JohnnyHector Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Giants defense since Week 15 is playing at an elite level. Did you read that on FO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Did you read that on FO? Does it make a difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Does it make a difference? Curiosity, since they highlighted that very fact in today's DVOA ratings article. That's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Curiosity, since they highlighted that very fact in today's DVOA ratings article. That's all. I did...contrary to belief I like FO a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RutgersJetFan Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 If either the 49'ers or Ravens had their own elite, QB, they'd have won handidnly anyway, so it makes the point that way too Know what's funny? Joe Flacco is 2nd only to Tom Brady in wins the past 4 years. Yet plenty here think he sucks and the Ravens would be better off without. Irony. We haz it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason423 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I don't have the 07 stats handy, but Rothlisberger played great during the 05 playoff run (up till the SB), and was enough of an upgrade over Tommy Maddux to instantly turn a 5 win team into a 15 win team, with almost no other changes.. Again, Steelers don't even get in there in 05 without Rothlisbergers ELITE play In 2005? They were 11-5 that year not 15-1. They were 2-0 with Charlie Batch. 0-2 With Tommy Maddox and 9-3 with Big Ben. He only threw for 2400 yards. He was a game manager that got to take a few shots down the field, which he usually connected on. During the huge run to end the year his average stat line was 12.6/20.5/186. Thats Chad. The defense was excellent in that run. Over that backend stretch they allowed under 12 points a game. In Elis stretch, which I put as the last 6 games, 16.8/27.7/203. Team averaged 20.7 allowed, though its only 17.2 if I pull out the week 17 loss to NE. Eli had the far better Super Bowl. Championship games were probably close. Ben may have been better, but the Broncos were overmatched while Eli had a tougher game all day. Either way Im not sure how you look at that as elite, probably in either case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeet Ulrich Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Really? I would have thought two special teams turnovers in the championship game contributed to the loss, also. What, given that one of them was in sudden death... Of course they contributed, no one said they didnt. Aside from two bombs to Vernon Davis Alex Smith threw for 85 yards in an entire game plus OT. The muffed punt and strip wouldn't have mattered if the SF offense had the ability to play. Trying to win games 17-13 all the time is a dangerous gambit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonehands Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Eli looks much better this year than last with a healthy Nicks, a fully developed Cruz, Manningham and tight end threats. You can't be elite without good receivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 In 2005? They were 11-5 that year not 15-1. They were 2-0 with Charlie Batch. 0-2 With Tommy Maddox and 9-3 with Big Ben. He only threw for 2400 yards. He was a game manager that got to take a few shots down the field, which he usually connected on. During the huge run to end the year his average stat line was 12.6/20.5/186. Thats Chad. The defense was excellent in that run. Over that backend stretch they allowed under 12 points a game. In 2004... They were 5-11 or 6-10 in 2003, started 0-1 or 0-2 with Maddox and then basically didn't lose a game until teh AFCC against NE I was talking about the playoff run, where he was phenomenal In Elis stretch, which I put as the last 6 games, 16.8/27.7/203. Team averaged 20.7 allowed, though its only 17.2 if I pull out the week 17 loss to NE. Eli had the far better Super Bowl. Championship games were probably close. Ben may have been better, but the Broncos were overmatched while Eli had a tougher game all day. Either way Im not sure how you look at that as elite, probably in either case. Cause both were early first round picks, who made significant contributions to their runs. The fact that both developed into top 25% of the league QB's is evidence of that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I think honestly what it comes down to....its possible for teams without great QB's to make it to the Super Bowl, as Baltimore and San Fran were basically two plays away from doing that....its just more difficult to maintain regular season success with that model. The most elite QB left standing was anything but yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afosomf Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I think honestly what it comes down to....its possible for teams without great QB's to make it to the Super Bowl, as Baltimore and San Fran were basically two plays away from doing that....its just more difficult to maintain regular season success with that model. The most elite QB left standing was anything but yesterday. Flacco was pretty elite yesterday and should have come away with a victory, cam cameron blows chunks too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I didn't bother actually reading the thread yet, but trying to make this point after yesterday is absolutely laughable. Those two games could not have possibly had less to do with the "elite" (which Eli is not) QBs on either teams. Brady played like absolute garbage, and Eli wasn't much better. A combination of blind luck, horrendously awful special teams and crappy officiating decided those 2 games more than anything. how was Eli bad yesterday? against the best defense in football he didn't throw any picks and had a few TD passes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedin Green Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 how was Eli bad yesterday? against the best defense in football he didn't throw any picks and had a few TD passes Perhaps not bad, but there was nothing about his performance yesterday that falls anywhere close to being in the "elite" category. He led his offense to a grand total of 20 points in 4 and 1/2 quarters, the last ten of which were off of two muffed punts. Not to mention, he had five straight drives in the 4th quarter and OT where he failed to drive his offense to any points and secure the win. At best, Eli's game yesterday was extremely mediocre, and is quite far down the list of reasons for the Giants' victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Perhaps not bad, but there was nothing about his performance yesterday that falls anywhere close to being in the "elite" category. He led his offense to a grand total of 20 points in 4 and 1/2 quarters, the last ten of which were off of two muffed punts. Not to mention, he had five straight drives in the 4th quarter and OT where he failed to drive his offense to any points and secure the win. At best, Eli's game yesterday was extremely mediocre, and is quite far down the list of reasons for the Giants' victory. Dude put Brady in that pocket and that game isnt close in the Niners favor. Eli played as well as you possibly could imo with the amount of pressure the Niners D was applying. It wasn't an elite performance per say, but that was as old school a football game you're going to see in this era, and Eli got up from every hit he took and kept slinging the ball down the field. The throw to Manningham was brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larz Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 so what do the jets do ? go to the elite QB store ? what's the point here anyway ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 so what do the jets do ? go to the elite QB store ? what's the point here anyway ? Were in ******* purgatory basically forever. We've gone from being the Clippers to the Atlanta Hawks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 I think honestly what it comes down to....its possible for teams without great QB's to make it to the Super Bowl, as Baltimore and San Fran were basically two plays away from doing that....its just more difficult to maintain regular season success with that model. The most elite QB left standing was anything but yesterday. That's a problem with a one and done formula, I'm sure Rodgers hasn't slept in week given how many plays he left out there. Brees probably has nightmares about the 2 ST fumbles. I think the Giants go to GB and lose 8 times out of 10, maybe 7 out of 10 for NO/SF... But that's why having the elite QB is so important, you secure home field and create the best possible opportunity, you go the playoffs every year and give yourself more chances to avoid the upset and/or pull one of your own Btw.. how big is that inexplicable NO loss to St Louis now. Imo, there's almost no chance that SF or NYG would've gone into the superdome and beat NO. If not for losing to St louis, I suspect we'd be talking NO vs Pats now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted January 24, 2012 Author Share Posted January 24, 2012 Perhaps not bad, but there was nothing about his performance yesterday that falls anywhere close to being in the "elite" category. He led his offense to a grand total of 20 points in 4 and 1/2 quarters, the last ten of which were off of two muffed punts. Not to mention, he had five straight drives in the 4th quarter and OT where he failed to drive his offense to any points and secure the win. At best, Eli's game yesterday was extremely mediocre, and is quite far down the list of reasons for the Giants' victory. You're being a bit too myopic just thinking about one game though. It's about the numbers. It's about the averages. Eli didn't have an elite day, but you don't need to in order to win any given game. You do need to be able to play at that level to be competitive. Luck evens out, and that's what happened with the 9ers. They were lucky to get 5 turnovers against the Saints. That's not to say they didn't play well, but the ball just bounces strange ways on fumbles. Some of that luck evened out the week after. It's like flipping a coin. Even if you the first 5 come up heads, by the time you reach 30, it's likely to be close to 50/50. In other words, things revert to the mean, and good QBs tend to find themselves on top. Yesterday was as proof as anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RutgersJetFan Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 But that's why having the elite QB is so important, you secure home field and create the best possible opportunity, you go the playoffs every year and give yourself more chances to avoid the upset and/or pull one of your own The fact that this is even being debated is bizarre. The very notion that possibilty trumps probability is hands down one of the stupidest arguments I've ever seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RutgersJetFan Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 It's like flipping a coin. Even if you the first 5 come up heads, by the time you reach 30, it's likely to be close to 50/50. In other words, things revert to the mean, and good QBs tend to find themselves on top. Yesterday was as proof as anything else. The problem is that Eli isn't dependent on the defense and the defense isn't dependent on Eli. They're independent variables. If you're measuring team efficiency or even Super Bowl probability those stay independent of each other. That Brady made it with a crappy defense and Flacco couldn't with a great one is exactly why. There's no big secret to this and the correlations have been on FO for quite some time. No other aspect of a team correlates to wins as strongly as offense does. It's not even remotely close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 The problem is that Eli isn't dependent on the defense and the defense isn't dependent on Eli. They're independent variables. If you're measuring team efficiency or even Super Bowl probability those stay independent of each other. That Brady made it with a crappy defense and Flacco couldn't with a great one is exactly why. There's no big secret to this and the correlations have been on FO for quite some time. No other aspect of a team correlates to wins as strongly as offense does. It's not even remotely close. That's true, but with Salary Cap they are intertwined somewhat.. If you over pay for the QB's production, like we do, that $$'s going to come from somewhere, the defense, others areas of offense, depth.. something has to give Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RutgersJetFan Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 That's true, but with Salary Cap they are intertwined somewhat.. If you over pay for the QB's production, like we do, that $$'s going to come from somewhere, the defense, others areas of offense, depth.. something has to give That's the problem. Throw in that practical aspect of the game and it makes absolutely zero sense to put any more faith in Sanchez or the belief that he can turn it around anytime soon. The sacrifices this franchise has to make because of his inability are completely unreasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted January 24, 2012 Author Share Posted January 24, 2012 The problem is that Eli isn't dependent on the defense and the defense isn't dependent on Eli. They're independent variables. If you're measuring team efficiency or even Super Bowl probability those stay independent of each other. That Brady made it with a crappy defense and Flacco couldn't with a great one is exactly why. There's no big secret to this and the correlations have been on FO for quite some time. No other aspect of a team correlates to wins as strongly as offense does. It's not even remotely close. BRING HIM BACK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RutgersJetFan Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 BRING HIM BACK HE SAYS MEAN THINGS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Eli looks much better this year than last with a healthy Nicks, a fully developed Cruz, Manningham and tight end threats. You can't be elite without good receivers. Except for Nicks and now Cruz those guys would be nobodies without Manning...They have many options, but they also have the QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 The problem is that Eli isn't dependent on the defense and the defense isn't dependent on Eli. They're independent variables. If you're measuring team efficiency or even Super Bowl probability those stay independent of each other. That Brady made it with a crappy defense and Flacco couldn't with a great one is exactly why. There's no big secret to this and the correlations have been on FO for quite some time. No other aspect of a team correlates to wins as strongly as offense does. It's not even remotely close. Does anyone have a link for this? thx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RutgersJetFan Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Does anyone have a link for this? thx Oh grow up. http://footballoutsiders.com/dvoa-ratings/2011/week-4-dvoa-ratings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbatesman Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2004/guest-column-turnovers-and-unpredictability-defense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 http://www.footballo...ability-defense appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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