### Jets \ Lions -- Preseason Week Two, Game Thread ###

[T0mShane]

Just now, Jet Nut said:

No, we went all out for a short term fix and won 10 games.  Just because it didn't last doesn't mean you abandon FA.  There isnt a chance in hell that we're not supplementing the draft with signings next season.  There isn't a reason we shouldn't, that's what the cap space is for. 

The reason you shouldn't is because you just did and the guys who spent all that money the first time proved entirely incapable of spending it wisely.

[Jet Nut]

Just now, thadude said:

He is not a rookie you idiot

I said basically.  You are the idiot who can't read or come with an answer to your idiotic attempt to compare Hack to Wilson.  That's what a total idiot does.  You just make shlt up as always and then troll a thread.  

[56mehl56]

1 minute ago, thadude said:

What are you seeing that even looks average?

Pocket awareness is as much mental as it is physical . Brady has fantastic pocket awareness but is really an average athlete. Hack by all accounts is an extremely football smart QB , he'll learn from these types of negative situations. They'll break down film with him and he'll learn how to audible better to avoid unfavorable matchups. The big question is if the Oline will gel quickly enough to keep any of our QB's alive. 

[Jet Nut]

Just now, T0mShane said:

The reason you shouldn't is because you just did and the guys who spent all that money the first time proved entirely incapable of spending it wisely.

They spent what they had to spend, were forced to spend and took a 4 win team to 10 wins and what normally would be a playoff spot.  Revis and Cro falling apart at the seams and Marshall becoming ineffective with Fritz's historically bad season doesn't mean you never try again.  

No team has spent more on FA than the Yankees.  Didn't always get them the results but didn't stop them to going all in again and winning.  

[T0mShane]

1 minute ago, Jet Nut said:

They spent what they had to spend, were forced to spend and took a 4 win team to 10 wins and what normally would be a playoff spot.  Revis and Cro falling apart at the seams and Marshall becoming ineffective with Fritz's historically bad season doesn't mean you never try again.  

No team has spent more on FA than the Yankees.  Didn't always get them the results but didn't stop them to going all in again and winning.  

this is some lithium-infused sh*t right here 

[Jet Nut]

2 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

this is some lithium-infused sh*t right here 

No, it's actually what happened that season.  

Lithium wasn't needed.  Nothing untrue

 

[T0mShane]

1 minute ago, Jet Nut said:

No, it's actually what happened that season.  

Lithium wasn't needed.  

"Yeah I know it looks bad now but my coupon to the snake store was about to expire and.." 

 

[BigRy56]

12 hours ago, RoadFan said:

What the EFF did you expect, "Big Rah!?!"

Some of us have been telling you for months, this roster is horrible, has no OL, and that Hack is not worthy of a roster spot.

Some just didn't wanna hear it.  Some believed only what they wanted to believe, heard only what they wanted to hear, saw only what they wanted to see.

Reminds me of something else... like from November...

Petty has a future as an NFL backup. Hack should be selling insurance in Podunk, Pennsylvania.

Giving yourself way too much credit here my man. You're not breaking any new ground... nobody expects the Jets to be a good football team.

Regardless of expectations, it doesn't make it any less painful to watch the kind of offense we saw last night.

[dbatesman]

30 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

this is some lithium-infused sh*t right here 

The Jets are basically the Yankees

[The Crusher]

58 minutes ago, thadude said:

He is not a rookie you idiot

No personal attacks. Please. Thanks. 

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

There was no competition and Geno played well in the preseason.  You have no friggen idea that Fitz was still better than what we would have gotten if Geno played last season. His one partial game was better than what Fitz was giving us.  

I need to deal with what?  You rewriting history, putting words in my mouth and still pimping the shlttiest QB in the league?  Whatever happened you'll insist you were right and just wanting Geno to be given a shot makes me a Geno lover or somehow wrong?  Geno didn't lose by getting punched, he couldn't play and Fitz got to start by default.  He earned nothing, somehow this eludes the Fitz pimps.  Gets replaced with the kind of BS you posted.  Geno completely outplayed Fitz the following preseason but the 10 wins and the 12 mil bought Fitz his historical blow up season.  Don't tell me what happened and to deal with it.  It's the Fitz pimps who want to gloss over their unbelievably bad choice and can't deal with the fact that a whole off-season of singing his praises, ridiculing Geno and somehow it went so bad that all you're left with is to go into attack mode claiming and rewriting history.

 

Keep dreaming the dream Nut.  One day, like SAR with Sanchez, your man Geno will prove us all wrong, I'm sure of it.  

Till then, fight last years fight with someone else.  You bore me with this same old same old "I was right about Geno!" meme, when it's obvious there was no "right" in a Geno vs. Fitz competition, just two different flavors of recycled sh*te.  

That's the difference, I KNOW Fitz was horrible, and said it repeatedly, and am glad he's gone (despite not having anyone better on the roster today).  You can't seem to accept you were wrong about Geno Smith, it's STILL the same old "but, but, but muh fair chances and weapionz!!" meme with guys like you, and now (just like like SAR with Sanchez) we're going to have to wade through a decade or more of "I was right about Geno!" foolishness?  

Christ, that's tiresome.  So fight it out with someone else.  Geno is a Giant.  Fitz is a Buc.  Go find their fans and tell them how "right" you were.

 

[Warfish]

2 hours ago, August said:

So you use Tom Brady as an example? One of the few quarterbacks in history that took average talent at receiver and made them better than they were? How about surrounding your young developing quarterback with talent so you can evaluate him better? That's what normal NFL franchises does. 

I'm all for it.  In point of fact, I have BEEN arguing for drafting Offense for many years now.  Our constant focus in the top rounds on Defense, and reach picks like Geno and Hack, are a huge part fo whay we are where we are today.

With that said, Brady is just an example.  Franchise QB's make RB's and WR's into name players.  WR's do not make QB's into franchise QB's.

We can all lament our young WR corp (as young as Hack, so why give one a pass?) and that we don't have All-Pro talent at the other 10 O side spots.  

Or we can judge Hack (and any QB) on THEIR play, even if they play of others is weak.  So far, Hack doesn't look good on his own play.  He must improve materially if he's to be anything less than the #3 QB his play has earned so far.

[T0mShane]

Guys, it's just one game. And last year. And every scouting report. And his college career. And his high school career. And practice. Show some patience. He was a five star.

[Mogglez]

4 hours ago, dbatesman said:

Oh good, free agency, awesome

Free agency can work as long as you spend the money right. The 08 off-season netted us the best O-Line in football for 5+ years.  09's & 10's free agency got pieces on defense that helped us get to back-to-back AFC championship games. 

The undoing of those teams was that there was never good players drafted to replace the guys signed when they ultimately aged or needed to be replaced with younger cheaper players

[thadude]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

I said basically.  You are the idiot who can't read or come with an answer to your idiotic attempt to compare Hack to Wilson.  That's what a total idiot does.  You just make shlt up as always and then troll a thread.  

Basically you are totally wrong 

[thadude]

36 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

No personal attacks. Please. Thanks. 

Sorry

[August]

17 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I'm all for it.  In point of fact, I have BEEN arguing for drafting Offense for many years now.  Our constant focus in the top rounds on Defense, and reach picks like Geno and Hack, are a huge part fo whay we are where we are today.

With that said, Brady is just an example.  Franchise QB's make RB's and WR's into name players.  WR's do not make QB's into franchise QB's.

We can all lament our young WR corp (as young as Hack, so why give one a pass?) and that we don't have All-Pro talent at the other 10 O side spots.  

Or we can judge Hack (and any QB) on THEIR play, even if they play of others is weak.  So far, Hack doesn't look good on his own play.  He must improve materially if he's to be anything less than the #3 QB his play has earned so far.

Hackenberg doesn't look good and that's a fact he made mistakes that had nothing to do with the surrounding cast. I get that. But there is also 2 side of the coin. And that the receiving corp isn't good. For a veteran like McCown who's experienced and can do a little more with less you can get away with it. Look around the league and look at how teams with young quarterbacks made sure to surround their quarterback with talent. The Rams drafted a guy and then went out and traded for Sammy Watkins to go along with Gurley, Tavon, and Britt. The Jags gave Bortles, Robinson, Lee, Hurns, The Raiders gave Carr Cooper and Crabtree, The Eagles gave Wentz Jeffery, Smith and the TE's, The Titans gave Mariotta Murray, Walker, Sharp and Decker, Winston has Evans, Jackson and I can go on and on. We want Hackenberg to be the guy and we gave him Enunwa (who's showed promise but unproven as a 1 receiver and now he's gone for the year) Robbie Anderson, Jalen Marshall, and Peake to go along with TE ASJ. Hackenberg probably sucks but I'd like for us to give him some weapons and completely eliminate all doubt. 

 

Let me add that Geno did look good/decent when he had healthy weapons around him. 

[thadude]

5 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

Free agency can work as long as you spend the money right. The 08 off-season netted us the best O-Line in football for 5+ years.  09's & 10's free agency got pieces on defense that helped us get to back-to-back AFC championship games. 

The undoing of those teams was that there was never good players drafted to replace the guys signed when they ultimately aged or needed to be replaced with younger cheaper players

Every year we keep drafting these defensive players high and are told they are the greatest thing ever and every year Brady just carves them up

 

 

Maybe if we had an offense that could stay on the field our defense might play better

[thadude]

14 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Guys, it's just one game. And last year. And every scouting report. And his college career. And his high school career. And practice. Show some patience. He was a five star.

Hack didn't even look good week 1 of preseason.  It was all scripted checkdown throw the RB BS facing a bad defense that wasn't even trying and he still turned the ball over and scored no points

[thadude]

4 minutes ago, August said:

Hackenberg doesn't look good and that's a fact he made mistakes that had nothing to do with the surrounding cast. I get that. But there is also 2 side of the coin. And that the receiving corp isn't good. For a veteran like McCown who's experienced and can do a little more with less you can get away with it. Look around the league and look at how teams with young quarterbacks made sure to surround their quarterback with talent. The Rams drafted a guy and then went out and traded for Sammy Watkins to go along with Gurley, Tavon, and Britt. The Jags gave Bortles, Robinson, Lee, Hurns, The Raiders gave Carr Cooper and Crabtree, The Eagles gave Wentz Jeffery, Smith and the TE's, The Titans gave Mariotta Murray, Walker, Sharp and Decker, Winston has Evans, Jackson and I can go on and on. We want Hackenberg to be the guy and we gave him Enunwa (who's showed promise but unproven as a 1 receiver and now he's gone for the year) Robbie Anderson, Jalen Marshall, and Peake to go along with TE ASJ. Hackenberg probably sucks but I'd like for us to give him some weapons and completely eliminate all doubt. 

 

Let me add that Geno did look good/decent when he had healthy weapons around him. 

You really think if we still had Marshall and Decker Hack would be playing well?

 

Where do the excuses end?!?!

 

[August]

1 minute ago, thadude said:

You really think if we still had Marshall and Decker Hack would be playing well?

 

Where do the excuses end?!?!

 

Probably not, but at least we wouldn't be having this discussion. At least we would've been able to say that we surrounded Hackenberg with talent and he still stunk. We would've eliminated all doubts and there would be no excuses. 

[Mogglez]

4 minutes ago, thadude said:

Every year we keep drafting these defensive players high and are told they are the greatest thing ever and every year Brady just carves them up

 

 

Maybe if we had an offense that could stay on the field our defense might play better

What does any of that have to do with what I said in regards to Free Agency?  

My point is that you can't build a successful team by being cheap or by drafting poorly.  Ideally you want a balance and more often than not, that is what leads to long-term success.

[thadude]

Just now, Mogglez said:

What does any of that have to do with what I said in regards to Free Agency?  

My point is that you can't build a successful team by being cheap or by drafting poorly.  Ideally you want a balance and more often than not, that is what leads to long-term success.

Our last 6 drafts have been an abomination.  The last semi-decent draft we had was 2011 when we got Wilk and Kerley otherwise it's been a horror show

[thadude]

3 minutes ago, August said:

Probably not, but at least we wouldn't be having this discussion. At least we would've been able to say that we surrounded Hackenberg with talent and he still stunk. We would've eliminated all doubts and there would be no excuses. 

Hack would suck with the 1999 Rams offensive roster.  Give it a rest

[The Crusher]

13 minutes ago, thadude said:

Sorry

I get it. We are all frustrated as hell. If it helps you can call me fat any time you like. 

[The Crusher]

11 minutes ago, thadude said:

Hack would suck with the 1999 Rams offensive roster.  Give it a rest

Yeah but head to head I think he gives Curt Warner a run for his money bagging groceries. 

[Mogglez]

16 minutes ago, thadude said:

Our last 6 drafts have been an abomination.  The last semi-decent draft we had was 2011 when we got Wilk and Kerley otherwise it's been a horror show

2012 - horrible.

2013 - was, overall, a horrendous class.  Especially when you look back at it now.  We ended up being one of the few teams with a highly successful player from that class.

2014 - a nightmare of unheard of proportions.  At least Enunwa ended up ok.  He was the only player I liked from that draft. 

2015 - This class netted us Leonard Williams and will turn 3 years old this season.  Smith will likely go down as a guy who had his career derailed by injury.  It sucks.  We'll get to see if he can salvage himself next year.  If Mauldin ends up being a decent rotational guy who can moderately rush the passer, he was a good 3rd round pick.  Petty will likely be a decent, cheap, solid, back up.  Not a bad return from a 4th round QB.  We used our 5th on Brandon Marshall and Jarvis Harrison.  No 6th.  7th netted us Deion Simon who has looked pretty good in his limited time.  I think he'll be our future DT/NT and be a good player.  

A draft, typically, is given 3 full years to be judged. 2016 & 2017 are too young to grade as a whole.  

That is how I'll grade them.  Nothing more.  Nothing less.

[thadude]

1 minute ago, Mogglez said:

2012 - horrible.

2013 - was, overall, a horrendous class.  Especially when you look back at it now.  We ended up being one of the few teams with a highly successful player from that class.

2014 - a nightmare of unheard of proportions. 

2015 - This class netted us Leonard Williams and will turn 3 years old this season.  Smith will likely go down as a guy who had his career derailed by injury.  It sucks.  We'll get to see if he can salvage himself next year.  If Mauldin ends up being a decent rotational guy who can moderately rush the passer, he was a good 3rd round pick.  Petty will likely be a decent, cheap, back up.  Not bad from a 4th round QB.  We used our 5th on Brandon Marshall and Jarvis Harrison.  No 6th.  7th netted us Deion Simon who has looked pretty good in his limited time.  I think he'll be our future DT/NT and be a good player.  

A draft, typically, is given 3 full years to be judged. 2016 & 2017 are too young to grade as a whole.  

That is how I'll grade them.  Nothing more.  Nothing less.

Outside of Leo Mac has not drafted a good player and I'm including 2017 and those two JAG safeties

[thadude]

3 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

Yeah but head to head I think he gives Curt Warner a run for his money bagging groceries. 

Lol

[Jet Nut]

51 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Keep dreaming the dream Nut.  One day, like SAR with Sanchez, your man Geno will prove us all wrong, I'm sure of it.  

Till then, fight last years fight with someone else.  You bore me with this same old same old "I was right about Geno!" meme, when it's obvious there was no "right" in a Geno vs. Fitz competition, just two different flavors of recycled sh*te.  

That's the difference, I KNOW Fitz was horrible, and said it repeatedly, and am glad he's gone (despite not having anyone better on the roster today).  You can't seem to accept you were wrong about Geno Smith, it's STILL the same old "but, but, but muh fair chances and weapionz!!" meme with guys like you, and now (just like like SAR with Sanchez) we're going to have to wade through a decade or more of "I was right about Geno!" foolishness?  

Christ, that's tiresome.  So fight it out with someone else.  Geno is a Giant.  Fitz is a Buc.  Go find their fans and tell them how "right" you were.

 

One more stupid post where you call Geno my guy.  That's your answer to the incredible bad job you did by pimping Fitz.  Keep the imaginary idea that he was my guy.  One that you can't find a single post where I said that.  Now let's fast forward to your posts.  The countless posts proclaiming Fitz your guy.  The countless posts where you ridiculed anyone who challenged that idea. That's your fallback.  That's one hell of a losers take.  At least you're consistent.  You've never been close to right by anyone you wanted at QB.  All you're left with is trying to bring everyone else down to your level.  Yes, you now want a medal for admitting the obvious, Fitz sucked.  After you picked him as your guy though.  But people like me who wanted an open competition, who made no predictions of how good Geno would be, just that he deserved a chance are the clueless.  All you've done for the last year is try and defend putting your faith in a failure.  And pat yourself on the back for admitting he did suck.  But ignoring those of us who predicted he would suck.  And coming to the illogical conclusion that predicting he would suck means we loved Geno.  There's logic at its finest, but you come back for more, bringing up the talk.  

All the logic in the world is tiresome to your excuse making ass.  I should fight with someone else?  You answered me, I never post to you, you rarely if ever make any sense.  SAR, Geno, Sanchez, complaints over the lack of weapons one season, whoever or whatever else you can dream up to cloud the waters and lesson how totally off base you were.  Keep,attacking the idea that Geno should have gotten a chance.  You sound so smart turning that into loving some Geno.  You can't seem to accept that it's another pointless conclusion in a series of pointless posts.  

[thadude]

Why is anyone still discussing Geno?

[dbatesman]

38 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

Free agency can work as long as you spend the money right. The 08 off-season netted us the best O-Line in football for 5+ years.  

This is categorically false.

39 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

09's & 10's free agency got pieces on defense that helped us get to back-to-back AFC championship games. 

Then what happened?

39 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

The undoing of those teams was that there was never good players drafted to replace the guys signed when they ultimately aged or needed to be replaced with younger cheaper players

No one ever drafts good players to replace the guys they sign. That's entirely the problem with free agency.

[Mogglez]

33 minutes ago, thadude said:

Outside of Leo Mac has not drafted a good player and I'm including 2017 and those two JAG safeties

History likely won't be kind to you with that evaluation of Adams and Maye.  Maybe for once you should be patient and not overreact.  You sound like the guys who were upset over Leo being drafted at 6 instead of Kevin White during his rookie year.  Those guys probably feel pretty stupid right about now.  My only problem with those selections is that I would have gone Jamal Adams and Dalvin Cook.  Not Marcus Maye.  Both safeties will probably be good players.  Maybe even great.  I still wanted a weapon like DC to bolster the offense.

I regards to last year's class, Lee has looked improved, Jordan Jenkins has come on nicely, Burris has played well, Shell has played well, Lachlan Edwards had a great game last night, if Charone Peake never improves beyond what he is now (decent rotational depth WR) than he was a 7th well spent.  Robby Anderson was a very good UDFA signing.  There is a decent amount of hope for last years draft class/UDFAs.

I'm not even going to entertain the idea of finalizing the careers of guys we drafted this year.  That is beyond stupid.  Even you should know that.

I don't know what to think of Macc anymore.  I'm indifferent to letting him go after this year at this point because I'm tired of arguing about it.  If you like him you won't change your mind.  If you've hated him from day one, you won't change your mind.  It is what it is.  Personally speaking, I don't love every single thing he has done but there are some good things there underneath the sh*t were dealing with now.  Right now, gun to my head?  Give him one more chance, let him pick his own head coach (he didn't select or hire Bowles) draft a 1st round QB like Darnold/Rosen/Rudolph/Allen, and let him spend money in FA to bolster the roster while he continues to build a team through the draft.  Reggie McKenzie was looking like a total failure in Oakland before he got Carr.  Now he is considered one of the best GMs in the league.  That is how much finding a QB can change things.

[Mogglez]

19 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

This is categorically false.

Agree to disagree.  Faneca & Woody were humongous pieces for us from '08 through the '10-'11 season.

Then what happened?

Trader Mike failed to supplement his aging vets with young guys via the draft and backloaded contracts coupled with his inability to hang on to picks and not trade them were his undoing.

No one ever drafts good players to replace the guys they sign. That's entirely the problem with free agency.

The Steelers, Packers, (The current) Raiders, Giants, and Seahawks would likely disagree with this.  These are teams that have done an excellent job of maintaining that balance.  If I'm being honest though, they can do this because they also found their franchise QBs and draft well enough where they don't have to spend year after year.  We need to do that above all else.

It's good discussion, but I don't think either one of us are going to change the others mind.  I just don't have a problem with paying for players...as long as it's the right players at the right price.

[JetFaninMI]

3 hours ago, 56mehl56 said:

Again, massive over reaction. There's a legion of Jet fans who just lie in wait for for bad things to happen , so they can thump their chests and say I'm right and know more than the Jets FO.

This is a rebuild , they need to evaluate what we have at almost every position on offense and a few on defense. What do we expect would happen with the gameplan and skill position players that we have on offense. Its frustrating , hell were all frustrated as Jet fans, but I'd rather lose with the inexperienced guys and hope to build something than plug in overpriced veterans and be simply mediocre.

Its gonna be a rough road but for the first time in awhile I feel the Jets are doing it right and we might come out of this better on the flipside.

Again massive bunch of bullspit. Yes its a rebuild but so far Macc has made all the WRONG moves. He is not to be trusted with that high draft pick they will almost assuredly have and all that cap space based on his moves so far in this process. All of his draft picks except for the no-brainers have dismally failed. The only good part of his FA signings are the way the contracts were structured. Performance wise they were sorely lacking. Stop the bullspit and OPEN YOUR EYES. I am all for the rebuild but Macc is not the guy to be the one to do it. This is based on his track record so far and not a case of someone saying they could do it better.