Rooney Rule: Minority Coaches getting shut out yet again.

[southparkcpa]

14 minutes ago, pdxgreen said:

  The world isnt some open field where your free to realize every dream you had just because you were good enough. 

It's fairly close.  I grew up on LI, a poor town, Brentwood. High minority school. Was turned down by most good colleges.

I recognized fairly quickly from the bruise on my nose that many doors were closed to me.  I adjusted, worked hard and took the longer path.

 

I have tons of clients making 200 to 500K without a college degree. They are plumbers, electricians, and some do work Ive never heard of until I met them. 

90 percent of where we are is the decisions we make but YES certain doors will be closed in many situations. 

I make a VERY good living and do tax work for MANY guys that make 7 figures.  I recognize that from Brentwood NY, getting to Goldman Sachs is near impossible. I had never heard of Asset Management until I went to college.   That said...  I don't fault an imperfect world. I simply choose a path and for me, I did not take no for an answer.  I took what I wanted by working 3 jobs at the same time from the age of 22 to 24 while going to night school at Pace University.

 

 

[Jetsfan80]

12 minutes ago, pdxgreen said:

Please dont bring up that old hag.  The worst apologist for capitalistic excess.  Thousands of peoples dreams have been destroyed by petty BS, racism, nepotism and a thousand other isms.  The world isnt some open field where your free to realize every dream you had just because you were good enough. More low born achievers probably realized their dreams from career guided "kindness" and small acts of random charity... something that woman was completely against.

Yep.  Just look at the Suburban "redlining" that occurred post-WWII.  Certain communities (IE black communities) were shut out from favorable home loans.  The "green  zone" tended to be more white communities, whereas the "red zone" was more black communities.  The green zone got the favorable loans.  The red zone didn't.  The green zone had more opportunities for wealth than the red zone.  That directly impacted the ability to succeed for future generations.

Growing up in the suburbs, I can say with full confidence I had advantages that others did not have.  This whole "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" stuff is, for the most part, a myth.

[New York Mick]

16 minutes ago, jgb said:

Here’s the problem with the new school NFL fan’s mindset:

Jim Fisher fails, he’s a bad coach.

Hue Jackson fails, he wasn’t given the right opportunity

Other side 

[ZachEY]

Just now, Warfish said:

Luck?

Or generational hard work and sacrifice so future generations within that family line could have better lives?

What I have today, as an immigrant here whose family came to America with literally nothing but me, is purely because of teh hard work of my parents to provide me with a better life than they had.  And I built (and sacrificed) upon what they did too, so future generations will have it better than I did.

In a few years will somebody be whining about my great grandkids having a leg up, and ignore four generations o blood, sweat and sacrifice that put them there?

I'll tell you this, there is a huge difference between how newly arrived immigrants act vs. how long established populations act, in broad general terms.

That my great-grandparents worked harder than yours, or vice versa, is, yes, in fact luck.  You and I did nothing at all to deserve that.

That doesn't diminish it, and it's great that it happened, but it's not your accomplishment.  It's luck that you, personally, were born into that situation.

[southparkcpa]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Full confidence I had advantages that others did not have.  This whole "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" stuff is, for the most part, a myth.

So sad.....  I can show you my client base. Millionaire after Millionaire with very little education.

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, JTJet said:

I dont agree. 

Smart companies dont build their staff based off of % of racial demographics. They hire the best people they believe will get the job done.

But again, the best people aren't always getting the jobs.  That's been shown time and again.   And again, 14 % of fired white head coaches get a 2nd chance as a HC, compared to only 7 % of their fired black counterparts.  That's open discrimination.  

And again, I'm not saying 68 % of the coaching field needs to be black coaches.  But there's clearly something wrong when only 12 % of a majority black league are black HC's, and you can count the number of black OC's and QB Coaches in the pipeline on one or 2 hands at any given time.  

[Jetsfan80]

7 minutes ago, southparkcpa said:

So sad.....  I can show you my client base. Millionaire after Millionaire with very little education.

Sure.  There are a lot of highly successful people who come from the underdog background.  That's what churns out a lot of successful people.  I read Gladwell's David and Goliath and Outliers.  I get a lot of that stuff.  But a poor upbringing and education is not all there is to the story. 

There's a difference between growing up poor and low education and having those elements PLUS coming from communities where there's a school to prison pipeline and a poor family support network.  When generation after generation of your family tree has been sent to prison, and there are precious few work opportunities in the community you grow up in, its very hard to see a light at the end of the tunnel.  

Is it possible to escape even that?  Absolutely.  But it's not the same as the types of millionaires you're talking about.  People with felonies on their record don't tend to find opportunities for economic growth.

[ZachEY]

15 minutes ago, jgb said:

Here’s the problem with the old school NFL billionaires’ mindset:

Jim Fisher fails, he’s a bad coach.

Hue Jackson fails, “minority coaches just aren’t ready yet for the big jobs.” 

Interesting comparison.

Jeff Fisher got his first HC gig 10 years after his first coaching gig.  Hue Jackson took 24 years.

Jeff Fisher's first HC stint was 15 years, after going 7-9 in his first season.  Hue Jackson's first stint was 1 year, after going 8-8.

Jeff Fisher got his 2nd HC job after 1 year away from coaching.  Hue Jackson coached for 4 more seasons at the assistant level until getting a 2nd opportunity.

These situations look pretty different with a bit of detail, no?

[prime21]

The fact that this thread has gone 5 pages without being locked says kudos to the posters for not getting out of hand with their thoughts and opinions.

Or the mods are sleeping.  lol

[Gen X Jet]

8 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

But again, the best people aren't always getting the jobs.  That's been shown time and again.   And again, 14 % of fired white head coaches get a 2nd chance as a HC, compared to only 7 % of their fired black counterparts.  That's open discrimination.  

And again, I'm not saying 68 % of the coaching field needs to be black coaches.  But there's clearly something wrong when only 12 % of a majority black league are black HC's, and you can count the number of black OC's and QB Coaches in the pipeline on one or 2 hands at any given time.  

What are you advocating for?  Should we have racial quotas on the field?

[southparkcpa]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

Sure.  There are a lot of highly successful people who come from the underdog background.  That's what churns out a lot of successful people.  But a poor upbringing and education is not all there is to the story. 

There's a difference between low education and coming from communities where there's a school to prison pipeline and a poor family support network.  When generation after generation of your family history has been sent to prison, its very hard to see a light at the end of the tunnel.  

No question..but after 5 generations who is to blame? Someone has to change it and enabling the poor  hasn't worked for 50 years. I grew up on welfare, free lunch, dad died when I was a kid. All the goverment help was OK but nothing changed my life better than my 1st job at the local deli.

Seriously, read the Pareto principle. The science behind the 80/20 rule. Not just the rule, but the science behind it.   A CARMAX lot for example , of 10 sales guys... 2 make 80 percent of all the commissions. This has been going on for centuries. Centuries of 20 percent make the money. Why? They work harder, smarter and take no prisoners.    I guarantee you if I moved to Wilmington, Id build a CPA firm and make in excess of XXXK in less than 3 years while there are many who can't make 100K.   

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, JTJet said:

From what I personally read, I dont agree that institutional racism even exists.

Breitbart?

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, southparkcpa said:

No question..but after 5 generations who is to blame? Someone has to change it and enabling the poor  hasn't worked for 50 years. I grew up on welfare, free lunch, dad died when I was a kid. All the goverment help was OK but nothing changed my life better than my 1st job at the local deli.

I'm not trying to justify Welfare.  I think in many examples it does more harm than good.  

But after 5 generations of getting beaten down, you're going to blame each of those 5 generations for not breaking the cycle?  Individual responsibility is important.  But so is looking at the systems that make this stuff VERY difficult.  

[PS17]

We need a Rooney rule for white running backs. White people make up 62% of the American population yet there is only one starting white running back in the league. This discrimination must stop. 

[southparkcpa]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I'm not trying to justify Welfare.  I think in many examples it does more harm than good.  

But after 5 generations of getting beaten down, you're going to blame each of those 5 generations for not breaking the cycle?  Individual responsibility is important.  But so is looking at the systems that make this stuff VERY difficult.  

I don't blame systems ... only the weak do.  If I were a young minority and wanted X, I would make it my life mission to get that X. I would throw myself in that profession, start at the bottom, outwork everyone until you couldn't ignore me.  Sort of like Brandon. An overnight success after 10 years of counting helmets, getting on planes, running errands for coaches etc.  Look at Steve Wilks. I'd say he took a HC job too soon. He didn't train as a DC long enough.

[RutgersJetFan]

14 minutes ago, prime21 said:

The fact that this thread has gone 5 pages without being locked says kudos to the posters for not getting out of hand with their thoughts and opinions.

Or the mods are sleeping.  lol

That covert racism doesn't use vituperative terms doesn't mean that the passivity of it all doesn't hold meaning. Plethora of fairly disgusting statements in this thread, that's for sure.

[Jetsfan80]

12 minutes ago, southparkcpa said:

I don't blame systems ... only the weak do.  If I were a young minority and wanted X, I would make it my life mission to get that X. I would throw myself in that profession, start at the bottom, outwork everyone until you couldn't ignore me.  Sort of like Brandon. An overnight success after 10 years of counting helmets, getting on planes, running errands for coaches etc.  Look at Steve Wilks. I'd say he took a HC job too soon. He didn't train as a DC long enough.

 

Your Uncle and brother are in prison.  The only job in your community is drug dealing.  Your Dad disappeared on you before you started making memories.  And every piece of evidence you've witnessed tells you that there are people who hate you, or at least mistrust you, purely for the color of your skin. 

It's nice to imagine a world where any kid can overcome those circumstances.  Some do.  Many succumb to learned helplessness.  Have some compassion for those people, and don't call them "weak".  Not everybody grows up being told by somebody that they can do just about anything, and actually believe it.  Because not everybody has someone in their life telling them they can.

[Spoot-Face]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Your Uncle and brother are in prison.  The only job in your community is drug dealing.  Your Dad disappeared on you before you started making memories.

I don't like this "choose your own story". Can I have another one?

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, Spoot-Face said:

I don't like this "choose your own story". Can I have another one?

My wife wakes up crying about once a month worrying about what would happen to her brother if he got pulled over by a white cop.  And her family actually did pretty well for themselves, thanks to her Dad's service in Vietnam and years of working for IBM.

For those people of color who did NOT grow up with advantages, and did not end up financially successful, I'll be damned if I'll hear someone call that kind of person "weak".  

[BUM-KNEE]

50 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

Lots of questions there.  How many black QBs should the NFL have?  How many white DEs should there be?  Why do mediocre white QBs continue to be rostered but a black QB needs to be even better to have a chance, even as a backup?  Does a white DE have to be elite like Bosa or JJ Watt in order to play while the league is full of average or below DEs who are black?  What about position coaches?  What about RBs? Why did we cut Danny Woodhead???? 

Because Woodhead was short, just like Dortch the Torch.

Short people never get a fair shake....

[Jetsfan80]

25 minutes ago, prime21 said:

The fact that this thread has gone 5 pages without being locked says kudos to the posters for not getting out of hand with their thoughts and opinions.

Or the mods are sleeping.  lol

It will.  It always does.  But it doesn't always HAVE to.  

[Jetsfan80]

4 minutes ago, Spoot-Face said:

I don't like this "choose your own story". Can I have another one?

 

Ask @Nolder for another D&D game!

[Jetsfan80]

28 minutes ago, Gen X Jet said:

What are you advocating for?  Should we have racial quotas on the field?

More minority QB Coaches.  

No racial quotas.  Just remove the discriminatory barrier and give everyone a fair shake.  

[y2k8]

I mentioned this before in threads about why you should never just "let a coach finish out the season"

NFL franchises are the only billion dollar companies that make the single most important organizational hiring decision in a matter of days.

It's lunacy.

If you have ever have landed or been in the running for a big job with a major company, you're likely aware of the multi-month process it takes from the beginning of a search until the person ultimately comes on board. 

I guarantee you that the heads of marketing or CFOs at each one of these teams had to go through a lengthy process where scores of candidates were vetted, etc.

But for HC - They interview guys they have never met before and make them an offer in a matter of hours.

So not only is this a bad sytem to actually identify and hire the right person for the job - it essentially ensures that only a small pool of people are actually interviewed for that Januarys job openings and they will entirely consist of the usual suspects and friends of the family.

The whole process is broken and the diversity issue is a byproduct of that dysfunction.

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, y2k8 said:

I mentioned this before in threads about why you should never just "let a coach finish out the season"

NFL franchises are the only billion dollar companies that make the single most important organizational hiring decision in a matter of days.

It's lunacy.

If you have ever gotten or been in the running for a big job with a major company, you're likely aware of the multi-month process it takes from the beginning of a search until the person ultimately comes on board. 

I guarantee you that the heads of marketing or CFOs at each one of these teams had to go through a lengthy process where scores of candidates were vetted, etc.

But for HC - They interview guys they have never met before and make them an offer in a matter of hours.

So not only is this a bad sytem to actually identify and hire the right person for the job - it essentially ensures that only a small pool of people are actually interviewed for that Januarys job openings and they will entirely consist of the usual suspects and friends of the family.

The whole process is broken and the diversity issue is a byproduct of that dysfunction.

 

The only thing I might counter with is that teams are likely doing research and having backdoor conversations about potential coaches long before they decide to fire their current one.  I don't think the timing of the firing has much to do with when the coaching search actually starts.

I do support the notion of firing HC's midseason though.  Mostly because you can instruct the interim coach to play the young guys and hopefully tank for a higher pick.  The Jets' failures to do that with both Rex and Bowles had a direct, negative impact on both the team AND our draft slot.  Both should have been fired during the Bye week in 2014 and '18, respectively.  

[BallinPB]

As a black man I'm not a fan of the Rooney Rule.  If you are qualified then they will hire you because every owner wants to win.  We don't need a rule in 2020 to force owners to interview minority coaches.  

I actually take it as derogatory to black people.  

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, BallinPB said:

As a black man I'm not a fan of the Rooney Rule.  If you are qualified then they will hire you because every owner wants to win.  We don't need a rule in 2020 to force owners to interview minority coaches.  

I actually take it as derogatory to black people.  

Yep.  It was a blatant attempt to make the league seem inclusive and to avoid lawsuits.  Nothing more.  

Some would say guys now get interviews that they wouldn't have previously.  The obvious retort is those guys should have been getting interviewed anyways on their merits.  Guys like Bieniemy and Kris Richard are clear and obvious HC candidates.

[ZachEY]

Just now, y2k8 said:

I mentioned this before in threads about why you should never just "let a coach finish out the season"

NFL franchises are the only billion dollar companies that make the single most important organizational hiring decision in a matter of days.

 It's lunacy.

If you have ever gotten or been in the running for a big job with a major company, you're likely aware of the multi-month process it takes from the beginning of a search until the person ultimately comes on board. 

 I guarantee you that the heads of marketing or CFOs at each one of these teams had to go through a lengthy process where scores of candidates were vetted, etc.

 But for HC - They interview guys they have never met before and make them an offer in a matter of hours.

So not only is this a bad sytem to actually identify and hire the right person for the job - it essentially ensures that only a small pool of people are actually interviewed for that Januarys job openings and they will entirely consist of the usual suspects and friends of the family.

 The whole process is broken and the diversity issue is a byproduct of that dysfunction.

One of the issues with hiring NFL coaches, is that it's a situation where the interviewer typically knows far less than the interviewee.  Head coaches aren't being hired by more experienced HC, like you or I may be hired by someone more senior in our field.  They're hired by people who may be former scouts, or accountants, or frankly, just rich people, who couldn't do the Xs and Os if their life depended on it.  So, it begs the question, what does Christopher Johnson really ask Adam Gase?  You may not like Gase, but if you're being fair, you must acknowledge that he knows significantly more about football than Johnson.

[Spoot-Face]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

My wife wakes up crying about once a month worrying about what would happen to her brother if he got pulled over by a white cop.  And her family actually did pretty well for themselves, thanks to her Dad's service in Vietnam and years of working for IBM.

For those people of color who did NOT grow up with advantages, I'll be damned if I'll hear someone call that kind of person "weak".  

Just take solace in the fact that one day you and your wife will make beautiful bi-racial babies, and that's the sort of thing that keeps dumb, backwards, and racist dooshbags awake at night, as they listen to "I'm dreaming of a white Christmas" on repeat.

You're doing god's work, buddy.

Excelsior.

[Spoot-Face]

6 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

More minority QB Coaches.  

No racial quotas.  Just remove the discriminatory barrier and give everyone a fair shake.  

To be honest, we're not gonna attain true equality until a lot of old people die of natural causes.

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, TeddEY said:

One of the issues with hiring NFL coaches, is that it's a situation where the interviewer typically knows far less than the interviewee.  Head coaches aren't being hired by more experienced HC, like you or I may be hired by someone more senior in our field.  They're hired by people who may be former scouts, or accountants, or frankly, just rich people, who couldn't do the Xs and Os if their life depended on it.  So, it begs the question, what does Christopher Johnson really ask Adam Gase?  You may not like Gase, but if you're being fair, you must acknowledge that he knows significantly more about football than Johnson.

 

They also rely heavily on what OTHER GM's and coaches say about the guy.  Where possible, they ask everyone from the receptionist at the team facility to current and former position coaches under the coach in question about what they think about the guy.  

But that just lends itself to more nepotism, as guys are just recommending their friends.  

[y2k8]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

The only thing I might counter with is that teams are likely doing research and having backdoor conversations about potential coaches long before they decide to fire their current one.  I don't think the timing of the firing has much to do with when the coaching search actually starts.

I do support the notion of firing HC's midseason though.  Mostly because you can instruct the interim coach to play the young guys and hopefully tank for a higher pick.  The Jets' failures to do that with both Rex and Bowles had a direct, negative impact on both the team AND our draft slot.  Both should have been fired during the Bye week in 2014 and '18, respectively.  

The minute an owner starts to look at potential candidates to replace the current HC, you probably have about 4 hours before it's being reported in the media. The NFL is a gossip tsunami.

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, Spoot-Face said:

To be honest, we're not gonna attain true equality until a lot of old people die of natural causes.

So you're saying old, rich, white billionaires practice some level of discrimination?  No way.  

[ZachEY]

3 minutes ago, Spoot-Face said:

Just take solace in the fact that one day you and your wife will make beautiful bi-racial babies, and that's the sort of thing that keeps dumb, backwards, and racist dooshbags awake at night, as they listen to "I'm dreaming of a white Christmas" on repeat.

You're doing god's work, buddy.

Excelsior.

The babies could look like him though...

[Spoot-Face]

1 minute ago, TeddEY said:

The babies could look like him though...

oh dear god, no