the longer this goes on the less i want Fitz

[jamesr]

2 hours ago, Mike135 said:

It's just perspective.  Your points make sense and I can understand why you'd prefer 1 n 4.  

Though I see #1 as the half measure.  Spend big for a guy who failed to capitalize on a very weak schedule with a good team around him?..  Eh, seems like a waste and can even hurt the team.

#2.  Who?  Haven't heard of one available QB worth spending on.

#3.  Bingo!  Ding, ding, ding!  Winner!  

#4.  "Accelerate"?  Aka, perhaps ruin their careers.  Look what this team has done to Geno.  He's a top 2nd round pick with more physical tools than anyone we've had in a while, and 90% of the fans despise him because we played him too early (not to mention with an offense equivalent to a division 3 college team).

I never said spend big for Fitz.

OK, let's play "what if" with Geno for a sec. What if he starts, and plays OK, and we go 8-8 or so, but don't make the play-offs. Then what? Resign him to a long term deal? No thanks. Let him walk? "But what if ..?". Franchise him? Probably our only option - another one year "prove it" deal (like Cousins in Washington) - but costly.

I feel that the organisation moved on from Geno last year. They had every excuse to play him when Fitz got hurt, and chose not to. They simply see him for what he is - a low price, adequate back up. Just my opinion of course - maybe their lack or urgency on Fitz shows that they don't see the gap between the two as worth worrying about.

[cant wait]

21 minutes ago, jamesr said:

I never said spend big for Fitz.

OK, let's play "what if" with Geno for a sec. What if he starts, and plays OK, and we go 8-8 or so, but don't make the play-offs. Then what? Resign him to a long term deal? No thanks. Let him walk? "But what if ..?". Franchise him? Probably our only option - another one year "prove it" deal (like Cousins in Washington) - but costly.

I feel that the organisation moved on from Geno last year. They had every excuse to play him when Fitz got hurt, and chose not to. They simply see him for what he is - a low price, adequate back up. Just my opinion of course - maybe their lack or urgency on Fitz shows that they don't see the gap between the two as worth worrying about.

I think the logic is pretty simple, you don't pay for a QB unless you have your franchise guy. Otherwise just go zero-QB and spend the cap savings on building a well rounded roster. that way if you strike gold like Seattle did with Wilson, your team is set up and ready to compete

[jamesr]

10 minutes ago, cant wait said:

I think the logic is pretty simple, you don't pay for a QB unless you have your franchise guy. Otherwise just go zero-QB and spend the cap savings on building a well rounded roster. that way if you strike gold like Seattle did with Wilson, your team is set up and ready to compete

The logic is simple, yes ... but how do you know when you have your franchise guy?

Let's say we start Geno, let's say he throws 32 TD's, 14 INT's, we go 11-5 and make the play-offs. Is he "the guy"? Because you've got a heck of a decision to make on resigning him.

[Mike135]

1 hour ago, jamesr said:

I never said spend big for Fitz.

OK, let's play "what if" with Geno for a sec. What if he starts, and plays OK, and we go 8-8 or so, but don't make the play-offs. Then what? Resign him to a long term deal? No thanks. Let him walk? "But what if ..?". Franchise him? Probably our only option - another one year "prove it" deal (like Cousins in Washington) - but costly.

I feel that the organisation moved on from Geno last year. They had every excuse to play him when Fitz got hurt, and chose not to. They simply see him for what he is - a low price, adequate back up. Just my opinion of course - maybe their lack or urgency on Fitz shows that they don't see the gap between the two as worth worrying about.

Last year's situation may have been handled differently if it wasn't for a rookie head coach.  Think Bowles was in a tough spot.

It is what it is though.  So onto the "what if" scenario... 

1. 8-8 for a young QB with the sort of schedule we have this year is actually pretty good.  So yeah, I'd re-sign Geno.
2. Actually if there's even the possibility that Bowels and crew are considering starting Geno, even if it's a backup option, they should extend him short-term now for cheap.  As in a 2 year extension for like $3mil per year.  Worst case, we have a capable backup.  Best case, we have a solid starter for a few years for dirt cheap.

[jetswin]

On 3/12/2016 at 10:16 PM, MetsJets1962 said:

I mean i get that the Jets are playing a bit of brinkmanship here but it's clear they're not that high on him. do they actually see him as a legit starting QB. I  can't see him repeating last season's numbers and the more i think about it i'd rather take a punt on someone else. 

I don't think it's that the Jets are not high on Fitz, it's that they have him slotted at a level, and honestly I hope they have the entire team slotted. This is how to build a successful operation, not changing a game plan drastically on the fly. It would be crazy to think a franchise and GM acting this responsibly would not have contingency plans. Now the contingency plan may be Geno (oof) but I'm all in with Mac & Bowles right now.

[PatsFanTX]

I don't think it's that the Jets are not high on Fitz, it's that they have him slotted at a level, and honestly I hope they have the entire team slotted. This is how to build a successful operation, not changing a game plan drastically on the fly. It would be crazy to think a franchise and GM acting this responsibly would not have contingency plans. Now the contingency plan may be Geno (oof) but I'm all in with Mac & Bowles right now.

Somebody gets it.

Good post JDub!

[jetswin]

2 minutes ago, PatsFanTX said:

Somebody gets it.

Good post JDub!

Thanks TX...

[jamesr]

13 minutes ago, Mike135 said:

Last year's situation may have been handled differently if it wasn't for a rookie head coach.  Think Bowles was in a tough spot.

It is what it is though.  So onto the "what if" scenario... 

1. 8-8 for a young QB with the sort of schedule we have this year is actually pretty good.  So yeah, I'd re-sign Geno.
2. Actually if there's even the possibility that Bowels and crew are considering starting Geno, even if it's a backup option, they should extend him short-term now for cheap.  As in a 2 year extension for like $3mil per year.  Worst case, we have a capable backup.  Best case, we have a solid starter for a few years for dirt cheap.

How much would you re-sign Geno for off an 8-8 season? The going rate for starter QBs is $18m ... 

And why would Geno sign for $3m per when he can hit free agency next year and look to find a team that sees more in him than we do? Sorry, I don't buy that at all.

[ylekram]

26 minutes ago, Mike135 said:

Last year's situation may have been handled differently if it wasn't for a rookie head coach.  Think Bowles was in a tough spot.

It is what it is though.  So onto the "what if" scenario... 

1. 8-8 for a young QB with the sort of schedule we have this year is actually pretty good.  So yeah, I'd re-sign Geno.
2. Actually if there's even the possibility that Bowels and crew are considering starting Geno, even if it's a backup option, they should extend him short-term now for cheap.  As in a 2 year extension for like $3mil per year.  Worst case, we have a capable backup.  Best case, we have a solid starter for a few years for dirt cheap.

i think this is the absolute best case scenario, but thats just me

[Mike135]

18 minutes ago, jamesr said:

How much would you re-sign Geno for off an 8-8 season? The going rate for starter QBs is $18m ... 

And why would Geno sign for $3m per when he can hit free agency next year and look to find a team that sees more in him than we do? Sorry, I don't buy that at all.

Why would Geno sign now for cheap?  Maybe because he's looking at potentially being out of the league soon.  If he doesn't play this year, best case, he's signing for a couple mil as a backup somewhere else.

If he goes 8-8 this year what would I sign him for?  Too many variables man.  However, 8-8 this year would probably equate to somewhere around what Fitz did last year.  But of course Geno is younger, so he'd be worth more than whatever Fitz is now.  If young QBs on other teams that had similar performances are getting paid $xxx, then yeah you'd have to pay Geno that too.

[Mike135]

12 minutes ago, ylekram said:

i think this is the absolute best case scenario, but thats just me

Just to help ya imagine better scenarios...

http://forums.jetnation.com/topic/126421-bryce-petty-2016-expectations/?do=findComment&comment=3019001

[cant wait]

2 hours ago, jamesr said:

The logic is simple, yes ... but how do you know when you have your franchise guy?

Let's say we start Geno, let's say he throws 32 TD's, 14 INT's, we go 11-5 and make the play-offs. Is he "the guy"? Because you've got a heck of a decision to make on resigning him.

Really impossible to say based on stats alone, there's been plenty of QB's that have put up stats but are a product of the system they are in, just look at nick foles for instance... He had 27 TD/2INT playing for Kelly in 2013. You need to assess the situation and what the player has been asked to do before you can really evaluate them like that

[Rangers9]

According to Pro Football Talk there has been no action on the Fitz front. And all parties are waiting to see what happens to Kap. I did hear a few days ago that Mac raised his offer to Fitz above the 21 mil but not by much. So maybe the Jets are standing pat so they can save a few million dollars thinking that if Denver gets Kap he'll settle for that offer. We really don't know the exact money amount or whether Mac has sweetened it in the past few days. To me not worth taking a chance losing him for a few million even with our team's cap problems. They will have to cut someone anyways to be able to pay rookies contracts. They need something like about 4 mil for that. And according to reports we don't have it!

[cant wait]

11 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

According to Pro Football Talk there has been no action on the Fitz front. And all parties are waiting to see what happens to Kap. I did hear a few days ago that Mac raised his offer to Fitz above the 21 mil but not by much. So maybe the Jets are standing pat so they can save a few million dollars thinking that if Denver gets Kap he'll settle for that offer. We really don't know the exact money amount or whether Mac has sweetened it in the past few days. To me not worth taking a chance losing him for a few million even with our team's cap problems. They will have to cut someone anyways to be able to pay rookies contracts. They need something like about 4 mil for that. And according to reports we don't have it!

Where did you hear about mac upping the offer? PFT just reported about 2 hours ago that nothing has changed

 

 

[ljr]

2 hours ago, jetswin said:

I don't think it's that the Jets are not high on Fitz, it's that they have him slotted at a level, and honestly I hope they have the entire team slotted. This is how to build a successful operation, not changing a game plan drastically on the fly. It would be crazy to think a franchise and GM acting this responsibly would not have contingency plans. Now the contingency plan may be Geno (oof) but I'm all in with Mac & Bowles right now.

Agree ... And that responsibility fits the action going on with the bottom of our roster right now too.

reasonable deals are being offered to multiple players ... Some are working out ... Some we're being outbidded on ... But if plan A doesnt happen at a certain position... Then move to plan B there ... While simultaneously working on plans A, B, & C all over the place elsewhere on the roster as well.

very orderly & professional 

[Rangers9]

1 hour ago, cant wait said:

Where did you hear about mac upping the offer? PFT just reported about 2 hours ago that nothing has changed

 

 

Yeah I saw that and mentioned it. But a few days ago I read something that said Mac had slightly raised his initial offer. Since the free agency period opened. Plus we really don't know if there is ongoing conversation between the two parties and what the Jets current offer is. 

[Larz]

3 hours ago, jetswin said:

I don't think it's that the Jets are not high on Fitz, it's that they have him slotted at a level, and honestly I hope they have the entire team slotted. This is how to build a successful operation, not changing a game plan drastically on the fly. It would be crazy to think a franchise and GM acting this responsibly would not have contingency plans. Now the contingency plan may be Geno (oof) but I'm all in with Mac & Bowles right now.

how did you like those slots for revis cro and skrine ?

when he has money, he tends to over spend

he's just broke

[TuscanyTile2]

I hope the Jets treat him like the Mets treated Daniel Murphy.

[Jet Nut]

4 hours ago, Rangers9 said:

According to Pro Football Talk there has been no action on the Fitz front. And all parties are waiting to see what happens to Kap. I did hear a few days ago that Mac raised his offer to Fitz above the 21 mil but not by much. So maybe the Jets are standing pat so they can save a few million dollars thinking that if Denver gets Kap he'll settle for that offer. We really don't know the exact money amount or whether Mac has sweetened it in the past few days. To me not worth taking a chance losing him for a few million even with our team's cap problems. They will have to cut someone anyways to be able to pay rookies contracts. They need something like about 4 mil for that. And according to reports we don't have it!

I heard more than one report that they havent even talked in a while and the Jets have stood firm, believing theyve made a fair offer.  Where did you hear anything about Macc upping his offer?

[TuscanyTile2]

I know this might sound crazy to say considering the season he just had but I really only want FItz as a backup or as a 1 year starter if we draft a Goff/Wentz type.

[jetswin]

9 hours ago, Larz said:

how did you like those slots for revis cro and skrine ?

when he has money, he tends to over spend

he's just broke

completely different scenario last year, you can't compare the financial circumstances...that being said Skrine was a steal, Revis is still one of the best, and Cro was a necessity last year.

[Maxman]

3 hours ago, jetswin said:

completely different scenario last year, you can't compare the financial circumstances...that being said Skrine was a steal, Revis is still one of the best, and Cro was a necessity last year.

And Cro was a rental with no downside to cutting him this year.

[Rangers9]

10 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

I heard more than one report that they havent even talked in a while and the Jets have stood firm, believing theyve made a fair offer.  Where did you hear anything about Macc upping his offer?

Unless my memory is playing tricks on me again (they call it old age) I do remember sometime after free agency opened up, but not the past few days reading something that Mac sweetened his original offer slightly. But over the past few days like you say all sources say there is a stalemate. Which doesn't mean there isn't conversation between the two parties and negotiating. Maybe they are (past few days) talking but just not leaking any new info. We'll see soon but it looks like nothing will happen until the 49ers make a final decision on Kap. 

[Jet Nut]

3 hours ago, Rangers9 said:

Unless my memory is playing tricks on me again (they call it old age) I do remember sometime after free agency opened up, but not the past few days reading something that Mac sweetened his original offer slightly. But over the past few days like you say all sources say there is a stalemate. Which doesn't mean there isn't conversation between the two parties and negotiating. Maybe they are (past few days) talking but just not leaking any new info. We'll see soon but it looks like nothing will happen until the 49ers make a final decision on Kap. 

OK, just asking, I heard this too and was just wondering if I missed something.

I last heard the Jets havent moved, neither has Fitz.  They feel that that there has to be a compromise and the Jets will ultimately have to pay in the teens!   I disagree, 13 mil minimum is too much.

Interesting was Charlie Casserly this morning.  He ageed, no movement and he thinks the Jets shouldnt offer a penny more than the 7-8 they are rumored to have offered.  He thought 3 years, 21 mil was more than enough, would leave the Jets with too much dead money at the end of the deal.  And reiterated what we've heard, no one wants him at his asking price, he has no leverage.   

He went on to talk about Fitz being a weak arm QB and they are notorious for just falling off the map and fells that last season would be hard to duplicate.  Interesting.  Especially if he still is advising on even a casual level the Jets people

[slats]

9 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I know this might sound crazy to say considering the season he just had but I really only want FItz as a backup or as a 1 year starter if we draft a Goff/Wentz type.

Usually you do sound crazy. This time, you're probably echoing the conversations going on inside One Jets Drive right now. 

[Sperm Edwards]

23 hours ago, jamesr said:

I never said spend big for Fitz.

OK, let's play "what if" with Geno for a sec. What if he starts, and plays OK, and we go 8-8 or so, but don't make the play-offs. Then what? Resign him to a long term deal? No thanks. Let him walk? "But what if ..?". Franchise him? Probably our only option - another one year "prove it" deal (like Cousins in Washington) - but costly.

I feel that the organisation moved on from Geno last year. They had every excuse to play him when Fitz got hurt, and chose not to. They simply see him for what he is - a low price, adequate back up. Just my opinion of course - maybe their lack or urgency on Fitz shows that they don't see the gap between the two as worth worrying about.

I don't disagree with anything you say here and think Geno is out of the picture unless all of the following happen: Fitz doesn't return, Petty is horrible, and a 2016 draftee is as unready as Petty/Geno were as rookies. So forgetting about Geno starting for a minute, if you substitute Fitz where you typed "what if" re Geno, and then what do we do in 2017? Start Fitz again in 2018 because Bowles likes him the way Ryan liked Sanchez, and well he's under contract for $10-12M and no one else has seen a full game so let's go with him again in 2018?

I take for granted that any incumbent - unless he gets his face smashed in by a psychopath - will be the frontrunner to start the season. What that doesn't allow, though, is that another guy might have done better even if they don't look as good in practice. Look at Geno vs Fitz in practice, where I'm sure Geno's superior physical attributes made it easy to go with him. What if Petty (or a 2016 rookie) would look less ready over the summer, but by the time October rolls around, the first month of live action would have accelerated his growth to the point where he's now the best QB on the Jets? It happens.

I think part of the reason Mac doesn't want Fitz to have a starter's salary is because he wants it to be easier to bench him when the time comes; where "he's our starter" isn't chiseled into granite because he's getting paid like a starting QB for the next 2 seasons. Not the reason, of course, but I think it's a contributing reason.

[jamesr]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I don't disagree with anything you say here and think Geno is out of the picture unless all of the following happen: Fitz doesn't return, Petty is horrible, and a 2016 draftee is as unready as Petty/Geno were as rookies. So forgetting about Geno starting for a minute, if you substitute Fitz where you typed "what if" re Geno, and then what do we do in 2017? Start Fitz again in 2018 because Bowles likes him the way Ryan liked Sanchez, and well he's under contract for $10-12M and no one else has seen a full game so let's go with him again in 2018?

I take for granted that any incumbent - unless he gets his face smashed in by a psychopath - will be the frontrunner to start the season. What that doesn't allow, though, is that another guy might have done better even if they don't look as good in practice. Look at Geno vs Fitz in practice, where I'm sure Geno's superior physical attributes made it easy to go with him. What if Petty (or a 2016 rookie) would look less ready over the summer, but by the time October rolls around, the first month of live action would have accelerated his growth to the point where he's now the best QB on the Jets? It happens.

I think part of the reason Mac doesn't want Fitz to have a starter's salary is because he wants it to be easier to bench him when the time comes; where "he's our starter" isn't chiseled into granite because he's getting paid like a starting QB for the next 2 seasons. Not the reason, of course, but I think it's a contributing reason.

Totally agree ... it's always easy to move on when the incumbent isn't getting the job done, and if Fitz has another "oh so close" year next year we'll be in a very similar position (though probably without the contract issue, as I doubt he'll ever accept a one year deal). That's possibly another factor in the stand off ... it's easy to say Jets are offering X years at Y million, but depending on how it's structured it could very easily end up being a one year deal. I don't see Fitz's camp wanting to play that game.

 

[Sperm Edwards]

6 hours ago, jamesr said:

Totally agree ... it's always easy to move on when the incumbent isn't getting the job done, and if Fitz has another "oh so close" year next year we'll be in a very similar position (though probably without the contract issue, as I doubt he'll ever accept a one year deal). That's possibly another factor in the stand off ... it's easy to say Jets are offering X years at Y million, but depending on how it's structured it could very easily end up being a one year deal. I don't see Fitz's camp wanting to play that game.

 

No I wouldn't think that a 1 year deal would be what Fitz wants. He knows he's not likely to repeat those numbers in 2016. If he was so cock-sure he could probably swing a deal with the low guaranteed base he's been offered so far, plus doubling that if he does meet/exceed those numbers again (at least 15 starts, 4000 yds, 30+ TDs, under 20 turnovers). Because if he doesn't (where the team might want him to be their starter again in 2017) then the team would - and should - be looking to give someone else a try for the final month or more this season.

[Il Mostro]

22 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

No I wouldn't think that a 1 year deal would be what Fitz wants. He knows he's not likely to repeat those numbers in 2016. If he was so cock-sure he could probably swing a deal with the low guaranteed base he's been offered so far, plus doubling that if he does meet/exceed those numbers again (at least 15 starts, 4000 yds, 30+ TDs, under 20 turnovers). Because if he doesn't (where the team might want him to be their starter again in 2017) then the team would - and should - be looking to give someone else a try for the final month or more this season.

Real men bet on themselves.  And then they double-down. 

[Sperm Edwards]

2 minutes ago, Il Mostro said:

Real men bet on themselves.  And then they double-down. 

Hahaha. Yeah, I hardly think he would want that as a first choice. If I were in his position I - like you or anyone else here - would be holding out for as much as I could get. Just like he is. He'll end up with something, and his worst-case scenario is probably the same as what the Jets offered him already (though we don't know for sure what that was, let alone how much was guaranteed).

But if his negotiating rationale is that he should be paid a certain amount based on what he did, the implication is he will be worth that again (or otherwise his argument is he's looking for someone to fork over supplemental back-pay). 

Without getting injured, if he has a 3400 yard, 23 TD, 20 INT season - or was on pace for as much when his 2016 team benched him in favor of getting a younger arm some PT - somehow I doubt he would offer to give half a $16M salary back. About as much as I'd expect him to void a second guaranteed year that the team would then want to get out of. From that standpoint, a $7M-ish base salary, with a bunch of incentives for repeating his 2015 production, isn't exactly unfair or unreasonable. It isn't like he's been putting up those numbers for years. He had a perfect storm season. Good for him, and the Jets benefitted from it, but that doesn't mean it's therefore in any way probable to happen again.

[RutgersJetFan]

3 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

If he was so cock-sure

The man has 42 kids, pretty sure he's got that one covered.

[The Crusher]

3 hours ago, RutgersJetFan said:

The man has 42 kids, pretty sure he's got that one covered.

Oh big deal.  Brigham Young had that many wives.  

[Il Mostro]

11 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Hahaha. Yeah, I hardly think he would want that as a first choice. If I were in his position I - like you or anyone else here - would be holding out for as much as I could get. Just like he is. He'll end up with something, and his worst-case scenario is probably the same as what the Jets offered him already (though we don't know for sure what that was, let alone how much was guaranteed).

But if his negotiating rationale is that he should be paid a certain amount based on what he did, the implication is he will be worth that again (or otherwise his argument is he's looking for someone to fork over supplemental back-pay). 

Without getting injured, if he has a 3400 yard, 23 TD, 20 INT season - or was on pace for as much when his 2016 team benched him in favor of getting a younger arm some PT - somehow I doubt he would offer to give half a $16M salary back. About as much as I'd expect him to void a second guaranteed year that the team would then want to get out of. From that standpoint, a $7M-ish base salary, with a bunch of incentives for repeating his 2015 production, isn't exactly unfair or unreasonable. It isn't like he's been putting up those numbers for years. He had a perfect storm season. Good for him, and the Jets benefitted from it, but that doesn't mean it's therefore in any way probable to happen again.

Yep.  And he knows it -- that Harvard pedegree and all.

[Ohio State NY Jets fan]

Here we go, players starting to chime in now;

Colon: If Fitz doesn't come back, give Geno another try

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000645800/article/colon-if-fitz-doesnt-come-back-give-geno-another-try

[Scott Dierking]

On March 19, 2016 at 1:24 AM, Sperm Edwards said:

Hahaha. Yeah, I hardly think he would want that as a first choice. If I were in his position I - like you or anyone else here - would be holding out for as much as I could get. Just like he is. He'll end up with something, and his worst-case scenario is probably the same as what the Jets offered him already (though we don't know for sure what that was, let alone how much was guaranteed).

But if his negotiating rationale is that he should be paid a certain amount based on what he did, the implication is he will be worth that again (or otherwise his argument is he's looking for someone to fork over supplemental back-pay). 

Without getting injured, if he has a 3400 yard, 23 TD, 20 INT season - or was on pace for as much when his 2016 team benched him in favor of getting a younger arm some PT - somehow I doubt he would offer to give half a $16M salary back. About as much as I'd expect him to void a second guaranteed year that the team would then want to get out of. From that standpoint, a $7M-ish base salary, with a bunch of incentives for repeating his 2015 production, isn't exactly unfair or unreasonable. It isn't like he's been putting up those numbers for years. He had a perfect storm season. Good for him, and the Jets benefitted from it, but that doesn't mean it's therefore in any way probable to happen again.

Fitz and his agent have to overcome the amnesia that he has been cut or traded by 5 teams in the last 7 years. He has not drunk form the fountain of youth, nor was there the proverbial light bulb that went off. He was put in a good situation where he was able to prosper. Good for him, and good for the team.

But, that does not mean that he is now an upper echelon qb, with franchise abilities.

The Jets realize what he is, and now he needs to as well-He is a qb who will help serve as the bridge to the future. He is not alone in that he can do this. But he would be a solid choice.

That is where this really is.