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Kevin Zeitler

BCJet

By BCJet
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Sperm Edwards

Sperm Edwards

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28 minutes ago, joenamathwouldn'tcry said:

Your assessment is based on a trade back with multiple picks.  If that's the case, it works.  My comment was based strictly at staying at #3 with a free agency approach to the fix.  With 6 picks, we can't draft two offensive lineman with so many other holes to address.  I also don't see Saffold as merely a two year fix, you'd need at least three seasons from him.  Same thing with Paradis/Morse.  If two years is the expectation, then why bother?  Since we have a new offensive line coach, I would trust his expertise to see if the Beachum, Winters, Shell triumvirate is salvageable, at least for the upcoming season.  You can't build Rome in one day, not unless you're the Colts with the benefit of a high #1 draft picks and 2 no. 2's in your arsenal.

Well I did say draft 1, likely in round 3, if we don't trade back from #3 overall. After that it depends on the draft itself rather than targeting the OL. I'm not going to worry about drafting a likely-backup/cut OL prospect in round 5 or 7 after that instead of the likely backup/cut player at another position. Plus if we did that it's not akin to using 6 picks on the OL this year. You aren't getting around these draft investments, and later OL picks aren't typically ready to start as rookies in September anyway.

Regarding the pickup of 30-32 year-old veteran FAs, there is no intention of having 2 new OL additions last just 2 years, but rather it's going with what's not uncommon from such a FA. If they last longer, of course I'd welcome it, but I'd also welcome a younger guy taking over by year 3 to clear up their space for a more significant upgrade elsewhere (just like the teams that let go of every desirable FA are doing). The problem is more that rebuilding the OL doesn't end there whether they last 2 years or 4. 

If the 2 we pickup are Paradis/Saffold, why bother with the exercise if we might only get 2 years out of them? Why also hit it so hard in the draft even if we pick them up?

Because this is the price a team signs up for paying after ignoring or treating the OL like an afterthought for so long. Plus after finally drafting a QB worth being excited about, I want to give Darnold every opportunity to reach his potential while he's still on his $8MM/year contract. I wouldn't sign on for any potential delays in his development in the same manner one delays upgrading at linebacker or CB2. It's far easier to temporarily plug & play other positions as we go along (like with Anderson and Claiborne last year). Not the least of which is because OLmen don't leave the field so we can't patch together lesser players based on game situations. Also unlike a temporary but expensive upgrade on the DL or at CB, it's an investment in our FQB that pays off not just now but in the future as well. 

The Rome in a Day still applies, except I'm looking at it from another angle. These OL picks and pickups are 100% necessary, whether you put them off for later or do them now. Except you can't delay Darnold's exposure the way you can delay finding another defender. You don't plan "We'll put off developing Darnold more in 2020 when we'll give him more protection, because I see a DT or CB opportunity in 2019 while we're not contenders." Darnold is on the field now, ready or not. Both his tackles - neither of whom is particularly good anyway - will be UFAs after the season.

What you give elsewhere you necessarily take from the OL, except the team's already done that for years on end: the OL has been starved for serious attention for long enough. The team has already drafted and signed DLmen and DBs and LBs up the ass. This is the situation a team is in when it drafts safeties with back to back high picks and fully whiffs on the next 2 (ok, pretty much every pick) after that for a recent offseason. We can't keep ignoring the very positions that protect a still-developing QB and then head into the following year's FA with 2 more holes and almost no pipeline started (or if we hit and go 1-for-1 with a middle round pick this year, then in 2020 that's a mere 4 OLmen making veteran NFL salaries). Also it's only two OL holes a year from now if Winters doesn't decline or get injured again, otherwise it's 3. 

Protecting the QB is not something I'd continue to delay in the draft as much as I'd delay upgrading DT or DB depth or another OLB (unless he's a unique young edge rusher you can't just get on demand later). So I'd leave Jenkins unchallenged at OLB for the year far more readily than leaving both Shell and Beachum unchallenged for the year in their final contract seasons. 

If you think it's unenviable to fill 2 gaping holes in the interior line in 2019, wait until the team's 2 holes are at both tackle positions heading into the 2020 offseason. There is a 0% chance the team will then wait until the draft to fill both positions so you're then talking about paying 4 and quite possibly 5 positions serious veteran money rather than pigeonhole their top draft pick to a specific OL position - prospect value be damned - to fill to such a hole. 

It won't simply wait. 

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Raideraholic

Raideraholic

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On March 7, 2019 at 7:26 AM, BCJet said:

Apparently the Browns are considering moving Kevin Zeitler (he plays RG) in order to free up cap room and a spot for Austin Corbett in the lineup.  Zeitler is 29, was PFF top ranked pass blocking guard in 2018 and makes $10 million this year, $10 in 2020 and $12 in 2021 with very little dead money after this year.

I can't imagine a player that would be a better use of short term, big money, then an excellent 29 year old guard.  We can either move Winters back to LG or cut him and fill that spot with a rookie or FA signing, but either way, Zeitler seems like the perfect player to offer a 5th round pick for to absorb his cap number.

The Browns just traded Kevin Zeitler to the Giants for De O Vernon .  

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BCJet

BCJet

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18 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

It's not "quite a hypothesis" so much as natural logic. If someone else is even worse - never mind if multiple others are even worse - and they give up pressure/sacks after 2 seconds on a given play, where Shell would have given it up after 2.2 seconds, then Shell may be given a + for the play. 

No, your other suggestion wouldn't also hold true. If you have evidence - or even a single memory, let alone with any regularity - of Shell abandoning his own assignment/area to take over someone else's then show it. But he only plays next to one player (Winters) who's better than Shell anyway. If Carpenter or Wesley Johnson was sucking it up, the notion that Brandon Shell was regularly sliding 5-10 yards to his left to improvise and help out is preposterous. 

And not for nothing, but as it is the RT lines up against the weaker edge rusher more often than not anyway. 

Look, he's not the worst tackle in football and I'm not saying he is. But we can and should do better for the team, and a year from now he's a UFA anyway.

Sign a G and C minimum, even if it means we're overpaying a little. Draft a G/T and a G/C. Going to have to repeat G/T drafting next year again because of the way the OL has been given such afterthoughts for 4 offseasons. But he is not veteran Damien Woody II and never will be. 

You do realize that your “simple logic” implies that NFL scouts/FO are unable to watch players individually and grade them on how they execute their assignment which is absolutely, as some would say, preposterous 

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JetFreak89

JetFreak89

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12 minutes ago, BCJet said:

Shefter saying the Giants will acquire Kevin Zietler for Olivier Vernon

So you're saying they wouldn't have accepted a 5th rounder for him? Hmmm. 

I do have to wonder what exactly Mac is doing at his desk right now,,,,,

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JetFreak89

JetFreak89

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2 minutes ago, BCJet said:

The giants also gave up a 4th round pick and got a 5th back. 

It sure seems like we could have offered something better then a pick swap and a grossly overpaid player for Zeitler

Picks, yes but player.....who would you have in mind? 

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joewilly12

joewilly12

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Browns acquired DE Olivier Vernon and a 2019 fourth-round pick from the Giants in exchange for RG Kevin Zeitler and a 2019 fifth-round pick.

The Browns are on the losing end of this trade, shipping a premier guard out for an overpaid pass rusher, but there's no doubt pass-rusher is a far more valuable position than interior offensive line. Zeitler was Pro Football Focus' top pass-blocking guard last year, but GM John Dorsey seemed motivated to move him. They want Austin Corbett to step into that void. Vernon was a big disappointment in New York, but maybe a change of scenery and a shift back to 4-3 base defensive end will help jolt his game. Vernon is theoretically still in the prime of his career.

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DJF71

DJF71

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6 minutes ago, JetFreak89 said:

So you're saying they wouldn't have accepted a 5th rounder for him? Hmmm. 

I do have to wonder what exactly Mac is doing at his desk right now,,,,,

Browns have a real GM and Jets do not.

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KINGDIRK

KINGDIRK

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12 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Meh on this trade for the Giants. Their OL is a bit better but their defense which was already bad to begin with now has no playmakers/anything reasonable

OV sucks. Zeitler is an excellent 29 year old OG.

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JetFreak89

JetFreak89

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17 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

THen why are the Browns trading him?

Because he was given a large contract by a prior administration and this one drafted someone that they view as his replacement. I would imagine they also think that Vernon could return to his once elite pass rushing capabilities so they feel the upside of Vernon is more valuable than whatever hit they take by moving Zeitler. 

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Jetsplayer21

Jetsplayer21

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2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Well that's not where I was going. Waiting until next year to address both tackle positions is a recipe for being cornered into signing still more FAs this time next year - if not outright extending the meh tackles we currently have - which would leave the team with 5 veteran-priced offensive linemen (merely 4 if we go 1-for-1 in the draft and that prospect shines as a rookie). 

In FA this year, they have little choice but to sign 2 FA linemen with one being a center (a ****ing good one, and it's one of the few good things Jets fans had grown accustomed to for 2 decades). Having outright holes at 2 positions right now, 2 more scheduled next year, the other an unnecessarily-larger contract that was itself due to waiting too long, and literally not one draftee from the past 2 years in a row coming up the pipeline to take over. It's all the residue of poor planning, but it is what it is right now. 

Sign 2, and prefer to also draft 2. Have to draft at least 1, but if we do trade down from #3 that number shoots to 2 as a bare minimum to draft. I'm not moving down from a top 3 overall prospect without adding (adding, not replacing) a 1st round OLman to the 3rd round one we would have drafted anyway.  

  • veteran center e.g. Paradis buys 2 seasons (more if we're lucky), if he's even still available
  • veteran G/T buys 2 seasons (more if it's James rather than Saffold)
  • trade down unless it's Bosa (going by others' assessments by excepting him alone), and draft a 1st round tackle who hopefully can handle blind side duties, but who could play G/RT as a rookie if he's not yet a major downgrade from Beachum; not to mention add another badly needed high pick to the arsenal.
  • draft a C/G or G/T prospect in round 3. Don't be shy about moving up a bit from #95 even if it costs our 5th, should someone unexpectedly last because of a run on other positions.

That's 4 OLmen in 1 offseason. That's what a team does when its OL has 2 holes, 2 upcoming holes next year, and it's deadly serious about building a top OL to protect the QB -- a QB in which it's already just invested the past 2 full seasons and 4 high draft picks. 

 

Do you think Mac finally submits and admits you can’t form a line with 6 and 7th round OL draft picks ? Lol.. we should trade back from 3 a tad and pick up a 2nd rounder. Aim to Take johan Williams in round 1, grab another in 2nd or 3rd.

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Jetsplayer21

Jetsplayer21

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4 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

Giants putting together a decent OL, Vernon was a shell of his old self. 

Bet they aren’t done yet. Prob look to sign and/or draft 1 in first 3 rounds. While Mac will laugh and say “ ha I can find the OL gems in the 6 round “?

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Sperm Edwards

Sperm Edwards

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17 minutes ago, BCJet said:

You do realize that your “simple logic” implies that NFL scouts/FO are unable to watch players individually and grade them on how they execute their assignment which is absolutely, as some would say, preposterous 

Wow, I'm not sure if you're truly unable to comprehend or are just making poor "gotcha" attempts to settle some old score I'm unaware of by flinging mud all over the place.

First you basically contend there is no rationale between the idea that a terrible lineman will surrender pressure/sacks more quickly than one who is better, even if that latter one isn't particularly good. A meh player is better than a terrible one. What of it? That doesn't therefore make him acceptable (let alone above average) other than in comparison to terrible players.

Then you confusingly suggest the RT's past subpar performance was hampered by a LG or a C. When I challenge you to back it up with either logic or examples, you don't answer and then rapidly change the subject to cover up. 

Now you're further putting words in my mouth that poor choices always represent an inability to see things. It "implies" nothing of the sort, and if you're going to quote me then at least put the correct words in quotes. 

 

Teams have needs and make choices on how to fill them. Sometimes they do a good job of it and sometimes a bad job. Sometimes they're willing to put up with one player's shortcomings but are unwilling to put up with another's. Or maybe they're willing to put up with either (or neither) and the money or draft cost is the deciding factor. Or maybe they just think they know more than everyone else and go with players others wouldn't touch for that high a pick or money. 

Some teams had Mayfield as the #1 QB; others Darnold; Buffalo and others Allen or Rosen. Does this translate to being "unable" to assess things, or just they liked different things they saw? Were the Jets "unable" to see all the flaws in Hackenberg, or did they think he could overcome them as a pro? I'm quite sure they saw what everyone saw, and drafted him anyway. 

I'd say the performance of the team, and state of the roster, speaks volumes as to the generally poor comparative judgment calls this team has made for years. Poor judgment as to which warts are ok and which aren't doesn't mean a team is "unable" to see them. 

Your move, girlfriend. 

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Sperm Edwards

Sperm Edwards

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7 minutes ago, Jetsplayer21 said:

Do you think Mac finally submits and admits you can’t form a line with 6 and 7th round OL draft picks ? Lol.. we should trade back from 3 a tad and pick up a 2nd rounder. Aim to Take johan Williams in round 1, grab another in 2nd or 3rd.

Perhaps, but I don't see him going OL in round 1 unless he trades down (nor should he, based on how others have the draft going). This year I'd be surprised if we stayed at #3, but he'll wait until we're on the clock to do it just in case Bosa is there. There are simply too many needs and too few players locked up. Even he must sense by now that veteran signings don't typically live up to hopes for the length of their veteran contracts. 

I don't know what goes on in his head honestly. Maybe he thinks all the other teams investing high picks in the OL are foolish and he knows better than all of them. 

Based on his past behavior, here's what is likely:

  • He'll sign two FAs on the OL because there are 2 glaring holes. Yeah big duh, but he doesn't head into the draft and pigeonhole a position, other than 2018 at QB after trading up but that was a unique circumstance. (This is also my concern with his lack of drafting OL; it then becomes a necessity for him to sign/extend/trade for veterans because there's no one coming up the pipeline.)
  • Assuming he trades down in round 1, and picks up just a 2nd rounder this year among his day 1-2 picks this year, the lowest OL selection he'll make in the draft is our early 3rd round pick. He might still take other positions in rounds 1-2 (WR, CB) but it really depends on who's there.

At the same time I certainly wouldn't be shocked if he saved OL picks for our late 3rd or after that, maddening as it would be. It's his pattern to rationalize that we don't have an outright hole at those positions right now, and then we'll plug one in a 2019 mid-rounder to start in 2020 to reduce the OL needs to one. He tried that at WR in 2017. Problem is he has to go 1-for-1 on a mid/late pick starting by year 2 for that to work out, and anything less means he's going to extend Shell after the season, look for another stopgap LT (perhaps bring back Beachum again), and then further put it off to the 2020 draft. 

I prefer he hits it hard, as we all saw the tremendous advantage afforded to the offense when we did have a killer OL 5 across a decade ago. It hid so many ills. I'd like to have that again, and I'd like it far more than I'd like a year head start on any young defender other than edge rusher since they're hardest to time availability and need.

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joewilly12

joewilly12

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Kevin Zeitler an instant upgrade to Giants’ weak offensive line

March 8, 2019 | 12:50pm

 
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Kevin Zeitler
Kevin ZeitlerNick Cammett/Diamond Images/Getty Images

Kevin Zeitler received a big surprise for his birthday. Shortly after the 29-year-old guard received birthday wishes from the Cleveland Browns, Zeitler was traded to the Giants in exchange for linebacker Olivier Vernon.

With Zeitler, the notoriously weak Giants offensive line now boasts a consistent and durable right guard, with a high ceiling. An All-American at Wisconsin, who was drafted by the Bengals in the first round of the 2012 NFL Draft, Zeitler spent five seasons in Cincinnati, before Cleveland made him the highest-paid guard in NFL history, signing the Waukesha, WI native to a five-year, $60 million contract.

Last year, Zeitler was graded by Pro Football Focus as the sixth-best guard in the NFL. Even better for Eli Manning, he was the top-rated pass-blocking guard in league and allowed just three sacks in his two seasons with the Browns.

Zeitler, who has three years remaining on his contract, hasn’t missed a start in four years.

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Philc1

Philc1

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3 hours ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Meh on this trade for the Giants. Their OL is a bit better but their defense which was already bad to begin with now has no playmakers/anything reasonable

The giants will draft Sweat or some other stud pass rusher at 6 while the jets whiff yet again

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Philc1

Philc1

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1 hour ago, joewilly12 said:

You are the Browns do you trade Zeitler for Vernon or Darron Lee the NY Jets don't have much firepower to trade players with anyone. 

Let’s see a good pass rusher who can play in a 3-4 or 4-3 or a shrimpy ILB who sucks against the run and is every tight end’s dream matchup

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14 in Green

14 in Green

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21 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I thought the Browns had a ton of cap room already this year, no?  

They do, and the rumor in Cleveland id they're going to make a huge move (trade) this offseason. Whether that happens, who knows? But Dorsey is thought of as the anti-Macc over there. The fans verdict on everything there is, "JD knows best!"

21 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

As strange as this might sound, there's a legit chance the Browns and the Jets are going to be 2 of the "power teams" in the AFC in the coming years.  So we better be careful with overpaying them in a trade.

A lot of people see the Chiefs, Browns and Colts becoming the new "AFC power teams."I don't know of anyone mentioning the Jets.

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