Eli is a better QB than his brother

[JonEJet]

I'm more concerned with how they fix the defense.

Rex has proven his defenses alone can keep a team competitive.....time for some new blood back there

[ZachEY]

I think the X factor will be how sensitive Rex is to having his first really bad off-season where he's being treated like a clown everywhere he goes. I dont think he's going to let Sanchez let him look like a jackass again for too long. That leash is going to be short, IMO, and he'll want a Plan B for if/when Sanchez starts sulking. Now, we'll see who Tannenbaum sides with if it comes down to protecting his coach's image by admitting that Sanchez wasn't a good pick by bringing in a real, live QB to threaten him. The day that Sanchez gets benched will be a rough one for Tanny's résumé.

Here's what scares me. The locker room obviously looks shaky already. Can you bring in a real plan B right now? Let's say it's Jason Campbell. There's a pretty good chance Campbell looks better than him in TC. They're still going to start Sanchez. How long until disaster when the best QB isn't playing to protect Tanny's job and Rex's ego?

[T0mShane]

Here's what scares me. The locker room obviously looks shaky already. Can you bring in a real plan B right now? Let's say it's Jason Campbell. There's a pretty good chance Campbell looks better than him in TC. They're still going to start Sanchez. How long until disaster when the best QB isn't playing to protect Tanny's job and Rex's ego?

See, I think that's the thing. Rex is going into his 4th year where he either puts up or ends up on the hot seat because of a quarterback that he obviously has no love for. If it comes down to it, I think Rex will throw whoever he has to down the well in order to save himself, starting with Sanchez and Tannenbaum. If Campbell (or Henne, or Hasselbeck) comes here and shows that they'll move the team consistently without turning it over, it's adios Sanchez as early as training camp. Add in the fact that Sparano seems to hate young QBs as well, and the deck is stacked against Sanchez as if right now. Of course, Mark could always show up and prove that he's 100% better than he's shown....

[ZachEY]

See, I think that's the thing. Rex is going into his 4th year where he either puts up or ends up on the hot seat because of a quarterback that he obviously has no love for. If it comes down to it, I think Rex will throw whoever he has to down the well in order to save himself, starting with Sanchez and Tannenbaum. If Campbell (or Henne, or Hasselbeck) comes here and shows that they'll move the team consistently without turning it over, it's adios Sanchez as early as training camp. Add in the fact that Sparano seems to hate young QBs as well, and the deck is stacked against Sanchez as if right now. Of course, Mark could always show up and prove that he's 100% better than he's shown....

I'm not sure I believe Rex has that luxury. I could see him overruled. Further, I'm not sure Tannenbaum brings anyone real in, for just that reason. I bet we find ourselves with Sage Rosenfels or something like that rather than someone who might present a real challenge.

[T0mShane]

I'm not sure I believe Rex has that luxury. I could see him overruled. Further, I'm not sure Tannenbaum brings anyone real in, for just that reason. I bet we find ourselves with Sage Rosenfels or something like that rather than someone who might present a real challenge.

As a fan of chaos, I'd love nothing more than an all-out Rex v. Tannenbaum war. If Tannenbaum leaves Rex naked at the QB spot this Spring, you can guarantee that "anonymous sources" will fill up the papers all summer long talking about how putrid Sanchez's mental fortitude is and how much Rex "secretly" wanted to bring in a Plan B but was denied by the evil accountant. Jet life, baby.

[ZachEY]

As a fan of chaos, I'd love nothing more than an all-out Rex v. Tannenbaum war. If Tannenbaum leaves Rex naked at the QB spot this Spring, you can guarantee that "anonymous sources" will fill up the papers all summer long talking about how putrid Sanchez's mental fortitude is and how much Rex "secretly" wanted to bring in a Plan B but was denied by the evil accountant. Jet life, baby.

Why are you so confident Rex doesn't think he can win with Sanchez though?

[dbatesman]

résumé.

Gay.

[T0mShane]

Why are you so confident Rex doesn't think he can win with Sanchez though?

Because he talks about Sanchez the same way he talked about Kerry Rhodes and Braylon Edwards.

[T0mShane]

Gay.

Autocorrect! Autocorrect!

[ZachEY]

Gay.

Would you prefer curriculum vitae?

[SenorGato]

Right coaching staff for his skillset. Its almost that simple. Guy was a great down the field passer from the first day and they surrounded him with the appropriate talent. They had his possession guy in Toomer who had great hands to catch Elis flutter balls, and brought in Burress to go down the field and go up and get everything. They had the perfect replacement for Toomer in Steve Smith and went out and drafted a home run hitter in Nicks once Burress shot himself out of town. They always get these big tight ends with good hands, rather than the basketball skillset guy that isnt a football player. Cruz was a fluke and Im sure the only reason they even kept him around last season was because he had speed.

The staff calls it perfect for him. You dont see them running 5 yard slants with Eli and a big pass or two thrown in. Its all downfield first and the short stuff worked in later on, because thats what fits him. If you put Manning in the offense the Jets ran these last few years you would never get this. It doesnt match what he can do. It also helps that the guy is completely ignorant of the media and doesnt care what they think. Its like he is oblivious to criticism.

I have to question this a little bit:

1 - Does not every team want to build their offense like that? I mean, ideally you have the big yard/big play guy at one WR spot with the other outside WR being a more slow and steady typeThat does not sound like they did anything different than what anyone else hopes to do (the special aspect being that they got it done). They even tried for that H-back/non-traditonal type TE with what's his name...Beckum? Beckum, yah.

2 - Do you really believe the Jets would run such a conservative pass offense like that if a real, bonafide in his prime star NFL QB ran the offense? I do not buy it for a second.

I have my own theory but it's not a concrete idea yet:

1. Eli's QB coach as a rookie is now his offensive coordinator. That's definitely a part of it, no doubt on this for me.

2. Eli is now in his prime years as an athlete. He's still got those same physical tools he was drafted for, but he also has the savvy of a guy who's been around and seen some sh*t because he has ('11 being his 8th NFL season).

3. He's been pushing it since '08. '09 might have been an elite season if he did not fumble and lose it so often.

[RutgersJetFan]

As a fan of chaos, I'd love nothing more than an all-out Rex v. Tannenbaum war. If Tannenbaum leaves Rex naked at the QB spot this Spring, you can guarantee that "anonymous sources" will fill up the papers all summer long talking about how putrid Sanchez's mental fortitude is and how much Rex "secretly" wanted to bring in a Plan B but was denied by the evil accountant. Jet life, baby.

Good God man, a believer in Occam's Razor you are not.

[RutgersJetFan]

Would you prefer curriculum vitae?

BIG WORDS. BIG WORDS. THIS IS OFFENSIVE TO THE MAX.

[jason423]

I have to question this a little bit:

1 - Does not every team want to build their offense like that? I mean, ideally you have the big yard/big play guy at one WR spot with the other outside WR being a more slow and steady typeThat does not sound like they did anything different than what anyone else hopes to do (the special aspect being that they got it done). They even tried for that H-back/non-traditonal type TE with what's his name...Beckum? Beckum, yah.

2 - Do you really believe the Jets would run such a conservative pass offense like that if a real, bonafide in his prime star NFL QB ran the offense? I do not buy it for a second.

I have my own theory but it's not a concrete idea yet:

1. Eli's QB coach as a rookie is now his offensive coordinator. That's definitely a part of it, no doubt on this for me.

2. Eli is now in his prime years as an athlete. He's still got those same physical tools he was drafted for, but he also has the savvy of a guy who's been around and seen some sh*t because he has ('11 being his 8th NFL season).

3. He's been pushing it since '08. '09 might have been an elite season if he did not fumble and lose it so often.

I dont think all teams have been built that way. Our team wasnt and it wasnt built that way with Favre either. Its probably about 50/50. There are still teams that are built to play conservative football. The 49ers are built that way. The Ravens have been built that way for years. Im not a big fan of drafting WRs but the Jets have practically avoided them like the plague (Kerley was the highest pick since J-Co was taken in the 4th round in 2004 unless you want to count Brad Smith as a WR). In the same time the Giants have drafted 6 in the first 3 rounds.

Plus its a way of calling a game. The Giants have called the passing game like that for Eli since the day he got there. We had Sanchez do that in 2010, when the team was built more for that skillset, but we retreated badly in 2011 and that was due to personnel decisions and coaching. The Giants play deep ball and they have done that for years now. The Jets play WCO style football with receivers who dont have great hands.

[Blackout]

I have to question this a little bit:

1 - Does not every team want to build their offense like that? I mean, ideally you have the big yard/big play guy at one WR spot with the other outside WR being a more slow and steady typeThat does not sound like they did anything different than what anyone else hopes to do (the special aspect being that they got it done). They even tried for that H-back/non-traditonal type TE with what's his name...Beckum? Beckum, yah.

2 - Do you really believe the Jets would run such a conservative pass offense like that if a real, bonafide in his prime star NFL QB ran the offense? I do not buy it for a second.

I have my own theory but it's not a concrete idea yet:

1. Eli's QB coach as a rookie is now his offensive coordinator. That's definitely a part of it, no doubt on this for me.

2. Eli is now in his prime years as an athlete. He's still got those same physical tools he was drafted for, but he also has the savvy of a guy who's been around and seen some sh*t because he has ('11 being his 8th NFL season).

3. He's been pushing it since '08. '09 might have been an elite season if he did not fumble and lose it so often.

I met Eli and Pennington back in 2005....they were both laughing at how Shockey got into a fight at training camp earlier that day.

At least one of them turned into a winner

[SenorGato]

I dont think all teams have been built that way. Our team wasnt and it wasnt built that way with Favre either. Its probably about 50/50. There are still teams that are built to play conservative football. The 49ers are built that way. The Ravens have been built that way for years. Im not a big fan of drafting WRs but the Jets have practically avoided them like the plague (Kerley was the highest pick since J-Co was taken in the 4th round in 2004 unless you want to count Brad Smith as a WR). In the same time the Giants have drafted 6 in the first 3 rounds.

Plus its a way of calling a game. The Giants have called the passing game like that for Eli since the day he got there. We had Sanchez do that in 2010, when the team was built more for that skillset, but we retreated badly in 2011 and that was due to personnel decisions and coaching. The Giants play deep ball and they have done that for years now. The Jets play WCO style football with receivers who dont have great hands.

Blech I ruined my own post with a deletion...See why I disagree with you on the Jets pulling that same crap they did with Sanchez with a real QB is because of where the Jets' previous OC came from. The Chargers were balls in on a Coryell style passing game, and the Jets went out and got one of those guys. They wanted one of those guys because they wanted that offense because they saw the success other teams were having with it. I'm sure part of that want was rooted in the previous OCs having uber-conservative reputations here, but lets ignore that and consider that they actively pursued and hired someone from a system known for aggressively passing the ball downfield. They paid 50 million + trade cost to get a QB in the top 5 of the draft. They took a kid from a school that works in a similarly aggressive downfield passing system. I think you said that the Jets built their offense to hide Sanchez. There would be no need to do that with a QB like Eli Manning. The Jets WANTED that offense. They probably still do, but their confidence in having it has been Sanchez'd. Hopefully he can cut the bs next year and we'll see the passing game evolve towards that, and hopefully that evolution is quick.

Oh, and the Giants do throw plenty of short stuff with Eli. He, just like any pass worth his salt throughout history, just can work beyond that range consistently and comfortably.

As far as your points here:

Agreed that all teams have not been built that way, but disagree that that is due to philosophy (for the most part). It's mostly due to reality where players age, players bust, players get hurt, and so on. For instance, in THEORY the Jets this year would have had Holmes (the playmaker), Burress (the possession guy)...The only real difference is the TE thing, and since it's you I'm speaking to I assume you remember that they were pretty high on Mulligan as an all 'round guy for a while before this season...Keller being way better than Beckum....Hell, even the 49ers...Crabtree was SUPPOSED to be the #1 guy with Josh Morgan as the Steady Freddie on the other side...Davis has probably been the best all around TE in the game the past two years, and he was a devastating run blocker before he broke out as a pass catcher..I think their thing is...and notice that the Jets and Ravens joined the comparison...I think the thing between those teams and teams built like them is that they don't trust the QB and rely more on the defense than on the offense...The Ravens have Smith (first round WR/big play guy), Boldin (long time top tier possession WR), and Dickson/Pitta working the TE spot....The cool thing about the Giants is that all of their WRs can move around, but even then Holmes, Crabtree, and Boldin can do that too...I think we'll see the Jets start drafting WRs when they think they have QB who will stick around (unless a talent on par with either Johnson fell to them)...Hell, if Jeffery falls to the 2nd this year (or clears it up and jumps back into the firsT) we might even see it this year...Basically, I think Eli has just become a master of his craft through years of working at it and experiencing it...I think the Giants as an organization have had the cajones to stick with his two main coaches the whole time (despite having plenty of fan reason to fire them)...I think those two factors have played significantly into the fact that young guys can come in and develop without the weight of the world being thrown at them (there's always Coughlin, Eli, and Gilbride to eat the team's offensive bullets).

So I just rambled away like that and then it hit me that they switched out the possession WR (one mortal) for a more Patriots/Eagles/Saints/Packers/Steelers?/Chargers-esque spread out passing game with one stud that stabilizies (Welker/Jackson/Colston/Jennings/Wallace/Jackson/Nicks) the WR corps while they pile up guys behind that guy who can catch the passes the stud QB doesn't throw to stud WR. Funnily enough...the drafting of Kerley in the same offseason as looking up Holmes says the Jets are thinkiing about headnig down that route if their QB helps them get there.

As far as how they call the game...IMO any team with a passer worth his salt is consistently taking shots in the intermediate to deep range...It's a universal trait amongst teams with a legit franchise QB.

[Jared]

Back to the original point about Eli: I have to admit, he has performed way better this year than I ever gave him credit for in the past. He may not ever break any records as long as guys like Brady, Brees, etc, keep setting them, but he will be a very good QB for a while.

[Blackout]

Back to the original point about Eli: I have to admit, he has performed way better this year than I ever gave him credit for in the past. He may not ever break any records as long as guys like Brady, Brees, etc, keep setting them, but he will be a very good QB for a while.

and he beat them gay patriots in the SB

[Irish Jet]

He managed to beat the Rodgers, The Packers and the refs. I was very impressed. If he wins another Superbowl he's a HOF QB for sure. Always has been underrated.

[jack48]

Eli has had 3 one and done in playoffs.

In fairness, Peyton never had as much talent around him on offense and defense as Eli. Him getting the lame Colts to the playoffs every year was equivalent to pulling a semi down the road with his teeth. Eli won the game yesterday, in my book. But Green Bay did a lot to lose it. Eli is better NOW.

[GimmeShelter]

Peyton is better....much better. How quickly we forget.

That said Eli has moved up among the games current QB's.

Remember how the majority opinion was that the Giants got taken to the cleaners on the draft day trade for Eli?

[Savage69]

well he had over 30 TDs and lead his team to 10 wins and threw for over 4K yards

who was awful last year? alex smith

31 tds 25 picks and 7 fumbles to be exact..

[CTM]

Nah. He wasnt great but he was by no means awful. He was still an above average player. His picks were like the opposite of the Sanchez non-picks that season. Eli had so many passes that were bouncing off guys hands that teams were picking off. Sanchez would throw the ball right to the other team and they would drop it. If not for the meltdown against the Eagles they were going to be 11-5 and win the NFC East. The Steelers were 3-1 without Ben last year and he was just a bystander in the AFC Championship game that the Jets handed to him. Im just not sure if you asked Roethlisberger to carry an offense if he could do it or not for 16 games. He has a perfect marriage in Pittsburgh.

Not sure I agree, big Ben has been better then Eli in terms of DYAR and DVOA in 2 of last 3 years. Even this year was close , particilarly considering the injury that made him a shell of himself the last quarter of season

I think what everyone forgets is that as good as Eli can look sometimes he can look just as bad in other games . Washington and NYJ being the 2 latest examples

[NYGiantFan10]

In fairness, Peyton never had as much talent around him on offense and defense as Eli. Him getting the lame Colts to the playoffs every year was equivalent to pulling a semi down the road with his teeth. Eli won the game yesterday, in my book. But Green Bay did a lot to lose it. Eli is better NOW.

ya ur right, reggie wayne marvin harrison and dallas clark were scrubs on offense

[faba]

Please go to NY Giants website and post this thread

[Smashmouth]

Eli has had 3 one and done in playoffs.

And ?? how many has Peyton had ?

[jack48]

ya ur right, reggie wayne marvin harrison and dallas clark were scrubs on offense

I am talking about winning a SB. As in defense. Peyton's numbers speak for themselves. The SB stuff, you need a whole team for that. Plus, they still let defenders maul receivers back when Harrison played. So Eli has more going for him.

[JustInFudge]

And ?? how many has Peyton had ?

Its not really comparable. Peyton has been playing longer, been to the playoffs more, etc. etc. But, in as many trips, they bot have an equal amount of one and done's. Obviously with Eli winning his SB much sooner.

[Blackout]

Its not really comparable. Peyton has been playing longer, been to the playoffs more, etc. etc. But, in as many trips, they bot have an equal amount of one and done's. Obviously with Eli winning his SB much sooner.

exactly

Eli in the playoffs: 6-3

Peyton: 9-10

[jason423]

Just looked up the postseason success at the same stages and its not even close:

Peyton- 3-6, 4 one and dones, 2-2 at home, 1-4 on the road

Eli- 6-3, 3 one and dones, 1-2 at home, 4-1 on the road, 1-0 on a neutral field

The other big names:

Roethlisberger- 10-4, 2 one and dones, 5-2 home, 3-1 away, 2-1 neutral

Rivers- 3-4, 2-2 home, 1-2 away

Brady is the standard with a 14-3 record, perfect at home, 3-2 on the road and 3-1 on the neutral field. Won a game every time he was in there in his first 8 seasons. Pretty amazing stuff.

[JustInFudge]

Just looked up the postseason success at the same stages and its not even close:

Peyton- 3-6, 4 one and dones, 2-2 at home, 1-4 on the road

Eli- 6-3, 3 one and dones, 1-2 at home, 4-1 on the road, 1-0 on a neutral field

The other big names:

Roethlisberger- 10-4, 2 one and dones, 5-2 home, 3-1 away, 2-1 neutral

Rivers- 3-4, 2-2 home, 1-2 away

Brady is the standard with a 14-3 record, perfect at home, 3-2 on the road and 3-1 on the neutral field. Won a game every time he was in there in his first 8 seasons. Pretty amazing stuff.

Well, there you go. Though I think taking into consideration that the Giants have a considerably better defense and they didnt have to face those Pats dynasty teams is a big factor.

[Jetsfan80]

Well, there you go. Though I think taking into consideration that the Giants have a considerably better defense and they didnt have to face those Pats dynasty teams is a big factor.

Not to mention the league basically reshaped how the game is played because of Ty Law raping Peyton's receivers. Like, literally raping them.

[RutgersJetFan]

Considering how badly Indianapolis fell in the course of one season, or every single statistic ever invented arguing the contrary...

[Jetsfan80]

Considering how badly Indianapolis fell in the course of one season, or every single statistic ever invented arguing the contrary...

Peyton should have won the MVP award every year starting in 2003 and including this year.

[jason423]

Well, there you go. Though I think taking into consideration that the Giants have a considerably better defense and they didnt have to face those Pats dynasty teams is a big factor.

But only 2 of Peytons losses were to the Patriots and none were in the first game. The only bad team Peyton lost to was the Dolphins, but they also had fast exits vs the Titans, Steelers, and of course the Jets. I still cant figure out why he was so poor in the playoffs. He is arguably the best QB of all time and a dud in the playoffs. Only 4 out of 11 times has he advanced beyond his first game. It defies logic.