Ryan Fitzpatrick: MERGED

[Rangers9]

Just now, Jet Nut said:

Because you have to budget the money towards the cap whether he ins or not?

Yeah but that's not a lot of money for a starting NFL Qb. And what I'm saying is: is it worth it if we win a Super Bowl. Listen most Jets fans want Fitz back and think he gives us our best chance to win in 2016. 

[Jet Nut]

2 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

Yeah but that's not a lot of money for a starting NFL Qb. And what I'm saying is: is it worth it if we win a Super Bowl. Listen most Jets fans want Fitz back and think he gives us our best chance to win in 2016. 

1. It's more like Han double what the Jets budgeted to pay him and don't have cap room to pay.

2.  All my STH friends, to a man, want to bring someone else in to play QB.  Glennon leading the pack.

3.  I'm not sure most here think he's the best chance to win for us.

4.  A lot of fans don't think he can match last years performance and that wasn't enough

[Maxman]

5 hours ago, T0mShane said:

I want Courtney to narrate my dreams.

That is available to VIP Members only. When ordering let us know your t-shirt size as well.

[Rangers9]

Glennon has almost no Ws as a starting Qb. And has been beaten out in every Qb competition he ever had with the Bucs including McCown. There is no way this guy comes in and is more ready than Fitz to lead our offense. What you're asking for is another rebuild when we don't need one. I give Fitz the 20 for 2 with incentives. I don't give the Bucs a draft pick for a guy who's unproven.

[TuscanyTile2]

16 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

Yeah but that's not a lot of money for a starting NFL Qb. And what I'm saying is: is it worth it if we win a Super Bowl. Listen most Jets fans want Fitz back and think he gives us our best chance to win in 2016. 

The point is that I don't think we can win a Superbowl with him.  I don't think I'm alone on this point.

[Saul Goodman]

55 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I'm in the "no more stopgaps" group.  I guess it was poorly worded though.  What I meant was that I don't want to commit big money or years to Fitz (or a guy like him). I'd rather we finish 2-14 and draft a QB.  Or if Macc likes Goff/Wentz then trade up.  I'm fine w/ trading a ton to get one of them if Macc believes in one of them.  I know we might stink for a couple of years but I'm fine w/ it.  I want to build a team around a franchise QB, not a retread like Fitz.  And even if Fitz turns his career around and starts playing like he did last year, I still don't think it's good enough to win us a Superbowl. 

We need a Brady/Rodgers/Ben type QB.  I know they're not easy to find (actually they're the hardest thing to find).  But we either have to "bottom out" and go 2-14 in the right year or else trade a king's ransom to move up.  But I want that to happen. 

I hate to say that I was absolutely FOR the Sanchez trade at the time (trading up to be able to draft him).  It wasn't even so much because of Sanchez but more because it at least was a roll of the dice on the right type of move (building around a QB).  I know it was the wrong QB but "nothing ventured, nothing gained". 

Before Sanchez, I think the last QB we took with a 1st round pick was Chaddy cakes (who I never really liked).  Before that was who?  Ken O'Brien?  (Nagel was a 2nd rounder I think btw).

 

 

All of us would like a young franchise QB. But just want to point out that in the scenario you described above, both Maccagnan and Bowles would be fired. Not for a single 2-14 season but one season like that followed by another losing season and they'd both be out. I'm not really buying into the "win a Super Bowl or I'd rather finish in last place" strategy. I like our GM and HC. I think we need to win as many games every year as possible and be patient until Maccagnan finds us our long-term franchise QB. 

[Jetlag]

Jetlag's Grand Theorem:

The New York Jets and Mr. Ryan Fitzpatrick already have a deal worked out.  

The general manager Mr. Michael Macagnan has asked for it to be announced after the draft where either Mr. Muhammed Wilkerson has been traded or Mr. D' brickashaw Ferguson has been released, and a suitable rookie offensive tackle is drafted.

After which Jets fandom once again returns to praising Mr. Ryan Fitzpatrick.

[Rangers9]

5 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

The point is that I don't think we can win a Superbowl with him.  I don't think I'm alone on this point.

I don't agree with you but it's not an unreasonable point you're making. I think you can win with a good game manager like Fitz. If like with Denver the rest of your team is pretty good. The Qb does not have to be a great player and there really are very few franchise Qbs. We tried very hard to develop one in Mark and it was a bust. I wouldn't be devoting all of my effort and resources to try and get one. I'll take a good vet who knows how to play over a prospect who if starting loses games. 

[cant wait]

3 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

I don't agree with you but it's not an unreasonable point you're making. I think you can win with a good game manager like Fitz. If like with Denver the rest of your team is pretty good. The Qb does not have to be a great player and there really are very few franchise Qbs. We tried very hard to develop one in Mark and it was a bust. I wouldn't be devoting all of my effort and resources to try and get one. I'll take a good vet who knows how to play over a prospect who if starting loses games. 

Pretty good? You need an all-time great defense to win with a weak QB like fitz or 2015 Peyton manning. Putting together a super unit like that is just as hard as finding a franchise QB

[Jet Nut]

5 hours ago, chirorob said:

Who?    Where is this great young QB?

If the coaches thought it was Geno, they would go with Geno.   If they thought it was Petty, they would go with Petty.

And if they thought it was Fitz they wouldn't be 9+ mil apart.  

Wouldnt be talking to TB about Glennon, SF about Kaep, RG3, etc.. 

[Mainejet]

Sign Fitz. That's the only logical conclusion that can keep Mac in the good graces of the fan base. He starts Geno and you'll see how quickly one man can go from revered and respected to the hated.

[win4ever]

This should be an interesting study into football psycho-analysis for negotiating.  Theoretically, Chip Kelly is the wild card in these negotiations.  Kapernick fits in extremely well into his system, so both he and Kapernick know that they are the best case scenarios for each other to rebuild the value.  Infact, Mariotta at Oregon was compared to Kapernick a lot in their running ability (not throwing), so I think Chip wants him to play badly.  If Kapernick is off the table, then Fitzpatrick is sitting pretty, with both Denver and the Jets in win now situations and in need of a QB.  If Kapernick is on the table, then Fitzpatrick is screwed because there is only one chair left.  If you are Denver, you have a great team built, but need a QB.  Do you go for the short term with Fitzpatrick, and hope he does well with Thomas/Sanders as he did with Marshall/Decker?  Do you give up draft assets and cap space for Kapernick?  If you are the Jets, also a veteran laden team, do you go with the familiar Fitz, or trade for Kapernick?  It should be interesting to see the first domino fall, because I think the second domino makes off with the best deal.

To be honest. I'm more than fine with going into the season with Geno Smith as the starting QB.  If Fitzpatrick had gone to UNC, I don't think half the board would love him as much.  Due to the fact that he went to Harvard, there seems to be this notion that he's a genius on the field, dissecting the defense left and right.  He might be able to do his own taxes better than these guys, but he's not dissecting much on the field that would put him above an average QB.  Watch the film breakdowns, there are plenty of times where the Jets run mirror concepts with 4 WRs.  2 Wrs run the same route on opposite ends of each other.  The "read" on the play is simple, see at the line if there is a giveaway to a blitz, pick a side you have an advantage in, and then read one player (usually a safety or LB) before throwing.  There are countless examples where Fitz is staring down Marshall/Decker the whole time.  This isn't Peyton Manning coming to the line and yelling out what the LB ate that morning, these are simple read throws that were more often won than lost because we had one of the best WR combos out there.

I'm not saying Geno is going to break records, but I would much rather have Geno plus the money than Fitzpatrick even at $10 million.  

[darkprime]

Some say denver is still possible for Fitz, but would Denver take him and pay him 8-12 million to be a starter when it's possible Sanchez could beat him in camp?  I know some think Sanchez is terrible, but if he only has to be a game manager, couldn't he do that just as well as Fitz?

[Rangers9]

The Qb is only one position and to fans it's really over emphasized. But you do need someone competent to play Qb. A guy like Mark Sanchez who leads the NFL in turnovers since entering the league as we know can have a complete reverse effect on a team. So if building a team I don't trade my entire entire draft to trade up and get a good Qb prospect. How many of these guys right now after only a few years in the NFL are out of football. 

[munchmemory]

15 hours ago, T0mShane said:

I want Courtney to narrate my dreams.

Make sure she wears a smock.

[Rangers9]

I thought this standoff with Fitz would be over by now esp with Kap not being traded yesterday. Reportedly since Kap wouldn't have been able to pass a physical the 49ers wouldn't have gained much by trading him because his salary is guaranteed. But you have to think that Fitz's agent isn't stupid and trying to hurt his client by not accepting an offer with the obvious team to sign with. So there must be communication with a few other teams and even the Jets in terms of different scenarios. Maybe Mac told them well if Denver offers you this, call me back, this is my offer but don't sign until we can counteroffer. The Rams have already stated that Keenum will be their starter. That can change, they seem to not even be considering Nick Foles who might be hard to trade due to his contract which I think is 11 million. So for Fitz unless another team bails out on their starting Qb there are maybe 4 places he could end up in: the Jets, LA, the Broncos and the 49ers. The most logical being the Jets. 

[nyjunc]

14 hours ago, Rangers9 said:

How was he sabotaged.  Because he didn't sign one cornerback He drafted mostly D players and ones that Rex wanted.. Idzik played the same game that Mac's playing now with Fitz. He did offer deals to two of the top Cbs (DRC and Davis) that year and both of them signed with other teams, one staying with his own team. I guess not every player wanted to play for the great Rex Ryan. To me playing hardball with your starting Qb is much riskier business. As for Rex he had better D talent in Buffalo and he didn't do jack with it except beating us twice. And some of the players were openly complaining about all of the BS they were hearing. PS there is no way that Elway is going to go with Mark Sanchez as his starting Qb. 

did you see our roster in 2014?  you need to ask that question? he was saving up for a big splash in the offseason after 2014, an offseason he never got to oversee.

Our starting QB is an average journeyman, we are handling this perfectly.  

Mark was better than either QB Elway had last year(though the team around him isn't nearly as good after FA losses), I think Mark COULD be the starter but I expect he'll draft a QB and if he's ready to play they will start him and if not they will win with Mark.

[nyjunc]

25 minutes ago, darkprime said:

Some say denver is still possible for Fitz, but would Denver take him and pay him 8-12 million to be a starter when it's possible Sanchez could beat him in camp?  I know some think Sanchez is terrible, but if he only has to be a game manager, couldn't he do that just as well as Fitz?

it makes no sense for Denver to go after Fitz and the Jets know it.

[Mike135]

9 hours ago, Rangers9 said:

It's obvious that if you pay Fitz he gets no more than a 2 year deal. So what if he gets 2 years at 20 with incentives. Maybe something like this: he gets an extra million if the Jets make the playoffs. Another mil if the Jets get into the Super Bowl. And another mil if we win the SB. And maybe an additional 500 k if he makes the Pro Bowl. So if we win the Super Bowl he gets 23 million for two years. And we get a SB before we die. Now why would you be against that!

So you're saying 10mil per year plus bonuses?  And then you ask why people would be against that?

Alright, let's look at possible scenarios for 2016.

Fitz:

1. Pay him 10mil +  bonuses for playoffs.  So based on history, that equals 10mil.  That's 10mil per year not spent on Oline, LBs...  Just to guarantee mediocre seasons.  Even if he has another "great" (based on Fitz-standards) season this year, based on our schedule that means what, 8-8 at best this season?  We end up with another mid-range draft pick and we're still locked into Fitz for another mediocre season for 2017.

Geno, making 1.6mil:

1. He sucks.  Even though he went 8-8 his rookie season with $hit around him, let's say that was his absolute peak.  Even with a very good team and years of NFL experience, he only manages 2 or 3 wins.  Jets know to get rid of Geno or sign for like 1mil/year as career backup.  They have a top draft pick in 2017 (presumably for a QB) and the team wasn't hurt by spending 10mil on mediocrity  (Fitz).  So the rookie QB in 2017 has more chance of success.
2. Geno performs decent and goes 8-8.  Same as Fitz.  Except we spent the 10mil on the team.  Now Jets can decide on giving a young average QB an extension for midrange $ or not.
3. Geno excels.  We get 10 or 11 wins.  Make the playoffs, and we're set at QB longterm having only spent 1.6mil in 2016 on the QB.  All while building the team with additional saving from not spending on Fitz.

I would prefer all 3 Geno options to the Fitz option.  That's why I would be against your suggestion.

[Rangers9]

28 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

did you see our roster in 2014?  you need to ask that question? he was saving up for a big splash in the offseason after 2014, an offseason he never got to oversee.

Our starting QB is an average journeyman, we are handling this perfectly.  

Mark was better than either QB Elway had last year(though the team around him isn't nearly as good after FA losses), I think Mark COULD be the starter but I expect he'll draft a QB and if he's ready to play they will start him and if not they will win with Mark.

I think the only way Mark can start and have any success is as a game manager. A conservative offense for a team with a great defense. He leads the NFL in turnovers since coming into the league. Fitz is a lot more consistent than he is imo and better than an average journeyman. He showed a lot in 2015 and there were holes in the skill positions it wasn't perfect by any means. He played very well and his teammates want him back. I don't see Sanchez being the Denver starter although if they bring in Kap it's possible he could beat him out for the job. Because Kap is also a player in decline. Whereas Fitz is a player whose game has gone up. 

[nyjunc]

3 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

I think the only way Mark can start and have any success is as a game manager. A conservative offense for a team with a great defense. He leads the NFL in turnovers since coming into the league. Fitz is a lot more consistent than he is imo and better than an average journeyman. He showed a lot in 2015 and there were holds in the skill positions it wasn't perfect by any means. He played very well and his teammates want him back. I don't see Sanchez being the Denver starter although if they bring in Kap it's possible he could beat him out for the job. Because Kap is also a player in decline. Whereas Fitz is a player who's game is going up. 

he wasn't a game manager in 2010 and nearly led a team not nearly as talented as Denver to a Super Bowl.  it has been proven teams can win w/ Mark, it has not been proven teams can win w/ Fitz.

[Rangers9]

That money for Fitz is very moderate for a starting Qb. They want him back but you can't skimp at that position esp a player who had a good year. And has the confidence of the team and front office. I mean I'm throwing numbers out there with no knowledge of the true negotiations. I don't think we want a million dollar Qb running our team. Geno is an ok backup. 

[Mike135]

1 minute ago, Rangers9 said:

That money for Fitz is very moderate for a starting Qb. They want him back but you can't skimp at that position esp a player who had a good year. And has the confidence of the team and front office. I mean I'm throwing numbers out there with no knowledge of the true negotiations. I don't think we want a million dollar Qb running our team. Geno is an ok backup. 

If you're ok with mediocrity (6 to 10 win seasons), you sign Fitz for 7mil+.  If you're not, ya don't.

[ZachEY]

Seriously... IT HAS BEEN PROVEN that with top ranked defenses, and top ranked running games, Mark Sanchez can lead you to BACK-2-BACK AFCCG PARTICIPATION!

[JustInFudge]

15 hours ago, T0mShane said:

I want Courtney to narrate my dreams.

Nobody wants that for Courtney...

[Rangers9]

4 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

he wasn't a game manager in 2010 and nearly led a team not nearly as talented as Denver to a Super Bowl.  it has been proven teams can win w/ Mark, it has not been proven teams can win w/ Fitz.

You talked earlier about Fitz and Geno having low winning percentages. What about Sanchez. I wasn't able to find it but it has to be low. Give him credit for coming back from a bad injury, learning a tough offense and playing ok with the Eagles. But he wasn't the answer and his team didn't make the playoffs. He is basically now an NFL backup who has starting experience. He has a job and is a 4-5 mil player. 

[nyjunc]

2 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

You talked earlier about Fitz and Geno having low winning percentages. What about Sanchez. I wasn't able to find it but it has to be low. Give him credit for coming back from a bad injury, learning a tough offense and playing ok with the Eagles. But he wasn't the answer and his team didn't make the playoffs. He is basically now an NFL backup who has starting experience. He has a job and is a 4-5 mil player. 

Sanchez is over .500 as a starter, Fitz and Geno are nowhere near .500

 

he actually played very well w/ the eagles 2 years ago, they missed the playoffs b/c they couldn't stop anyone.  Last year Mark stunk in his 2 starts.

 

Fitz is a backup in this league too, a backup that happens to be starting.

[Rangers9]

5 minutes ago, Mike135 said:

If you're ok with mediocrity (6 to 10 win seasons), you sign Fitz for 7mil+.  If you're not, ya don't.

I'm not looking past 2016 and I wouldn't give Fitz a 33 year old player more than a 2 year deal. But he wasn't mediocre in 2015 and imo we have the best chance to win with him in 2016. This planning in advance and constant rebuilding esp at Qb is just a formula for losing. We have a chance to make the playoffs in 2016. 

[Rangers9]

1 minute ago, nyjunc said:

Sanchez is over .500 as a starter, Fitz and Geno are nowhere near .500

 

he actually played very well w/ the eagles 2 years ago, they missed the playoffs b/c they couldn't stop anyone.  Last year Mark stunk in his 2 starts.

 

Fitz is a backup in this league too, a backup that happens to be starting.

I would like to see that stat. He was definitely under .500 with us and I think below .500 with Philly. Fitz I think is a player who has improved not  regressed like Mark. The Jets really counted on him to be our franchise Qb. And gave him every opportunity to succeed. Mark was a bust. He wasn't good with Philly he was ok. And they traded him for nothing even though he has a very cap friendly contract. The only reason Elway made that deal was because of the tiny compensation and his salary. 

[Mike135]

9 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

I'm not looking past 2016 and I wouldn't give Fitz a 33 year old player more than a 2 year deal. But he wasn't mediocre in 2015 and imo we have the best chance to win with him in 2016. This planning in advance and constant rebuilding esp at Qb is just a formula for losing. We have a chance to make the playoffs in 2016. 

Well, I see your points but disagree.  Fitz was the definition of mediocre.  If you saw any of the great breakdowns of Fitz's performances here, you know Fitz made many-many bad calls at QB.  The team was good enough in spite of that though to win.

And I believe a formula for losing is paying big money for that sort of QB.

Playoffs in 2016 w/Fitz?  Crazier things have happened, but really?  Last year's schedule was a cake-walk in comparison to this year, and now we'll have to degrade the team to pay for Fitz.  What leads you to believe Fitz could get us to the playoffs in 2016 then?  He NEVER has in his career.  Last season was his best opportunity and he failed.

[nyjunc]

3 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

I would like to see that stat. He was definitely under .500 with us and I think below .500 with Philly. Fitz I think is a player who has improved not  regressed like Mark. The Jets really counted on him to be our franchise Qb. And gave him every opportunity to succeed. Mark was a bust. He wasn't good with Philly he was ok. And they traded him for nothing even though he has a very cap friendly contract. The only reason Elway made that deal was because of the tiny compensation and his salary. 

w/ us:  33-29 plus 4-2 in playoffs(I din't count playoffs)

w/ Philly: 4-6

overall: 37-35(41-37 if you include playoffs)

Mark had ONE under .500 season for us and has had one under .500 season in his career where he has started at least half the games.

Fitz greatly improved playing in a familiar, QB friendly offense w/ the most talent we have had on O since the 80s.  

Elway made the deal b/c he got a good option for cheap rather than overpaying for someone like Fitz.

[Rangers9]

16 minutes ago, Mike135 said:

If you're ok with mediocrity (6 to 10 win seasons), you sign Fitz for 7mil+.  If you're not, ya don't.

First the coaching staff and his teammates want him back. Players like Marshall feel confident with him and think they can win and make the playoffs in 2016 with Fitz as our Qb. One reason (not excuse) he hasn't made the playoffs is because the teams he has started for were below average like the Bills and Texans two years ago,. Actually until hie got injured he played well for Houston. So his last two starting jobs he's been pretty good. So that's why I agree with Bowles that he's an improving player. I guess Mac could structure his contract and front load it: give him his guaranteed money up front so in case he doesn't play well they can release him in 2017. Again you don't get rid of your starting Qb after a good year over a few million bucks.The idea is to win now.

[Rangers9]

7 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

w/ us:  33-29 plus 4-2 in playoffs(I din't count playoffs)

w/ Philly: 4-6

overall: 37-35(41-37 if you include playoffs)

Mark had ONE under .500 season for us and has had one under .500 season in his career where he has started at least half the games.

Fitz greatly improved playing in a familiar, QB friendly offense w/ the most talent we have had on O since the 80s.  

Elway made the deal b/c he got a good option for cheap rather than overpaying for someone like Fitz.

All I can say (and thanks for looking up those stats) is that my happiest day as a Jets fan was when Mark was released. I'll take Geno over him. And Fitz over Geno. Fitz is our best Qb since Chad (and Brett Favre). And btw Elway isn't out of the market for Fitz. Of course we don't know that. 

[Mike135]

5 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

First the coaching staff and his teammates want him back. Players like Marshall feel confident with him and think they can win and make the playoffs in 2016 with Fitz as our Qb. One reason (not excuse) he hasn't made the playoffs is because the teams he has started for were below average like the Bills and Texans two years ago,. Actually until hie got injured he played well for Houston. So his last two starting jobs he's been pretty good. So that's why I agree with Bowles that he's an improving player. I guess Mac could structure his contract and front load it: give him his guaranteed money up front so in case he doesn't play well they can release him in 2017. Again you don't get rid of your starting Qb after a good year over a few million bucks.The idea is to win now.

So people are ok giving reasons (excuses) for why Fitz has never made the playoffs over his long career, but not for Geno.  Fitz never had as bad a supporting cast as Geno did his rookie and 2nd seasons.  Even with good teams around them, young QBs usually get a "pass" if they even play at all.  

Instead we Jet fans critique/judge a guy based on his first two seasons in the league with the worst offense around him.  Then when we get coaches and an offense he could win with, we potentially decide to pay big for a career loser.  

It's baffling to me.

[ZachEY]

Fun recent stat I learned:

Since 2009, Mark Sanchez is the NFL Leader in Turnovers per Game.