Rooney Rule: Minority Coaches getting shut out yet again.

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

lol good call. nothing you could write would help that poster anyway.

I like TeddEY.  No reason to disrespect him over this difference of opinion.

I just don't want to get bogged down in this kind of sociological/political debate, it too often turns angry and ends up in bad feelings and division.

Plus, I respect Max's rules on Politics.  It's one of JN's best aspects. 

1 hour ago, TeddEY said:

I struggle to understand the disagreement.  You believe you earned your parents, grandparents, or lineage in some way?  The biological truth, as I learned, and saw first hand by becoming a parent x2, is that two people had sex, and you came out 40 weeks later.  Whether they were good, bad, loving, honest, abusive, rich, poor, and so on, had nothing to do with you.  So, the only thing I might be missing here isn’t politics, it’s a biology lesson wherein you establish how the child has choice in his parents?

Luck implies something was not earned, but was gifted through no effort whatsoever in an undeserving or random way.

Use of that term, combined with the distinction you draw between an individual and that individuals family, is the cause of my disagreement.  

Yes, for the individual child, being born to X/Y was not a choice.  It was also not "lucky" nor random.  The parents of that child made a decision (with purpose or without) to create that child, that specific child (as you say, the combination of genetic material from the two parents).  In point of fact, that child could in no other way exist without those specific parents and that decision.  There is no luck involved whatsoever.

In the same vein, there is no luck involved in generational economic pass-along.  Either the previous generation made choices to improve the starting point of future children, or they do not.  It's not luck (an unearned gift), it's a conscious decision of one generation to provide for the next.  You know, like Social Security but without the Governmental authority.  

In addition, you appear to remove all agency from the child itself as to it's outcome.  A child born into the depths of abject poverty (in the United States) can still succeed.  Is it harder, absolutely, for a myriad of reasons.  But it's far from impossible.  It's a much deeper conversation that can (or should) be had here, but once again, I'll point to the differences I see in immigrant families once they get here, and equally poor and/or uneducated families long here, and their respective outcomes.  That isn't luck, IMO.

 

 

.....and now we're WAYYYYYY off topic.  Rooney Rule.  It exists.  Is it good?  Who knows, sure, no, maybe.

[Biggs]

2 hours ago, Warfish said:

Absolutely not.  No for-profit Sports league should have such an exemption.

So we agree that NFL owners are in a unique position to not operate on a normal capitalist market that rewards excellence and punishes mediocrity.

That doesn't mean the abundance of White HC who suck are an indication that they are getting hired and promoted over equally or better qualified white coaches.  It doesn't mean White HC will tend to promote the guys they come up with through the ranks who may happen to be more like them than not.  

What's interesting about the NBA is once the league opened itself up to International players the amount of white players increased dramatically.   That suggests to me an institutional racism that's pervasive in US society that goes back a very long time.  

[JTJet]

4 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

But people involved in football is not demographically mirrored to the census, nor are the people deciding who will rise.  The point may be best illustrated by 80s data suggesting that a white HC is 2x as likely as a black HC to get a 2nd chance.

As for the Fire Chief, it’s still the wrong question.  I’m not arguing pro-quota, nor pro-Rooney rule.  I want the best fire chief.  What I’m arguing, which I tried very hard to both thoroughly and politely engage you in in the 1st post I responded to you, is that the question of who’s the best fire chief is subject to a number of biases which will afford some better opportunities to prove they are the best Fire Chief than others.  Again, no one is saying the black guy is the best candidate, but I won’t hire him.  They’re not giving the black guy the same opportunity to become or prove he’s the best candidate.  I struggle to understand why anyone would think this is impossible, especially in a group of 70-year-old rich white men.

Lastly, I am very open to changing my mind.  To me, the highest form of intelligence is the ability to learn and adapt as new information becomes available.  So, good data would compel me.  But, my ‘views’ are formed on this topic, as on others, with information that is imperially based, often peer reviewed, and holds up to criticism.  It’s not formed on opinion pieces masquerading as fact.  So, again, I LOVE to learn, so I have no problem being proven wrong, if someone has the receipts, but the bar is high, because I actually do my homework.

I never said it was impossible. In fact I said it's even likely that it does indeed happen. But to think it is completely systemic in the entire NFL and the majority of owners think this way? That's just irresponsible. 

Again, if Dungy or Tomlin became available this year as head coaches, they would have gotten whatever job they wanted, a large portion of teams may have even let go of white coaches to make room for them. 

If an owner is willing to dole out 60 Million dollars to a black quarterback, do you truly think he isnt willing to do the same for a coach that he thinks is the guy he wants?

Coaching has a completely different skill set than being a player, generally requires higher education, different personality, and traits that a large portion of the players may/may not have. From what I can gather, every single HC in the NFL has a BA or above. 

How many players essentially get free rides in college and use it as a semi pro league? A whole lot. How many players leave school to declare early and dont graduate? A whole lot. Fix this, and I guarantee you see a great deal more of minority coaches. 

Maybe these guys bomb their interviews, maybe their personalities clash with the owners, Bieniemy doesnt have the best background, maybe that had something to do with it. The answer is vastly more complicated than pointing to a group of white men and yelling racists. 

[TNJet]

Until the minority coaches start proving they're worth the hire, I won't worry too much about the Rooney rule.

[JTJet]

20 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Yeah but Breitbart? 

As opposed to Huffington Post? 

I never said I get information from either. He just didnt have an answer to any of my questions, so he basically yelled "Nazi"  

[JTJet]

33 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I choose B.  But that doesn't factor in all of the variables.  What if there are unwritten policies/biases in place preventing firefighters of color from getting the opportunity to prove themselves and move up the ladder (no pun intended) to, say, Assistant Fire Chief?  If those practices are proven to be taking place, then you're never rarely going to have a situation where the firefighter of color as the experience, resources and training necessary to BECOME a fire chief in the first place.  

THAT'S what we're talking about here.  There are unwritten biases in place that prevent a pipeline of black/minority QB Coaches and OC's.  

Thank you. 

This is exactly my point. THIS is an opinion. This isnt factual. Buts/Ifs dont fly. 

You dont know that's happening, you assume it is because it supports your opinion..

The day its explicitly proven that the NFL is systematically preventing minority hires, we can talk. 

[Warfish]

15 minutes ago, Biggs said:

So we agree that NFL owners are in a unique position to not operate on a normal capitalist market that rewards excellence and punishes mediocrity.

That doesn't mean the abundance of White HC who suck are an indication that they are getting hired and promoted over equally or better qualified white coaches.  It doesn't mean White HC will tend to promote the guys they come up with through the ranks who may happen to be more like them than not.  

What's interesting about the NBA is once the league opened itself up to International players the amount of white players increased dramatically.   That suggests to me an institutional racism that's pervasive in US society that goes back a very long time.  

The issue of "who plays football" is an exceedingly complicated one, rife with socio-political and socio-economic factors.  a worthy discussion, but a sensitive one.

[JTJet]

I'm also going to take a minute to point out that we all want the same thing here, both in football and life, and wish the same for everyone else. 

Day to day there are multitudes of different topics we agree on and argue against. 

@TeddEY@Jetsfan80

We are never going to agree on this particular issue, nor will we ever change each others minds. 

But that also doesnt mean I dislike you and that doesnt change the fact the we all are together as miserable Jets fans. 

[Biggs]

19 minutes ago, Warfish said:

The issue of "who plays football" is an exceedingly complicated one, rife with socio-political and socio-economic factors.  a worthy discussion, but a sensitive one.

Agreed and this isn't the place for it.  I just read your argument as a classic capitalist argument where survival of the fittest would tend to equal the playing field for obvious reasons.  Clearly the NFL is not just a monopoly, the owners aren't even in competition with each other they are partners.  Survival of the fittest along with the cost for new entrants makes the NFL uniquely able to promote a fairly closed club when it comes to management.

Charlie Finley when he owned the Oakland A's once said that all contracts should be 1 year deal and everyone is a free agent every year.  That scared the crap out of the other owners.

It's not just about players it goes up and down the line.

 

 

[Biggs]

40 minutes ago, JTJet said:

 

 

[New York Mick]

Should every team have to have someone that’s openly gay, a women, asian, Polynesian etc. Where does it stop? The best person should get the job/spot no matter what. 

[Biggs]

35 minutes ago, JTJet said:

If an owner is willing to dole out 60 Million dollars to a black quarterback, do you truly think he isnt willing to do the same for a coach that he thinks is the guy he wants?

The QB is contracted just like the lion in the zoo.  What the players get paid is irrelevant.  They owners are self protected by a cap.  The accountant in the Zoo is a horse of a different color.   

[Jets Voice of Reason]

6 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

The rule was good, but the way it was created was not, and the spirit of the rule certainly isn't being followed.  

In general, setting a mandatory rule with no incentives built in is a recipe for failure in business. People will loophole it to death and in this case the stipulations are easily circumventable. 

However, the NFL needs more programs like the Bill Walsh intern minority program (Hines Ward for us) with a structure in place to actually train and give opportunities for visibility to minority coaching candidates.
 

The former player base is a natural coaching pool anyways, if you had a structure in place where every team could carry an additional offensive and defensive coach who was a former player and whose pay was subsidized by the league, i’d be interested to see if the results would be better. 

[jetstream23]

I would hire a one-legged transvestite Martian if he/she could get the Jets to 9 or 10 wins....Rooney rule or not.

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, JTJet said:

Thank you. 

This is exactly my point. THIS is an opinion. This isnt factual. Buts/Ifs dont fly. 

You dont know that's happening, you assume it is because it supports your opinion..

The day its explicitly proven that the NFL is systematically preventing minority hires, we can talk. 

If it shows up in the data, that means its happening.

Again.  14 % of white NFL HCs who get fired end up getting second HC chances, compared to 7 % for their black counterparts.  That's as clear as day discriminatory.  

Meanwhile, I'd have to run numbers on this, but I imagine you'll see that a significantly higher % of white RB/WR/Defensive Coaches get chances to be QB Coaches than black/minority coaches.  Hue Jackson brought this up when he was hired by the Bengals.  

These articles are a good start for my latter point:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/31/sports/football/rooney-rule-nfl-coach.html

https://theundefeated.com/features/how-long-will-black-qbs-have-to-endure-racist-double-standards/

https://www.bannersociety.com/2017/8/9/20726457/black-head-coaches

 

Quote

Recently, the main avenue to head coaching jobs in the N.F.L. has been experience guiding an offense, a role in which minorities have been underrepresented. Among the 32 teams this season, there were two African-American offensive coordinators and 10 defensive coordinators.

 

Quote

Richard Lapchick, the director of the Institute for Diversity and Ethics in Sport, issued his annual report on the hiring of women and minorities in the N.F.L. and gave the league its lowest grade since the institute began tracking this data in 2004.

Quote

So while 28 percent of management jobs at the league headquarters belong to people of color, the representation among the teams’ top front-office executives is 11 percent, a statistic that earned a failing grade from Lapchick.

 

Quote

This might not bar black applicants from coordinator positions, but it sure doesn’t help those who didn’t play QB. The Power 5 has only 13 black offensive coordinators, making black OCs less than half as frequent as black players.

 

Quote

The study found that, after controlling for certain factors, black quarterbacks were 38.5% more likely than white quarterbacks to change positions.

 

[southparkcpa]

11 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

I would hire a one-legged transvestite Martian if he/she could get the Jets to 9 or 10 wins....Rooney rule or not.

that to me, to change a bit, is our problem.  We have always been satisfied with 9 or 10 wins.   I want to see a a management team that drafts and develops for a deep run of success.   

[Jetsfan80]

37 minutes ago, New York Mick said:

Should every team have to have someone that’s openly gay, a women, asian, Polynesian etc. Where does it stop? The best person should get the job/spot no matter what. 

Again, the best coaches aren't getting the job.  Black coaches with stronger resumes than their white counterparts are getting passed over for opportunities.  That's the point. 

There doesn't need to be a quota.  Nor do lesser black/minority coaches need to get the job ahead of the superior white candidates.  There just needs to an equal playing field and a removal of barriers for minority coaches.  

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, TNJet said:

Until the minority coaches start proving they're worth the hire, I won't worry too much about the Rooney rule.

But they are.  lol. 

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, JTJet said:

Maybe these guys bomb their interviews, maybe their personalities clash with the owners, Bieniemy doesnt have the best background, maybe that had something to do with it. The answer is vastly more complicated than pointing to a group of white men and yelling racists. 

The sample sizes are large enough to separate out those variables.  

[Jets Voice of Reason]

33 minutes ago, New York Mick said:

Should every team have to have someone that’s openly gay, a women, asian, Polynesian etc. Where does it stop? The best person should get the job/spot no matter what. 

That’s not the issue at hand in my opinion. The best person should get the job, that is indisputable. 
 

The point is plainly, why are white guys getting the job most of the time if this is the case? Are white guys just naturally superior head coaches? I think it has more to do with the fact that the NFL is a brotherhood type of league where networking determines the coordinators in the league, who are ty

The NFL isn’t that different than corporate  America or academics in this respect. Socioeconomical differences make an enormous impact on the achievement gap. 

[BornJetsFan1983]

2 hours ago, TeddEY said:

Common sense isn’t a real thing.  It’s an ambiguous construct created by biases and preconceived notions.  I can also provide receipts on this one... but yeah, I’m the one beyond help.

common sense isnt a real thing? really...haha hey man agree to disagree...

[Jets Voice of Reason]

56 minutes ago, New York Mick said:

Should every team have to have someone that’s openly gay, a women, asian, Polynesian etc. Where does it stop? The best person should get the job/spot no matter what. 

That’s not the issue at hand in my opinion. The best person should get the job, that is indisputable. 
 

The point is plainly, why are white guys getting the job most of the time if this is the case? Are white guys just naturally superior head coaches? I think it has more to do with the fact that the NFL is a brotherhood type of league where networking determines the coordinators in the league.

The NFL isn’t that different than corporate  America or academics in this respect. Socioeconomical differences make an enormous impact on the achievement gap. 

[Embrace the Suck]

[carlito1171]

Who was the Giants Rooney rule candidate? 

[JTJet]

29 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

14 % of white NFL HCs who get fired end up getting second HC chances, compared to 7 % for their black counterparts.  That's as clear as day discriminatory. 

This is a gigantic leap of logic. This is about as far from "clear as day" as it gets. 

There are many determining factors as to why those coaches got other opportunities or not, just to name a few, 

- How badly their first stint went. 

- How many coaching vacancies were open, when they actually came around to interviewing again. 

- How many other hot candidates they were up against. 

- Did they rebound well as a coordinator after they were let go.

- Did they interview well. 

- Did their skillset (offense/defense) fit what the new teams were looking for. 

 

All the minority head coaches fired,

Didnt get a second chance (yet).

Bowles. Joseph. Jackson. Wilks.

46-83 combined. Every one was terrible. 

Got second chances,

Rhodes. Edwards. Dungy. Rivera. Green. Shell. 

350-280 combined. Every one was good. 

See the difference? This tells us that if you perform, you are more likely to get rehired. Not because you are black or white. 

The only one I would consider an outlier being Marvin Lewis. He should definitely be coaching. 

If Tomlin were let go this year (as speculated earlier in the season) He would have been hired by the end of Black Monday, before anyone else. 

"Clear as day" lol

[BurnleyJet]

I don’t care what colour my head coach is:-

1) Can he coach?

2) Can he develop players?

3) Can he make adjustments?

4) Does he play modern NFL football?

That is all!

[New York Mick]

38 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Again, the best coaches aren't getting the job.  Black coaches with stronger resumes than their white counterparts are getting passed over for opportunities.  That's the point. 

There doesn't need to be a quota.  Nor do lesser black/minority coaches need to get the job ahead of the superior white candidates.  There just needs to an equal playing field and a removal of barriers for minority coaches.  

How do you know? Are you in the meeting when they’re deciding who to interview?

[New York Mick]

53 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

If it shows up in the data, that means its happening.

Again.  14 % of white NFL HCs who get fired end up getting second HC chances, compared to 7 % for their black counterparts.  That's as clear as day discriminatory.  

Meanwhile, I'd have to run numbers on this, but I imagine you'll see that a significantly higher % of white RB/WR/Defensive Coaches get chances to be QB Coaches than black/minority coaches.  Hue Jackson brought this up when he was hired by the Bengals.  

These articles are a good start for my latter point:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/31/sports/football/rooney-rule-nfl-coach.html

https://theundefeated.com/features/how-long-will-black-qbs-have-to-endure-racist-double-standards/

https://www.bannersociety.com/2017/8/9/20726457/black-head-coaches

 

 

 

 

 

What were the records of coaches that were fired then rehired, what were their stats etc

[JTJet]

40 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Again, the best coaches aren't getting the job.  Black coaches with stronger resumes than their white counterparts are getting passed over for opportunities.  That's the point. 

There doesn't need to be a quota.  Nor do lesser black/minority coaches need to get the job ahead of the superior white candidates.  There just needs to an equal playing field and a removal of barriers for minority coaches.  

You're assuming way too much here. There are way more variables than just a strong resume.

Just a little background so you see where I'm coming from here, I do this for a living, so it's a pretty passionate topic. I have about 100+ employees and I hire corporate level leaders on a weekly basis for multiple companies. 

You can have the best resume in history, but I'm looking for much deeper and frankly MORE. Are you personable? Do you speak eloquently? Do I think your potential is a worthy investment? Do I feel like you can lead? Do you have a spotty background? Do you have a well thought out vision? How are your critical thinking skills?

I've left people in the dust who have had amazing resumes, but they bombed their interviews or seemed disingenuous. 

On the flip side, I've hired people with no resume at all, but they aced the interview and seemed like a great company fit. 

Rarely have I made a hiring mistake in 15 years. I can reasonably assume these owners are viewing the candidates in the same light. 

[JTJet]

11 minutes ago, New York Mick said:

What were the records of coaches that were fired then rehired, what were their stats etc

I just posted those stats and records. Scroll up a bit. 

[TNJet]

54 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

But they are.  lol. 

Who? Besides Tomlin and Dungy? 

Bowles?

Flores?

Lewis?

Vance Joseph?

Ray Rhodes?

Leslie Frazier?

Perry Fewell?.....they all sucked, and ended up fired for (Flores is next) good reason. Am I wrong?

[section314]

3 minutes ago, JTJet said:

You're assuming way too much here. There are way more variables than just a strong resume.

Just a little background so you see where I'm coming from here, I do this for a living, so it's a pretty passionate topic. I have about 100+ employees and I hire corporate level leaders on a weekly basis for multiple companies. 

You can have the best resume in history, but I'm looking for much deeper and frankly MORE. Are you personable? Do you speak eloquently? Do I think your potential is a worthy investment? Do I feel like you can lead? Do you have a spotty background? Do you have a well thought out vision? How are your critical thinking skills?

I've left people in the dust who have had amazing resumes, but they bombed their interviews or seemed disingenuous. 

On the flip side, I've hired people with no resume at all, but they aced the interview and seemed like a great company fit. 

Rarely have I made a hiring mistake in 15 years. I can reasonably assume these owners are viewing the candidates in the same light. 

No resume' needed. Any interest in a position of Football Operations for a New York Area based pro football team?

[JTJet]

15 minutes ago, New York Mick said:

What were the records of coaches that were fired then rehired, what were their stats etc

Here you go. 

These are the FIRST stint records of these coaches. 

Didnt get a second chance (yet).

Bowles. Joseph. Jackson. Wilks.

46-83 combined. Every one was terrible. 

Got second chances,

Rhodes. Edwards. Dungy. Rivera. Green. Shell. 

350-280 combined. Every one was good.

[Biggs]

49 minutes ago, Jets Voice of Reason said:

That’s not the issue at hand in my opinion. The best person should get the job, that is indisputable. 
 

The point is plainly, why are white guys getting the job most of the time if this is the case? Are white guys just naturally superior head coaches? I think it has more to do with the fact that the NFL is a brotherhood type of league where networking determines the coordinators in the league, who are ty

The NFL isn’t that different than corporate  America or academics in this respect. Socioeconomical differences make an enormous impact on the achievement gap. 

What makes the best person?  Very subjective.  If an owner feels consciously or unconsciously uncomfortable with a black GM or HC doesn't that make a black GM or HC candidate less attractive to that owner?

The NFL has spent a fortune on developing the combine to look at metrics when hiring.  They also use personality and intelligence tests.  More and more analytics are driving play calling and scheme.  I suspect owners don't use these when they make their son the GM or head of football operations.  

[New York Mick]

Just now, JTJet said:

Here you go. 

These are the FIRST stint records of these coaches. 

Didnt get a second chance (yet).

Bowles. Joseph. Jackson. Wilks.

46-83 combined. Every one was terrible. 

Got second chances,

Rhodes. Edwards. Dungy. Rivera. Green. Shell. 

350-280 combined. Every one was good.

I seen it. He was comparing white and non white coaches. Do you have stats on white coaches that were rehired over Joseph, Bowels, Jackson and Wilks?