Pressure on Belichick?

[Jet Nut]

Well, Belichick has been to 5 SB's, who knows how many conf championships and has won the division something like 11 out of last 13 years. (and i believe lost on tiebreakers the 2 times they didn't)

 

 COughlin has had down years, belichick has not

I'm not trying to kill Bllichick, don't get why he's getting defended.

I'm just saying when Coughlin has gone up against him, with lesser teams, he's out coached BB and won. BB gets held up as the best, Yet he's always questioned.

[kay_gee]

Besides the Super Bowl years, the Giants haven't been good and sometime downright dreadful.

the Super Bowl teams weren't even that impressive most of the time.

[PFSIKH]

Without Brady, BB went 11-5 with a QB whose last start was in High School.

 

And he took over a terrible Cleveland team and turned them around.

 

A Tyree catch and Wes drop is all that is standing between Belichikc/Brady having 4 or 5 titles.  

[Jet Nut]

the Super Bowl teams weren't even that impressive most of the time.

Which kind of is my point. I think Coughlin generally has done a really good job given he hasn't had great teams, consistent talent to work with yet he's always, even in the years he's won his SBs, being talked about as having to prove himself to save his job.

[Jet Nut]

And he took over a terrible Cleveland team and turned them around.

A Tyree catch and Wes drop is all that is standing between Belichikc/Brady having 4 or 5 titles.

Yup and a last minute melt down by the Rams plus a tuck call against the Raiders, etc, etc and the opposite would be true. The wins count just as the losses do.

And 6,7,7, 11 and then 5 win seasons before being runout of his job and the town like no other coach ever is hardly turning around a terrible Cleveland team.

[PatsFanTX]

 

 

A Tyree catch and Wes drop is all that is standing between Belichikc/Brady having 4 or 5 titles.  

 

That was Coughlin outcoaching BB.

[Jet Nut]

That was Coughlin outcoaching BB.

Not any more than the tuck call made Bellichick a good coach. Works both ways

BTW, losers point to one play to defend themselves. There was a whole game full of opportunities for Bellichich to prove he was the better coach.

[PFSIKH]

That was Coughlin outcoaching BB.

 

No doubt.  I think we can all agree a few plays here and there is all that settles most games.  The Giants out-played the Patriots in both.  The Patriots also had leads in the 4th they could not hold.  All the props in the world to the Giants, they were the better team.

 

 

Yup and a last minute melt down by the Rams plus a tuck call against the Raiders, etc, etc and the opposite would be true. The wins count just as the losses do.

And 6,7,7, 11 and then 5 win seasons before being runout of his job and the town like no other coach ever is hardly turning around a terrible Cleveland team.

 

True. 

 

Again, he was far from perfect at Cleveland, but during an era where you could not easily poach other players from teams to rebuild, he rebuilt the team.  It was immediately better from season 1.  If the team was not moved, there is no telling how far it could have gone.  Ozzie Newsome took the picks Beli had accrued and built on the foundation Belichick had started.  A few years later, they are champions. 

[CTM]

I'm not trying to kill Bllichick, don't get why he's getting defended.

I'm just saying when Coughlin has gone up against him, with lesser teams, he's out coached BB and won. BB gets held up as the best, Yet he's always questioned.

 

 

I do not think Belichick is a great coach, i think he drafts terribly, and retains talent poorly. I think he's a guy that lucked into an all time great QB..

 

He's a good DC, we saw that with Parcells, but as a HC/GM.. ehh

[GREENBEAN]

Always find the press and their favorites interesting.

Bellichick has 3 SB rings. He's untouchable.

Coughlin has two and is always on the hot seat having to prove himself.

While Coughlins two SB wins are over Bellichick and his heavily favored, superior Pats teams.

Coughlin out coaches Bellichick twice. Coughlin has to prove himself while too many call Bellichick one of the best ever

How exactly does that make sense?

Ok, Let me say that I hate the Pats and Belly more than most, but let's be real here. 

I agree that Coughlin out coached the Hood in both superbowls but the difference is that those two losses are in addition to the 3 rings and I believe 4 AFC championships the pats have. I may be wrong but weren't the Pats in the last three AFC championship games? 

They've also been their division champs in all but one year in the past 10. 

The Giants (who I also hate) suck in the years they didn't win the bowl.  What was their record last year?  Eli threw the most INT's in the league last season while the Pats were division champs and all that. 

 

There is a huge difference here. 

[Jet Nut]

Ok, Let me say that I hate the Pats and Belly more than most, but let's be real here.

I agree that Coughlin out coached the Hood in both superbowls but the difference is that those two losses are in addition to the 3 rings and I believe 4 AFC championships the pats have. I may be wrong but weren't the Pats in the last three AFC championship games?

They've also been their division champs in all but one year in the past 10.

The Giants (who I also hate) suck in the years they didn't win the bowl. What was their record last year? Eli threw the most INT's in the league last season while the Pats were division champs and all that.

There is a huge difference here.

Why can't anyone get that my only point is that it's interesting how much grief Coughlin gets, I'm not debating what Bellichick has done. I also mentioned Carrol and Tomlin who also have down years on their resume in a follow up.

I hate the Giants, not a real fan of Coughlin but find it interesting that he's always under fire. With 2 well coached SB wins on his resume.

[shasta14]

I love how you conveniently forgot to mention that prior to Belichick stumbling over Brady that had not won a single championship in 41 years of existence. 

So what your saying is the Patriots went 41 years without a championship?

[Klecko73isGod]

So what your saying is the Patriots went 41 years without a championship?

 

No, I am saying the Pats existed 41 before they won anything. The Jets won their first title in only their 9th year of existence. We are awesome.

[CaliforniaJet]

Without Brady, BB went 11-5 with a QB whose last start was in High School.

Good point, but what is BB's overall record without Brady?

[Latinlawyer]

Look Coughlin deserves some slack..the guy has two SB rings with the Giants...right now I would take a Jets SB ring every five years....in a heartbeat. Players will tell you how hard it is to GET to a superbowl, he has gotten his team there twice and won. Coughlin should also have a lifetime pass. NY Media is merciless...Coughlin deserves to leave on his own terms.

 

Belichek also deserves to leave on his own terms, 3 superbowls...regardless of his cheating allegations is a feat...no hot seat should be there for either coach.

 

In NY Jet land we would kill for just one ring in our lifetimes...

 

LL

[JerryK]

Guys, guys...

Let's just admit it.  The patriots are a great team with Brady and Belichick.  Let us rejoice in their greatness while they're with the team.

And we'll rejoice equally in the depths of the team's suck when they're gone.

[GREENBEAN]

Why can't anyone get that my only point is that it's interesting how much grief Coughlin gets, I'm not debating what Bellichick has done. I also mentioned Carrol and Tomlin who also have down years on their resume in a follow up.

I hate the Giants, not a real fan of Coughlin but find it interesting that he's always under fire. With 2 well coached SB wins on his resume.

I hear ya, but I think the ire comes from  the fact that his teams tank between the good years. 

 

I see your point though. 

[shasta14]

Guys, guys...

Let's just admit it.  The patriots are a great team with Brady and Belichick.  Let us rejoice in their greatness while they're with the team.

And we'll rejoice equally in the depths of the team's suck when they're gone.

 

Oh yes of course, but,,,,,,and this will strike fear into the hearts of Jets fans everywhere, but what if that suck never comes? What if what comes after Brady, and after Belichick doesn't suck at all? What then Jets fans?

[AFJF]

Always find the press and their favorites interesting.

Bellichick has 3 SB rings. He's untouchable.

Coughlin has two and is always on the hot seat having to prove himself.

While Coughlins two SB wins are over Bellichick and his heavily favored, superior Pats teams.

Coughlin out coaches Bellichick twice. Coughlin has to prove himself while too many call Bellichick one of the best ever

How exactly does that make sense?

 

I suppose it's because BB wins 12 games every single year...but you make an excellent point.  Never thought of it that way.

[Integrity28]

Because every time the Jets try to shaft the Pats it comes back to kick them in the nutsack.

Stealing Parcells resulted in Belichick telling the Jets FU and going to NE.

Weaseling Curtis Martin from NE resulted in a HOF RB who disappeared for the Jets in big games.

Mo Lew nuff said.

Jumping ahead of NE to steal Vern Goldston.

The Mangina

Trading Revis off to Tampa then Revis lands right in NEs lap.

 

lol

 

Anyway, the Jets didn't trade up for Gholston.

[BlakeSpenceBlockedPunt]

I'm questioning whether Belichick has actually under-performed considering the incredible talent he's had on his teams.  Can you be considered the best coach of all time when you have gone a decade without winning a title while you have a team stocked with outstanding talent in a division that has been down (almost assuring a division title)?

 

I don't think so.  It's possible he hasn't gotten as much out of this group of talent during his tenure as he should have.

 

He's won a ton of games (so did Bobby Cox) but I still maintain that Belly has under-performed.  Three titles all surrounded in controversy - nothing clean.

 

Let's not kid ourselves, the Pats have had extremely good players on both sides of the ball for a long time.  Off the top of my head:  Brady, Moss, Welker, Gronk, Seymour, Wilfork, Talib, Harrison, Bruschi, McGinnest, Dillon, Light, Mankins, Koppen, Woody, Law, Milloy, Samuel, Vinatieri.  I'd say there are at least 8 HoF players on that list...maybe more.

[Lil Bit Special]

Why can't anyone get that my only point is that it's interesting how much grief Coughlin gets, I'm not debating what Bellichick has done. I also mentioned Carrol and Tomlin who also have down years on their resume in a follow up.

I hate the Giants, not a real fan of Coughlin but find it interesting that he's always under fire. With 2 well coached SB wins on his resume.

 

 

We get what your point is, and have pointed out WHY he gets the grief and hot seat he does.  You just choose to ignore the fact his team has missed the playoffs 4 of the last 5 years.

[Jet Nut]

I suppose it's because BB wins 12 games every single year...but you make an excellent point.  Never thought of it that way.

Thanks, I'm not trying to knock Belli but if you're Coughlin, have never had a team as strong as Belli, get your team to two SBs no one ever thought you'd get to and beat Bellichick twice, once with an undefeated team, you would think you shouldn't be on everyone's list of coaches on the hot seat who have to prove something.

[Jet Nut]

We get what your point is, and have pointed out WHY he gets the grief and hot seat he does.  You just choose to ignore the fact his team has missed the playoffs 4 of the last 5 years.

Again, i thought 2 SB wins, both over a guy who is considered the NFLs best, with a roster not as good as the Pats, one Pats team that was undefeated, would get you a little more respect. He's proved he can coach.

Find it interesting that he gets put on everyone's hit seat and guys like Lewis and Smith rarely, if ever do.

[Lil Bit Special]

Again, i thought 2 SB wins, both over a guy who is considered the NFLs best, with a roster not as good as the Pats, one Pats team that was undefeated, would get you a little more respect. He's proved he can coach.

Find it interesting that he gets put on everyone's hit seat and guys like Lewis and Smith rarely, if ever do.

 

It doesnt matter who he beat, What matters is his teams arent very good most years.  Why should 2 super bowl wins keep someone off the hot seat  when his teams arent very good other years?

 

I dont care if he is on the hot seat or not.  I dont care who is on a hot seat.  But to say that there should be pressure on Belichick just because he hasnt won a superbowl in a long time, even with have double digit wins since 2002 is ludicrious.  Every city has their heroes and goats.  Belichick will always be a hero in New ENgland.  Unless somehow he finds a way to start having losing seasons.  Then he'll be old and washed up.

[JerryK]

Oh yes of course, but,,,,,,and this will strike fear into the hearts of Jets fans everywhere, but what if that suck never comes? What if what comes after Brady, and after Belichick doesn't suck at all? What then Jets fans?

Do you remember the Patriots before Belichick?  Nobody else does.

[SoFlaJets]

OK, I'd say now is the perfect time to make the comparison; Tom Brady or Chad Pennington

[Jet Nut]

It doesnt matter who he beat, What matters is his teams arent very good most years.  Why should 2 super bowl wins keep someone off the hot seat  when his teams arent very good other years?

 

I dont care if he is on the hot seat or not.  I dont care who is on a hot seat.  But to say that there should be pressure on Belichick just because he hasnt won a superbowl in a long time, even with have double digit wins since 2002 is ludicrious.  Every city has their heroes and goats.  Belichick will always be a hero in New ENgland.  Unless somehow he finds a way to start having losing seasons.  Then he'll be old and washed up.

And whether he, the Pats or their fans want to admit it or not, would help that he win something that didn't have cheating attached to it.

With Coughlin i think that we forget sometimes the teams just aren't good enough to win, isn't always due to the HC. To me once you've won, you've proven that you're good enough to win. That he beat the best, with less than great talent makes it a stronger case.

[PatriotReign37]

I love how you conveniently forgot to mention that prior to Belichick stumbling over Brady that had not won a single championship in 41 years of existence.

After the Jets 45 year drought it doesn't look so bad.

Thanks!

[Larz]

the pressure will come when he trades brady to jerry jones for 11 draft picks in about 2 years

[shasta14]

Do you remember the Patriots before Belichick?  Nobody else does.

 

They had more successes than the Jets, although that's not saying much. I know, it's a scary thought for you, you just want the big bad monster to go away. Bottom line is the Patriots real success started before B.B. and Brady, it started when the Kraft family bought the team. As long as the Kraft family owns the Pats they will have more success than failure.   

[Matt39]

Guys a dick but the Pats success isn't by accident.

Team is prepared to play football every week.

[Jetsfan80]

Guys a dick but the Pats success isn't by accident.

 

Pretty sure having a 6th round pick on a Big 10 QB work out to be an all-time great is very close to an accident.

[PFSIKH]

I'm questioning whether Belichick has actually under-performed considering the incredible talent he's had on his teams.  Can you be considered the best coach of all time when you have gone a decade without winning a title while you have a team stocked with outstanding talent in a division that has been down (almost assuring a division title)?

 

I don't think so.  It's possible he hasn't gotten as much out of this group of talent during his tenure as he should have.

 

He's won a ton of games (so did Bobby Cox) but I still maintain that Belly has under-performed.  Three titles all surrounded in controversy - nothing clean.

 

Let's not kid ourselves, the Pats have had extremely good players on both sides of the ball for a long time.  Off the top of my head:  Brady, Moss, Welker, Gronk, Seymour, Wilfork, Talib, Harrison, Bruschi, McGinnest, Dillon, Light, Mankins, Koppen, Woody, Law, Milloy, Samuel, Vinatieri.  I'd say there are at least 8 HoF players on that list...maybe more.

The answer is no.

 

A majority of those defensive players in your "whose who" in Patriots' history have not suited up for the Patriots in a decade give or take a year.

 

It is not like he has the same core that won 3 of 4. I believe Wilfork and Brady are the only hold overs from the last title.

 

In the 9 years since their last title, they have the best record and his teams have two Superbowl losses and three AFC Championship game losses. This is not a failure of Belichick, it is a testament on how good those Patriot teams were.

 

Everything came together for the Patriots in 2001-2004. A very good QB on a rookie contract and a very good D. As soon as the window was open it starts to close as players get older and the young players need to get paid.

 

Seattle is going to be good for a long time as long as they have Wilson. However, their window is starting to close as those 3rd and 5th rounders start getting paid to the level of their talent.

[shasta14]

Pretty sure having a 6th round pick on a Big 10 QB work out to be an all-time great is very close to an accident.

 

Really? How so? Are you saying the Patriots didn't scout Brady and put a draft worthy grade on him? Are you saying that they put the wrong name on the draft card and didn't mean to use a pick on him? Are you saying that no one else scouted Brady? Are you saying that no teams look for QB's late in the draft to develop for the future? Are you saying that the Patriots didn't develop Brady's skills as a QB? So you want us to believe all that was an accident? Was Joe Montana an accident because he didn't get drafted until the 3rd round? Do you have any idea where Bart Starr was drafted? Or any number of Hall of fame QB's were taken?  

Is it your belief that it's not an accident when a player is taken in the 1st round? Or could it simply be that it's only an accident when that player is drafted by a hated division rival and goes on to make your teams fortunes miserable for the better part of two decades?