SAM AT THE HALF WAY POINT

[HelenOfTroy]

Damn, just Kumba Freakin’ Ya.  

[14 in Green]

14 minutes ago, Jets723 said:

Thanks dude appreciate it. 14 in Green was kinda bashing me for no reason. I tried explaining to him that Villain and I were just messing around 

The reason I "bashed you" was because you left villain 2 butt fumbles. It's over and done as far as I'm concerned. Sorry for your loss,

[14 in Green]

3 minutes ago, HelenOfTroy said:

Damn, just Kumba Freakin’ Ya.  

You're a little scamp, aren't you? 

[Jets723]

6 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

The reason I "bashed you" was because you left villain 2 butt fumbles. It's over and done as far as I'm concerned. Sorry for your loss, don't stress over a football thread. We're good I hope.

The "butt fumbles" were clearly a joke. Had nothing to do with insulting the argument. Villain acknowledged we were both just messing around

[HelenOfTroy]

1 minute ago, 14 in Green said:

You're a little scamp, aren't you? 

These boards are so tame compared to my college boards....we have no word filters, free for all’s, millions of dead horses beat to powder.  Guys acting like girls, girls acting like guys.

Then everyone settles down, discuss recruiting, tailgate menus, university business, etc.  

I was a moderator on those boards.  It’s the Wild, Wild West. ?

[14 in Green]

6 minutes ago, Jets723 said:

The "butt fumbles" were clearly a joke. Had nothing to do with insulting the argument. Villain acknowledged we were both just messing around

Just own it and stop with the nonsense. I'm not going back and forth like he did.

[HelenOfTroy]

12 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

The reason I "bashed you" was because you left villain 2 butt fumbles. It's over and done as far as I'm concerned. Sorry for your loss, don't stress over a football thread. We're good I hope.

I really, really don’t like buttfumbles...but if there is anyone that does not give a damn, it’s villain.  ?

I like him too.

[Jets723]

Just now, 14 in Green said:

Just own it and stop with the nonsense. I'm not going back and forth like he did.

Own what?  At least Patriot Killa is a awesome poster

[Jets723]

1 minute ago, HelenOfTroy said:

I really, really don’t like buttfumbles...but if there is anyone that does not give a damn, it’s villain.  ?

I like him too.

Exactly.  It was just having fun after having a real sh*tty week

[14 in Green]

7 minutes ago, HelenOfTroy said:

I really, really don’t like buttfumbles...but if there is anyone that does not give a damn, it’s villain.  ?

I like him too.

this 723 guy may turn into tonights nico. I've got a feeling we haven't heard the end of him. Keep that Adam Sandler clip handy.... EDIT I tried to post this before he just quoted both of us.. I'm getting good at this

[HelenOfTroy]

OK, stop it!! Enough, everyone to their rooms, or it’s the belt!!!!  ???

[HelenOfTroy]

47 minutes ago, Jets723 said:

I never said he didnt have legit points.  I agreed with most of them. Like I mentioned I was just trying to lighten the mood.  TBH I had a death in the family recently and have been very down so just trying to snap myself out of it a little but its hard

I’m sorry, that’s so difficult, glad that you can come here and kick the can with us heartless bums while you’re grieving. 

God Bless. 

[Jets723]

1 minute ago, HelenOfTroy said:

I’m sorry, that’s so difficult, glad that you can come here and kick the can with us heartless bums while you’re grieving. 

God Bless. 

 

11 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

this 723 guy may turn into tonights nico. I've got a feeling we haven't heard the end of him. Keep that Adam Sandler clip handy.... EDIT I tried to post this before he just quoted both of us.. I'm getting good at this

Look man lets just start over.  I just wanted to say thanks for the condolences it means alot.  How do you think darnold will do next year? Do you like his progression?

[14 in Green]

How am I supposed to worry about Sam's development? I can't stop thinking of @HelenOfTroy beating me with a belt...

[JustInFudge]

15 hours ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

Don’t look at it as giving up on Darnold. Fans get way too attached to individual players. What we have in Darnold is a range of potential outcomes. The aggregate of these outcomes has a certain present value, but this average is never going to be realized as such. Instead he’s either going to be a legit second-contract guy, or he’s not but will be incorrectly resigned, or he’s not going to be resigned. We’re not going to be able to make that distinction with a whole lot more certainty after sixteen starts than we were after eight, so when the draft comes we’re going to have to approximate the value of Darnold’s potential with a view of deciding whether further significant investment in the position is justified. That’s basic, I think. But what you have to keep in mind is that the opportunity cost of drafting a quarterback high is very low compared to the replacement cost of acquiring one on the open market and also that legit prospects are movable at a profit. If acquiring a real live franchise quarterback on a rookie contract is worth a first and three seconds (and it is), then it’s worth two firsts and three seconds too (and again, it is). This is the new paradigm. Being relatively high on Darnold and favoring additional investment to shore up the position are not mutually exclusive. If our big problem turns out to be that Darnold is the guy and we ‘wasted’ a pick on a quarterback that could have been used on weppinz, then we have no problems.

This is all great in theory and you cant really argue with any of the logic.  However, there a few factors albeit more emotionally driven that would still prevent me from taking this course of action in the Jets situation.  Number 1 being, I like Sam Darnold a lot.  I think he's a star in the making and is currently in the worst possible environment for a rookie QB.  So, my preference would be to work to change his surroundings before I'm looking to replace him after 8 games.  The other factor, I dont think any of the incoming QB's hold a candle to Sam.  I clearly could be totally off on both subjects but that's factoring into my opinion that drafting a new QB in the 1st round is a ridiculous thought. 

I think it's ironic you call the fans out for being too attached to players but if anything, NFL franchises have shown much more patience than the fans.  Your idea, has it's literally never happened in the NFL.  So while it all sounds good and great when you type it out and make extremely valid points, no team at least in the modern era has ever taken a QB in the 1st round, let alone the top 3 and then followed it up the next season by drafting another QB in the first round....and plenty of teams have had the opportunity.  

I also think this urgency to get to a SB while your QB is on this rookie deal is way overblown.  Sure it helps but for as much as some people around here make of it, how many teams have actually done it in the last 20 years, 3?  4?  Wilson, Flacco, Big Ben, Brady - who else?  I dont know, it seems to me that it's probably more important to just have the guy and build around him than it is to keep drafting a QB every 1st round because you're not 100% sure about the guy you just drafted last year.  

[Jet Nut]

18 minutes ago, JiF said:

I also think this urgency to get to a SB while your QB is on this rookie deal is way overblown.  Sure it helps but for as much as some people around here make of it, how many teams have actually done it in the last 20 years, 3?  4?  Wilson, Flacco, Big Ben, Brady - who else?  I dont know, it seems to me that it's probably more important to just have the guy and build around him than it is to keep drafting a QB every 1st round because you're not 100% sure about the guy you just drafted last year.  

Exactly.  Keep hearing about needing to get it done under the first deal but as you said, how often has that happened.  As we've seen proven over and over the majority of FQBs come from high picks, high picks usually go to really bad teams.  So as nice as it would be to win under that first deal given the developmental time of a QB and of a roster it's probably not happening and not a big negative on an organization 

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

Seven of the top ten quarterbacks in DVOA are guys who have been there for a decade. And that’s just the top ten; I mean, is the whole top third really elite? Do you want to have THE guy, or are you willing to settle for having A guy? I don’t especially care that nobody else looks at stuff this way yet.

[#27TheDominator]

This thread seemed to be off the rails for a bit there before Aten started spouting about opportunity cost and I became a bit more interested.  I didn't read all 7 pages, but did anybody complain about his lack of arm strength?  I get that everybody piled on Matt for saying Darnold's not the guy, but that is my main concern.  Draft a guy that high and give up that much capital and I want a cannon.  I don't see one.  I see that as a big reason to be scared about his cold weather/wind performance.  He dropped some really nice balls into tight windows.  Almost all were incomplete.  All the people that think Kearse is worth $5M per might want to rethink that.  

BTW, not wearing a glove is not an indicator of anything as far as the cold weather.  Almost nobody wears gloves. 

[Creepy Lurker]

20 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Exactly.  Keep hearing about needing to get it done under the first deal but as you said, how often has that happened.  As we've seen proven over and over the majority of FQBs come from high picks, high picks usually go to really bad teams.  So as nice as it would be to win under that first deal given the developmental time of a QB and of a roster it's probably not happening and not a big negative on an organization 

It’s ideal to get it done on the rookie deal because of the extra roughly $23mil per year that you can use for key players.

Honestly, none of that matters if you can’t draft. If you CAN draft well, then you can afford a FQB and their huge contract while filling out the roster with cheap talent from all those rookie deals.

Its just the complete ideal scenario to have a cheap, stud QB and rock solid team around him that you can afford. Seahawks are a perfect example, Rams this year etc..

[Creepy Lurker]

5 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

This thread seemed to be off the rails for a bit there before Aten started spouting about opportunity cost and I became a bit more interested.  I didn't read all 7 pages, but did anybody complain about his lack of arm strength?  I get that everybody piled on Matt for saying Darnold's not the guy, but that is my main concern.  I see that as a big reason to be scared about his cold weather/wind performance.  He dropped some really nice balls into tight windows.  Almost all were incomplete.  All the people that think Kearse is worth $5M per might want to rethink that.  

BTW, not wearing a glove is not an indicator of anything as far as the cold weather.  Almost nobody wears gloves. 

Well, these last 8 games will tell us ALOT in regards to the weather. Sam seems like such a gamer that he will use this winter/offseason to adapt and become a full blown Yetti.

Time will tell but I think he will put an effort into adapting to the elements this year. He had no choice. Football is a cold weather sport for everyone since opponents can be anywhere. It’s a stupid thing to lose over so he’ll make sure he adapts. 

I agree with Kearse. His performance was dreadful last week. The price has come down for the Jets wideouts when we resign which is good. We have a lot of needs and need as much cap as possible to acquire NEW talent and add to what we already have. It’s going to be tough. 

[NoBowles]

This notion that a QB is either elite or not, in a vacuum, is a very flawed notion.

Elite QB's are a combination of many things. The right player, in the right situation, with the right coaches, the right development, and the right team around him.

They also usually don't pop onto the seen on Day 1 and look elite. 

We right now have the wrong coaches, the wrong players around and the wrong system around Darnold. Drafting a new QB next year without fixing the other problems gets you further away from an elite QB, not closer.

This notion is preposterous. If Darnold was an absolute disaster, fine, but he is far from that. Get the players around him and bring in a coach who understand 2018 NFL offense for God sakes and the kid has as good a chance to become Elite as any QB we can draft next year.

[JustInFudge]

41 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Exactly.  Keep hearing about needing to get it done under the first deal but as you said, how often has that happened.  As we've seen proven over and over the majority of FQBs come from high picks, high picks usually go to really bad teams.  So as nice as it would be to win under that first deal given the developmental time of a QB and of a roster it's probably not happening and not a big negative on an organization 

I'm not sure when and where this popular opinion started on the site.  I remember it was a big topic over the offseason during the Cousins debate but not sure where it originated from.  You cant argue the logic behind it; it's sound but as you say, the examples of it actually playing out are small.  Wilson 2x, Kaepernick, Flacco make the SB in the last 5 years?  Maybe that's where it comes from?  Because after that it's Brady and Big Ben and I cant think of another example in history, really.  Maybe Warner? 

[JustInFudge]

1 hour ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

Seven of the top ten quarterbacks in DVOA are guys who have been there for a decade. And that’s just the top ten; I mean, is the whole top third really elite? Do you want to have THE guy, or are you willing to settle for having A guy? I don’t especially care that nobody else looks at stuff this way yet.

So you think you should just ignore everything else and keep drafting a QB until you find the next Tom Brady? 

[Dunnie]

I think Darnold is the man... We need to give him an offensive minded coach, an Oline and a number one receiver.

That being said ...I am all for drafting another top tier QB as insurance and as trade capital.



Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[Philc1]

Sam has been the best of the rookie QBs so far

[Philc1]

48 minutes ago, NoBowles said:

This notion that a QB is either elite or not, in a vacuum, is a very flawed notion.

Elite QB's are a combination of many things. The right player, in the right situation, with the right coaches, the right development, and the right team around him.

They also usually don't pop onto the seen on Day 1 and look elite. 

We right now have the wrong coaches, the wrong players around and the wrong system around Darnold. Drafting a new QB next year without fixing the other problems gets you further away from an elite QB, not closer.

This notion is preposterous. If Darnold was an absolute disaster, fine, but he is far from that. Get the players around him and bring in a coach who understand 2018 NFL offense for God sakes and the kid has as good a chance to become Elite as any QB we can draft next year.

Sam literally had no WRs last Sunday.  Most qbs would have self destructed I thought Sam was not bad considering the circumstances 

[JustInFudge]

1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

This thread seemed to be off the rails for a bit there before Aten started spouting about opportunity cost and I became a bit more interested.  I didn't read all 7 pages, but did anybody complain about his lack of arm strength?  I get that everybody piled on Matt for saying Darnold's not the guy, but that is my main concern.  Draft a guy that high and give up that much capital and I want a cannon.  I don't see one.  I see that as a big reason to be scared about his cold weather/wind performance.  He dropped some really nice balls into tight windows.  Almost all were incomplete.  All the people that think Kearse is worth $5M per might want to rethink that.  

BTW, not wearing a glove is not an indicator of anything as far as the cold weather.  Almost nobody wears gloves. 

I'm confused.  Are you saying you're concerned or you're not?

Looks to me like he has plenty arm.  

And wasnt his pro day in pouring down rain?  I get cold is different but grippnig/throwing in the rain might is harder than the cold in a lot of ways.

[#27TheDominator]

4 minutes ago, JiF said:

I'm confused.  Are you saying you're concerned or you're not?

Looks to me like he has plenty arm.  

And wasnt his pro day in pouring down rain?  I get cold is different but grippnig/throwing in the rain might is harder than the cold in a lot of ways.

I don't really see plenty of arm.  I see what is probably "enough" arm, but it certainly doesn't seem like an arm to get excited about.  Concerned is kind of a strong word around here.  So far I think he looks fine, he just isn't what I expected.  I don't spend much time watching college QBs. I probably can better gauge 6th round WRs, than 1st round QBs

My observation would be that they should probably be stressing that he plant and rip the ball, because some of those things seem to be floating around forever. 

[greenwichjetfan]

16 hours ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

But what you have to keep in mind is that the opportunity cost of drafting a quarterback high is very low compared to the replacement cost of acquiring one on the open market and also that legit prospects are movable at a profit.

 

I agree that legit prospects are movable, but not necessarily in this scenario. The prospects being moved at profit historically have been later round picks. Matt Flynn, Jimmy G, Brissett, Cassel come to mind. The interesting thing here is that in each scenario, there was a solidified HoF FQB in place, and all of these QBs were taken in later rounds, thereby making it easier to trade for a profit. I can't think of a single first round QB who was moved at a profit - especially if that QB was taken in the middle of the first round which is where the Jets currently project to pick. The reason is that there is an appreciable depreciation of goods when a QB is taken that high and isn't able to prove his worth on a team without a solidified HoF QB - as would be the case in your scenario.

[JustInFudge]

6 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I don't really see plenty of arm.  I see what is probably "enough" arm, but it certainly doesn't seem like an arm to get excited about.  Concerned is kind of a strong word around here.  So far I think he looks fine, he just isn't what I expected.  I don't spend much time watching college QBs. I probably can better gauge 6th round WRs, than 1st round QBs

My observation would be that they should probably be stressing that he plant and rip the ball, because some of those things seem to be floating around forever. 

The good thing is, I think he's displayed a little bit of everything so far.  Lasers, long balls, short stuff, touch, timing, placement, different platforms, etc.  which is something to be excited about since he's only 21.  Idk, so many QB's are garbage when everything isnt perfect, even some of the greats.  Sam seems to have all of those tools to still make something happen when it's not and his arm is part of the reason he can pull it off.  Like, it's really hard to make some of the throws he makes on the run with just an adequate arm.  That's kind of more or a natural ability thing which IMO has the most to do with arm strength than anything else.

Probably a lot of words to agree he has plenty of arm or enough or whatever your preference of word is.  Definitely not a cannon but I'd still say it's a strength.

[#27TheDominator]

6 minutes ago, JiF said:

The good thing is, I think he's displayed a little bit of everything so far.  Lasers, long balls, short stuff, touch, timing, placement, different platforms, etc.  which is something to be excited about since he's only 21.  Idk, so many QB's are garbage when everything isnt perfect, even some of the greats.  Sam seems to have all of those tools to still make something happen when it's not and his arm is part of the reason he can pull it off.  Like, it's really hard to make some of the throws he makes on the run with just an adequate arm.  That's kind of more or a natural ability thing which IMO has the most to do with arm strength than anything else.

Probably a lot of words to agree he has plenty of arm or enough or whatever your preference of word is.  Definitely not a cannon but I'd still say it's a strength.

Yeah.  We will see.  I don't really care that he is 21.  We have him for 4-5 years.  After that we are hostage.  I hope we don't waste them ******* around with "Rebuild years 6-8: Electric Boogaloo." 

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, JiF said:

I'm not sure when and where this popular opinion started on the site.  I remember it was a big topic over the offseason during the Cousins debate but not sure where it originated from.  You cant argue the logic behind it; it's sound but as you say, the examples of it actually playing out are small.  Wilson 2x, Kaepernick, Flacco make the SB in the last 5 years?  Maybe that's where it comes from?  Because after that it's Brady and Big Ben and I cant think of another example in history, really.  Maybe Warner? 

The logic is great.  Win immediately with a QB prospect because after their rookie deal they'll cost you and if he his early you have extra money for other needs.  Makes sense but it's hardly a plan you can bank on.  One QB may needed 2 extra years to develop, what are you going to do?  Eventually, if you put together a good team that is in contention you'll have to pay.

[HelenOfTroy]

 

[southtown24th]

On 10/29/2018 at 10:23 AM, nyjunc said:

That's not brutal, it was a different time in this league.  Sam has 250 attempts, Sanchez had 364 for the season. Mark had a good rookie year

it was 2009-2012, not 1978.  Let's not fool around, Mark Sanchez sucked and Sam's overall trajectory is head and shoulders above that.  Sanchez's numbers SUCKED.

[UnitedWhofans]

Think Darnold is having a solid rookie campaign given circumtances. He's thrown more TDs than INTs. One big concern for him coming out of college was his abilty to hold onto the football because of small hands. That hasnt been a concern this year really