bitonti Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 we can split hairs all day and all night over who is elite and who isn't but bottom line big ben and eli are a damn sight better than sanchez and tebow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizard King Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 If we're just going with "gut feel" here, I can't put Eli and Big Ben in the same category as Peyton and Brady. A truly elite QB like Peyton or Brady make their team a Superbowl contender by their mere presence. Eli and Big Ben don't do that and therefore, aren't elite. That's why I think QB play is overrated. You don't need an elite QB to win. You just need a solid QB that you can pair with a quality team - maybe an elite defense, or maybe a solid defense with a solid running game. The Giants and Steelers play like this - solid QB + defense. That's what's winning them superbowls, not their elite QB's. As proof of this, think about the Giants past two titles against the Pats. Did they win because of QB play? No, not really. They won because Eli was "good enough" and their defense held the elite Patriots offense below 20 points each time. Hm, how about that? Defense wins championships. What season were you watching? Eli and Cruz carried that team last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizard King Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 we can split hairs all day and all night over who is elite and who isn't but bottom line big ben and eli are a damn sight better than sanchez and tebow. Big Ben is top 10 NFL without question. 99% of the time the dudes hurt too!! Guy scrambles, has a cannon for an arm, accurate as ****, built like a brick sh*thouse. I want Sanchez to do well but pleeeeease people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizard King Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 The Giants are 4-12 last year without Eli. There should be a basic level of football acumen needed to post. How anyone can argue Eli/Cruz didn't hand NY this Super Bowl is beyond me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizard King Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 A few JN posters have suggested that, if offense is our biggest problem, we need to devote the majority of our 10 picks in this year's draft on such items as a playmaking RB, a # 2 receiver, a new RT, an interior lineman, and a # 2 TE who can both block and catch. Seems logical, right? The problem with this philosophy is the expectation that our two quarterbacks are going to magically become a competent dual-threat under new OC Tony Sparano. If you expect that Sanchez will take the "next step" and that Tebow will be everything the coaching staff wants him to be, then certainly you want to invest in pieces to complement the new system. However, if they do not do so, then we're merely honoring a sunken cost, and trying to build up a unit that will likely still be a middle-of-the-pack, 17-21 points/game type of offense. Meanwhile, you can expect the defense to decline, even if only slightly, without a commitment to getting younger. Sure, despite some missing pieces, Rex always coaches a top-5 unit. Why fix something that isn't really broken, you say? You fix it because its your strongest chance at a Super Bowl. While so many teams in the NFL are building their offenses around a stud QB, we're forced to build around a bottom-3rd QB, and stop these opposing offenses. Want to win a Super Bowl with Sanchez? "Just" Top-5 isn't going to cut it. In 2009, we were the # 1 defense, and felt that perhaps one day we would have an all-time great defense. Now, 3 of our 4 starting linebackers are long in the tooth, and none of them are fast enough to hang in coverage. We don't currently have a healthy FS, and with Landry's injury concerns, who knows how long it will be until we have to turn to Eric Smith again. And, as has been the case since '09, we still lack a game-changing pass-rusher, despite the surprising resurgence of Aaron Maybin's career. The bottom line is that we should spend the majority of our draft picks on the defensive side of the ball. We can hang in there for another year with Wayne Hunter at RT, we don't need a # 2 WR with our new focus on ground-and-pound, and its simply not worth it to use a high draft pick on a RB in today's NFL. The offense is probably going to suck regardless, so the ultimate goal should be to build an all-time great defense. We absolutely need speed and youth on D and I truly believe you build on your strengths. However if we don't get a deep threat, the offense will have no chance. This is why losing Braylon and not finding a way to keep them both was such a mistake. Now we have to go draft/pay for a new one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoicsentry Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Talk about circular logic. The Giants defense sucked. Bottom of the barrel in points and yards. They came up big at the end, but if the Jets D was mediocre the Giants were atrocious. Or were you being sarcastic? They looked great during their playoff run - I swear I saw Pierre Paul get two sacks on one play. LOL. I think the whole team improved down the stretch, and then at the end of the day, they held New England under 20 which is a huge accomplishment. But, your point is well taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoicsentry Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 As a JETS fan I do not care what other defenses are doing or not doing. But the key is our defense broke down at crucial points in the game last season even in games where they performed well for the most part. Like the game against Broncos and Giants. And in some games they looked outright sloppy. You can grade them at B-. But definitely not A+. And when you are near the cap you better be great at some part of the game. Thats the least expectation one can have. As is the case with "elite," "mediocre" is a relative term. You cannot be "mediocre" without comparison to something. So if you're not comparing the Jets defense to other defenses, what exactly ARE you comparing them to? They have been top 5 in many defensive measurables for 3 years running. That's not mediocre in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 There should be a basic level of football acumen needed to post. How anyone can argue Eli/Cruz didn't hand NY this Super Bowl is beyond me The original JN charter specified that we didn't want anyone too smart posting here because it would scare off the original group of moderators. They've grown more lenient over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 They looked great during their playoff run - I swear I saw Pierre Paul get two sacks on one play. LOL. I think the whole team improved down the stretch, and then at the end of the day, they held New England under 20 which is a huge accomplishment. But, your point is well taken. Rushing the passer>all else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenseed4 Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Jets really don't need any defensive linemen, though. Wilkerson - young. Pouha - good player, getting up there in age, but has his replacement right behind him in Ellis. DeVito isn't exactly ancient, he'll be 28 this season. Only spot you can upgrade there is DeVito, but who knows is a drafted DE will take much time from him, he's pretty solid. Would rather draft an OLB who will take Thomas' starting spot. Or an FS, for that matter. Offensive line though yeah we definitely need an RT. Pouha is a GREAT player!!!! He was ranked #1 NT for 3-4 teams in 2011, and #3 in 2010. He doesn't get a lot of pressure, but that's not his assignment; he consistently anchors against 2 players, and makes teams take their runs outside the A-gaps. As for DeVito, he has similar strengths to his game; super strong dude, anchors the run, limited in his pass-rush-pressure. I wouldn't be surprised to see DeVito backing up Pouha at nose, (similar to the way they played Kelly Gregg in Baltimore), and put Ellis at DE (similar to the Haloti Ngata role). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetsFanInDenver Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 As is the case with "elite," "mediocre" is a relative term. You cannot be "mediocre" without comparison to something. So if you're not comparing the Jets defense to other defenses, what exactly ARE you comparing them to? They have been top 5 in many defensive measurables for 3 years running. That's not mediocre in my book. Old old saying : Statistics are like bikins. What they reveal is suggestive but what they conceal is vital! They were definitely not elite last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faba Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 The Jets defense was not elite last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizard King Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 The Jets defense was not elite last year. The D was sucking wind by the 4th quarter. They kept us in a lot of games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faba Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 A team with no pass rush and slow linebackers is not elite- we were better in the red zone that stopped some teams from TD I will give you that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Old old saying : Statistics are like bikins. What they reveal is suggestive but what they conceal is vital! They were definitely not elite last season. "If you torture the statistics, they'll tell you anything you want to hear." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Big Rape is so elite.. fool Pacmule. lol To use his sample, in that last 8 years the SB winning QB's have been....P. Manning, E. Manning, Brees, Brady, Roders and Big Rape. You know, the best QB's in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Elite is like "franchise". There doesn't have to be an elite D, though SF was for 2011. Just like every 1st round pick starter isn't a franchise QB. OTOH, the Jets D was far from mediocre. They were borderline great. THat doesn't mean they can carry a loss poor O. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorge o8 Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 you draft for depth you sign fa to start we will f____ this draft up we need lbs anf fs all are there in this draft even that kid smith fs in the 2nd round he will be a beast in time hightower we can get him in the 20s and get a extra 3rd tha can go to o line rbs, wr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larz Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 you can't expect to hold playoff QB's to 10 points they need to go all in on the passing O c'mon dude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted April 2, 2012 Author Share Posted April 2, 2012 We absolutely need speed and youth on D and I truly believe you build on your strengths. However if we don't get a deep threat, the offense will have no chance. This is why losing Braylon and not finding a way to keep them both was such a mistake. Now we have to go draft/pay for a new one. Umm.....Braylon is still available. He caught 4 balls last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted April 2, 2012 Author Share Posted April 2, 2012 they need to go all in on the passing O Only chance at doing that was getting Peyton Manning. Instead we extended Sanchez and f***ed our chances at improving the passing offense for the next 2-3 years. So now we return to running the ball under new OC Sparano. Improve the defense first and foremost. Its our only chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KINGDIRK Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Only chance at doing that was getting Peyton Manning. Instead we extended Sanchez and f***ed our chances at improving the passing offense for the next 2-3 years. So now we return to running the ball under new OC Sparano. Improve the defense first and foremost. Its our only chance. How exactly are we running the ball with average running backs and no right tackle or blocking TE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoicsentry Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 How exactly are we running the ball with average running backs and no right tackle or blocking TE? With Tebow, Greene, McKnight and maybe a newcomer. With Conner at fullback. Then the best center in the league, a great run blocking RG, and probably a new blocking TE. Not ideal, but likely not the end of the world, either. We did it in 09 and 10, little trouble last year. We'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gastineau Lives Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 This is all very confusing. lol The choices: 1) Shortchange the offense by making risky picks in the later round for offensive playmakers that everyone else will pass up on for the first hundred or so picks of the draft while trying to build an All Time Defense, when in fact the days of the All Time Defense is a thing of the past. 2) You draft offensive playmakers which may be sacrificed at the altar of the wildcat and ground and pound and be as useful to your team as t!ts on a bull. 3) You build an offensive line that will make ground and pound possible and hope you never get down by more than ten points with your all time defense. This may be part of 1) 4) You realize you're kind of ****ed, have a balanced draft and build for the future, hopefully a future that doesn't include a really, really crappy QB. It's ******* whack-a-mole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 If all time defenses are out then why is Rex Ryan a head coach? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gastineau Lives Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 If all time defenses are out then why is Rex Ryan a head coach? Yeah, why hire anybody at all, amirite? Since you'll never see the 85 Bears again, why even have defensive coordinators? It's ******* silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted April 2, 2012 Author Share Posted April 2, 2012 How exactly are we running the ball with average running backs and no right tackle or blocking TE? Sparano is the new OC so scheme will shift towards a more simplistic approach. We also have 10 picks in the upcoming draft to work with. We're committing to the running game regardless of our running game personnel so we might as well get used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet27 Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Our defense will be top 5 and hopefully with one or two additions (line and/or LB) we can be a top 3 defense. In any event, the D will keep us in the games. That means we need to have an offense that does not turn the ball over (QB play). If that happens we will be very tough to beat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Yeah, why hire anybody at all, amirite? Since you'll never see the 85 Bears again, why even have defensive coordinators? It's ******* silly. Why even field a defense at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted April 2, 2012 Author Share Posted April 2, 2012 Our defense will be top 5 and hopefully with one or two additions (line and/or LB) we can be a top 3 defense. In any event, the D will keep us in the games. That means we need to have an offense that does not turn the ball over (QB play). If that happens we will be very tough to beat. If we want to win a championship we'll need to have the # 1 defense by a significant margin like in 2009. Just "staying in games" isn't going to be enough for us. Dominant defense and a better offense than last year could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedin Green Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 It's not that long ago I probably would have completely disagreed with this concept, but at this point it's pretty clear this offense is no less than 3 years from even simply competence barring a sudden rapid turnaround by Sanchez. Might as well keep the defense going as strong as possible in the meantime, so that the next GM only has to really worry about one side of the ball and finding new starting players at just QB, WR, RB, and RT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gastineau Lives Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Why even field a defense at all? Why not set out to win every game 13-10? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet27 Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 If we want to win a championship we'll need to have the # 1 defense by a significant margin like in 2009. Just "staying in games" isn't going to be enough for us. Dominant defense and a better offense than last year could. Basically that's what I was saying.....Top 3 is dominant...top 5 is very good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted April 2, 2012 Author Share Posted April 2, 2012 Basically that's what I was saying.....Top 3 is dominant...top 5 is very good I don't think the 3rd best defense last year was dominant (Houston? Baltimore?). The only dominant defense last year was the Niners. And clearly we need to have a better defense than THEM, because even though they had Frank Gore and Vernon Davis on offense and had that dominant D, they still lost in the NFC Title game. In 2009 we had a dominant defense. The # 2 defense was the Packers, and they were not even that great that year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet27 Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 I don't think the 3rd best defense last year was dominant (Houston? Baltimore?). The only dominant defense last year was the Niners. And clearly we need to have a better defense than THEM, because even though they had Frank Gore and Vernon Davis on offense and had that dominant D, they still lost in the NFC Title game. In 2009 we had a dominant defense. The # 2 defense was the Packers, and they were not even that great that year. If we can be in the top 5 and limit ppg at below 20, we will have a chance to win the division. We also need at the same time have a dominant running game.....that translates to the QB being a "manager" of the game = at least 25 TD's and NO pick 6's...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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