK.

So you are encouraging people not to discuss it, but you wanted to make sure that no one though that the scum would have to earn their NK?

The entire post was either redundant, or contradictory. So I asked why you posted it.

You reply with a remark about how myslef and others have crippled the town with outlandsih theories - okay, but that's not happening in this game, is it?

Then you accuse me of slight of hand because I said what I meant.

So, at this point, I have to ask what you think of the points I've just made, and ask why you did that. No slight of hand - just straight forward questions.

wasn't sure why you were belaboring what I thought was a pretty easy point to understand. I tried again to end it with:

What is this gobbledygook? Does this nonsense usually fluster your competition?

There could have been a role block, doc protect, 1 time vest, etc. I fail to see the reason to try and narrow down those choices for scum. Let them try and guess what happened.

I let you have the last word with:

This just struck me as odd - Slats doesn't really sneak around in the shadows (at least not in my experience) and although he did not clog the game up with spam and jokes, I don't find him to be underposting.

I'm not saying I have a read on way or the other on Slats, but I'm finding it strange the Pac keeps going after people that question him.

Could just be me, but that's the first thought I had while I read it the post.

and there it was... bear in mind while that went on ALL my other posts were about my case on Lily.. I was only addressing you because you kept quoting me looking for a fight.

I would hardly classify this exchange as "me being all over you then switching to Lily".

You keep digging a bigger hole with every post.

[Pac]

bah.. edit to above. I didn't "vote lily" in that first post but I focused on her and voted shortly there after.

[Pac]

Show me the jump in and fade away spots... I've seen him mostly after Lily both today and yesterday game wise. I see you gunning after Slats over about 5 pages and suddenly out of no where you throw a vote on Pac. He may have been one of your suspicions and all but why all the nonesense with Slats then?

because at this point it's much easier to get me lynched then Slats... plus it's fun to vote for me weeeeeeee.

This afternoon he has become 1A to Lily's 1. Both need to die.

[DPR]

Why go to all of the trouble of trying to make me look like the aggressor, when you brought up points against me first?

You try and paint it like I was on the offensive - but I had just finished fighting off Runin, and Verbal, so I guess I wasn't enthused about somebody else taking a crappy pot shot at me.

But, you decided to take that crappy pot shot anyway, so I defended.

I'll tell you what, so that we can all save posts and reading time, I'll ask that everyone with a case against me go ahead and use the convenient "bullet-point" style.

You list your reasons, and I'll answer them to the best of my ability. I'll try to keep the sarcasm low, but I can't gaurantee that a "heh" or a "meh" won't slip out. If you have problems with that, I'm sure that they are running very exciting and sensitive games over at www.OPRAH.com.

[DPR]

because at this point it's much easier to get me lynched then Slats... plus it's fun to vote for me weeeeeeee.

This afternoon he has become 1A to Lily's 1. Both need to die.

Yeah, she knew that one. Nae feigning like she "does'nt understand" my move is not a good sign.

Darlin', I'm surprised you even posted that.

[Pac]

Why go to all of the trouble of trying to make me look like the aggressor, when you brought up points against me first?

You try and paint it like I was on the offensive - but I had just finished fighting off Runin, and Verbal, so I guess I wasn't enthused about somebody else taking a crappy pot shot at me.

But, you decided to take that crappy pot shot anyway, so I defended.

You're making this easy... You didn't "defend" the initial pot shot as you suggest. I don't recall you addressing the point about your actions surrounding the I28 lynch at all.

You quoted my response to Bleedin and tried to pick a fight over semantics. That's not "defending"... that's instigating an argument.

I still haven't heard anyone but you suggest that discussing what may have happened on N1 is a good idea.