Im actually really glad...

[sec101row23]

1 minute ago, HawkeyeJet said:

Nick Bosa played a lot as a freshman and had 29 tackles 7 TFL and 5 sacks.  Not a whole lot better production than Williams as a freshman but in 3 more games. Completely different players but not setting the world on fire as a freshman is not uncommon

Agreed.   Especially at bigger programs that turn out a lot of NFL talent every year.  It’s not easy to see the field as a true freshman or even as a red shirt freshman.  Rarely are you given the starters job with tons of reps.  

[ZachEY]

19 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

He didn't start as a freshman but it's not as though he was non existent.  In 9 games as a freshman he had 20 tackles 6.5 TFL and 2 sacks in 9 games. 

I am with everyone questioning how all the pieces fit together, but Williams is a monster and the 1 year argument is a bit meh in my opinion.

I don't contest that he's a good football player.  But, "a monster" ought to force the coaches to get him on the field, no?  Do monsters and generational talents wait their turn?

[The Crusher]

5 hours ago, Villain The Foe said:

...that I fell asleep before the draft started and missed it live. (Began at 2am my time).

Q? Great prospect. However, when it comes to utilizing draft resources relative to what we have on the roster, this front office and ownership are grossly incompetent. Its now to the point that when this stupidity happens every year we must somehow convince ourselves that maybe he simply couldn't find the right exchange in a trade, which also shows his consistent inability to negotiate a trade when he has top prospects still available such as Q or top rated EDGE guys on the board. And speaking of EDGE, wasnt that what was said to be needed the entire time, which is why we tried to sign guys like Barr? Mike Maccagnan just drafted, for the 2nd time in his GM career, a DT with a top pick, over an edge player, a DT position which is one of the few strengths of this team which includes veteran depth AND a 25 year old developing 2nd year DT that we drafted just last off-season. 

Macc should have been fired after the end of the 2016.

Mike Maccagnan is a trash GM, and based on his draft history has proven to also be a trash scout. 

 

It was like getting punched in the stomach to watch. 

[Scoop24]

2 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

I don't contest that he's a good football player.  But, "a monster" ought to force the coaches to get him on the field, no?  Do monsters and generational talents wait their turn?

When you recruit like Alabama yes they do . 

[ComfortablyNumb]

No one wanted to give up anything to trade up for. I don’t know about you but In business I don’t allow myself to get fleeced for the sake of making a deal. It’s unfortunate but that’s how it played out this year. If Murray had slipped he was the only QB teams would have paid premium value to move up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ZachEY]

19 minutes ago, Scoop24 said:

sh*t happens I’m pretty sure I can find bad games from any player you think jets should of took. 

He doesn’t need to be Donald or average 12 sacks a year of whatever unrealistic expectations you guys wanna put on him to justify the pick . If he is as good as Fletcher Cox or Geno Atkins that pick is well worth it IMO ..

I also sure hope that "sh*t happens" and "bad games" being the most important one against the best team is purely coincidence.

[ZachEY]

12 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

Nick Bosa played a lot as a freshman and had 29 tackles 7 TFL and 5 sacks.  Not a whole lot better production than Williams as a freshman but in 3 more games. Completely different players but not setting the world on fire as a freshman is not uncommon

And, my wife would tell you I was simultaneously trying to get my son to fall asleep and yelling at the TV when San Fran was on the board to please take Nick Bosa.

[ComfortablyNumb]

I don't contest that he's a good football player.  But, "a monster" ought to force the coaches to get him on the field, no?  Do monsters and generational talents wait their turn?

Have a look and tell me you don’t see a monster....

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ZachEY]

4 minutes ago, Scoop24 said:

 When you recruit like Alabama yes they do . 

Usually wouldn't ask a question like this without already knowing the answer, but what generational talent was ahead of him, and how is he doing now?

[Scoop24]

1 minute ago, TeddEY said:

I also sure hope that "sh*t happens" and "bad games" being the most important one against the best team is purely coincidence.

At this point I feel like you complaining just too complain . I get u don’t like the pick and I’m not even gonna try to change your mind that. I would love to know who you would preferred at 3 so we can revisit this in a year . 

[ZachEY]

Just now, ComfortablyNumb said:

Have a look and tell me you don’t see a monster....

 

 

 



 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Oh stop.  Everyone's highlight reels look good.

[ZachEY]

Just now, Scoop24 said:

At this point I feel like you complaining just too complain . I get u don’t like the pick and I’m not even gonna try to change your mind that. I would love to know who you would preferred at 3 so we can revisit this in a year . 

Assuredly, I don't care what you think of my motivation.

Oliver or Trade Down, maybe Josh Allen (maybe).

[ComfortablyNumb]

Oh stop.  Everyone's highlight reels look good.

 

Yeah but that’s not really a highlight reel. It’s film breakdown of his game and Voch Lombardi will always mention the negatives of the players. He couldn’t come up with one for Q. If you look At the video almost first 6 minutes is him vs LSU alone. How many players can you get 5-6 minutes from one game of pure consistent domination ?

 

 

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[Scoop24]

2 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Usually wouldn't ask a question like this without already knowing the answer, but what generational talent was ahead of him, and how is he doing now?

Well considering 7 DL where drafted out of Alabama the past 3 years . 2 1st rd picks and 2 2nd picks . I’m willing to say he had to pay his dues first before being handed a starting job regardless how talented he is . 

[Charlie Brown]

32 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

He didn't start as a freshman but it's not as though he was non existent.  In 9 games as a freshman he had 20 tackles 6.5 TFL and 2 sacks in 9 games. 

I am with everyone questioning how all the pieces fit together, but Williams is a monster and the 1 year argument is a bit meh in my opinion.

Thank you...

The question that has to be asked did folks knock the pick actually watch Q play?

If you did then you can't question the PICK AT ALL!!!!!

The issue is MAC didn't find a way to drop back to get more accumulative picks That is the issue.

To knock the talent is just plain silly!!!

[HawkeyeJet]

5 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Usually wouldn't ask a question like this without already knowing the answer, but what generational talent was ahead of him, and how is he doing now?

Williams ended up playing the spot vacated by Da'ron Payne.  13th overall pick in 18 by Washington

[ZachEY]

2 minutes ago, ComfortablyNumb said:

Yeah but that’s not really a highlight reel. If you look At the video almost first 6 minutes is him vs LSU alone. How many players can you get 5-6 minutes from one game of pure consistent domination ?

 

I hope he's a super star.  No doubt.  I do think he'll be a good football player.  My issue, once again, isn't with Williams, really.  As I've stated, he seems like a good player and an exceptionally good kid.  My issue is as always with Macc.  He desperately tries to get a deal done, he can't.  So, he takes another consensus "Best Player in the Draft" despite other teams passing on him, and at a position where we really didn't even have a need and that, unless you're Aaron Donald/Warren Sapp, you aren't going to make a huge impact on the outcome of the game.  We draft to extend Macc's career, not to win a championship.  It's plainly obvious.

[ZachEY]

3 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

Williams ended up playing the spot vacated by Da'ron Payne.  13th overall pick in 18 by Washington

So, while you can't correlate perfectly, I suppose the question is, how would we feel about Da'ron Payne's NFL production from QW this year.  5 sacks, 6 TFL, and 1 FF.

[Scott Dierking]

Just now, TeddEY said:

Assuredly, I don't care what you think of my motivation.

Oliver or Trade Down, maybe Josh Allen (maybe).

I am admittedly late in the game on evaluating Williams, as I am just too lazy now to do pre-draft analysis. I am now in the barrel of post draft justification. Again, a lazy trait.

I guess Alabama had initially him pencilled in as  a DE. That was his recruiting label. Based on having a couple of interior lineman drafted in 2018, they had him add 20 pounds of bulk and had the intentions of moving him inside. They were not even handing him the job in 2018 (hmmmm.....). But, as I read things, he just outworked and out-hustled the competition.

I get the supposed "outrage" on the pick. The chalk is not pretty, particularly when it seems to check a box already checked. As I saw his body on TV last night, it cast some doubts in my mind as well. It just appeared soft.

As I read things now (again belatedly), I wonder if they can put him on the edge some. It appears that the motor is relentless.

The worry part of things, as you bring up, are play time, as well for me, he is obviously surrounded by talent at Alabama. How much did those factors help?

Thanks for listening.

[NYs Stepchild]

40 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

I hope you see the hilarious irony of this post.

It would be hilarious if I weren't so close to the situation. 

Don't forget how much cap space it costs to pay high 1st round picks that play a lower priced position. 

The Redskins were in position to draft Burns and Sweat at 16 and 26. Keep an eye on how this plays out. 

[ZachEY]

3 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

I am admittedly late in the game on evaluating Williams, as I am just too lazy now to do pre-draft analysis. I am now in the barrel of post draft justification. Again, a lazy trait.

 I guess Alabama had initially him pencilled in as  a DE. That was his recruiting label. Based on having a couple of interior lineman drafted in 2018, they had him add 20 pounds of bulk and had the intentions of moving him inside. They were not even handing him the job in 2018 (hmmmm.....). But, as I read things, he just outworked and out-hustled the competition.

 I get the supposed "outrage" on the pick. The chalk is not pretty, particularly when it seems to check a box already checked. As I saw his body on TV last night, it cast some doubts in my mind as well. It just appeared soft.

 As I read things now (again belatedly), I wonder if they can put him on the edge some. It appears that the motor is relentless.

The worry part of things, as you bring up, are play time, as well for me, he is obviously surrounded by talent at Alabama. How much did those factors help?

Thanks for listening.

Honestly, is it his body, or that he looks like he's 14?  Because, he definitely looks like he's 14.

[Villain The Foe]

 

1 hour ago, BurnleyJet said:

Snap, I thought fook it’s SOJ. That’s 5 DT’s taken in the 1st round in 8 years! - I was willing to give Macc the benefit of the doubt. Not now, he’s in Idzik territory for me. The Bills get the most impactful DT for me at 9.

Watch the idiot scramble to get back into round 2. He’s blown it, considering who’s still on the board.

This entire Maccagnan experience has been such an utter failure, and twice the Jets refused to fire this guy. 

5 DT's in 8 years? Someone should be arrested for this. And I absolutely agree, when it comes to potential The Bills got not just the most impactful DT, but possibly the best player if he reaches that potential. Never in a million years would I have thought that the Jets would be this impossible when it comes to the draft, I watched the Draft this morning on NFL gamepasss and when the Jets were on the clock two things flashed across the screen which absolutely confirms that, #1. the level of failure Macc has produced when having 4 complete years to build a team

And #2. The insanity by doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again in the past, and having the genius idea that IF YOU DO IT AGAIN, things will change.  

Seriously, how sad is that. How do you draft defense in the 1st round 9 straight times before the Daronld pick, and think that the best thing to do after drafting Darnold is to do the EXACT SAME F'ING THING you did after drafting Sanchez in 2009 which was the last time we drafted offense before this ridiculous run of defensive draft picks only to rank 25th in the league? 

Talk about a love/hate relationship

[HawkeyeJet]

Just now, TeddEY said:

So, while you can't correlate perfectly, I suppose the question is, how would we feel about Da'ron Payne's NFL production from QW this year.  5 sacks, 6 TFL, and 1 FF.

Fair point.  I will say I think Payne is more of a true NT than QW, but that's where they both played at Bama.

I wouldn't be super happy with that production, but if Leonard, Quinnen and Anderson can all produce between 7-9 sacks then I'd say whatever this experiment is was a success. 

[Matt39]

28 minutes ago, ComfortablyNumb said:

 

Yeah but that’s not really a highlight reel. It’s film breakdown of his game and Voch Lombardi will always mention the negatives of the players. He couldn’t come up with one for Q. If you look At the video almost first 6 minutes is him vs LSU alone. How many players can you get 5-6 minutes from one game of pure consistent domination ?

 

 

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How much of that can be attributed to Alabama fielding an all star team every season? QWill looks good on tape, sound technique etc. The issue is he's an at best "good" athlete and using the 3rd pick on a guy who's not in any top percentiles for athleticism generally doesnt work out for interior pass rushers. Williams will be a starter, I just question the use of resources that high and his ability to get sacks and TFL's in the NFL.

Aaron Donald, Fletcher Cox, Grady Jarrett were all better athletes. 

[Villain The Foe]

29 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

It was like getting punched in the stomach to watch. 

Macc better pull of the draft of his life with these two 3rd round picks. 

[Scott Dierking]

4 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

How much of that can be attributed to Alabama fielding an all star team every season? QWill looks good on tape, sound technique etc. The issue is he's a at best "good" athlete and using the 3rd pick on a guy who's not in any top percentiles for athleticism generally doesnt work out for interior pass rushers. Williams will be a starter, I just question the use of resources that high and his ability to get sacks and TFL's in the NFL.

Aaron Donald, Fletcher Cox, Grady Jarrett were all better athletes. 

As I posted earlier in this thread in an article, his "bounce rate" and QB hurries (I know, I know), were off the charts.

[The Crusher]

2 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Macc better pull of the draft of his life with these two 3rd round picks. 

I knew it was coming, called it in the draft thread the second Arizona QB was announced. Didn’t dull the pain. Kid will probably be a good player but damn we need so much better than good at this point. 

[BurnleyJet]

6 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

This entire Maccagnan experience has been such an utter failure, and twice the Jets refused to fire this guy. 

5 DT's in 8 years? Someone should be arrested for this. And I absolutely agree, when it comes to potential The Bills got not just the most impactful DT, but possibly the best player if he reaches that potential. Never in a million years would I have thought that the Jets would be this impossible when it comes to the draft, I watched the Draft this morning on NFL gamepasss and when the Jets were on the clock two things flashed across the screen which absolutely confirms that, #1. the level of failure Macc has produced when having 4 complete years to build a team

And #2. The insanity by doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again in the past, and having the genius idea that IF YOU DO IT AGAIN, things will change.  

Seriously, how sad is that. How do you draft defense in the 1st round 9 straight times before the Daronld pick, and think that the best thing to do after drafting Darnold is to do the EXACT SAME F'ING THING you did after drafting Sanchez in 2009 which was the last time we drafted offense before this ridiculous run of defensive draft picks only to rank 25th in the league? 

 

 

Talk about a love/hate relationship. 

Mo Wilkerson.

Quentin Coples.

Sheldon Richardson.

Leonard Williams.

Quinnen Williams.

[Charlie Brown]

47 minutes ago, MindOverMatter said:

You mean like the Jets? Or am i missing the obvious sarcasm this early in the AM.

I think many missed the CLEAR SARCASM of the Post!!!  

[Villain The Foe]

1 hour ago, Scott Dierking said:

@TeddEY On a quick serach, I could not find a stat for percentage of plays, but did find this interesting direct comparison to Oliver. I don't know

 

A STATISTICAL COMPARISON OF OUTLAND WINNERS QUINNEN WILLIAMS AND ED OLIVER

January 16, 2019 · by marksimonsis · in College Football · Leave a comment 

BY BRYCE ROSSLER

For the first time in six years, the NFL Draft will feature two Outland Trophy winners, both of whom figure to be selected early. But, this occurrence is especially strange because both players in question, Houston’s Ed Oliver and Alabama’s Quinnen Williams, are defenders (the award is given to the best interior linemen, on offense or defense).

The last time that two defensive winners of the trophy were in the same draft was 1978, which featured Notre Dame’s Ross Brown and Texas’s Brad Shearer. And perhaps that’s fitting since the defensive line is considered the strength of this class, a group that Oliver and Williams still manage to stand out from.

For most of last offseason, Oliver was billed by some as the surefire top selection in the class, but that was before Williams ascended to the throne with a dominant 2018 campaign. Whereas the former has been a known commodity for some time now, the latter seemingly came out of nowhere. Both of Williams’ running mates at Alabama, Isaiah Buggs and Raekwon Davis, were certainly attracting more attention in preseason. But, once he hit the field, Williams quickly became the focus of opposing teams.

The Crimson Tide sophomore ranked first in run stuff rate (i.e. solo tackles for non-positive yardage) among 339 defensive tackles with at least 100 run snaps. His rate of 6.8 percent was about a full percentage point higher than the next-best interior player, South Alabama’s Tyree Turner (5.8). And in case you were wondering – his Outland predecessor ranked third with a rate of 5.3 percent.

That difference is even further accentuated when you consider that teams aimed runs towards Williams on 19 percent of their rushing attempts, as opposed to 29 percent of the time for Oliver. And when teams did run at Williams, he caused the ballcarrier to bounce the play 43 percent of the time – nearly ten-plus percentage points more often than Oliver did (34 percent).

Williams was an even bigger difference-maker as a pass-rusher, boasting a hurry rate of 13.8 percent. That dwarfs the second-highest figure, which belongs to San Jose State’s Boogie Roberts, by 2.8 percentage points. Oliver once again ranks fourth with a still-excellent hurry rate of 10.5 percent. But, to give you an idea of just how impactful Williams was, his hurry rate outpaced that of several edge rushers who will merit first round consideration in April, namely: Clemson’s Clelin Ferrell (12.1 percent), Florida State’s Brian Burns (11.5), Mississippi State’s Montez Sweat (10.5), and Michigan’s Rashan Gary (9.5).

While the NFL will present a new set of challenges for Williams, his hurry rate this year was comparable to Aaron Donald’s at the NFL level. This doesn’t mean that he’ll be able to maintain that productivity on Sundays, but it does serve to illustrate his level of collegiate dominance. (If anything, it should serve to illustrate how futile the search for the next Aaron Donald is)

The bottom line is that both players project to be three-down difference-makers early in their careers. The advanced metrics seem to favor Williams, but an argument could be made that the already-established and obviously-talented Oliver suffered from a junior-year drop off as Jadeveon Clowney and Myles Garrett once did, and that he was capable of imposing his will more often. At any rate, statistics can only begin to contextualize a player’s performance, and film is what tells the full story.

A more traditional perspective on each (and more advanced stats like these) can be found in the Football Rookie Handbook (details to come on that in the near-future).

 

 

That's crazy. 

[Warfish]

6 hours ago, Villain The Foe said:

...that I fell asleep before the draft started and missed it live. (Began at 2am my time).

Q? Great prospect. However, when it comes to utilizing draft resources relative to what we have on the roster, this front office and ownership are grossly incompetent. Its now to the point that when this stupidity happens every year we must somehow convince ourselves that maybe he simply couldn't find the right exchange in a trade, which also shows his consistent inability to negotiate a trade when he has top prospects still available such as Q or top rated EDGE guys on the board. And speaking of EDGE, wasnt that what was said to be needed the entire time, which is why we tried to sign guys like Barr? Mike Maccagnan just drafted, for the 2nd time in his GM career, a DT with a top pick, over an edge player, a DT position which is one of the few strengths of this team which includes veteran depth AND a 25 year old developing 2nd year DT that we just drafted last off-season. 

Macc should have been fired after the end of 2016.

Mike Maccagnan is a trash GM, and based on his draft history, he's has proven to also be a trash scout. 

 

Macc is the penultimate example of a GM with no desire to take risks with high draft picks.  He takes whomever is "consensus" regardless of their use to us or need or if we already have five of that position, and it's been keeping him employed.  Even his one risk (Darnold) he overpayed to get to the spot and had to luck into Darnold dropping past the lolGiants.

I have no beef with our new Beef Q.W.  

He's just not very useful to us for building a winning team, as I see it.  We're not going to be an elite top-5 Defense because of him, so what we got him then?  Adams, Williams, Williams, Lee, Trumaine, that MLB guy, so much capital thrown at this Defense......and I bet it finishes where it has often lately, 20 or worse.  It's bad team building.

Darnold IS our chance.  We should have built around him.  Hockenson (a massive mean blocker AND a serious pass catching threat) was the pick.  Yes, even at #3.  He would make a material difference to this team scoring points, protecting Darnold, and creating mismatches vs. Defenses.

Imagine a play, Darnold drops back, and we have Enunwa, Crowder, Bell coming out the backfield, and both Herndon and Hockenson block the release routes?  Darnold could/should be able to throw all day with those mismatches...presuming he is protected.

But no.  We ares till building this team to win/lose 9-6 score games.

 

 

[Villain The Foe]

11 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

I knew it was coming, called it in the draft thread the second Arizona QB was announced. Didn’t dull the pain. Kid will probably be a good player but damn we need so much better than good at this point. 

I just read a piece that @Scott Dierking posted in here explaining how much of a freak Williams is. 

The kid has the ability to be a star, maybe even a superstar. But it pains me to watch, and I mean this seriously, that the only time the Jets can ever make a trade is to trade up (Sanchez, Darnold) and to give up a ton to do it, only to then watch as the Jets dont even invest in them with young talented offensive players. And its upsetting to see how Macc can never find "value" in trading down, but he can get bent over a barrel when trading up because "its a Quarterback". 

But the kicker, what really frustrates me to no f'ing end with this guy, is that he ends up drafting a defensive tackle, a position which usually is our strength of the team, as well as having alot of money allocated to it. 

Im so done with Mike Maccagnan. I'M DONE with this dude. 

[Savage69]

59 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

I don't contest that he's a good football player.  But, "a monster" ought to force the coaches to get him on the field, no?  Do monsters and generational talents wait their turn?

Well Brady couldn't win the starting job in college but won the Bowl in his first season playing in the NFL.. College is a different standard for most teams..

[Xtina]

1 hour ago, billo83 said:

This. People here are acting like Mac turned down some great offer to move down. If he was offered pennies on the dollar, would these people still want to trade down? I'm sure Williams had a big say in who was drafted at that spot, and unlike Bowles and company actually knows what he is doing. Let's see what happens the rest of the draft before going off the cliff.

The market is what it is for any particular year. Last year our 6th was more valuable than this year’s third. It was a buyer’s market. The draft value chart is only a guideline. We way overpaid last year according to it. 

And I love how people “know” what offers Mac got and refused 

[Wonderboy]

6 hours ago, Villain The Foe said:

...that I fell asleep before the draft started and missed it live. (Began at 2am my time).

Q? Great prospect. However, when it comes to utilizing draft resources relative to what we have on the roster, this front office and ownership are grossly incompetent. Its now to the point that when this stupidity happens every year we must somehow convince ourselves that maybe he simply couldn't find the right exchange in a trade, which also shows his consistent inability to negotiate a trade when he has top prospects still available such as Q or top rated EDGE guys on the board. And speaking of EDGE, wasnt that what was said to be needed the entire time, which is why we tried to sign guys like Barr? Mike Maccagnan just drafted, for the 2nd time in his GM career, a DT with a top pick, over an edge player, a DT position which is one of the few strengths of this team which includes veteran depth AND a 25 year old developing 2nd year DT that we just drafted last off-season. 

Macc should have been fired after the end of 2016.

Mike Maccagnan is a trash GM, and based on his draft history, he's has proven to also be a trash scout. 

 

But he makes a bad azz cup of coffee.